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Tuesday, June 02, 2020

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 6-2-2020

Bridgeport Times, June 2, 1920:

The charges made by the Chicago Cubs that Lee Magee was guilty of betting against his own club and that he played dishonest baseball, has attracted much attention among the fans. If the charges are true the game is well rid of Magee. The question now being asked is why were Heine Zimmerman and Hal Chase, of the New York Giants dropped. Their exit from baseball came about the same time as Lee Magee’s. If these players are guiltless of wrongdoing, their reputations should be set right with the fans.

Oh, don’t worry, their reputations weren’t unjustly tarnished.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: June 02, 2020 at 10:16 AM | 37 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: June 02, 2020 at 10:18 AM (#5954894)
Decent pitching, but not much in the way of offense on today's Birthday Team. Raul Ibanez was a nice enough player, but he's not going to cause anybody to lose sleep.

C: Jack O'Connor (9.0 WAR)
1B: Raul Ibanez (20.9 WAR)
2B: Horace Clarke (15.7 WAR)
3B: Jerry Lumpe (15.4 WAR)
SS: Neifi Perez (2.6 WAR)
LF: Charlie Jones (3.3 WAR)
CF: Bob Saverine (1.9 WAR)
RF: Lou Skizas (1.6 WAR)

SP: Larry Jackson (52.0 WAR)
SP: Jim Maloney (37.5 WAR)
SP: Sloppy Thurston (15.8 WAR)
SP: Tim Stauffer (3.8 WAR)
SP: Reid Cornelius (0.7 WAR)
RP: Mike Stanton (14.3 WAR)
RP: Bryan Harvey (12.3 WAR)
RP: Jared Burton (4.7 WAR)

Manager: Bob Lillis
Not that one: Chris Martin
Stick: Gene Michael
   2. PreservedFish Posted: June 02, 2020 at 10:47 AM (#5954895)
I kinda forgot about Neifi Perez. Remarkably, BR now sees him as a 3.2 WAR player in his year and a half on the Cubs, the subject of much disgruntled commentary on this website.
   3. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: June 02, 2020 at 11:05 AM (#5954897)
Neifi can't hit! Defense can't be measured! Replace him with Matt Murton!
   4. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: June 02, 2020 at 11:20 AM (#5954899)
With a nondescript team like this, Ibanez has to be in the outfield for entertainment purposes.
   5. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 02, 2020 at 11:33 AM (#5954900)
With a nondescript team like this, Ibanez has to be in the outfield for entertainment purposes

BRef has him 8th worst defensive outfielder ever based on dWAR (-17.3)

2B: Horace Clarke (15.7 WAR)

that's almost twice as much WAR as his far more celebrated predecessor (Richardson ended up with 8.1)

   6. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 02, 2020 at 11:34 AM (#5954901)
Remarkably, BR now sees him as a 3.2 WAR player in his year and a half on the Cubs, the subject of much disgruntled commentary on this website.
He still sucks. I don't care what your newer-fangled stats say.
   7. Itchy Row Posted: June 02, 2020 at 11:38 AM (#5954902)
If Neifi's Cub years hadn't dragged him above replacement level, the Clarke and Stick double play combination would be reunited.
   8. PreservedFish Posted: June 02, 2020 at 11:46 AM (#5954904)
Neifi just barely edges Hee-Seop Choi in career WAR.
   9. SoSH U at work Posted: June 02, 2020 at 11:53 AM (#5954907)
Remarkably, BR now sees him as a 3.2 WAR player in his year and a half on the Cubs, the subject of much disgruntled commentary on this website.


History, in general, has not been kind to the Cubs' fans caterwauling about Dusty's foibles.
   10. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 02, 2020 at 12:01 PM (#5954909)
History, in general, has not been kind to the Cubs' fans caterwauling about Dusty's foibles.
Huh?? Bunting in the first inning, leaving young star pitchers in to throw 140 pitches when you’re up by 9 runs, and pinch-hitting with Jose Macias have all been pretty conclusively proven to be Bad Ideas.

Also, I believe the scientific consensus does not support his theories with regard to skin pigmentation and performance during day games.
   11. SoSH U at work Posted: June 02, 2020 at 12:16 PM (#5954914)
Huh?? Bunting in the first inning, leaving young star pitchers in to throw 140 pitches when you’re up by 9 runs, and pinch-hitting with Jose Macias have all been pretty conclusively proven to be Bad Ideas.


