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Wednesday, July 14, 2021

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 7-14-2021

Toledo News-Bee, July 14, 1921:

Jim Thorpe did a stunt [in Milwaukee] yesterday that even Babe Ruth might envy. The famous friend of the king of Sweden peeled off three mighty home runs and took the leading role in a frightful mauling handed the Brewers by the Mud Hens. The score was 17 to 4.

I realize it probably couldn’t have happened, given Thorpe’s celebrity, but I do sometimes wonder what kind of big league career he could have had if someone had given him a job and the time to settle in. Thorpe absolutely obliterated the high minors from 1920-1922, but by that point he was in his mid-30s and had been tossed into the scrap heap by the major leagues.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: July 14, 2021 at 08:12 AM | 45 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: July 14, 2021 at 08:14 AM (#6029009)
A strong Bastille Day Birthday Team. Obviously Ventura was a terrific defensive third baseman and if this were a real team, I assume he and Gleason would swap infield corners. But it's not and Gleason never played first base, so this is what we've got.

Lucas Giolito is the fifth starter and I'd say that to his face.

C: Earl Williams (7.9 WAR)
1B/Manager: Robin Ventura (56.1 WAR)
2B: Anderson Pryor (3.2 WAR)
3B/Not that one: Jack Gleason (4.4 WAR)
SS: Jose Hernandez (13.3 WAR)
LF: Dave Harris (6.0 WAR)
CF: Jim Holdsworth (3.0 WAR)
RF: Steve Brady (3.2 WAR)

SP: Tim Hudson (57.9 WAR)
SP: Jesse Tannehill (46.9 WAR)
SP: Bob Purkey (22.9 WAR)
SP: Steve Stone (17.0 WAR)
SP: Lucas Giolito (7.9 WAR)
RP: Johnny Murphy (15.0 WAR)

-4.1 career WAR: Jiggs Parrott (-4.1 WAR)
-4.8 career WAR: Pepe Frias (-4.8 WAR)
Commissioner: Happy Chandler
Fun names: Ed Hug, Happy Smith, Law Daniels
Inspiration for a Costner character: Crash Davis
   2. Ron J Posted: July 14, 2021 at 08:25 AM (#6029012)
Ah Earl Wilson. Weaver fought with a lot of players -- not the easiest guy to get along with. But Wilson was the only player he truly hated.
   3. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: July 14, 2021 at 08:56 AM (#6029016)
Thorpe absolutely obliterated the high minors from 1920-1922, but by that point he was in his mid-30s and had been tossed into the scrap heap by the major leagues.

Plus, he was playing another sport.
   4. The Mighty Quintana Posted: July 14, 2021 at 11:18 AM (#6029027)
To Donaldson's credit, he did say it to his face later in the player's parking lot. Much like A.J. Pierzynski, he is nothing if not consistent in his ethos.
   5. sanny manguillen Posted: July 14, 2021 at 11:33 AM (#6029030)
Bob Purkey's the guy missing from the 1960 Pirates - a Pittsburgh kid who started and ended his career in Pittsburgh, but who got good with the Reds just as the Pirates started getting good. I recently returned to Pittsburgh after many years away. The insurance agency bearing Purkey's name is about a mile away. Bob Purkey, Jr. Field is at the local high school, sadly named for his son who died young. Bob, Sr. passed in 2008.
   6. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 14, 2021 at 03:39 PM (#6029062)
Heavy White Sox presence on today's team, headed up by Robin Ventura, who is sixth all-time among position players in WAR on the South Side. Can you name the five guys ahead of him?
   7. The Mighty Quintana Posted: July 14, 2021 at 03:46 PM (#6029063)
Frank Thomas
Luke Appling
Nellie Fox
Luis Aparicio
Calrton Fisk
   8. salvomania Posted: July 14, 2021 at 03:50 PM (#6029066)
I'll say Konerko over Aparicio.
   9. salvomania Posted: July 14, 2021 at 03:52 PM (#6029068)
Maybe Minoso, but I don't think he played that long with the White Sox...
   10. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 14, 2021 at 03:53 PM (#6029069)
Appling and Thomas are 1-2, Nellie is No. 4. But Aparicio is down at No. 7, and Konerko and Fisk are just out of the Top Ten.
   11. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 14, 2021 at 03:55 PM (#6029070)
Minoso is correct, racking up 41.5 WAR with the White Sox to put him at No. 5 all-time.

