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Tuesday, June 25, 2019

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 6-25-2019

I’m on vacation this week and don’t have a ton of time to dig around in old newspapers. So let’s go back 33 years instead of 100:

[Allentown] Morning Call, June 26, 1986:

The Steve Carlton era is over.

It became official at 10 a.m. yesterday [June 25] at a press conference at Veterans Stadium: Phillies President Bill Giles, appearing alone, his voice cracking and his eyes filled with tears, told the hastily-gathered media that, after trying unsuccessfully to convince the brilliant 41-year old lefthander to retire voluntarily, he had decided to release him.

I can understand why a competitor like Carlton would have wanted to avoid retirement. But he was pretty much done at this point.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: June 25, 2019 at 09:30 AM | 58 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 25, 2019 at 09:57 AM (#5855620)
Carlton chose not to retire at that point. He pitched for four more teams, going 11-21 with a 5.58 ERA, before the Twins finally released him for good on April 28, 1988, nearly two years later. His final major league appearance was a start against the Indians in which he gave up nine runs in five innings.
   2. Sweatpants Posted: June 25, 2019 at 10:05 AM (#5855623)
His final major league appearance was a start against the Indians in which he gave up nine runs in five innings.
...thereby lowering his ERA for that season, from 19.29 to a more palatable 16.26.
   3. Itchy Row Posted: June 25, 2019 at 10:31 AM (#5855631)
The 1986 White Sox weren't very good, so by August they'd started talking about how young the team was. Then they signed 41-year-old Steve Carlton (who actually pitched pretty well for them) and George Foster, who was officially 37 but was more done than Carlton was. The season ended up with Ken Harrelson getting replaced as GM by Larry Himes. That led to the Sox drafting Frank Thomas, but it also led to 30 more years of the Hawk announcing.
   4. Kiko Sakata Posted: June 25, 2019 at 11:46 AM (#5855658)
FYI: In case you missed it somewhere else on the Web, Retrosheet did their (our) semi-annual release yesterday, which hits a big milestone: partial play-by-play data were released for 1919 and 1920, giving us a RetroCentury of play-by-play data - 1919 - 2018. Box scores were also extended back to 1905 (114 years) and deduced games were released for 1934, 1935, and 1936, giving us 85 years of complete play-by-play counting deduced games (1934 - 2018) - at the other end, the last two deduced games for 1973 were converted to event files (i.e., Retrosheet found scorecards for the two games and entered them), so we have complete event files for every game from 1973 - 2018 (46 years).
   5. PreservedFish Posted: June 25, 2019 at 11:55 AM (#5855662)
That led to the Sox drafting Frank Thomas, but it also led to 30 more years of the Hawk announcing.


Oof. Tough call there.
   6. The Mighty Quintana Posted: June 25, 2019 at 12:38 PM (#5855678)
Enjoy your vacation... Today's team has bats!

C: Mike Stanley (20.9 WAR)
1B: Joe Kuhel (26.6 WAR)
2B: Michael Tucker (8.1 WAR)
3B: Aramis Ramirez (32.6 WAR)
SS: Barney White (0.0 WAR)
LF: Carlos Delgado (44.4 WAR)
CF: Don Demeter (12.9 WAR)
RF: Luke Scott (11.9 WAR)

SP: Aaron Sele (20.1 WAR)
SP: Dick Drago (19.1 WAR)
SP: Paul Maholm (11.9 WAR)
SP: Bob Shirley (9.7 WAR)
SP: Clay Kirby (7.0 WAR)
RP: Alejandro Pena (15.5 WAR)
RP: Daniel Bard (4.1 WAR)
   7. caspian88 Posted: June 25, 2019 at 12:56 PM (#5855687)
That defense is going to be fun to watch.

Delgado was a -24 Rtot/year in 1994 was a left fielder. Mike Stanley threw out 24% of steal attempts against a league average 32%. Aramis Ramirez wasn't great shakes. Michael Tucker was an outfielder.
   8. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: June 25, 2019 at 01:06 PM (#5855689)
the last two deduced games for 1973 were converted to event files (i.e., Retrosheet found scorecards for the two games and entered them)

