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Monday, May 11, 2020

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 5-11-2020

Pittsburgh Press, May 11, 1920:

CAN RUTH REACH CRAVATH’S MARK?

While it is true that Babe Ruth last season set a new world’s record for home runs in a single season, the Yankee slugger still has a long distance to go before he will equal the lifetime record of Gavvy Cravath, manager of the Phillies, who has been hitting homers and other extra drives since away back in 1903.

His biggest season was 1911 with Minneapolis, when he clouted 29 circuit smashes. With the Phillies in 1915 he made 24…Ruth has been playing professional ball for five seasons, and in that time he has made 49 circuit smashes, including his record, 29 last season. His record was not particularly impressive until 1919, and it remains to be seen just what he will do this year.

1919 was a fluke. There’s no way Ruth will last long enough to catch Cravath. If you include the PCL and American Association, Gavvy has 217 career home runs!

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: May 11, 2020 at 10:05 AM | 45 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: May 11, 2020 at 10:08 AM (#5949339)
A good pitching staff on today's Birthday Team, but they'll be throwing to an inexperienced catcher. Trent Hubbard caught a total of three innings in his MLB career, which is three more than anyone else born on May 11 has caught. I feel bad for Hubbard - not only will he have to catch every inning of every game, but he'll also be catching Bobby Witt, who spent the first five or six seasons of his career throwing 95 MPH fastballs but not really having any idea where they were going.

C: Trent Hubbard (0.1 WAR)
1B: Dane Iorg (0.3 WAR)
2B: Charlie Gehringer (83.8 WAR)
3B: Jim Connor (0.5 WAR)
SS/Manager: Frank Quilici (-0.5 WAR)
LF: Gene Hermanski (11.0 WAR)
CF: Jerry Martin (2.3 WAR)
RF: Miguel Sano (7.8 WAR)

SP: Milt Pappas (43.7 WAR)
SP: Rip Sewell (26.8 WAR)
SP: Bobby Witt (14.6 WAR)
SP: Walt Terrell (10.7 WAR)
SP: Monty Kennedy (6.9 WAR)
RP: Francisco Cordero (16.9 WAR)

Umpire: Nestor Chylak
Broadcaster: Fred Hoey
Designated Australian: Cameron Cairncross (0.2 WAR)
Not that one: Roy Clark
Not that one/Pioneer: Bill Bean
Writer: Jack Lang
   2. puck Posted: May 11, 2020 at 11:27 AM (#5949356)
Seems like we should note the passing of Jerry Stiller.

"What the hell did you trade Jay Buhner for ?!"

Phelps had some pretty good numbers w/Seattle.
   3. Itchy Row Posted: May 11, 2020 at 11:35 AM (#5949358)
100 years ago this morning, Ruth was hitting .210/.290/.371 with 2 HR in 69 PA. He hit .402/.564/.922 with 52 HR the rest of the way, starting with 2 HR and a triple in the May 11 game.
   4. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 12:54 PM (#5949383)
SP: Milt Pappas (43.7 WAR)

Sure, Pappas is probably best remembered as the guy traded for an "old 30" Frank Robinson, but at the time of the trade, Pappas was just the third pitcher who debuted after WWII to have won 100+ games through his age-26 season. Since then, another 12 pitchers have done it, most recently by an active pitcher.

Who are the other 14 post-WWII pitchers to have won 100+ games through their age 26 seasons? I'll make it easier by putting the year the pitcher recorded his 100th win.

1953
1962
1965 Milt Pappas
1969
1972
1972
1973
1976
1976
1977
1980
1987
1989
2007
2016
   5. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 12:55 PM (#5949384)
The most obscure guy on the list had both his father and a son also play in the MLB.
   6. crict Posted: May 11, 2020 at 12:59 PM (#5949387)
Clayton Kershaw, Doc Gooden, Fernando Valenzuela
   7. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:03 PM (#5949388)
Clayton Kershaw, Doc Gooden, Fernando Valenzuela

No on Kershaw (98), yes on Doc and Fernando.

1953
1962
1965 Milt Pappas
1969
1972
1972
1973
1976
1976
1977
1980
1987 Fernando Valenzuela
1989 Doc Gooden
2007
2016
   8. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:05 PM (#5949389)
Gooden had the most wins through age 26 (132) since Walter Johnson, who had a mind-boggling 179.
   9. Itchy Row Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:08 PM (#5949391)
I'm pretty sure of Bert Blyleven. Did Sabathia make it to 100 in time? If not CC, then is 2007 Mark Buehrle?
   10. AndrewJ Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:08 PM (#5949392)
Drysdale?
   11. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:11 PM (#5949394)
Yes on Blyleven, yes on Sabathia.

Yes on Drysdale, no on Steve Trout(!?). I guess the grandfather-son thing, with Mike Trout being the son?

