Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Wednesday, December 18, 2019

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 12-18-2019

Hugh Fullerton in the New York Evening World, December 18, 1919:

Demands for an entire cleaning up of baseball and a thorough investigation of the scandalous charges made in connection with the recent World’s Series are pouring in.
...
These charges were not made by me; I never said or insinuated that the seven ball players accused by common report are guilty. The thing I have said is that the powers of baseball MUST investigate and either throw out the men or exonerate them completely.
...
All I demand is that these men be either convicted or acquitted. If every man named in these charges is guilty only one in twenty major league players is even suspected—and unless they are cleared or convicted the others will be in the same position as they are, and a great part of the public will believe them all crooked.

A tip of the cap to Hugh Fullerton, one of the few heroes of this story.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: December 18, 2019 at 09:52 AM | 48 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: December 18, 2019 at 09:53 AM (#5909483)
Not much on today's Birthday Team past Ty Cobb. (Admittedly, Ty Cobb was a hell of a player.) It would be interesting to see if Manager Cobb could put his pride aside and realize that Buxton's defense may be good enough to move Outfielder Cobb to one of the corners. And as Steve Parris, Je t'aime mentioned a couple years ago, positional tension might not be the only source of conflict between Buxton and his manager.

C: Dave Oldfield (-0.4 WAR)
1B: Bill Skowron (26.9 WAR)
2B: Joe Randa (21.4 WAR)
3B: Roy Howell (10.9 WAR)
SS: Zoilo Versalles (12.6 WAR)
LF: Ronald Acuna Jr. (9.6 WAR)
CF: Byron Buxton (9.9 WAR)
RF/Manager: Ty Cobb (151.0 WAR)

SP: Jim Clancy (20.5 WAR)
SP: Dick Coffman (5.5 WAR)
SP: Willie Blair (2.6 WAR)
SP: Taylor Jungmann (1.1 WAR)
SP: Buddy Napier (0.3 WAR)
RP: Rex Brothers (4.6 WAR)
RP: Lance Carter (3.3 WAR)
RP: Jeremy Accardo (1.9 WAR)

Fun names: Coaker Triplett, Gino Cimoli, Jim Czajkowski, Hub Knolls
Not that one or that one: Chris Carter
Umpire: Drew Coble
   2. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: December 18, 2019 at 09:59 AM (#5909488)
Matt Kemp to MIA on a minor league deal.
   3. EddieA Posted: December 18, 2019 at 10:01 AM (#5909489)
Not much on today's Birthday Team past Ty Cobb.


That Ronald Acuna Jr is pretty good!
   4. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: December 18, 2019 at 10:03 AM (#5909491)
Not much on today's Birthday Team past Ty Cobb.


That Ronald Acuna Jr is pretty good!


Dan made a similar comment a few days ago on a team with Gleyber Torres at SS.
   5. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 18, 2019 at 10:05 AM (#5909493)
And as Steve Parris, Je t'aime mentioned a couple years ago, positional tension might not be the only source of conflict between Buxton and his manager.
Actually Cobb spoke out pretty strongly in favor of integration in his later years.
   6. Rennie's Tenet Posted: December 18, 2019 at 10:18 AM (#5909499)
the seven ball players accused by common report are guilty.


Who was the 7th at that point? McMullin got two-bats in the Series. Was Weaver suspect for his play?
   7. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: December 18, 2019 at 10:18 AM (#5909500)
Dan made a similar comment a few days ago on a team with Gleyber Torres at SS.
Yeah, I've really got to do a better job revisiting these comments and not just copying and pasting. :/
   8. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 18, 2019 at 10:23 AM (#5909504)
Actually Cobb spoke out pretty strongly in favor of integration in his later years.

Yes, and his family was actually very pro-equality on race issues (his father was a state senator).
   9. PreservedFish Posted: December 18, 2019 at 10:31 AM (#5909508)
How did they pronounce Zoilo?
   10. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: December 18, 2019 at 10:34 AM (#5909510)
SS: Zoilo Versalles (12.6 WAR)

7.2 of that came in his MVP season
How did they pronounce Zoilo?

we always called him Zorro
   11. Perry Posted: December 18, 2019 at 10:37 AM (#5909513)
How did they pronounce Zoilo?