WOW!! I did not notice that fact if David included it in his email. I figured the (relative) recency of these games combined with the fact that scoresheets had not been located yet meant they'd be lost for good. If it was a single source who had them, then hopefully they've got other years too because -- IIRC -- a bunch of those missing scorecards from late 60's through early 70's were for games involving Atlanta, Houston, and/or Pittsburgh.
   9. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 25, 2019 at 01:41 PM (#5855697)
I had no idea that there were games as recent as 1973 that we didn't have scoresheets for. According to the Retrosheet site (which hasn't been updated in a while), the moat recent missing game was from September 29, 1973, the next-to-last day of the season, between the Astros and Braves. Despite it being a random late-season game between two non-contenders, you'd think people wold have been paying attention: Hank Aaron hit his 713th career homer that day, and could have conceivably hit 714 and 715 as well.
   10. Hysterical & Useless Posted: June 25, 2019 at 01:58 PM (#5855705)
Carlton chose not to retire at that point

My recollection is that Lefty had made some bad investments and was facing a less-than-comfortable retirement. He needed to keep working and was lucky enough that teams were willing to keep giving him a chance for another 2 years.
   11. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:19 PM (#5855715)
My recollection is that Lefty had made some bad investments and was facing a less-than-comfortable retirement.
He really believed in what ACME Tinfoil Helmets was doing, but much to his surprise, demand would not significantly increase among the general U.S. population until the mid-2010s.
   12. Itchy Row Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:33 PM (#5855724)
Pat Jordan's 1994 article about Carlton has this about his money. It also has some other stuff about Carlton.

Carlton didn't need a publisher's money, or a sponsor's, because he had a personal agent who promised to make him so rich that when he retired he could do nothing but fish and hunt. He had his salary checks sent directly to the agent, David Landfield, who invested them in oil and gas leases, car dealerships and Florida swampland. Since Carlton couldn't be bothered with the checks and often had no idea exactly how big they were, Landfield simply sent him a monthly allowance, as if he were a child. These monthly allotments would be all Carlton would ever see out of his $10 million. Not one of Landfield's investments for him ever made a cent. By 1983, all the money was gone.


   13. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:42 PM (#5855729)
Another week, another decade.......

Done this for the 2010s, 2000s, and 1990s. Let's try the 1980s.

BASEBALL TRIVIA TIME

Listed below are 18 offensive categories. Can you name the cumulative leader in any of them for the 1980s?

Two players led in four categories each. One guy led in two categories. Eight guys led in one category each.

For all guesses, please list the player & the category you think he led in.

G -
PA -
AB -
H -
2B -
3B -
HR -
R -
RBI -
BB -
IBB -
K -
SB -
CS -
GIDP -
SF -
SH -
HBP -

Any guesses?
   14. The Run Fairy Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:46 PM (#5855730)
Rickey in steals, caught stealing, runs, walks?
   15. SoSH U at work Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:47 PM (#5855732)
Rice in GIDP and RBI.

   16. Nasty Nate Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:47 PM (#5855733)
HBP - Don Baylor
2B - Wade Boggs
Cal Ripken for G/PA/AB and one other thing?
   17. Nasty Nate Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:48 PM (#5855734)
Hey the 3 of us posted simultaneously and tried for completely different categories!
   18. SoSH U at work Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:48 PM (#5855736)
Gwynn in hits?

   19. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:49 PM (#5855737)
Post #14:
DING!
DING!
DING!
DING!

That's one of the two guys who led in four categories. You got all Rickey's four.

His SB total (838) and CS (190) are each the most by anyone in one specific decade.

   20. SoSH U at work Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:50 PM (#5855738)
Eddie Murray in home runs.

   21. Kiko Sakata Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:50 PM (#5855740)
I had no idea that there were games as recent as 1973 that we didn't have scoresheets for. According to the Retrosheet site (which hasn't been updated in a while), the moat recent missing game was from September 29, 1973, the next-to-last day of the season, between the Astros and Braves. Despite it being a random late-season game between two non-contenders, you'd think people wold have been paying attention: Hank Aaron hit his 713th career homer that day, and could have conceivably hit 714 and 715 as well.


That game still remains on Retrosheet's "most wanted" list. We have a play-by-play account for that game, but it has generic outs. So, if you look at the "play-by-play" - here - there's a lot of "out on an unknown play". The two games that were promoted from "deduced" to "event" were also Braves games (vs. the Padres, I believe) where the previous account had been guessed at based on newspaper accounts. The line between "deduced" and "event" is kind of gray and blurry in a lot of cases.
   22. SoSH U at work Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:51 PM (#5855741)
Boggs in doubles.
   23. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:53 PM (#5855742)
Post 15:
Rice for RBI? Nope. It was a guy from the same division as Rice, thoguh.
Rice for GIDP? DING! 224. That's the most by anyone in one specific decade.

