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Monday, May 30, 2022

Protest by San Francisco’s Gabe Kapler brings support from some fellow managers, but Chicago White Sox’s Tony La Russa differs

White Sox manager Tony La Russa says he both likes and respects San Francisco Giants manager Gabe Kapler, but disagrees with his form of protest as it relates to the latest mass shooting.

Kapler wrote this week he’ll remain inside the Giants’ clubhouse while the national anthem is being played before games. La Russa believes in the cause just not Kapler’s actions.

“I think he’s exactly right to be concerned ... with what’s happening in our country,” La Russa said before his team hosted the Cubs on Saturday night. “He’s right there. Where I disagree is the flag and the anthem are not appropriate places to try to voice your objections.”

Nineteen children and two teachers were killed at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, on Tuesday. Shortly thereafter, Kapler penned an article explaining why he can no longer stand outside while the anthem is being played, writing he’s “not okay with the state of this country.”

“When I was the same age as the children in Uvalde, my father taught me to stand for the pledge of allegiance when I believed my country was representing its people well or to protest and stay seated when it wasn’t,” Kapler wrote. “I don’t believe it is representing us well right now.”

La Russa reiterated his respect for Kapler’s intentions but thinks his form of protesting is disrespectful to servicemen and women.

“Some of their courage comes from what the flag means to them and when they hear the anthem,” La Russa said. “You need to understand what the veterans think when they hear the anthem or see the flag. And the cost they paid and their families. And if you truly understand that, I think it’s impossible not to salute the flag and listen to the anthem.”

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: May 30, 2022 at 03:51 PM | 127 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: gabe kapler, national anthem, protest, tony larussa

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   1. Bruce Chen's Huge Panamanian Robot Posted: May 30, 2022 at 04:00 PM (#6079074)
Gabe Kapler helped protect an accused rapist when he worked for the Dodgers.
   2. The Duke Posted: May 30, 2022 at 04:54 PM (#6079082)
The issue is with the owners. Employees making political statements should be fired immediately. Instead they encourage it. TLR is right of course on his point, but the larger question is why is the anthem being played at sporting events.
   3. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: May 30, 2022 at 05:05 PM (#6079083)
but the larger question is why is the anthem being played at sporting events.


You mean "why is it still being played"? Because you must know it started as a celebration of our winning WWII.

If I'm correct in inferring that you feel the anthem is unnecessary in the sports setting...I agree with you.

How do you feel about GBA sound during the 7th inning stretch? I'm a "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" person.
   4. Astroenteritis Posted: May 30, 2022 at 05:39 PM (#6079086)
GBA is nauseating, and the anthem should only be played on opening day and maybe the first game of the World Series. And more power to Kapler, wish more managers and players would do what he's doing.
   5. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 30, 2022 at 05:40 PM (#6079087)
My problem with GBA is that it extends the time before the bottom of the 7th by several extra minutes.** Because OF COURSE they have to show GBA and THEN go into the regular commercial break. Heaven help that they should just resume play once GBA is over, and have the TV feed either show the ceremony OR the commercial, rather than both.

** At least at Yankee Stadium, where they also trot out some nonagenarian WW2 vet with a canned "thank you for your sacrifice, and your service" as a prelude to the song. It'd be one thing to do this on Memorial Day and the 4th of July, but they do it for EVERY BLEEPING GAME.

   6. TJ Posted: May 30, 2022 at 06:15 PM (#6079089)
Dump both the anthem and GBA and go with something that is a celebration of baseball instead. Play “Take Me Out to the Ball Game” at the start, then let the home team play whatever upbeat song they want during the 7th inning stretch like college football teams do before the start of the 4th quarter. Encourage teams to use something from their hometown- my beloved Detroit Tigers have an entire Motown catalogue from which to choose, Bob Seger, Eminem, or even Alice Cooper (“Billion Dollar Babies” would be a good heckling song when the Yankees come to town). Of course my personal choice would be “Kick Out the Jams” by the MC 5 but I doubt MLB would allow us to shout out “Kick out the jams, mother f$&@*!&$” during the stretch…
   7. Tony S Posted: May 30, 2022 at 06:33 PM (#6079091)
How do you feel about GBA sound during the 7th inning stretch? I'm a "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" person.


I went to the Orioles game a week ago or so -- my first visit to Camden Yards since pre-covid -- and the seventh-inning song was "This Land Is Your Land", which is at least a vastly better song than GBA. But it's still followed by (groan) "Thank God I'm A Country Boy".
   8. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 30, 2022 at 06:33 PM (#6079092)
Encourage teams to use something from their hometown- my beloved Detroit Tigers have an entire Motown catalogue from which to choose, Bob Seger, Eminem, or even Alice Cooper (“Billion Dollar Babies” would be a good heckling song when the Yankees come to town).
I’m sorry, but the risk of Kid Rock is just too high.
   9. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: May 30, 2022 at 06:39 PM (#6079093)
Listen. Sweet Caroline keeps me away from Fenway, so I don't want to hear any sob stories.
   10. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 30, 2022 at 06:48 PM (#6079094)
Even "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" can get pretty lame after you've heard it for the 1000th time, but it's still better than "Sweet Caroline" or "Centerfield", two of most nauseatingly saccharine songs ever. "Thank God I'm a Country Boy" is okay, but it was much better suited for Memorial Stadium and Wild Bill Hagy than it is for Camden Yards.

