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Monday, December 02, 2019

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 12-2-2019

Pittsburgh Press, December 2, 1919:

Considerable has been written about the recent world’s series, and about the work of the Whitesox in many of the games. There have been broad hints that all was not right, and many versions of just what took place have been circulated.

An Eastern sporting man who claimed to be on the “inside” recently said that the Chicago players were entirely innocent of wrongdoing. Said this man:

‘A certain sure-thing guy in the Windy City put up a job on a bunch of eastern gamblers which netted a handsome profit for him. This fellow sent out word that he had fixed certain players who had guaranteed to throw the series to the Reds…The Chicago fixer was just taking a big chance. He knew enough about baseball to figure that the Reds had a splendid chance to win and he simply trusted to luck to pull him through.’

There is nothing to see here. Please disperse.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: December 02, 2019 at 10:06 AM | 74 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: black sox, dugout, history

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: December 02, 2019 at 10:11 AM (#5904796)
Not a super Birthday Team today, but it's okay. I was shocked to learn that Julio Cruz still has more career WAR than Gary Sanchez. I know he was a good defensive second baseman, but he did slug .299.

C: Gary Sanchez (11.3 WAR)
1B: Andre Rodgers (6.3 WAR)
2B: Bob Jones (6.5 WAR)
3B: Chip Hale (1.3 WAR)
SS: Julio Cruz (16.9 WAR)
LF/Manager: Deacon White (45.5 WAR)
CF: Mark Kotsay (21.3 WAR)
RF: Glenn Crawford (1.6 WAR)

SP: Darryl Kile (20.2 WAR)
SP: Johnny Welch (7.2 WAR)
SP: Roscoe Miller (7.0 WAR)
SP: Adrian Devine (2.7 WAR)
SP: Don Brennan (0.5 WAR)
RP: Peter Moylan (5.7 WAR)
RP: Pedro Borbon the Elder (5.2 WAR)

Writer: Tom Verducci
Japanese amateur P/2B from the early years of the 20th century: Yaichiro Sakurai
Drafted as an outfielder, chose football, made millions of dollars: O.J. McDuffie
   2. Itchy Row Posted: December 02, 2019 at 11:15 AM (#5904809)
Cruz slugged .269 in 1978 and had 2.3 WAR. That's the 8th lowest SLG in a 2+ WAR season in the last 100 years. Three of the seven seasons ahead of him are Mark Belanger years where he was worth over 3.4 WAR.
   3. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 11:28 AM (#5904812)
Cruz was a superb baserunner and a good fielder at a premium position. That's not enough to make you an all star if you were as bad a hitter as he was, but he was a good player for his time.
   4. QLE Posted: December 02, 2019 at 11:34 AM (#5904813)
While, in comparison, Sanchez is not an especially impressive defensive catcher, isn't particularly good on the basepaths, doesn't walk much, and has had his batting average plunge- the one thing he has at the moment is isolated power, and, if they fix the rabbit ball, he could be in trouble.
   5. Walt Davis Posted: December 02, 2019 at 11:57 AM (#5904817)
Sanchez has an above-average walk rate actually which helped him maintain a just below-average OBP last year. 2018 was terrible for BA but then he somehowh managed a BABIP of just 197 which I believe is still well below the BABIP of pitchers. His HR/FB meanwhile is elite (21.3%, better than Thome's career mark).
   6. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: December 02, 2019 at 11:59 AM (#5904818)
today could feature a handful of small time mlb transactions, as it's the deadline to tender contracts for 2020. already, cleveland picked up sandy leon for adenys bautista.
   7. Tom Nawrocki Posted: December 02, 2019 at 11:59 AM (#5904820)
I know he was a good defensive second baseman, but he did slug .299.