Matt Murton played more often, and better, under Dusty than he did any other manager.

Neifi was a perfectly respectable starter there.

None of the young players you were clamoring for were worth a ####, as the rest of their careers demonstrated.

He didn't employ the sac bunt meaningfully more than other NL teams (ranging from third to sixth in his four seasons. Too often, but not OMG too much).

I'll give you overusing Prior that one time; that was inexcusable. It might even have contributed to the chronic physical breakdowns he experienced. Might have.

And I don't recall the tragic instance of Jose Macias pinch hitting, so I'll just concede it was a colossal blunder.

The point still stands.

   12. Ron J Posted: June 02, 2020 at 12:36 PM (#5954915)
#5 Isn't Horace Clarke really Bobby Richardson with some stolen bases?
   13. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 02, 2020 at 12:43 PM (#5954916)
It's not about the subsequent performance of the particular young players - it's that he had a categorical and irrational bias in favor of veteran mediocrity (or worse) over virtually any young player.

It's that he thought it was a good idea to have players of Jose Macias' caliber on the major league roster (not limited to Macias at all), and used them in roles that included pinch-hitting. He overused young pitchers more often than just the one glaring Prior game. Bad idea, whether it directly led to breakdown in particular cases or not. He thought bunting was a good strategy in spite of all the data to the contrary. Yes, other managers were even worse, and if that were his only flaw, it wouldn't be that big a deal. But the totality of the Dusty Experience at the time was that he didn't make decisions based on the relevant data. That philosophy certainly hasn't aged well.

To say nothing of the "we're the victims of the mean ol' press and broadcasters" mentality that he allowed/encouraged to foment in the clubhouse.
   14. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: June 02, 2020 at 12:52 PM (#5954918)
To say nothing of the "we're the victims of the mean ol' press and broadcasters" mentality that he allowed/encouraged to foment in the clubhouse.


If he was an early adopter of this strategy, Dusty should have aimed higher than "manager of the Chicago Cubs".
   15. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 02, 2020 at 01:06 PM (#5954920)
#5 Isn't Horace Clarke really Bobby Richardson with some stolen bases?

BRef has him better pretty much across the board--14.1 to 8.2 oWAR, 6.2 to 4.9 dWAR, 22 to 10 Rbaser, and -0.2 to -9.1 WAA
   16. SoSH U at work Posted: June 02, 2020 at 01:17 PM (#5954922)
It's not about the subsequent performance of the particular young players - it's that he had a categorical and irrational bias in favor of veteran mediocrity (or worse) over virtually any young player.


Except, as I note, history doesn't bear this out. Throughout the entirety of his managerial career, including his time with the Cubs, he gave opportunities to players who could actually play. He didn't waste a lot of time with guys who couldn't. And he never failed to give an opportunity to someone who later proved himself useful under another skipper. Ever.

He has a rather strong track record in this regard.

It's that he thought it was a good idea to have players of Jose Macias' caliber on the major league roster (not limited to Macias at all), and used them in roles that included pinch-hitting.


I have no idea who was responsible for his roster construction. If he chose Jose Macias over a better option, that's on him. If Hendry gave him Macias, well, then he's probably going to use him from time to time.

He overused young pitchers more often than just the one glaring Prior game. Bad idea, whether it directly led to breakdown in particular cases or not.


Well, it didn't. And he doesn't really have a track record of shredding more arms than any other manager, including his time in Chicago.

He thought bunting was a good strategy in spite of all the data to the contrary.


He bunted too much.

But the totality of the Dusty Experience at the time was that he didn't make decisions based on the relevant data. That philosophy certainly hasn't aged well.


And the totality of the Cubs fan experience under Dusty is that many of the things you guys were ######## about weren't accurate, as I noted. That hasn't aged well either.

I didn't say all of the things. I didn't say he was without flaws. Just, "in general."

To say nothing of the "we're the victims of the mean ol' press and broadcasters" mentality that he allowed/encouraged to foment in the clubhouse.


No argument there.