But since the only teams I really care about are the Yankees and the Orioles, here would be my suggestions for the Birds and the Bombers, taken from their respective Award Winning HBO series.
   11. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 30, 2022 at 06:52 PM (#6079095)
Sweet Caroline is an abomination.
   12. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 30, 2022 at 06:53 PM (#6079096)
Encourage teams to use something from their hometown- my beloved Detroit Tigers have an entire Motown catalogue from which to choose, Bob Seger, Eminem, or even Alice Cooper (“Billion Dollar Babies” would be a good heckling song when the Yankees come to town).


I’m sorry, but the risk of Kid Rock is just too high.

This used to be Detroit's National Anthem, and it'd still work today.
   13. dejarouehg Posted: May 30, 2022 at 06:57 PM (#6079098)
If Kapler wants to make a difference, then he should put some meaningful money behind a candidate who has a chance to unseat a pro-gun congressperson. Otherwise, who gives a #### if Gabe Kapler decides to stand for the anthem?

It's not like the anthem is a televised event any more or that Kapler has the gravitas for anyone to give a crap what his position on anything is.

I've always felt that using the flag as a point of protest undermines the underlying issue.

Sadly, I doubt there will be any meaningful legislation unless and until a congressperson is directly affected when it's their child or grandchild. Clearly, it had no impact on Scalise.
   14. Addie Joss Posted: May 30, 2022 at 06:59 PM (#6079099)
What a shock - one hundred two year old Tony La Russa disagrees with and criticizes one of baseball's youngest managers on how the latter conducts himself. If he only knew that Kapler insists on driving sober, he'd be really upset.
   15. baxter Posted: May 30, 2022 at 07:15 PM (#6079100)
14. Yes; thank you for pointing that out. Also, La Russa was born in 1944; I don't see that he had any military service. He discusses understanding veterans. He certainly had the opportunity to be one had he wished. Now, to be fair, he may have served his military obligation. Bill Russell (the Dodger player) had to do reserve duty on the weekends, maybe La R did also, but I see no mention of military service in the SABR biography.

For songs, in LA should be "The End." Doors were an LA band.
   16. TJ Posted: May 30, 2022 at 07:30 PM (#6079101)
I’m sorry, but the risk of Kid Rock is just too high.

This used to be Detroit's National Anthem, and it'd still work today.


That was my wife’s observation, too- I married well!
   17. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: May 30, 2022 at 07:54 PM (#6079104)
GBA is nauseating

Kindly signal your virtue elsewhere, sir.


Kapler: I won't stand for the anthem, because Uvalde.

Me: Whatever, dude.

Kapler: But I'll make an exception for Memorial Day, because dead soldiers.

Me: Whatever, dude.
   18. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 30, 2022 at 08:43 PM (#6079115)
La Russa reiterated his respect for Kapler’s intentions but thinks his form of protesting is disrespectful to servicemen and women.


Speaking as a former serviceman or woman, I could give a #### whether anyone stands for the anthem or not. I feel in no way disrespected if anyone chooses that time for a peaceful, respectful protest. And TLR can go eat a large satchel of Richards.

Also, La Russa was born in 1944; I don't see that he had any military service. He discusses understanding veterans. He certainly had the opportunity to be one had he wished. Now, to be fair, he may have served his military obligation.


He didn't.

Bill Russell (the Dodger player) had to do reserve duty on the weekends,


Ken Holtzman was sort of the opposite. In 1967, he went 9-0 while pitching mostly on weekend passes from his full time guard duty in Peoria.

   19. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 30, 2022 at 08:58 PM (#6079116)
This used to be Detroit's National Anthem, and it'd still work today.

That was my wife’s observation, too- I married well!


Obviously you did. And I think come July she might take this one as a timely backup.

BITD there was a White DJ in Durham named "Country Boy" whose intro song went like this:

I'm a plain ol' country boy,
A tater eatin' country boy,
I raise cain on Saturday,
And I go to church on Sunday.
I'm a plain ol' country boy,
A cornbread eatin' country boy,
I wanna be over that ol' green hill
When the sun comes up on Monday.


Sounds like the kind of deejay who today would be playing anything but soul music. And yet he had all the Motown / Atlantic / Stax artists on his playlists.



   20. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 30, 2022 at 09:51 PM (#6079124)
If Kapler wants to make a difference, then he should put some meaningful money behind a candidate who has a chance to unseat a pro-gun congressperson. Otherwise, who gives a #### if Gabe Kapler decides to stand for the anthem?