Sanchez has OBP'd .305 over the past two seasons. And is not a good defensive catcher.
   8. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:20 PM (#5904832)
All time "he played for THAT team??" team:

P: Christy Mathewson CIN
C: Mike Piazza FLA
1B: Pete Rose MTL
2B: Ryne Sandberg PHI
3B: Eddie Matthews DET
SS: Joe Cronin PIT
OF: Reggie Jackson BAL
OF: Ralph Kiner CLE
OF: Larry Doby Chunichi Dragons
DH: Harmon Killebrew KC


Notes: King Kelly with four games for the Boston (AA) Reds would be nice, if anyone still remembered which team he actually belongs on. (It's the Cubs/White Stockings.) Robin Roberts with the Yankees is even better than Matty, but given that he never actually played with them, maybe it doesn't count. I decided not to include players who "go home" to the city in which they began their careers - thus Aaron, Mays, and Ruth are excluded. Matty is a difficult one under this rule, since he was originally Reds property but was traded to the Giants before making an appearance. If neither Matthewson nor Roberts counts, Cy Young - Boston Rustlers, or Warren Spahn - San Francisco Giants, would be okay.
   9. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:26 PM (#5904836)
I feel like Ty Cobb on the A's has to be on that team...unless that team would be competing against a second team made up of all "he played for the A'S??"
   10. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:27 PM (#5904837)
All time "he played for THAT team??" team:

P: Christy Mathewson CIN
C: Mike Piazza FLA
1B: Pete Rose MTL
2B: Ryne Sandberg PHI
3B: Eddie Matthews DET
SS: Joe Cronin PIT
OF: Reggie Jackson BAL
OF: Ralph Kiner CLE
OF: Larry Doby Chunichi Dragons
DH: Harmon Killebrew KC


Maybe it's just me, but I thought it was pretty well known that Sandberg came to the Cubs as a throw in on the Dejesus-Bowa trade, and that Dallas Greene totally ripped off the Phillies. Better 2B IMO would be Nellie Fox - A's, Joe Morgan - A's, or Robbie Alomar - Diamondbacks.
   11. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:30 PM (#5904839)
If neither Matthewson nor Roberts counts, Cy Young - Boston Rustlers, or Warren Spahn - San Francisco Giants, would be okay.


Robin Roberts - Astros.
   12. Itchy Row Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:33 PM (#5904843)
If you're putting together a starting rotation, Steve Carlton closed out his career with four "THAT team"s. There's also Toronto Blue Jay great Phil Niekro.
   13. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:36 PM (#5904844)
Curt Schilling - Astros
   14. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:36 PM (#5904845)
Rickey and about 7 different teams.
   15. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:37 PM (#5904846)
John Smoltz - Cardinals.
   16. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:39 PM (#5904847)
David Cone - Red Sox

You could cover at least 3/4 of MLB between Goose Gossage and Hoyt Wilhelm.
   17. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:41 PM (#5904848)
Better 2B IMO would be Nellie Fox - A's, Joe Morgan - A's, or Robbie Alomar - Diamondbacks.

Willie Randolph - A's
Steve Sax - A's

Can we just do the "He played for the A's?" team again?
   18. Tom Nawrocki Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:41 PM (#5904849)
Reggie Jackson spent his season with the Orioles right about the time I was reaching full flower of my youthful fandom, so that one is no surprise to me.

Dale Murphy with the Rockies is a good one.
   19. Itchy Row Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:42 PM (#5904850)
Tim Raines played four games with the Orioles. He also did time as an A and a Marlin.
   20. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:43 PM (#5904851)
David Cone - Red Sox

I would say John Olerud - Red Sox but it's been his main photo on Wikipedia for about ten years so maybe he's MOST associated with the Red Sox now.
   21. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:45 PM (#5904852)
I think it's a much better trivia game to rull-out "last gasp" appearances at the end of the career, and limit the "WTF teams" to ones where the player still had at least a few really good years left.

Reggie with the O's and Piazza with the Marlins are good ones. Sandberg is too well know, IMHO.

Graig Nettles with the Twins is another great one. Somehow, the Twins traded Nettles for Luis Tiant, and then they released Tiant a year later.
   22. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:48 PM (#5904854)
I think it's a much better trivia game to rull-out "last gasp" appearances at the end of the career, and limit the "WTF teams" to ones where the player still had at least a few really good years left.

Or just rule out the A's - that should take care of most of the last gasps.

Jeff Kent spent 2 months with the Indians between being traded for Carlos Baerga and being traded for Matt Williams. Although that was a pretty highly publicized playoff run like Randy Johnson with the Astros.