I don't think he did a very good job in Chicago (by far, it was the worst he did in any of his four stops). But if you take a dispassionate look back at what you were guys were saying then and compare it to the record itself, you would realize that you got quite a few things wrong. That's all.
   17. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 02, 2020 at 01:39 PM (#5954928)
I think that a lot of the BBTF criticism of Dusty was due to the stupid things he SAID, rather than what he did (much like Sparky Anderson)
   18. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 02, 2020 at 01:50 PM (#5954929)
If he was an early adopter of this strategy, Dusty should have aimed higher than "manager of the Chicago Cubs".
Touche.
   19. puck Posted: June 02, 2020 at 02:30 PM (#5954940)
Replace him with Matt Murton!


I remember Murton going to Japan but didn't know he played 6 full seasons. Not bad. Lower walk rate and lower ISO there than he had in MLB though, .790 OPS in his 6 seasons. Looks like the central league OPS was .720 one of those seasons but in most it was below .700, sometimes well below (.642, .648).
   20. Jeff R. Posted: June 02, 2020 at 02:44 PM (#5954941)
I'm kind of stunned that Bryan Harvey only had a 6-year career, would have thought it was longer. Wikipedia claims he had a low-90's fastball, which seems like an understatement. That forkball, though--absolutely wicked.
   21. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 02, 2020 at 02:54 PM (#5954945)
2B: Horace Clarke (15.7 WAR)

that's almost twice as much WAR as his far more celebrated predecessor (Richardson ended up with 8.1)
Poor Horace was just good enough to stay in the line-up for the entire ‘CBS Era’, a sad time in Yankees history. He gets more blame than he deserves for the dismal results.
   22. Jack Sommers Posted: June 02, 2020 at 02:57 PM (#5954947)
A little surprised at Clark's WAR total

Very durable for a stretch. So lots of replacement runs for showing up. From 1967-1973 he had the 5th most PA in all of MLB, behind only Brock, Rose, Williams, and Kessinger during that span. (9th highest Games played). 15.1 WAR but -0.6 WAA.



   23. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 02, 2020 at 03:19 PM (#5954951)
Poor Horace was just good enough to stay in the line-up for the entire ‘CBS Era’, a sad time in Yankees history. He gets more blame than he deserves for the dismal results.

it always struck me as unfair that it became known as the Horace Clarke era--he was one of many whose Yankee career happened to coincide with the franchise's decline--it could just as easily be called the Fritz Peterson era or the Jake Gibbs era
   24. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: June 02, 2020 at 03:21 PM (#5954953)
What do we call the other brief period of Yankee futility? I think of it as the Danny Tartabull era.
   25. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: June 02, 2020 at 03:25 PM (#5954954)
I remember Murton going to Japan but didn't know he played 6 full seasons. Not bad. Lower walk rate and lower ISO there than he had in MLB though, .790 OPS in his 6 seasons. Looks like the central league OPS was .720 one of those seasons but in most it was below .700, sometimes well below (.642, .648).

Murton broke Ichiro's single-season hits record in his first NPB season. Suppose it's not a total surprise that Big Ginger transitioned well to Japan.
   26. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 02, 2020 at 03:26 PM (#5954955)
he probably wasn't around long enough but I think of it as the Stump Merrill era
   27. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: June 02, 2020 at 03:27 PM (#5954957)
I was trying to remember which Cub prospect back then we were lamenting not getting playing time and Murton came to mind. Of course, it was Hee Seop Choi.
   28. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 02, 2020 at 03:44 PM (#5954961)
that's almost twice as much WAR as his far more celebrated predecessor (Richardson ended up with 8.1)


Richardson got MVP votes in six different seasons. Clarke never got one.
   29. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 02, 2020 at 03:53 PM (#5954965)
Richardson got MVP votes in six different seasons. Clarke never got one.

that says more about the MVP voters than about Richardson
   30. Hysterical & Useless Posted: June 02, 2020 at 04:18 PM (#5954969)
Richardson got MVP votes in six different seasons. Clarke never got one.

Richardson did a much better job of choosing his teammates than Horace.
   31. salvomania Posted: June 02, 2020 at 04:36 PM (#5954979)
SP: Larry Jackson (52.0 WAR)

from yesterday's dugout quiz about pitchers who held #1 starter spot in the 1960s:
Top 5 non-number 1 pitchers in the '60s based on the metric I use to evaluate pitchers based solely on ordinal position in the rankings:

1. Larry Jackson
.....
Jackson has the highest score for anyone who didn't reach #1 in their particular calendar decade, narrowly edging out Eppa Rixey in the '20s.