How about a candidate that will support committing the mentally ill to psychiatric hospitals? A kid whose nickname is "school shooter" needs some involuntary psychiatric treatment. As we've seen elsewhere you can commit mass murder with a truck, or a gallon of gasoline.
   21. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: May 30, 2022 at 10:04 PM (#6079126)
Living overseas, I haven't been to a game in 8 years and watching the MLB stream goes dark between innings(no ads, nothing) so I had no idea GBA was still a thing.

MLB really should bin that and the anthem. Take me out is fun and kind of silly. The world needs more fun, not more chest beating patriotism.
As for Kapler, sure do whatever you want, I don't really care and if that works for him, then I'm fine with that.

For songs, in LA should be "The End." Doors were an LA band.


Did you consider that the Eagles, X, Red Hot chilli peppers, Guns and Roses, Beach boys, Black Flag, NWA, the Offspring, all the Laurel Canyon bands from the 60's and on and on and on are all LA bands. Lots of good music to choose from there.

   22. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 30, 2022 at 10:07 PM (#6079128)
As we've seen elsewhere you can commit mass murder with a truck, or a gallon of gasoline.


But, we rarely do. If we restricted guns in this country like they do in Europe and other western style democracies, and have the level of no gun mass murders that they do, that would be a huge net benefit.
   23. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 30, 2022 at 10:11 PM (#6079129)
Take away guns, especially faux military guns, and you take the coolness factor out of it. Blowing up a school or a church or a shopping center with a truck bomb is both a lot of work and lame.
   24. The Duke Posted: May 30, 2022 at 10:23 PM (#6079130)
GBA is terrible - what's wrong with Take Me Out To the Ballgame
   25. baxter Posted: May 30, 2022 at 10:25 PM (#6079131)
21 Agree with everything you state, I just wanted to be a smart aleck and suggest an extremely long song with an LA connection (which is why I didn't list Alice's Restaurant). 7th inning stretch w/take me out to the ballgame is enough; games are long enough as it is.
   26. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: May 30, 2022 at 11:07 PM (#6079135)
On that note, too bad there isn't a team in Birmingham (UK), that could play Low Spark of High Heeled Boys.

I've been to north of 1,000 MLB/MiLB games in my life, and I never tire of Take Me Out To the Ballgame (and 100s of playings of Roll Out the Barrel). I enjoy observing the fans around me, maybe those that rarely get to a game and really get into fanfare of it. GBA just feels like a forced interruption.
   27. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 30, 2022 at 11:49 PM (#6079139)
I know nothing about soccer, but I love West Ham United's song, which migrated from the U. S. of 1919 through James Cagney's The Public Enemy all the way to West Ham.
   28. base ball chick Posted: May 31, 2022 at 03:13 AM (#6079151)
20. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 30, 2022 at 09:51 PM (#6079124)
If Kapler wants to make a difference, then he should put some meaningful money behind a candidate who has a chance to unseat a pro-gun congressperson. Otherwise, who gives a #### if Gabe Kapler decides to stand for the anthem?


How about a candidate that will support committing the mentally ill to psychiatric hospitals?


- mental hospital? WHAT mental hospital are you talking about? unless you have $$$ and lots of it there isn't no mental health NOTHING here. we're like the 3rd richest state in the country and the right wingers have basically gotten rid of anything mental health (and public health). you now have to PAY to go to a supposedly "public" health clinic. about 1 out of 5 LEGALS here got zero health care at all. It would be much higher if you checked only non-pregnant adults over 18. There's no medicaid for anyone over 18 unless they're pregnant. and MHMR (public mental health clinic) have basically vanished over the past 15 years and 15 years ago they have over a 1 year wait list. people here can't afford docs and they can't afford meds


A kid whose nickname is "school shooter" needs some involuntary psychiatric treatment.


- uh hunh. and in a tiny crap town like uvalde he's gonna get this WHERE? they only got ONE pediatrician for the entire town. medicaid can't pay for a psychiatrist. they already in big demand and they ain't goin to no craphole like uvalde

As we've seen elsewhere you can commit mass murder with a truck, or a gallon of gasoline.


- sure. but it is a lot harder to get hold of a big truck than it is an assault rifle.

you know that the gun nuts here have made it legal to open carry even in colleges? and the streets of houston? it like they LOOKING for an excuse to have more shootouts

what needs to happen is that some gun nut needs to shoot up the exclusivo hella rich private skoolz that ted cruz's kids and the kids of people just like him. pretty hard for the right wingers to shrug off they OWN kidz getting slaughtered
   29. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 31, 2022 at 05:26 AM (#6079152)
Take away guns, especially faux military guns, and you take the coolness factor out of it.
This is actually why I think you only get limited impacts with gun control legislation. The real problem isn't guns, it's an American gun culture that has fetishized guns to the point where a dangerous number of people now believe that guns aren't just for home defense or hunting, but are a legitimate solution to their personal issues with the world. Taking guns away will definitely cut down on shooting, but the root of the problem lies in the rancid heart of gun culture. I don't know that there's a solution to that.