That leaves one missing, the guy at No. 3. Here's a hint: Like Ventura, he also managed the Sox.
   12. salvomania Posted: July 14, 2021 at 04:06 PM (#6029074)
As an ex-Sox manager I would say Ozzie Guillen, but I'd be surprised if he even has 10 WAR...
   13. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: July 14, 2021 at 04:10 PM (#6029076)
I don't think he played that long with the White Sox...

What? Minoso played for the Sox in four different decades!
   14. salvomania Posted: July 14, 2021 at 04:12 PM (#6029077)
Here's a hint: Like Ventura, he also managed the Sox.

I cheated and looked it up, and there are a lot of other clues you could give for this guy that wouldn't give it away. Regarding this clue, I had no idea that was even the case. But maybe it's a good clue for a die-hard Sox fan or some baseball nerd.
   15. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: July 14, 2021 at 04:13 PM (#6029078)
That leaves one missing, the guy at No. 3. Here's a hint: Like Ventura, he also managed the Sox.

Gotta be Ted Lyons, the HoFer from my hometown who sadly passed away about 6 weeks after I graduated from high school. Dated a girl briefly a few years after high school who had interviewed him as part of a class project. I knew it wasn't meant to be when she told me she threw out his autograph and whatever other little memorabilia-type stuff he gave her.

EDIT: Oh. Position players. Nevermind.
   16. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 14, 2021 at 04:17 PM (#6029080)
Hey, we start with the tough clues and get easier from there. Here's another one: Like Carlton Fisk, he's probably better known for his stint with another team.
   17. JJ1986 Posted: July 14, 2021 at 04:20 PM (#6029083)
I'm pretty sure Eddie Collins managed the Sox.
   18. SoSH U at work Posted: July 14, 2021 at 04:21 PM (#6029084)
Has anyone come closer to putting up Hall-worthy careers with two separate franchises than him?
   19. JJ1986 Posted: July 14, 2021 at 04:23 PM (#6029085)
Cy Young and Tris Speaker, who were both Cleveland and Boston guys, have to be up there. It'd be a good trivia question to list the top 10 guys ranked by WAR with their second best team.
   20. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 14, 2021 at 04:25 PM (#6029086)
Tris Speaker had 74.8 WAR with the Indians and 55.8 with the Red Sox. That's very similar to Collins, who actually put up more WAR in Chicago (67.4) than in Philadelphia (57.4).
   21. SoSH U at work Posted: July 14, 2021 at 04:25 PM (#6029087)
I guess Young would be tops (if you waive the 10-year requirement). The Grey Eagle is a little short of Collins by WAR, though might get him on peak.

Bonds also beats 50 WAR with his second team.
   22. The Mighty Quintana Posted: July 14, 2021 at 04:27 PM (#6029089)
Yeah, he really did have two HOF careers. Others, maybe:

Frank Robinson
Tris Speaker
Jimmie Foxx
   23. Sweatpants Posted: July 14, 2021 at 04:32 PM (#6029091)
I can't imagine that there are many players who had two ten-year stints, each with a different team, over the course of their career.

Lefty Grove won four ERA titles in his eight seasons in Boston.
   24. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 14, 2021 at 04:35 PM (#6029092)
Fisk did - actually 11 years in Boston and 13 in Chicago, although I doubt either of those stints is Hall-worthy on its own. Pujols did too, but I can't see him getting in as an LAA.
   25. Walt Davis Posted: July 14, 2021 at 05:25 PM (#6029100)
Dawson has two good team-careers but obviously neither is remotely HoF-worthy on its own.