That's the only category Rice led in.

Post 16:
HBP - Baylor? DING! 160. It's the only category Baylor led in.
2B - Boggs? Nope. Boggs leads in no categories. Too late a start.
Ripken? Led in no categories - too late a start. BUT - one guy led in G and AB and PA. And one other thing.

Post #18:
Gwynn - H? Nope. Another guy who missed the first few years of the decade. Leads in none of them.

   24. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:54 PM (#5855743)
Post #20:
Murray for HR? Nope. But you might want to thing about Eddie Murray some more, because his name is on the leaderboard.
   25. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:56 PM (#5855744)
BUT - one guy led in G and AB and PA. And one other thing.
And that guy was Dale Murphy?
   26. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:56 PM (#5855745)
Post #22:
Nope. Boggs was 2nd in doubles. Not bad for a guy who didn't debut until 1982.
   27. SoSH U at work Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:57 PM (#5855746)
Murray for HR? Nope. But you might want to thing about Eddie Murray some more, because his name is on the leaderboard.


RBIs?

   28. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 02:59 PM (#5855748)
Post #25:
DING! Dale Murphy led in games, PA, and AB. He played in over 700 consecutive games during the decade and was a starter all decade long. What else could this two-time MVP have led the league in?

Well, that's half the leaders named. So here's the list, as guessed through post #26:

G - Dale Murphy, 1537. ELRoy Face
PA - Dale Murphy, 6541. ELRoy Face
AB - Dale Murphy, 5694. ELRoy Face
H -
2B -
3B -
HR -
R - Rickey!, 1,122. The Run Fairy
RBI -
BB - Rickey!, 962. The Run Fairy
IBB -
K -
SB - Rickey!, 838. The Run Fairy
CS - Rickey!, 190. The Run Fairy
GIDP - Fearsome Jim Rice, 224. SoSH
SF -
SH -
HBP - Don Baylor, 160. Nasty Nate
   29. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:01 PM (#5855749)
Post #27:
DING! Eddie Murphy's 996 RBIs topped the decade. Two guys (one Dale Murphy, the other a guy who hasn't been named yet who led the league in a different category) were tied at second with 929.

   30. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:01 PM (#5855750)
What else could this two-time MVP have led the league in?
HR

Raines for 3B?
   31. stanmvp48 Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:02 PM (#5855751)
Winfield for home runs? Probably too old
   32. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:03 PM (#5855752)
Ks...Reggie Jackson? Did he play enough?
   33. SoSH U at work Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:03 PM (#5855754)
Willie Wilson for triples?

   34. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:05 PM (#5855756)
Post #30:
HR: Nope. You guessed the wrong two-time NL MVP winner for HR leader.

Raines for triples. Nope. Actually, I thought this would be an easy one. This guy didn't steal as many bags as Raines or Rickey!, but he was always known as a very speedy player. I might be biased because one of the first years I started paying attention to league leaders, this guy hit over 20 triples in a season. (As a result, I always expect triples leader to have 20 or more in a year).

Post #31:
Nope, not Winfield. The guy is a first-ballot Hall of Famer, though.
   35. stanmvp48 Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:05 PM (#5855757)
Willie Wilson for triples
   36. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:07 PM (#5855758)
Post #32:
Reggie for Ks? Nope. Didn't play enough. The K leader's name has been mentioned more than once on this page so far. That's a hint.

Post #33:
DING! Willie Wilson hit 115 triples, the most by anyone in a decade since the 1920s's leader got 133.

   37. SoSH U at work Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:07 PM (#5855759)
Schmidt for HR.
Also for Ks.
   38. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:07 PM (#5855760)
Fun fact: all remaining answers are Hall of Famers.

So don't go overthinking things.
   39. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:07 PM (#5855761)
Schmidt for hr
   40. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:08 PM (#5855762)
Robin Yount for doubles?
Robin Yount for hits?
   41. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:09 PM (#5855763)
Post 37:
Schmidt for HR? DING! That's the only category he led in.

The guy who led in two categories? First ballot Hall of Famer, MVP (2 MVPs, I think), and a 3,000 hit club guy. No one's mentioned him yet at all.

   42. SoSH U at work Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:10 PM (#5855764)
Brett for doubles and hits.

Edit:
probably Crispix's answer).
   43. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:11 PM (#5855765)
Paul Molitor for doubles?
Paul Molitor for hits?