EDIT: And before people jump in with "it's just a handful of bad apples," that's all it takes. A bad apple with a happy trigger finger and an easily acquired semi-automatic will cut down a lot of good apples in a hurry.
   30. Miserable, Non-Binary Candy is all we deserve CoB Posted: May 31, 2022 at 08:29 AM (#6079154)
Where to begin?
I despise GBA?
And the Kate Smith version that the Yankees played FOR EVER was about as welcome as a long raspy fart in church?
Also ... spot on Lisa.
Since I'm also living in Texas, I can relate ... my sister's husband is partially paralyzed ... spinal injury from a car accident as a teenage, he's in a wheelchair ... it took him 3! applications to finally start receiving disability.
Texas seems to be the state where if you're not dead, you don't qualify and **if** you ARE dead ... you also don't qualify.
   31. Rally Posted: May 31, 2022 at 08:51 AM (#6079158)
For songs, in LA should be "The End." Doors were an LA band.


I thought we were trying to find ways to shorten games.
   32. Tony S Posted: May 31, 2022 at 08:55 AM (#6079159)
Hombre gets to the heart of the issue in #29. The issue isn't guns (I'm a gun owner myself), it's the way they've become a totem, a badge of masculinity or something. That's an insidious cultural issue that's hard to legislate away.

Guns are a tool, a thing, an inanimate object with some utility, like a power drill. That's all they are. The way they've been elevated to some perverse symbol is most of what's causing the problem with them.
   33. Lonnie Smith for president Posted: May 31, 2022 at 09:16 AM (#6079165)
#28 and #30, good morning from a college campus in west Texas. Like most of us in this death cult of a state, I'm just waiting my turn to be murdered with fingers crossed I will require no kind of medical care before then, for it is no kind that is available. If matters are this precarious for my skin/age-privileged ass, imagine how it is for most of my neighbors here. Tony LaRussa can eat my shorts.
   34. RickG Posted: May 31, 2022 at 09:29 AM (#6079169)
I like "Don't Stop Believin'" but I think I would hate it about the 30th time the White Sox used that for their 7th Inning Theme Song.

Tony (32) I'm still waiting for someone to share the proper use for an AR-15. How does that tool help the handy homeowner?
   35. Miserable, Non-Binary Candy is all we deserve CoB Posted: May 31, 2022 at 09:34 AM (#6079171)
As a gun owner (since I was about 12), I'll agree with Tony. And I can state that there are gun owners and then there are gun fetishists.
I know, since I am the former, but I used to be the latter.
I used to pore through gun magazines as a teenager thinking, oh, as soon as I can, I'm going to buy this gun and that gun and OMG ... that's just a cool gun.
Then one night, while I was "cleaning" my Ruger 10/22 (note ... when any gun person tells you they were just "cleaning their gun" and it just "went off" ... they're lying) I put a round through the wall between my room and my sister's.
It deflected off one post of her brass bed and landed on her pillow, about 2 inches from her head (luckily the impact with the bed post took the energy out of it, so she would have been OK in any case).
That was the moment I changed.
But some people never do.
Like, my father.
He's put 3 gunshot holes in his last 2 houses ... all while "cleaning" his guns.
He has a gun on his nightstand ... and one under the bed and always open carries when we go for our morning walk.
   36. McCoy Posted: May 31, 2022 at 09:58 AM (#6079174)
Playing the national anthem before the game was not started as a celebration for winning WW2. The tradition traces its roots to WWI and moved to before the game during WW2.
   37. . Posted: May 31, 2022 at 10:32 AM (#6079180)
I love how the big tough Texas tough guys who were right there with all their guns cowardly turtled and let a guy kill 19 kids. That abject cowardice and big tough ####-talkin' is the true face of the Second Amendment.
   38. SandyRiver Posted: May 31, 2022 at 10:37 AM (#6079181)
#34: In the appropriate caliber and with 5-shot or less capacity, an AR-15 is just a funny-looking hunting rifle, though heavier than I'd care to lug thru the woods. Those 30-round (or more) clips should never leave a well-supervised shooting range, if they're used at all.
#35: Firat rule of gun safety is to treat every gun with the respect due to a loaded gun. That was hammered into my head before my 7th birthday, and I'm very glad. Some years later when I was in the advanced levels of junior NRA rimfire riflery, I was "dry-firing" my old Mauser in my bedroom to practice my holds. I'd put empty brass in the chamber to protect the firing pin, and work on trigger squeeze. The gun had a very light trigger pull, and one evening I was surprised to find the firing pin had been let off when I closed the bolt - the trigger was so light that any bump would break the sear. Dad adjusted the trigger and glued the adjustment to prevent further creep, but I still shiver a bit thinking of what might have happened if the problem had been discovered at the range with a live round - might've sent 40 grains of lead over the mountain behind the targets. (2nd rule: Never point a gun at something you don't want to shoot.)
   39. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: May 31, 2022 at 11:09 AM (#6079185)
Tony (32) I'm still waiting for someone to share the proper use for an AR-15.