Mark Buehrle with the Marlins - the rare case of signing a big free-agent contract with the team and still never being remembered with that team.
   23. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:49 PM (#5904855)
Juan Marichal as a Dodger would also work for a pitcher, especially given the Giants/Dodgers rivalry and the Roseboro incident.

Or Jimmie Foxx as a pitcher with the Phillies.
   24. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 02, 2019 at 12:52 PM (#5904857)
Ben Zobrist, Royals
   25. Rennie's Tenet Posted: December 02, 2019 at 01:00 PM (#5904864)
Wayne Simpson is the shooting star for today's birthday team. He reached the majors with the Reds in 1970, and was 13-1, 2.69 when he was selected for the All Star team. Arm trouble had already begun, though, and he didn't pitch after mid-August and missed the postseason. He's given credit for 2.5 bWAR in 1970, but he gave back enough in comeback attempts that he's listed at -1.0 bWAR for his career.
   26. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 02, 2019 at 01:01 PM (#5904865)
Ben Zobrist and the Royals were World Series champions so that stint hasn't been forgotten yet.

Ben Zobrist and the A's though...
   27. Itchy Row Posted: December 02, 2019 at 01:02 PM (#5904866)
The Dodgers had Dick Allen in 1971 and Frank Robinson the next year. Allen won an MVP in 1972 and had two other good years. Robinson had two good years left.
   28. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 02, 2019 at 01:03 PM (#5904867)
Ken Griffey Jr. with the White Sox.
   29. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 02, 2019 at 01:05 PM (#5904869)
Maury Wills, inaugural Expo. He had some decent years left after returning to the Dodgers, including putting up 4.1 WAR in just 104 games for the rest of 1969 after being traded.

Rusty Staub, 1980 Rangers.
   30. Rennie's Tenet Posted: December 02, 2019 at 01:10 PM (#5904871)
Kirk Gibson with the Pirates
   31. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: December 02, 2019 at 01:49 PM (#5904887)
You could cover at least 3/4 of MLB between Goose Gossage and Hoyt Wilhelm.


I thought about these guys, but decided not to count the players who did the rounds. Everybody on my list is known for belonging to a team (or two). Rickey! is definitely an A, but given how peripatetic he was, I wouldn't be surprised no matter what team you told me he played for. Let's try a team for which a player's last team doesn't count, and the farthest from a "last gasp" you can get, the better:

P: Curt Schilling HOU
C: Mike Piazza FLA
1B: Willie McCovey OAK
2B: Nellie Fox PHA
3B: Scott Rolen TOR
SS: Honus Wagner LOU (just to mix things up)
OF: Joe Jackson PHA
OF: Reggie Jackson BAL
OF: Frank Robinson LAD
   32. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 01:52 PM (#5904890)
I think it's a much better trivia game to rull-out "last gasp" appearances at the end of the career, and limit the "WTF teams" to ones where the player still had at least a few really good years left.


OK. First run

Piazza - Marlins
McCovey - A's
Hornsby - Braves
Maury Wills - Expos
Nettles - Twins
Rickey! - Angels
Kenny lofton - White Sox
Goose Goslin - Browns
Frank Thomas - Blue Jays
Fergie Jenkins - Red Sox
Billy Wagner - Red Sox

All played either several more years, or had at least one more good year, or both.


   33. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 01:57 PM (#5904892)
and the farthest from a "last gasp" you can get, the better:


How much weight to put on that? Would Lou Piniella BAL or CLE or Bobby Abreu HOU be better than Reggie or Frank?
   34. Itchy Row Posted: December 02, 2019 at 02:03 PM (#5904897)
Jamie Moyer was with the Cardinals in 1991 and the Toledo Mud Hens in 1992, but he'd only had one good year before that. His last gasp was 20 years later.
   35. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: December 02, 2019 at 02:09 PM (#5904900)
Nettles - Twins

he started there, so that's not much of a surprise
   36. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 02:13 PM (#5904903)
he started there, so that's not much of a surprise


So then every player's first team is not eligible?
   37. Tom Nawrocki Posted: December 02, 2019 at 02:14 PM (#5904904)
You could do this with just the Indians:

C: Del Crandall
1b: Eddie Murray
2B: Brandon Phillips
3B: Graig Nettles
SS: Jay Bell
OF: Ralph Kiner
OF: Dave Winfield
OF: Roger Maris
P: Steve Carlton
   38. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: December 02, 2019 at 02:22 PM (#5904906)
sd picks up jurickson profar from oakland. had a rough '19 with the bat (and yips early in the year) but still projects as a league average starter (if you're a steamer believer) for <=6m.
   39. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 02:23 PM (#5904907)
1966-67 Cubs:

P - Robin Roberts
P - Curt Simmons
P - Bob Buhl
P - Joe Niekro
P - Don Larsen
CL - Dick Radatz
   40. Walt Davis Posted: December 02, 2019 at 02:25 PM (#5904910)
Is Fergie on the Red Sox really unknown? Go figure.

On Sanchez, his defense doesn't explain his "low" WAR -- Rfield puts him at +5 for his caeer which also happens to be enough to offset his meagerly negative -4 baserunning (and 0 Rdp). (That doesn't mean his defense isn't crap, just that it's not been crap in what Rfield captures therefore isn't affecting hiw WAR.) The main reason for the WAR gap between him and Julio Cruz is 1576 PA vs. 4438 PA. Sanchez has more WAA (5.9) than Cruz; Sanchez has as many RAA as Rrep. Cruz has a 96-run edge in PT which is a big gap to expect Sanchez (or anybody) to make up in just 1600 PA. After his first 1597 PA, Betts was only 1 WAR ahead of Cruz thanks to his 10-WAR season. So, yeah, Sanchez is no Mookie Betts.

On the intro ... I'm confused. The Chicago fixer spread the rumor that he had fixed the series for the Reds .... and profited handsomely? And did this because he knew the Reds really had a solid shot at winning ... so wanted to encourage more money bet on the Reds? I'm just not clear on how the Eastern sporting man says this works.
   41. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: December 02, 2019 at 02:41 PM (#5904921)
Al Simmons - Cincinnati Reds
   42. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 02, 2019 at 02:41 PM (#5904923)
Here's my list. The criteria are 1) the guy still had prime seasons left, 2) I had a good idea of his team affiliations and was surprised to find this team, and 3) >50 career WAR (except C)

C E. Lombardi, BRO (edited to allow C <50 WAR)
1B N. Cash CHW, D. Allen STL/LAD
2B R. Hornsby BSN
3B G. Nettles MIN
SS J. Cronin PIT
LF R. Smith StL
CF J. Jackson PHA
RF R. Jackson BAL

P C. Yound StL
P F. Jenkins PHN
P R. Reuschel NYY
P K. Brown BAL
P T. John CLE
P M. Brown StL
P B. Pierce DET
   43. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 02, 2019 at 02:45 PM (#5904924)
You could do this with just the Indians:
Others: Keith Hernandez, Brian Giles, Richie Sexson, Phil Niekro, Boog Powell. Maybe Orel Hershiser.
   44. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 02, 2019 at 02:46 PM (#5904926)
he started there, so that's not much of a surprise

Does anyone remember that? I didn't.

So then every player's first team is not eligible?

I don't see why not, if it's obscure.
   45. Bote Man Posted: December 02, 2019 at 02:52 PM (#5904928)
Koda Glover has had enough with the injuries, rides off into his baseball sunset. 26 years old, his mama, God rest her soul.
   46. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 02:52 PM (#5904929)
C E. Lombardi, BRO (edited to allow C <50 WAR)
1B N. Cash CHW, D. Allen STL/LAD
2B R. Hornsby BSN
3B G. Nettles MIN
SS J. Cronin PIT
LF R. Smith StL
CF J. Jackson PHA
RF R. Jackson BAL

P C. Yound StL
P F. Jenkins PHN
P R. Reuschel NYY
P K. Brown BAL
P T. John CLE
P M. Brown StL
P B. Pierce DET


That's mostly a list of famous guys who had a brief stint with the team that originally drafted or signed them. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just not that interesting. And it's not empirically better than last hurrah guys.
   47. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 02, 2019 at 02:57 PM (#5904935)
C E. Lombardi, BRO (edited to allow C <50 WAR)
What about Gary Carter, SF/LAD?