Jackson won 24 games with the '64 Cubs, and after a bit of a down year in '65 at age 34, was traded to the Phillies after two bad starts to begin the 1966 season.

He rebounded nicely once joining the Phillies, going on to win 15 games with a sub-3.00 ERA, good for 4.4 bWAR, followed by 3.0 and 4.0 bWAR seasons in '67 and '68 before retiring at age 37.

His batterymate for those two starts for the '66 Cubs was rookie Randy Hundley (the catcher on yesterday's birthday team), finally getting a chance with the Cubs after five seasons as a Giants' minor leaguer. Hundley finished 4th in the 1966 NL Rookie of the Year voting, and was one of only seven NL rookies with more than 2.0 bWAR. Three of those seven rookies played for the Cubs: Hundley (2.1), Ken Holtzman (2.2)...and Ferguson Jenkins (3.3), who was the player acquired by the Cubs for Jackson. While Jackson put up a very solid 10.5 WAR in his three seasons with the Phillies, Jenkins put up 14.5 WAR in those same three seasons, and then another 33.8 in his remaining five years as a Cub.

That '66 NL ROTY voting is very odd: Voters could vote for only one player, and six different players got votes; Reds' 2B Tommy Helms (1.4 bWAR, .284/.315/.380) won, with 12 of 20 votes, and three other players with 2.0 or less bWAR (two hitters and a pitcher) received votes. Meanwhile, five different pitchers put up at least 2.2 bWAR and received no votes---including Jenkins and Holtzman, mentioned above---and the NL rookie WAR leader, Don Sutton (3.5 bWAR) got skunked despite making 35 starts with a 2.99 ERA, 209 K's and a 1.08 WHIP for the pennant-winning Dodgers.
   32. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 02, 2020 at 04:48 PM (#5954981)
What do we call the other brief period of Yankee futility? I think of it as the Danny Tartabull era.
Tartabull's first year with the Yankees was 1992, when they were 76-86 in the last year of their bad run. They were 88-74 in 1993 and finished second, then dominated in 1994 before the strike.

The period you're referring to should be called Barfield-Hawkins.
   33. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 02, 2020 at 04:51 PM (#5954982)
The period you're referring to should be called Barfield-Hawkins.

that sounds like a tariff agreement
   34. Itchy Row Posted: June 02, 2020 at 05:51 PM (#5954998)
It could be named for Mel Hall and Luis Polonia, but that would be really unfair to Horace Clarke.
   35. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 02, 2020 at 06:11 PM (#5955002)
Jackson won 24 games with the '64 Cubs, and after a bit of a down year in '65 at age 34, was traded to the Phillies after two bad starts to begin the 1966 season.


Jackson was a workhorse, and very consistent - he had an ERA+ of at least 96 in every year he was in someone's rotation, and only once was it below 109. He could have been a Hall of Famer, if not for two things:

1) He got a late start, as salvo's post hints at. He didn't really become a full-time starter till he was 28.

2) He pitched for bad teams: the Cardinals during one of their rare down periods, and the Cubs during one of their all-too-common down periods. Put him on the Braves or Dodgers of this era, and he'd have been a regular 20-game winner.
   36. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 02, 2020 at 06:13 PM (#5955004)
Yeah, I was thinking about the "2/3 of the outfield liked underage girls" years as shorthand, but it was a bit unwieldy.
   37. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 02, 2020 at 08:09 PM (#5955019)
Jackson was a workhorse, and very consistent - he had an ERA+ of at least 96 in every year he was in someone's rotation, and only once was it below 109. He could have been a Hall of Famer, if not for two things:

1) He got a late start, as salvo's post hints at. He didn't really become a full-time starter till he was 28.

2) He pitched for bad teams: the Cardinals during one of their rare down periods, and the Cubs during one of their all-too-common down periods. Put him on the Braves or Dodgers of this era, and he'd have been a regular 20-game winner.


He also retired as a still-solid 37-year-old rather than pitch for the Expos after being snapped up in the expansion draft; even though he would have been on an expansion team, the diluted '69 season and following might have allowed him to add some nice padding at the end of his career. (At the very least, he probably would have cleared 200 wins.)

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