ZOY-yo, as I recall. Or sometimes you'd hear ZOY-lo.
   12. PreservedFish Posted: December 18, 2019 at 10:46 AM (#5909516)
I figured it was ZOY-yo, but I was kind of hoping that it was zo-EEE-lo.
   13. Perry Posted: December 18, 2019 at 10:54 AM (#5909521)
Of course I'm going by the Curt Gowdy pronunciation, which when it came to the "other" league's players, was the only one a lot of us ever heard in the 60s.
   14. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 18, 2019 at 10:58 AM (#5909524)
Matt Kemp to MIA on a minor league deal.
The missing piece.
   15. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: December 18, 2019 at 11:04 AM (#5909531)
ZOY-yo, as I recall. Or sometimes you'd hear ZOY-lo.

the Indians announcers used the latter pronunciation
   16. salvomania Posted: December 18, 2019 at 11:05 AM (#5909533)
2B: Joe Randa (21.4 WAR)

Joe Randa in 2000 is the only batter in MLB history (1900-) to have a season in which he batted .300 with 100 RBI and an OPS+ below 95.

Jeff Cirillo (also in 2000) is the only other hitter since the 1930s to hit .300 with 100 RBI and an OPS+ below 100.

In the '20s and '30s it happened seven times, four of them by players named "Pinky" (Pinky Higgins twice, and Pinky Whitney twice).
   17. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: December 18, 2019 at 11:06 AM (#5909534)
Cobb by himself out-WARs plenty of birthday teams. With an assortment of 20 WAR supporting pieces, and a young Acuna, this one actually doesn't look too bad.
   18. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: December 18, 2019 at 11:26 AM (#5909543)
Agree. by birthday team standards, this one is pretty good, and likely to get better. If Buxton can figure things out and stay healthy (2 big ifs admittedly), this could be a historic outfield. And with three CFs, historically good D as well.
   19. The Honorable Ardo Posted: December 18, 2019 at 12:13 PM (#5909568)
Not a great team (terrible pitching), but Acuna, Buxton, and Cobb has to be the most fun Birthday Outfield on record. Imagine all three of them terrorizing their opponents on the basepaths. They even spell ABC!
   20. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: December 18, 2019 at 12:21 PM (#5909575)
Yeah, I overlooked the pitching. Potentially great lineup though.
   21. Sweatpants Posted: December 18, 2019 at 12:28 PM (#5909581)
Is Carter the most prominent player to get a "not that one" designation? He led the league in homers once.

He also wasn't this one. There can't be too many players who shared a name and were active at the same time (Bobby Jones, Jeff D'Amico; I think the Ryan Brauns and Abraham Nunezes had overlapping careers).
   22. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: December 18, 2019 at 12:35 PM (#5909588)
Bob Miller--in 1958, there were 3 of them
   23. JJ1986 Posted: December 18, 2019 at 12:54 PM (#5909595)
Original Frank Thomas was a 3-time All-Star.
   24. Itchy Row Posted: December 18, 2019 at 12:55 PM (#5909596)
The other Frank Thomas was pretty prominent, and there were two Ken Griffeys, if that counts.

Somewhat relatedly, #16 made me look at Pinky Whitney's career. He had a 98 OPS+ and 117 RBI for the 1930 Phillies. By bWAR, the second most-valuable player on that team was a not-that-one named Phil Collins, who bb-ref doesn't have a picture of. He's not exactly prominent, but Collins won 16 games that year and 80 in his career. Are there other players from the 1930's who had fairly substantial careers but don't have pictures on bb-ref?
   25. Sweatpants Posted: December 18, 2019 at 01:10 PM (#5909601)
I meant "not that one" as it pertains to birthday team listing. Original Thomas and original Griffey are both starters on their teams.
   26. The Mighty Quintana Posted: December 18, 2019 at 01:10 PM (#5909602)
By bWAR, the second most-valuable player on that team was a not-that-one named Phil Collins, who bb-ref doesn't have a picture of.