Like Tony says, they're a tool, and the one real use I can think of for an AR-15 is in hunting feral hogs which do tens of millions of dollars damage to crops just in Texas every year in addition to breeding like rabbits and having a temperament that will wreck your day just for the fun of it. In Texas, you can hunt them year-round, there's no bag limit, no license required when shooting for population control, fire suppressors are legal, you can hunt them from a helicopter. The only rule seems to be to kill as many as you can as fast as possible, and it's still not enough.
   40. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 31, 2022 at 12:36 PM (#6079196)
Playing the national anthem before the game was not started as a celebration for winning WW2. The tradition traces its roots to WWI and moved to before the game during WW2.

Minor pedantic point: Before 1931 the Star-Spangled Banner wasn't the official National Anthem. But you're right about its being first played at baseball games during WW1.
   41. Adam Starblind Posted: May 31, 2022 at 12:58 PM (#6079198)
As we've seen elsewhere you can commit mass murder with a truck, or a gallon of gasoline.


We shouldn't stop any murder until we can stop every murder. Libs just don't get it.
   42. Adam Starblind Posted: May 31, 2022 at 01:00 PM (#6079199)
As we've seen elsewhere you can commit mass murder with a truck, or a gallon of gasoline.


This is almost literally Archie Bunker's view on gun control. "Would it make you feel any better if they was pushed outta windez?"
   43. Karl from NY Posted: May 31, 2022 at 03:04 PM (#6079210)
Sweet Caroline was perfectly fine until the barbarian masses ruined it with that yawping "uh uh uh" in echo to the chorus. That barely exists in the original, it's just a few trumpet notes.
   44. villageidiom Posted: May 31, 2022 at 03:35 PM (#6079217)
Sweet Caroline was ruined upon creation. The barbarian masses have attempted to make it fun and worthwhile. And it was, for around two or three weeks.

That aside, do any ballparks still do the wave? I haven't been to a game for a few years but they were still doing it at Fenway the last time I went. I get the sense that a whole generation of idiots in Boston decided they wanted to be the guy who started the wave, so every game someone in the bleachers was that guy, and the park indulged him.
   45. base ball chick Posted: May 31, 2022 at 03:51 PM (#6079219)
33. Lonnie Smith for president Posted: May 31, 2022 at 09:16 AM (#6079165)
#28 and #30, good morning from a college campus in west Texas. Like most of us in this death cult of a state, I'm just waiting my turn to be murdered with fingers crossed I will require no kind of medical care before then, for it is no kind that is available. If matters are this precarious for my skin/age-privileged ass, imagine how it is for most of my neighbors here. Tony LaRussa can eat my shorts.


- healthy young males don't usually need no doctor. unless yall get sick and HAVE to have meds. or break a leg and need a cast. or something. most small towns got no hospital no mo and all they got is "urgent care" which cost you at least 150 - 200 smackers up front BEFORE they see you. and of course they figure out WHY you gotta have all these tests you can't pay for. and most of them got only a nurse or 2 and some MD who so bad they can't get a job any place else. IF you got a public health clinic, you got to fill out all KINDS of forms to get any kind of low cost anything. they like to tell you they just doing a little and then you got to see your OWN doctor which of course you ain't got. And they won't give you refills on anything you need to live like blood pressure meds or asthma meds so as they can get another 200 smackers when you have to come back in next month. you ain't rich, you aint shtttt


37. . Posted: May 31, 2022 at 10:32 AM (#6079180)
I love how the big tough Texas tough guys who were right there with all their guns cowardly turtled and let a guy kill 19 kids. That abject cowardice and big tough ####-talkin' is the true face of the Second Amendment.


- hey whaddaya know. for once sugar got it spot on. unarmed WOMEN no body armor, no big metal peanusss, no NOTHIN, were ready and more than willing to go into that building, facing an armed shooter who just might could have more bullets to rescue kidz. all the cops good for was handcuffing PARENTS and whinin about how they scared of an armed shooter like what if they got shot

BAH

- them cops good for NOTHING (except shooting unarmed Black people). same with the cops at that florida high school. they be waitin on a miracle or to be sure the shooter out of bullets after killin all the kidz they can. and they can't be sued or nothin. they not even apologising.

- speaking of Black people anyone notice that no matter how bad the neighborhood that no one is goin around shootin up little kidz in skoolz???


   46. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 31, 2022 at 03:55 PM (#6079220)
We shouldn't stop any murder until we can stop every murder. Libs just don't get it.
It's nihilism disguised as rationality. Even if no one kills you, you're going to die anyways, so why be careful? Buy a minigun. Fire everywhere. It's just like a truck, but better. Life is fleeting, and you deserve to kill better.
   47. base ball chick Posted: May 31, 2022 at 03:56 PM (#6079221)
OH YEAH

and TLR can just suck mah youknowwhat small as it is

the pledge of allegiance? "liberty and justice for all" mah ASS. not mention the "under God" or the "indivisible" part