1953
1962 Don Drysdale
1965 Milt Pappas
1969
1972
1972
1973
1976 Bert Blyleven
1976
1977
1980
1987 Fernando Valenzuela
1989 Doc Gooden
2007 C.C. Sabathia
2016
   12. Nasty Nate Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:13 PM (#5949395)
Bob Feller?
Steve Carlton?
   13. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:13 PM (#5949396)
Denny McLain

he had 117 wins thru age 26 and 14 thereafter
   14. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:14 PM (#5949398)
For the record, Steve Trout had 60 wins through his age-26 season, which is pretty good, and 82 for his carer.

His old man, Dizzy, only had 21 wins through age 26, but then won another 149 games after that.
   15. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:16 PM (#5949399)
Bob Feller?
Steve Carlton?

Denny McLain

No on Feller and Carlton (Feller debuted in the 1930s), yes on McLain.

Carlton's first 20-win year was his age-26 season in 1971, giving him 77 wins.

1953
1962 Don Drysdale
1965 Milt Pappas
1969 Denny McLain
1972
1972
1973
1976 Bert Blyleven
1976
1977
1980
1987 Fernando Valenzuela
1989 Doc Gooden
2007 C.C. Sabathia
2016
   16. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:19 PM (#5949401)
Roger Clemens (although I think that would have been later than 1980 so he doesn't fit there)
Jim Bunning
Jim Palmer
   17. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:19 PM (#5949402)
among those who started young and kind of flamed out you have Gullett and Vida Blue
   18. Sweatpants Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:21 PM (#5949403)
Tom Seaver?
Robin Roberts is my best guess for the 1953 guy, although I don't know if he was up to anything in the majors before 1950.
   19. AndrewJ Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:21 PM (#5949404)
Catfish Hunter?
   20. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:22 PM (#5949407)
Roger Clemens (although I think that would have been later than 1980 so he doesn't fit there)
Jim Bunning
Jim Palmer

Gullett and Vida Blue

No on Clemens and Bunning, yes on Palmer--who reached exactly 100 wins through his age-26 season---Gullett and Blue.

1953
1962 Don Drysdale
1965 Milt Pappas
1969 Denny McLain
1972 Jim Palmer
1972
1973
1976 Bert Blyleven
1976 Vida Blue
1977 Don Gullett
1980
1987 Fernando Valenzuela
1989 Doc Gooden
2007 C.C. Sabathia
2016
   21. JJ1986 Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:23 PM (#5949408)
Is Bumgarner the 2016 one?
   22. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:24 PM (#5949409)
Tom Seaver?
Robin Roberts is my best guess for the 1953 guy

Catfish Hunter?


Yes on Roberts and Hunter, no on Seaver.

1953 Robin Roberts
1962 Don Drysdale
1965 Milt Pappas
1969 Denny McLain
1972 Jim Palmer
1972 Catfish Hunter
1973
1976 Bert Blyleven
1976 Vida Blue
1977 Don Gullett
1980
1987 Fernando Valenzuela
1989 Doc Gooden
2007 C.C. Sabathia
2016
   23. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:25 PM (#5949414)
Is Bumgarner the 2016 one?

He is!

1953 Robin Roberts
1962 Don Drysdale
1965 Milt Pappas
1969 Denny McLain
1972 Jim Palmer
1972 Catfish Hunter
1973
1976 Bert Blyleven
1976 Vida Blue
1977 Don Gullett
1980
1987 Fernando Valenzuela
1989 Doc Gooden
2007 C.C. Sabathia
2016 Madison Bumgarner

The two left are the obscure one, and a guy who ended up with 240 career wins.
   24. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:27 PM (#5949415)
The obscure one had multiple 20-win seasons, struck out 200+ batters three times, and led the league in HBP twice and WP once and had a season with 158 walks.
   25. The Mighty Quintana Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:28 PM (#5949416)
'80 - Eck?
   26. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:28 PM (#5949417)
Tanana?
   27. Sweatpants Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:28 PM (#5949418)
Joe Coleman?
   28. SoSH U at work Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:29 PM (#5949419)
Guidry?

   29. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:29 PM (#5949420)
Tanana?

Yes, he's the guy with 240 career wins. No on Eck.

1953 Robin Roberts
1962 Don Drysdale
1965 Milt Pappas
1969 Denny McLain
1972 Jim Palmer
1972 Catfish Hunter
1973
1976 Bert Blyleven
1976 Vida Blue
1977 Don Gullett
1980 Frank Tanana
1987 Fernando Valenzuela
1989 Doc Gooden
2007 C.C. Sabathia
2016 Madison Bumgarner
   30. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:31 PM (#5949422)
I see Clayton Kershaw has 98 wins through age 26 (2014).

Is the 1970s one one of those guys in the famous 1970s Orioles rotation? Dave McNally? Scott McGregor?
   31. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:33 PM (#5949425)
Joe Coleman?