No Reply at All
   27. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 18, 2019 at 01:14 PM (#5909603)
No Face Value
   28. Sweatpants Posted: December 18, 2019 at 01:40 PM (#5909612)
I swear that Brad Wilkerson didn't get a picture on Baseball-Reference until this year. Give them just one more night and I'm sure they'll find one for Collins.
   29. Rennie's Tenet Posted: December 18, 2019 at 01:44 PM (#5909614)
There can't be too many players who shared a name and were active at the same time


The careers of Texas Mike and Mississippi Mike Smith overlapped for about four days in 1989.
   30. salvomania Posted: December 18, 2019 at 01:59 PM (#5909627)
The Earl Smiths of the teens and '20s overlapped for four seasons (1919-1922), with the one known as "Oil" (cute), a catcher, finishing with a lifetime .303 BA over 860 games.
   31. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 18, 2019 at 01:59 PM (#5909629)
Give them just one more night and I'm sure they'll find one for Collins.
Against all odds.
   32. salvomania Posted: December 18, 2019 at 02:02 PM (#5909633)
The two Chris Carpenters (not to be confused with the Cris Carpenter whose last year was the year before Chris Carpenter's first year) overlapped in 2011-2012.
   33. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: December 18, 2019 at 02:08 PM (#5909639)
There were 2 Randy Johnsons, neither of which was that one, active in 1982.
   34. Itchy Row Posted: December 18, 2019 at 02:14 PM (#5909642)
Brian Hunter and Brian Hunter came within a day of being eligible for the same birthday team.

Some people still believe there were two Alex Gonzalezes and not that it was one guy getting two paychecks.
   35. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 18, 2019 at 02:21 PM (#5909648)
Scott Service and Scott Servais were active together for almost a decade.
   36. AndrewJ Posted: December 18, 2019 at 02:22 PM (#5909649)
There were also two pretty good major leaguers named George Burns simultaneously in the 1910s and 1920s, each of them only a couple of years older than the iconic comedian (born Nathan Birnbaum)...
   37. Itchy Row Posted: December 18, 2019 at 02:40 PM (#5909658)
There were two speedy outfielders in the 1980's named Willie Wilson and William Wilson, but William went by a nickname.
   38. Rennie's Tenet Posted: December 18, 2019 at 02:47 PM (#5909659)
And the catching Hal Smith's.
   39. Qufini Posted: December 18, 2019 at 03:19 PM (#5909667)
Although the spelling is different, Chris Davis and Khris Davis have been in the league together since 2013.
   40. stanmvp48 Posted: December 18, 2019 at 03:27 PM (#5909670)
And a long forgotten NFL quarterback named Randy Johnson, who I believe was a high draft choice from Texas A and I in the mid 60s
   41. Walt Davis Posted: December 18, 2019 at 04:03 PM (#5909687)
For crying out loud people, the two Alex Gonzaleses not only overlapped and played the same position, they were each other's most similar player for a while.

EDIT: My apology, both were GonzaleZ
EDIT2: And still so. Alex Gonzalez was Alex Gonzalez's most similar player for ages 26-30 and Alex Gonzalez was also Alex Gonzalez's most similar player at those ages. However for ages 31-33, Alex Gonzalez remained Alex Gonzalez's most similar player but Alex Gonzalez was no longer Alex Gonzalez's most similar player except at age 33. For their careers, Alex Gonzalez is Alex Gonzalez's 3rd most similar player but Alex Gonzalez is only Alex Gonzalez's 7th most similar player.
   42. Walt Davis Posted: December 18, 2019 at 04:13 PM (#5909690)
Per b-r, it is ZOY-lo ... who, oddly enough, is Alex Gonzalez's most similar career match (but not in the top 10 for Alex Gonzalez).
   43. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 18, 2019 at 04:13 PM (#5909691)
Photos of Phil Collins from his MLB days certainly exist.