and the SSB? "land of the FREE" mah ass
   48. Lonnie Smith for president Posted: May 31, 2022 at 04:22 PM (#6079224)
45. base ball chick Posted: May 31, 2022 at 03:51 PM (#6079219)
- healthy young males don't usually need no doctor. unless yall get sick and HAVE to have meds. or break a leg and need a cast. or something. most small towns got no hospital no mo and all they got is "urgent care" which cost you at least 150 - 200 smackers up front BEFORE they see you. and of course they figure out WHY you gotta have all these tests you can't pay for. and most of them got only a nurse or 2 and some MD who so bad they can't get a job any place else. IF you got a public health clinic, you got to fill out all KINDS of forms to get any kind of low cost anything. they like to tell you they just doing a little and then you got to see your OWN doctor which of course you ain't got. And they won't give you refills on anything you need to live like blood pressure meds or asthma meds so as they can get another 200 smackers when you have to come back in next month. you ain't rich, you aint shtttt


BBC, you remain the ginchiest. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter -- make it two and I'll comp TLR. Clearly, you and I are already on the same health care plan. Rub some dirt on it, right?
   49. Howie Menckel Posted: May 31, 2022 at 04:49 PM (#6079231)
That aside, do any ballparks still do the wave?

they did it at Citi Field when I went on Saturday night, but it was in the middle of a rally early in the game - so the unamused gods immediately made it start raining to successfully stifle the effort
   50. Tony S Posted: May 31, 2022 at 05:25 PM (#6079237)
"Sweet Caroline" is OK, but "Dirty Water" is light-years better.
   51. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: May 31, 2022 at 05:55 PM (#6079240)
No, it's not ok. It's worse than sitting in an obstructed view seat for 3 and half hours.
   52. . Posted: May 31, 2022 at 06:36 PM (#6079249)
- speaking of Black people anyone notice that no matter how bad the neighborhood that no one is goin around shootin up little kidz in skoolz???


Impossible to miss, for anyone paying even the least bit of attention. There are reasons, primarily IMO having to do with community versus alienation/atomization (*), but it's better to leave it at that rather than do a half-ass job of further developing the thoughts.

(*) America is a profoundly alienating and atomizing place, which is the ultimate primary source of these atrocities. Throw in the fact that it's a place that glorifies violence and you have a toxic brew. Would there be as many murders with sensible gun control? No, there would not be; using a truck or gasoline takes effort, time, and competence and risks detection far more. Nor do those things give the frisson of physical energy and immediacy and presence and dominance offered up by an assault weapon.
   53. Jose is Absurdly Correct but not Helpful Posted: May 31, 2022 at 07:04 PM (#6079257)
Sweet Caroline is a terrific song and I love the Fenway experience of it. The vast majority of attendees are enjoying themselves immensely when it is played. Dirty Water is a perfectly fine little tune and as a Sox fan obviously I’m happy to hear it.
   54. The Duke Posted: May 31, 2022 at 07:06 PM (#6079258)
45. The shooting of black children happens countless times a week all over the nation on the streets around their schools (as well as Hispanic and some white schools too). Ask any black parent on the south or west side of Chicago if their kids are safe walking down the street to/from school. I fail to see "where one gets slaughtered" by a gun being remotely important.

People rail about guns but the most appropriate response to MacBook shootings in the short term is surround the schools with security (fencing, guards, more police on the street, etc). For those old enough to remember we didn't use to have all the security in airports (globally) that we have today. That's relatively new and largely in response to violence against innocent people massed in a shooting gallery with nowhere to hide. It's just the nature of the beast.

The gun issue will not be resolved anytime soon so protective measures should take place. If we can give the
Entire country a check for $500 or give the Ukraine billion in arms, surely we can defend the schools from cowards with guns.
   55. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: May 31, 2022 at 07:09 PM (#6079261)
Like Tony says, they're a tool, and the one real use I can think of for an AR-15 is in hunting feral hogs


And the practical purpose of a hand gun? You won't be doing too much hunting with one of those. Seriously, this is how you justify the need for a tool who's sole purpose was created for combat in which humans kill each other?

always open carries when we go for our morning walk.


So he's just walking around like it's 1865 with a gun in a holster, out in the open? Do you realise how inane that sounds to the rest of the world?
It's like everyone thinks they're still in the wild west and need a firearm in case the bad guys ride into town!

The sad thing is, the bad guys do ride into town and in the most recent mass incident lots of trained law enforcement guys(who had sh*tloads of guns) all sat around for 90 minutes whilst the bad guy shot lots of kids anyway, so really even with everyone having guns, the response was, well, underwhelming....
   56. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 31, 2022 at 07:25 PM (#6079263)
For those old enough to remember we didn't use to have all the security in airports (globally) that we have today. That's relatively new and largely in response to violence against innocent people massed in a shooting gallery with nowhere to hide.
You missed the part of the response where America started two wars and changed the entire nature of geopolitics for the 21st century.

America's response to gun violence? More guns, more fences -- the standard modern Republican response to everything, guaranteed to not work. Kids dying? More guns. Inflation? More guns. Food too salty? More guns.