I always see him and Robin Yount as synonyms.
   44. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:11 PM (#5855766)
CORRECTION to post #38:

All the guys remaining are Hall of Famers ... or Dale Murphy. You're still missing his 4th category (Though people have recently guessed someone else for the category he led).

Post #40:
Yount for H & 2B? DING! & DING!

All that's left: IBB, K, SF, and SH.

   45. SoSH U at work Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:11 PM (#5855767)
Dale Murphy for Ks? I can't think of anyone else.
   46. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:12 PM (#5855768)
Post #42:
Brett for 2B & H? Nope - BUT I suggest you play around with Brett a bit more. His name is on the leaderboard. As is Dale Murphy.

And two other Hall of Famers. One Hall of Famer won an MVP during the decade - it's an MVP that few sabermetrically inclined find at all deserving. The other Hall of Famer is more known for his glove than his bat.
   47. SoSH U at work Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:13 PM (#5855769)
Winfield for SF.
Ozzie for SH.
   48. Ken Griffey Junior Bacon Cheeseburger Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:13 PM (#5855770)
Ozzie Smith for SH?
   49. SoSH U at work Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:14 PM (#5855771)
Brett for IBB?

   50. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:14 PM (#5855772)
SF - Dawson
IBB - Brett
SH - Ozzie Smith
K - Reggie Jackson?
   51. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:14 PM (#5855773)
Post #45:
DING! Dale Murphy fanned 1,268 times. That was a lot back then. The only other guys over 1,000 were Dewey Evans (1,023) and Lloyd Moseby (1,015).

IBB, SF, SH.

Brett and two other Hall of Famers to name.

   52. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:15 PM (#5855774)
Post 47
Ozzie? DING!

Post 49:
Brett? DING!

Post 50:
Dawson? DING!

That closes it out. This is the fastest one of these we've ever had. Three guys holding 10 of the 18 spots helped.

G - Dale Murphy, 1537. ELRoy Face
PA - Dale Murphy, 6541. ELRoy Face
AB - Dale Murphy, 5694. ELRoy Face
H - Robin Yount, 1731. Crispix
2B - Robin Young, 337. Crispix
3B - Willie Wilson, 115. SoSH
HR - Mike Schmidt, 313. SoSH
R - Rickey!, 1,122. The Run Fairy
RBI - Eddie Murray, 996. SoSH
BB - Rickey!, 962. The Run Fairy
IBB - George Brett, 148. SoSH
K - Dale Murphy, 1268. SoSH
SB - Rickey!, 838. The Run Fairy
CS - Rickey!, 190. The Run Fairy
GIDP - Fearsome Jim Rice, 224. SoSH
SF - Andre Dawson, 74. Don Augustus
SH - Ozzie Smith, 110. SoSH
HBP - Don Baylor, 160. Nasty Nate
   53. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:17 PM (#5855775)
Post #45:
DING! Dale Murphy fanned 1,268 times. That was a lot back then. The only other guys over 1,000 were Dewey Evans (1,023) and Lloyd Moseby (1,015).


Reggie retired after 1987. he was 4th for the decade (991)
   54. stanmvp48 Posted: June 25, 2019 at 03:51 PM (#5855784)
Dale Berra led the league in IBB in 1983!!
   55. The Mighty Quintana Posted: June 25, 2019 at 04:53 PM (#5855811)
In fairness to Rice, having Wade Boggs and Dwight Evans get on base 600 times a year in front of you (combined with their lack of speed down to 2nd) is gonna lead to a few GIDPs.
   56. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 25, 2019 at 06:39 PM (#5855847)
Dale Berra led the league in IBB in 1983!!

Even more surprisingly, two of the 19 did not come when he was batting 8th.
   57. Itchy Row Posted: June 26, 2019 at 11:45 AM (#5856010)
Even more surprisingly, two of the 19 did not come when he was batting 8th.
And they were in same game against the Hall of Fame pitcher mentioned in the intro to the thread. The on-deck hitter was Marvell Wynne.

Dale Berra hit about as well against Steve Carlton as you'd expect- .115/.193/.173 in 59 PA.
   58. Rennie's Tenet Posted: June 26, 2019 at 12:09 PM (#5856032)
It looks like Berra was 4-43 against Carlton before the two walks were issued. Wynne was a rookie. He walked the first time to force in a run.

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