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Thursday, November 21, 2019

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 11-21-2019

El Paso Herald, November 21, 1919:

Although the [New York] major league clubs probably will continue only one more year to share the Polo grounds, it is likely that the St. Louis, Philadelphia and Boston clubs may use one field in each of those cities next season to reduce overhead expenses.

While the interest in baseball is increasing in St. Louis, Philadelphia and Boston, conditions are such as to necessitate curtailment of expenses. Baseball men connected with the clubs that operate in those cities are convinced that in view of the success with which the Giants and Yankees operated together at the Polo grounds the scheme would go well in their towns.

The ground share in New York didn’t go nearly as well as this article would have you believe. The Giants spent years trying to kick the Yankees out of the stadium before the Yanks left in 1923.

As for the other cities: The Browns and Cardinals shared Sportsman’s Park from 1920 until the Browns left for Baltimore. The Phillies and Athletics shared Shibe Park from 1938-1954, and the Braves and Red Sox shared Fenway in 1915 (and swapped parks for some World Series games of the 1910s based on which team’s stadium had the higher capacity).

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 21, 2019 at 11:23 AM | 21 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 21, 2019 at 11:25 AM (#5902931)
On one hand, the center fielder on today's Birthday Team seems pretty good. On the other hand, how good can the second-best outfielder born on November 21 in Donora, Pennsylvania really be?

C: Charlie Bennett (38.8 WAR)
1B: Hank Blalock (13.5 WAR)
2B: Andy High (12.1 WAR)
3B: Freddie Lindstrom (28.3 WAR)
SS: Dick Schofield The Younger (18.8 WAR)
LF: Stan Musial (128.2 WAR)
CF: Ken Griffey Jr. (83.8 WAR)
RF: Tommy McCraw (8.6 WAR)

SP: Bobby Mathews (55.1 WAR)
SP: Warren Hacker (13.8 WAR)
SP: Mike Mason (5.1 WAR)
SP: Scott Terry (3.1 WAR)
SP: Park Swartzel (0.7 WAR)
RP: Mark Eichhorn (19.1 WAR)

Manager: Paul Richards
Fun names: Ziggy Hasbrook, Pinky Jorgensen, Augie Swentor, Barbaro Canizares, Tripp Cromer
-5.1 career WAR: George Scharein (-5.1 WAR)
Not that one: Charlie Gibson
Not that one: Henry Youngman
   2. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 21, 2019 at 11:37 AM (#5902935)
LF: Stan Musial (128.2 WAR)
Hall of Famer. Of course!
CF: Ken Griffey Jr. (83.8 WAR)
Hall of Famer. No doubt!
SP: Bobby Mathews (55.1 WAR)
Not a Hall of Famer. Yeah, sounds right. Looks like he fell a bit short. Nice career, though.
C: Charlie Bennett (38.8 WAR)
Not a Hall of Famer. Well, duh.
3B: Freddie Lindstrom (28.3 WAR)
Not a...oh, wait. What?


   3. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 21, 2019 at 11:53 AM (#5902942)
Lindstrom wasn't a super player, but at least they rewarded him for his long caree...wait. What?
   4. PreservedFish Posted: November 21, 2019 at 12:02 PM (#5902945)
Who would you draft first, Lindstrom or Baines?
   5. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 21, 2019 at 12:10 PM (#5902947)
Baines. At least he's still alive.
   6. Itchy Row Posted: November 21, 2019 at 12:19 PM (#5902956)
Lindstrom's knees are probably better.
   7. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 21, 2019 at 12:26 PM (#5902960)
White Sox sign Grandal for 4/73
(and dfa palka)
   8. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: November 21, 2019 at 12:42 PM (#5902967)
C: Charlie Bennett (38.8 WAR)

Not a Hall of Famer. Well, duh.


But probably should be. Bennett had the poor fortune to be an exact contemporary of superduperstar Buck Ewing, at a time when 90 games at catcher would lead the league most years.

1880s bWAR:
Bennett 34.0 (7.2 / 650 PA)
Ewing 32.8 (6.4 / 650 PA)
   9. Itchy Row Posted: November 21, 2019 at 12:53 PM (#5902972)
Charlie Bennett had 4310 PA. Other than Mookie Betts, who I assume will get the 700 PA he needs to pass Bennett, nobody has had more WAR than Bennett in fewer PA. The only hitters to retire with fewer than 5000 PA and more WAR are John McGraw (45.7 WAR in 4940 PA) and Charlie Keller (43.1 in 4604.)
   10. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: November 21, 2019 at 01:01 PM (#5902975)
Grif and Musial are both left-handed too.