Chris Carter's fall was incredibly quick. He led the AL in home runs in 2016, and played his last MLB game in July of the following season. He hit 49 home runs in the Mexican League this season, so I guess it's possible that someone might still take a flyer on him...
   44. SoSH U at work Posted: December 18, 2019 at 06:30 PM (#5909755)
For crying out loud people, the two Alex Gonzaleses not only overlapped and played the same position, they were each other's most similar player for a while.


The problem with the Alex Gonzalii is no one would know which one is the One and which one is the Not That One.
   45. Walt Davis Posted: December 18, 2019 at 07:04 PM (#5909759)
That is the beauty of the Gonzalii, they are both the One and both the Not That One.
   46. Walt Davis Posted: December 18, 2019 at 07:15 PM (#5909761)
For some pointless completeness .... there have been two non-overlapping Bob Gibsons. The other one did make it to 270 IP and 1.3 WAR so he might make his b-day team. There were two very briefly overlapping Billy Williamses. The other one debuted (and exited) at age 37 with 12 PA for the Pilots in 69 after 7,917 minor-league PAs.

I'm still not sure I believe there were two Jeff d'Amicos in the world at the same time much less that they both played MLB. Sure, it's great that two d'Amico clans assimilated but people should have enough cultural pride not to go so far as to name their kids Jeffrey.
   47. Hank Gillette Posted: December 18, 2019 at 07:23 PM (#5909764)
If every man named in these charges is guilty only one in twenty major league players is even suspected—and unless they are cleared or convicted the others will be in the same position as they are, and a great part of the public will believe them all crooked.


I am a little confused by this sentence. What was the size of major league rosters in 1919? Seven times 20 is 140. There were many more than 140 major league players in 1919.
   48. Walt Davis Posted: December 18, 2019 at 09:05 PM (#5909777)
Well it's not like anybody was worried about the Senators or A's throwing games. :-) No I don't get it either ... I suppose 9 starters by 16 teams is 144? But I don't really get the rest of that sentence either -- if every one of these is guilty ...then the rest must be innocent? Or "[and even if] only a further 5% are suspected then ... DOOM?"

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Chicago Joe
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogEmpty Stadium Sports Will Be Really Weird
(4329 - 8:35pm, May 28)
Last: Zach

NewsblogMLB owners sending latest plan to MLBPA that includes sliding pay scale for players
(67 - 8:05pm, May 28)
Last: Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome

NewsblogFormer Braves catcher Biff Pocoroba dies at 66
(6 - 7:47pm, May 28)
Last: Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili (TeddyF.Ballgame)

NewsblogBatting .400? A sub-1.00 ERA? Here are the MLB records that could be threatened in an 82-game season
(32 - 7:43pm, May 28)
Last: Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome

NewsblogESTEBAN LOAIZA'S WRONG TURN
(12 - 7:29pm, May 28)
Last: Tin Angel

NewsblogOT – NBA CoronaThread 2020
(3107 - 6:25pm, May 28)
Last: never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135

NewsblogInside Roy Halladay's struggle with pain, addiction
(12 - 5:28pm, May 28)
Last: Eric J can SABER all he wants to

NewsblogHow Johnson, Pedro could have starred in same rotation
(9 - 5:08pm, May 28)
Last: ajnrules

NewsblogGriffey a Pirate? Chipper a Tiger? The MLB draft rule that changed history
(4 - 4:02pm, May 28)
Last: Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad)

NewsblogA's Tell Minor Leaguers They Won't Be Paid for the Remainder of the Season
(31 - 3:31pm, May 28)
Last: Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 5-28-2020
(14 - 2:54pm, May 28)
Last: Mayor Blomberg

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 5-27-2020
(24 - 7:13am, May 28)
Last: JJ1986

NewsblogGregg Jefferies complicated Mets’ failure looks different now
(78 - 7:37pm, May 27)
Last: Jay Z

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1927 Ballot
(2 - 1:19pm, May 27)
Last: DL from MN

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1927 Discussion
(7 - 1:12pm, May 27)
Last: DL from MN

-->

Page rendered in 0.4332 seconds
46 querie(s) executed