It's a rate stat of course but Frank Robinson does lead both the Reds and O's in career OPS+. (He leads the Reds in SLG and OPS too but is only 3rd for the O's ... well, I think first for the O's but 3rd for the Browns/O's)

Edit: ARod made it to 38 WAR with Seattle; 25 with Tex; so about 50 with the Yanks.
   26. Walt Davis Posted: July 14, 2021 at 05:46 PM (#6029102)
Near as I can tell, Stathead can't really do this but it can pretty easily generate a list by team of every position player (somebody else can do pitchers) with 40+ WAR for a franchise. Then just meander through it to see any we might have missed. Some sorta qualified

Rickey made it to 31 WAR with the Yanks. Morgan to 31 with Hou. It was spread across 3 teams but Hornsby managed 35 non-Cards WAR. Plus the folks already mentioned and that seems about it.

There are only 190 position players (NeL aside) to reach 40 WAR with a single franchise and that's double-counting Bonds, Speaker and whoever else qualifies as doing it twice.

Mookie has a pretty good shot at topping 40 for two teams -- 42 with Boston, needs to stay healthy in LA.
   27. SoSH U at work Posted: July 14, 2021 at 06:02 PM (#6029106)
Rickey made it to 31 WAR with the Yanks. Morgan to 31 with Hou. It was spread across 3 teams but Hornsby managed 35 non-Cards WAR. Plus the folks already mentioned and that seems about it.


More than 30? There are a few more than that.

Randy Johnson - 39 with the Mariners
Maddux 33 with the Cubs
Manny - 30 with the Tribe
Grich - 35 with the Angels (and 36 with the O's, one of the most even splits you're going to find).
   28. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 14, 2021 at 06:10 PM (#6029107)
Frankie Frisch: 38 WAR with the Giants, 33.8 WAR with the Cardinals.

Jim Bunning qualifies with rounding: 31.3 WAR with the Phillies, 29.6 WAR with the Tigers.
   29. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 14, 2021 at 06:17 PM (#6029109)
Is there any way to figure out what Ichiro's WAR with Orix was?
   30. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 14, 2021 at 06:21 PM (#6029111)
Not a position player obviously, but Pete Alexander had 60.1 WAR with the Phillies and 41.0 with the Cubs.
   31. Walt Davis Posted: July 14, 2021 at 06:34 PM (#6029113)
To clarify, not that this is the way it has to be done, but I looked at a list of position players (somebody else can do pitchers) who had at least 40 with one team then went through the names and looked at folks who I knew had significant careers elsewhere. So the list (not necessiarly complete) in #21 is folks with 40/30 not 30/30. So Grich, Frisch and Manny don't show up because they didn't have 40 with a team.
   32. SoSH U at work Posted: July 14, 2021 at 07:12 PM (#6029117)
Another in the Hornsby mode would be Beltre (41 with the Rangers, more than that with the Dodgers/M's/Sox).

   33. Walt Davis Posted: July 14, 2021 at 08:01 PM (#6029121)
Good call ... I wonder if Beltre is the best of the 3-teamers ... he hits the 40/20/20 mark. Probably some pitchers have done that.

Back to "30/30" ... given he was a C, maybe Piazza's 32 LAD, 25 NYM should count.
   34. JJ1986 Posted: July 14, 2021 at 09:22 PM (#6029124)
Clemens hit 80/20/20 with just two years in Toronto.
   35. Walt Davis Posted: July 14, 2021 at 11:45 PM (#6029138)
Ryan was 40/25/15.

And of coure I already mentioned him but ARod beats Beltre at 54/38/26.
   36. Walt Davis Posted: July 14, 2021 at 11:50 PM (#6029139)
Moose is at 48/35. And I should have thought of him earlier but Foxx is at 61/32.
   37. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: July 15, 2021 at 10:54 AM (#6029166)
Grove is 68/44. (Plus whatever 1000 innings in Baltimore is worth.)
   38. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: July 15, 2021 at 01:08 PM (#6029177)
Bob Purkey's the guy missing from the 1960 Pirates - a Pittsburgh kid who started and ended his career in Pittsburgh, but who got good with the Reds just as the Pirates started getting good.