EDIT: Sorry, forgot about the "had prime left" requirement.
   48. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: December 02, 2019 at 03:01 PM (#5904936)
the return for profar was non-trivial, austin allen. he's a catcher who struggled in a 71 pa trial with the big club but raked (big time power) as a minor leaguer. lefty struggles defensively and make not stick behind the plate. would be in the top ten prospect lists for many teams.
   49. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 03:02 PM (#5904937)
What about Gary Carter, SF/LAD?

EDIT: Sorry, forgot about the "had prime left" requirement.


I fail to see how Piazza is not the gold standard here.
   50. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 02, 2019 at 03:03 PM (#5904938)
lefty struggles defensively and make not stick behind the plate.
I would imagine so.
   51. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: December 02, 2019 at 03:09 PM (#5904942)
Also remember that El Paso is some craziness. His 663 SLG was only third on his own team (among full-time-ish players).
   52. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 02, 2019 at 03:17 PM (#5904945)
I fail to see how Piazza is not the gold standard here.

His is. I just wasn't surprised that he was a Marlin. I knew that.
   53. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 02, 2019 at 03:19 PM (#5904946)
That's mostly a list of famous guys who had a brief stint with the team that originally drafted or signed them. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just not that interesting. And it's not empirically better than last hurrah guys.

I think it's more interesting because it shows which teams traded/otherwise gave up on superstars. It's easy to acquire a washed up superstar at 40; lots of these guys go through 3 or 4 token teams.
   54. Bote Man Posted: December 02, 2019 at 03:20 PM (#5904947)
CF: Mark Kotsay (21.3 WAR)

RP: Peter Moylan (5.7 WAR)


Peter Moylan threw the slider that Ryan Zimmerman whacked over Mark Kotsay's head and into the LF stands to win the game that opened up Nationals Park in 2008.

Tune in next time for another informative episode of Remembering Some Guys.
   55. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: December 02, 2019 at 03:25 PM (#5904951)
heh, lefty bat.
el paso is a crazy hitters park in a crazy hitters league with good hitters. (team ops of .897 did not lead the league) still, allen can hit.
   56. Walt Davis Posted: December 02, 2019 at 03:57 PM (#5904965)
Personally, I would rule out "surprise first team" unless the guy had some level of reasonable playing time and maybe only if he wasn't part of a reasoably well-known trade. Fergie threw all of 14 innings for the Phils which is closer to being surprised that Bagwell was once in the Red Sox system.

Obviously that's a balancing act -- if they played too mucb for that first team, they shouldn't be a surprise. Sombeoby mentioned Giles and Cleveland. Brian Giles had over 1000 PA with Cleveland, was a platoon starter for 2 years on playoff teams (incl the one that made the WS) ... and the trade for Rincon was widely commented on at the time (and why Cleveland thought a LHR was the key missing piece...) I'm not sure how one could follow late 90s baseball and be surprised that Giles had been on Cleveland. But then we've got folks surprised that Reggie Smith and Dick Allen were in StL so I guess I'm just old and my brain has funny priorities on what it remembers and what it doesn't.

I'm surprised folks are surprised about Reggie in Baltimore too. That was the first big move in Finley's infamous attempted dismantling of the A's, followed by trying to sell off players only to have Kuhn invalidate those deals. I don't recall what had/hadn't been worked out about FA by then but Reggie was a FA at year's end and that wasn't such a bad trade. At the end of that season, the A's lost Baylor, Bando, Campy, Fingers, Rudi, Tenace (and Colbert and McCovey) to FA. And that summer they drafted Rickey with the 96th pick overall. (None of their first three picks even made the majors.) Anyway, Reggie in Baltimore was basically the Piazza in Miami of the day.

There are some where a player is so identified with a team that I have to remind myself they played elsewhere -- Ozzie with the Padres for example.