Joe Coleman the Obscure is the final answer. He won 62 games for the Tigers in 1971-72-73 while pitching 280+ innings each year (quite typical for the era).

His dad was Joe Coleman Sr, who was a starter for the Philadelphia A's and Orioles in the late '40s and early '50s. His son is Casey Coleman, who pitched with the Cubs from 2010-2012.

1953 Robin Roberts
1962 Don Drysdale
1965 Milt Pappas
1969 Denny McLain
1972 Jim Palmer
1972 Catfish Hunter
1973 Joe Coleman
1976 Bert Blyleven
1976 Vida Blue
1977 Don Gullett
1980 Frank Tanana
1987 Fernando Valenzuela
1989 Doc Gooden
2007 C.C. Sabathia
2016 Madison Bumgarner

   32. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 01:37 PM (#5949427)
The thing almost all these guys have in common is that they debuted in MLB in their age-18 or age-19 season. Sabathia was 20, Roberts was 21.
   33. salvomania Posted: May 11, 2020 at 02:15 PM (#5949441)
And if you want to be a 300-game winner---of which there have been 12 since WWII---you'd best not win your first 100 before age 27. Not one of the guys on the list above won more than 287 (Blyleven), and one (Gullett) won a total of 4 games after his age-26 season.
   34. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 11, 2020 at 02:25 PM (#5949442)
And if you want to be a 300-game winner games---of which there have been 12 since WWII---you'd best not win your first 100 before age 27. Not one of the guys on the list above won more than 287 (Blyleven), and one (Gullett) won a total of 4 games after his age-26 season.


in the live ball era 28 pitchers had 150 wins by age 30--4 finished with >300

24 pitchers had 150 wins after age 30--13 finished with >300

you need a finishing kick
   35. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 11, 2020 at 02:28 PM (#5949445)
Gullett had 100 wins by age 26, and finished his career with 109. The Reds of the early 1970s loved those teenage pitchers. I was expecting to see Gary Nolan here, since he won 14 as a 19-year-old, but he had just 77 at age 26. They also had Milt Wilcox up at age 20, and Wayne Simpson and Ross Grimsley up at 21.
   36. Snowboy Posted: May 11, 2020 at 04:56 PM (#5949488)
Who are the other 14 post-WWII pitchers to have won 100+ games through their age 26 seasons?


Finally, a question that affects Frank Tanana.
Thx, salvomania.
   37. Itchy Row Posted: May 11, 2020 at 05:19 PM (#5949489)
Bumgarner will be the last for a while. The leading current 26-year-olds, through last year's age 25 season, are Jose Berrios with 43 wins and Luis Severino with 42. German Marquez is the leading 25-year-old with 38.
   38. Walt Davis Posted: May 11, 2020 at 05:48 PM (#5949497)
The Reds' fixation goes back at least a bit further. Jim Maloney debuted at age 20 in 1960, 91 wins (and 124 ERA+ and over 8 K/9) through 26. He didn't officially break until age 30 although his 5.1 K/9 at 29 suggests he was already broken. Granted, I'm not sure there was anything special about the Reds in that era, maybe every team would have had these guys up at 19-20.
   39. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 11, 2020 at 07:17 PM (#5949536)
The Orioles of the late 50s early 60s gave Pappas a full load at 19, McNally at 20, Wally Bunker at 19, and Estrada and Steve Barber at 22. It was common at the time
   40. Mayor Blomberg Posted: May 11, 2020 at 07:27 PM (#5949537)
Palmer at 20 as well, and he pitched 80 more innings than McNally
   41. SoSH U at work Posted: May 11, 2020 at 07:36 PM (#5949543)

The Reds' fixation goes back at least a bit further.



To 1944, by my reckoning.
   42. Walt Davis Posted: May 11, 2020 at 08:21 PM (#5949567)
Yeah, but Nuxhall got the next 7 seasons off. :-) His 2/3 of an inning pitched in a 13-0 game (18-0 by the time he left) probably didn't set back his career too much.

Back to the intro though ... has Dan ever done a ZiPS career projection for Ruth ca 1919? ZiPS wouldn't know about the live ball. Of course, as it happened, Cravath had just 1 HR left and Ruth would pass him in 1921.

What else we got to do with our time than discuss projections of great players from age 23 onwards?
   43. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 11, 2020 at 09:10 PM (#5949598)
but Nuxhall got the next 7 seasons off

that would be approximately 1078 days of rest, which would probably be the record except for Finley's spectacle with Satchel Paige
   44. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 11, 2020 at 10:05 PM (#5949603)
that would be approximately 1078 days of rest, which would probably be the record except for Finley's spectacle with Satchel Paige.


Paul Schreiber pitched for the Dodgers against the Phillies on September 2, 1923. His next MLB appearance would be for the Yankees against the Tigers on September 4, 1945. That's 8039 days of rest.
   45. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 11, 2020 at 10:18 PM (#5949609)
touche

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