As a little kid reds fan, I wondered how stupid the reds were for trading for a 16-30 pitcher. He was immediately successful as a Red. I got to sit right in front of him at a knothole event. He showed us how to grip pitches, which wasn’t to helpful for my 8/9 year old hands. But I appreciate the effort.
   39. The Honorable Ardo Posted: July 15, 2021 at 08:12 PM (#6029210)
Tucked in at the bottom of the headline: "The game was a long drawn affair taking two hours and 30 minutes." Ha!
   40. The Honorable Ardo Posted: July 15, 2021 at 08:24 PM (#6029211)
Clemens hit 80/20/20 with just two years in Toronto.
I thought, "Astros or Yankees?" Clemens's WAR by team looks like this:

Boston 81
Yankees 21
Blue Jays 20
Astros 17

The last has to be the record for "most WAR with team #4". I'm curious who comes close. Beltre had only his one (great) year in Boston. Nolan Ryan and Bobby Bonds came to mind, but neither can even match Beltre.
   41. Sweatpants Posted: July 15, 2021 at 09:00 PM (#6029217)
Roberto Alomar had 12.2 WAR with the Padres.
Gary Sheffield had 8.7 WAR with the Yankees.

Unlike Clemens, neither Alomar nor Sheffield had a huge difference between what they did with their best team (22.5 w/ TOR for RA, 17.0 w/ LAD for GS) and what they did with their fourth-best.

Edit: Fred McGriff, famously traded for Alomar, had the same kind of WAR split. 19.4 with his best team and 9.0 with his fourth-best.
   42. Sweatpants Posted: July 15, 2021 at 09:06 PM (#6029218)
Rogers Hornsby's fourth-best team mark was 8.9, achieved in one season with the Braves.
   43. SoSH U at work Posted: July 15, 2021 at 10:38 PM (#6029226)
Kevin Brown was even better in his single season with his No. 4 team. 9.1 WAR with the Pads.
   44. The Honorable Ardo Posted: July 15, 2021 at 11:04 PM (#6029228)
Brown's 1998 season was outstanding. I've looked at a host of other pitchers:

Two decades earlier, also as a Padre, Gaylord Perry had 7.9 WAR and a Cy Young Award in two seasons [more in SFG, CLE, TEX]. In the same time frame, Bert Blyleven had 9.8 WAR and a World Series ring in three seasons with the Pirates [more in MIN, CLE, TEX].

Bobo Newsom's multiple stints with the Senators added up to 7.7 WAR [more in DET, SLB, PHA].

Bartolo Colon had 4.7 WAR with the Mets [more in CLE, OAK, CHW] and won a Cy Young with his fifth-best team, the LA Angels. His Mets total doesn't include his hitting, which (home run notwithstanding) is -0.9 WAR.

Perry and Blyleven were rotation-mates on the 1976-77 Texas Rangers. The 1976 Rangers were sub-.500, but the 1977 team was a surprise 94-win, second-place finisher. After the season both were traded in salary-relief moves. They got Jon Matlack (not bad), Dave Tomlin (a reliever who fizzled out - understandable, as the '76-'77 teams' Achilles' heel was the bullpen), and gobs of cash.
   45. The Honorable Ardo Posted: July 15, 2021 at 11:20 PM (#6029230)
Among position players, I can't find anyone ahead of Alomar, McGriff, Hornsby, or Sheffield. Rusty Staub, who had over 2,000 productive plate appearances for four teams, earned only 5.5 WAR as a full-time DH with the Tigers.

Interesting tidbit: Reggie Jackson (1976) and Nelson Cruz (2014) both had excellent single seasons with the Orioles and more WAR with three other teams.

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