On Hornsby ... I mentioned this a couple of weeks ago. The most amazing thing to me is that, after a series of 10-WAR seasons, he slumped to 4 WAR so the Cards traded him to the Giants ... where he put up 10 WAR so they traded him to the Braves .... where he put up 9 WAR so they traded him to the Cubs (where he put up 10 WAR and stuck around for a while).
   57. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: December 02, 2019 at 04:05 PM (#5904971)
moose to cincy to play 2b for 4/~64. peraza n-t'd.
   58. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: December 02, 2019 at 04:11 PM (#5904975)
Speaking of Austin Allen: dealt to OAK for Profar.
   59. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 02, 2019 at 04:21 PM (#5904978)
Er, yeah...that's why we were speaking of Austin Allen (see 48) ;).
   60. PreservedFish Posted: December 02, 2019 at 04:29 PM (#5904980)
moose ... to play 2b


Oh dear
   61. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: December 02, 2019 at 04:46 PM (#5904986)
Al Simmons - Cincinnati Reds

You could make a good list with just the pre-war Reds:

C Johnny Kling
1B Hal Chase / Harry Heilmann / Wally Pipp
2B Eddie Joost
3B Jim Delahanty
SS Leo Durocher
OF Sam Crawford
OF Al Simmons
OF Chick Hafey / Kiki Cuyler
SP Christy Matthewson
   62. oscar madisox Posted: December 02, 2019 at 04:57 PM (#5904994)
I'm surprised folks are surprised about Reggie in Baltimore too.


Me too. And the same goes for Nettles and the Twins. Then again, I grew up in the 70s and remember that decade well, what with baseball cards and the sporting news being a big part of my life. I guess this is an age thing. I suppose my "He played for them!" team would differ from someone who was born in the 90s and would rightly have no recollection of Reggie's 1976 Sports Illustrated cover with him in an O's uniform.



   63. oscar madisox Posted: December 02, 2019 at 05:02 PM (#5904999)
Sorry. Meant to link this, but had already hit submit


Reggie's 76 SI cover
   64. Walt Davis Posted: December 02, 2019 at 08:29 PM (#5905057)
I will say that I don't know that anybody had adjusted their thinking to the FA era yet (except maybe Finley) -- i.e. the notion that Reggie was going to Baltimore and would be gone in a year I don't think was realized by writers, etc. So my Piazza to the Marlins analogy is a bit stretched.
   65. Walt Davis Posted: December 02, 2019 at 08:42 PM (#5905059)
Things to do in an airbnb while waiting for laundry ... go down the all-time WAR list and see what interesting "that teams" I can come up with (that I don't think have been mentioned yet ... many of these are last teams)

Cy Young Braves
Speaker Sens & A's
Maddux Padres
Spahn Giants (Mets are too memorable)
Perry Royals
Thome Dodgers
Santo White Sox (sure I know this one well)
   66. Howie Menckel Posted: December 02, 2019 at 08:52 PM (#5905062)
Paul "Big Poison" Waner in Yankees pinstripes, 1944-45 (7 AB in 1944, walked in his only PA in 1945).

Lloyd "Little Poison" Waner had cups of coffee - and more - late with Braves, Reds, Phillies, Dodgers to help drop his career OPS+ to 99.

also on the 1945 NYY, Red Ruffing. but in 1947, the fabled Red Sox/Yankees combo career guy ended it all with the ChiSox (3-5, 6.11 ERA with 1 May start, 3 July, 3 August, 2 September)
   67. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 09:07 PM (#5905063)
His is. I just wasn't surprised that he was a Marlin. I knew that.


Well, in which case, there can never be an objective standard. I'm not surprised that Fergie Jenkins started with the Phillies.
   68. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 09:09 PM (#5905065)
I think it's more interesting because it shows which teams traded/otherwise gave up on superstars. It's easy to acquire a washed up superstar at 40; lots of these guys go through 3 or 4 token teams.


Except it's artificially constrained by players traded only after they appeared for the MLB team. Jeff Bagwell and Gleyber Torres won't show up on this list.
   69. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: December 02, 2019 at 09:18 PM (#5905069)
I don't think it's that any of us are surprised that Reggie played for the O's. It's not like I learned it looking up his page on B-R. It's more like it doesn't sound right, even though you know it is.