Ziggy Hasbrook, despite being dear to my heart, is actually the worst Ziggy to have played MLB. Ken Sears, who played sixty war-time games for the Yankees, was also known as 'Ziggy' and was worth 0.6 WAR to Hasbrook's 0.0.
   11. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 21, 2019 at 01:10 PM (#5902979)
Ziggy played guitar.
   12. Itchy Row Posted: November 21, 2019 at 01:12 PM (#5902981)
Griffey is 50 today. How did that happen? I'm not even going to try to figure out how old I must be.
   13. Mike Webber Posted: November 21, 2019 at 01:23 PM (#5902982)
   14. vortex of dissipation Posted: November 21, 2019 at 02:09 PM (#5902993)
Freddie Lindstrom was a damn good player through age 24. From 1926 to 1930, he put up a batting line of .334/.375./.484, an OPS+ of 120. He wasn't regarded as an outstanding fielder at third base, but he posted positive dWAR every year of that period. And he was only 24 at the end of that five season span. The problem was that he broke his ankle in 1931, and was never the same player after that, putting up an OPS+ of 99 for the rest of his career. He was done at age 30, and spent the second half of his career mainly as an outfielder, where that hitting performance wouldn't be as valuable as he would be at third.

If you want to say that he's not a worthy Hall of Famer, in balance I'd agree with you. The peak was too short. But that peak was very good.
   15. eric Posted: November 21, 2019 at 03:10 PM (#5903014)
Griffey is 50 today. How did that happen? I'm not even going to try to figure out how old I must be.


I came here to post almost that exact same sentiment. The Kid is 50. No longer the 19yo wunderkid I have very clear memories of (and trying unsuccessfully to get his 1989 Upper Deck RC without shelling out TWELVE WHOLE DOLLARS for it).
   16. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: November 21, 2019 at 03:15 PM (#5903016)
amongst players with at least 2000 pa, there were 24 players from 1926-1930 with an ops+ of at least 120.

edit: he is behind immortals like Fats Fothergill (126), George Grantham (129), Riggs Stephenson (134) and Babe Herman (147). 120 ops+ is lower than a lot of the other obvious HOF mistakes of that era, Jim Bottomley (132), Chick Hafey (144), Tony Lazzeri(? maybe a mistake, definitely better than some of these others) (129)
   17. Walt Davis Posted: November 21, 2019 at 03:52 PM (#5903022)
Lindstrom was 16th in WAR for 1926-30. Nearly everybody ahead of him is in the HoF and several behind him and of course most of them were older than him. Foxx was two years younger and Ott was 3 years younger but he's got Foxx beat barely, Ott by a few WAR ... but obviously 2-3 years is a big difference at those ages but also Foxx and Ott aren't exactly borderline HoFers. He had more WAR and was younger than Chuck Klein which might be a better HoFer comp for the alternate universe where he doesn't get hurt. Or he's just behind Gehringer who was also a few years older.

But yeah, he was only on a HoF track during those 5 years, not putting up an incredible peak. If he'd followed up those 20 WAR with another 25-30 WAR during a typical age 25-29 peak then he would have been on his way to a "steady, excellent" HoF career. Instead just one good season, 7 WAR total, and done at 30.
   18. KJOK Posted: November 21, 2019 at 06:54 PM (#5903061)
it is likely that the St. Louis, Philadelphia and Boston clubs may use one field in each of those cities next season


The Cardinals moved in more out of desperation than anything, as their stadium was built of wood, and falling apart.
The Phillies should have moved, but they hung on to Baker Bowl for quite a while longer, which included a grandstand collapse.
But I don't get the Boston reference. Both the Braves and Red Sox had relatively new, good stadiums. Maybe it had something to do with the Fenway real estate issues that were part of the Ruth trade?

   19. AndrewJ Posted: November 21, 2019 at 07:13 PM (#5903063)
Today's Birthday Team manager was among the most respected of the 1950s -- he made the White Sox and Oriole franchises highly competitive.
   20. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: November 21, 2019 at 08:24 PM (#5903070)
But probably should be. Bennett had the poor fortune to be an exact contemporary of superduperstar Buck Ewing, at a time when 90 games at catcher would lead the league most years.

90 games at catcher would lead the league because that was the entire schedule. Bennett's career high in games played was 92, achieved for the 1883 Detroit Wolverines, who played 101 games. He had similar totals in similar schedules each of the next two years.
   21. The Honorable Ardo Posted: November 21, 2019 at 08:26 PM (#5903071)
The lineup has no weaknesses, but when your best post-1900 pitcher is Mark Eichhorn... It's a shame, because this team would score a lot of runs.

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