Why is there more gun violence? Let's not ask that. Let's just buy more guns.
   57. Tony S Posted: May 31, 2022 at 07:32 PM (#6079265)
And the practical purpose of a hand gun? You won't be doing too much hunting with one of those. Seriously, this is how you justify the need for a tool who's sole purpose was created for combat in which humans kill each other?


I totally get where you're coming from. My thinking on this issue has evolved over the years. As much trouble as guns are, as harmful as gun-fetishists are to society, I just don't think that banning any type of firearm will resolve more problems than it creates.

To me, it's the other side of the coin of the war-on-drugs (and its ancestor, alcohol prohibition). When you criminalize something that is popular, and something that is relatively benign and harmless to RESPONSIBLE adults, you're not really ending the practice or item or service; you're just driving it underground. The war-on-drugs has been a decades-long disaster, and though we're finally seeing some realization of this at the state level (and in countries like Portugal), it continues to feed cartels, tag productive citizens with scarlet letters for ingesting a plant, needlessly crowd our prisons, and just mess up society in countless other ways. I'm afraid that criminalizing gun ownership will lead to similar results. Do we want to hand over MORE power and money to foreign cartels? Do we want to expend even more resources on law enforcement (which, I'm sure, will act completely fairly and objectively, just like they do with drugs)? That's part of the reason I'm uncomfortable with gun-control legislation.

I don't have any quick answers. I would just suggest that we approach this by taking guns out of the hands or criminals and the incompetent, the same was we try to keep bad drivers off the road through licensing.

I do agree that open-carry is just silly, childish flexing. After all, this is the same crowd that Refuses To Live In Fear.



   58. SoSH U at work Posted: May 31, 2022 at 07:33 PM (#6079267)
More guns, more fences -- the standard modern Republican response to everything, guaranteed to not work.


I don't know. I think the popular "Build a Wall" strategy might actually make some sense when dealing with that "feral hogs are eating my children and destroying my azaleas" problem.
   59. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 31, 2022 at 07:47 PM (#6079269)
I think the popular "Build a Wall" strategy might actually make some sense when dealing with that "feral hogs are eating my children and destroying my azaleas" problem.
That actually doesn't work! Wild hogs are astonishingly destructive, and walls and fences often even don't even survive them, much less keep them out. Kill the pigs. It's the only way.
   60. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: May 31, 2022 at 08:25 PM (#6079274)
#57
Though we disagree, I appreciate you taking the time to explain your position.
   61. base ball chick Posted: May 31, 2022 at 11:00 PM (#6079297)
54. The Duke Posted: May 31, 2022 at 07:06 PM (#6079258)
45. The shooting of black children happens countless times a week all over the nation on the streets around their schools (as well as Hispanic and some white schools too).


- Black people are not taking assault weapon INSIDE of kidz skools and machine gunning little kids. the little kidz getting shot are getting shot in drive bys or domestic fights or shot by the male their mama is/was with. not that i think that is a great thing neither. but WE are not TRYING to kill our own little kidz. even the gangs are not shooting little kidz in skoolz

Ask any black parent on the south or west side of Chicago if their kids are safe walking down the street to/from school. I fail to see "where one gets slaughtered" by a gun being remotely important.


- i don't know about chicago but here nobody walks to skool. i can't find something about some Black/Hispanic guy in body armor in chicago or anywheres else machine gunning little Black kidz walking to skool. or running them over with a truck. or baseball batting them to death. or knifing a bunch. or any other kind of mass killing


People rail about guns but the most appropriate response to MacBook shootings in the short term is surround the schools with security (fencing, guards, more police on the street, etc). For those old enough to remember we didn't use to have all the security in airports (globally) that we have today. That's relatively new and largely in response to violence against innocent people massed in a shooting gallery with nowhere to hide. It's just the nature of the beast.


- ok
so maybe here we could pay security guards - how many were you thinking of - to put around skools. you want to give them machine guns, i mean assault rifles, too? right wing people already screaming we should stop public skools, defund the teachers. they want to get paid for in home schooling, keep that $$$ for themself and the so called religiss skoolz. you think they wanna see money going to more cops and security guards especially if they the Wrong Color?

did you happen to see that ALL the cops - not just one, LOTS, who poured into the school yard sat with thumbs up butt ignoring all the little kidz 911 calls and voice calls for help for a HOUR? not the first school shooting where this happened neither

how do you think cities and poor towns like uvalde that can't even afford a hospital or a public health clinic have lot of $$$ to hire all these extra cops for each skool?

what i think is gonna happen in any place not a large city is you're gonna get all these males who think a assault rifle means they have a giant youknowwhat like their jacked up truck does, gonna form a citizens vigilante group and parade around with guns

cocked.

pointed.

out.

yeh they call me da Hunter, yeh that's mah game. only gun full of lead not love

BTW

i got no problem with actual hunting rifles that are not the AR15/AK47 kind. and if someone who is rural wants to have an AK to shoot feral hogs they need to be licensed and registered and have actual training at an actual training course. and 25 years old and not have a record of any kind of violence too





   62. baxter Posted: June 01, 2022 at 01:22 AM (#6079318)
I found the following article interesting; want to see more on the topic, but I do not understand what the possible solution can be:
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/27/stopping-mass-shooters-q-a-00035762

The hardening approach (more police, security, walls) doesn't work. Indeed as the article points out, the individuals in the mass shooting situations are suicidal, the possibility of shooting it out with an armed guard is desirable.