Players coaching late in their careers does this in spades. Ever seen a picture of Joe DiMaggio in A's green? Google it, it happened. Babe Ruth in Brooklyn blue. Heck, we could probably get a team out of weird coaching gigs. Ted Williams, Washington Senator.
   70. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 02, 2019 at 09:22 PM (#5905070)
Bob Gibson, Mets and Braves
   71. bbmck Posted: December 02, 2019 at 09:36 PM (#5905073)
181 position players debuted in the expansion era, have at least 3 seasons of 5+ position player WAR, only played one season for this franchise (so far) and that season was Age 25-35:

BAL: Reggie Jackson 30, Michael Bourn 33, Andy Van Slyke 34
BOS: Adrian Beltre 31, Grady Sizemore 31, Aaron Hill 34
CHW: Ellis Burks 28, Bobby Bonds 32, Kevin Youkilis 33, Andruw Jones 33, Kenny Lofton 35, Julio Franco 35
CLE: Jeff Kent 28, Marquis Grissom 30, Matt Williams 31, Josh Donaldson 32, Bobby Bonds 33, Hanley Ramirez 35
DET: Luis Gonzalez 30

HOU: Tommie Agee 30
KCR: Chuck Knoblauch 33, Ben Zobrist 34, Kirk Gibson 34
LAA: Mark Teixeira 28, Edgardo Alfonzo 32
MIN: none
NYY: Bobby Bonds 29, Andrew McCutchen 31, Troy Tulowitzki 34, Kevin Youkilis 34, Lance Berkman 34, John Olerud 35, Jose Canseco 35, Toby Harrah 35, Jim Wynn 35

OAK: Matt Holliday 29, Ben Zobrist 34, Nomar Garciaparra 35, Willie Randolph 35, Dick Allen 35
SEA: none
TBR: Grady Sizemore 32
TEX: Travis Hafner 25, Andruw Jones 32, Bobby Bonds 32, Vladimir Guerrero 35
TOR: Edgardo Alfonzo 32, Jose Canseco 33, Rickey Henderson 34

ARI: Michael Bourn 33, Devon White 35
ATL: Kenny Lofton 30, Josh Donaldson 33, Jim Wynn 34
CHC: Bobby Bonds 35
CIN: Paul Blair 35
COL: none

LAD: Manny Machado 25, Dick Allen 29, Andruw Jones 31, Cesar Cedeno 35, Boog Powell 35
MIA: Mike Piazza 29, Ivan Rodriguez 31, Carlos Delgado 33
MIL: Aaron Hill 34, Jim Wynn 35
NYM: none
PHI: Andrew McCutchen 32, Andy Van Slyke 34

PIT: Kirk Gibson 35
SDP: Manny Machado 26
SFG: Andrew McCutchen 31, Darryl Strawberry 32, Carlos Beltran 34, Aaron Hill 35, Kenny Lofton 35
STL: Jason Heyward 25, Dick Allen 28, Tommie Agee 30, Paul Goldschmidt 31, Cesar Cedeno 34, Bobby Bonds 34
WSN: none

Players like Anthony Rizzo and Jeff Kent being traded before they have done much in MLB show up without minimum Age 25.
   72. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 09:37 PM (#5905074)
I don't think it's that any of us are surprised that Reggie played for the O's. It's not like I learned it looking up his page on B-R. It's more like it doesn't sound right, even though you know it is.


Exactly. Maybe there should be a HOM project. Jackson on the O's fits perfectly.
   73. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: December 02, 2019 at 10:01 PM (#5905077)
Using that criteria:

Piazza - Marlins
McCovey - A's
Hornsby - Braves
SS - No one comes to mind. maybe Aparicio Red Sox
Mathews - Astros
Rickey! - Angels
Lofton - White Sox
Reggie - Orioles
Fergie - Red Sox

No last gasp. No cup of rookie coffee then traded.
   74. Dock Ellis Posted: December 03, 2019 at 02:26 AM (#5905114)
Gary Sheffield led the league in total bases as a young Padre and had a 119 OPS+ as a 40 y/o Met.

Yoenis Cespedes was a Red Sox for 50 games, and Jon Lester started 11 games for the A's. Of course, they were traded for each other.

Darren Daulton helped the Marlins get to (and win) the World Series.

Jose Canseco was an Expo for a few weeks in 2002, but didn't play for them. He also had good years with the Rays and White Sox. He played his last MLB game at 36 but he was still slugging. Like Rickey!, he probably had a few more teams left in him if he didn't more or less blacklisted himself out of baseball.

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