37, yes, well most people, me certainly included aren't as tough as they think they are (and I'm yellow to begin with) and to quote the philosopher king/champ Mike Tyson everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face (channeling von Clausewitz). So while I can understand the police not going inside the building (I wouldn't, but again, color me yellow), the bigger question for them is why keep tossing so much money their way?

The name calling monsters, evil, sick is just non-productive. It may feel empowering, but accomplishes nothing. Besides, even if the shooters are mentally ill (again, probably major depressive disorder), they don't seem to be delusional.

Still, it is a constitutionally protected right, the diminution of which I don't take lightly. Of course, I also don't take lightly the infringement of the right to be free of unreasonable searches and seizures, be free of cruel and unusual punishment, have legal counsel and post a reasonable bond. Many of the people who want to bear arms appear not to want to concede, if that's the proper term, those latter rights to those accused of crimes.



   63. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 01, 2022 at 07:29 AM (#6079325)
i got no problem with actual hunting rifles that are not the AR15/AK47 kind. and if someone who is rural wants to have an AK to shoot feral hogs they need to be licensed and registered and have actual training at an actual training course. and 25 years old and not have a record of any kind of violence too

As usual, Lisa is the voice of common sense. If only her governor had any.
   64. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: June 01, 2022 at 09:30 AM (#6079332)
Ask any black parent on the south or west side of Chicago if their kids are safe walking down the street to/from school.

Sorry, but even mentioning Chicago automatically makes you a racist. Come quietly, now.
   65. Stop Oppressing Zonk by Investigating His Heroes Posted: June 01, 2022 at 04:08 PM (#6079387)
Sorry, but even mentioning Chicago automatically makes you a racist. Come quietly, now.


Riiiiggghhtttt... I'm sure it's totes organic - or just random - that in fact, Chicago per capita rate on shootings is slightly below Albany, Georgia and roughly the same as Little Rock, Arkansas.... or the fact that Baton Rouge, New Orleans, and Shreveport Louisiana rank well above it. Or that St Louis Missouri and Memphis Tennessee both nearly double the rate. Or that actually - both downstate St Clair county and east central Vermillion county actually have higher per capita rates than does Cook county within Illinois.

I have no doubt the whattabout Chicago comes from a place of good faith.
   66. Cris E Posted: June 01, 2022 at 05:33 PM (#6079406)
Interesting piece on this that I came across. It's a pretty religious site, but read the whole thing and go check out the odd way the comments broke out. Lots of conservative religious happy to wield the Bible at the gun guys, but even more upset at the poor work of the cops. Not how these things typically go. Anyway, makes for an interesting conversation:

To Do the Right Thing, You Might Have to Die.
   67. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: June 01, 2022 at 06:14 PM (#6079415)
Sweet Caroline is a terrific song and I love the Fenway experience of it. The vast majority of attendees are enjoying themselves immensely when it is played.


Detectives posit that alcohol is involved.

edit...Also, see #9.
   68. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 01, 2022 at 06:28 PM (#6079416)
To Do the Right Thing, You Might Have to Die.
Do right-wingers still consider David French a conservative?
   69. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 01, 2022 at 06:46 PM (#6079421)
Sweet Caroline is a terrific song and I love the Fenway experience of it. The vast majority of attendees are enjoying themselves immensely when it is played.
You just passed Snapper in the historical monster rankings.
   70. Mr. Hotfoot Jackson (gef, talking mongoose) Posted: June 01, 2022 at 06:52 PM (#6079423)
The Standells' manager wrote not only Dirty Water but Tainted Love.
   71. Traderdave Posted: June 01, 2022 at 06:58 PM (#6079424)
The tactical advantage offered by an AR or similar gun is rapid fire and up to 30 rounds, depending on which state you're in & if you follow the law.

As an experienced pig hunter I can tell you that the advantage they offer in culling a sounder of hogs is minimal. Wild pigs are FAST. Most could easily beat a deer in a 50 yard dash, probably 100 yards too. By the time you aim your second shot, they are flying away. The only way in which the rapid fire helps is if you spray lead recklessly without proper shot placement, which not just unsporting (you'll wound rather than kill) but dangerous as hell to the surrounding area.

Professional hog cullers almost always use cage traps. A cage trap is a chain link fence laid out in a circle or square with a remotely operated gate. The culler piles in loads of bait for several nights in a row to attract as many as possible, then hits the button to drop the gate when the time is right. At that point, they are typically shot en masse, and in that instance an AR with a 30 round clip could possibly have some value. But a 30.06 with a 4 round mag works too, and the .06 round is a lot more powerful which means a quicker and cleaner kill. Same/similar for a 357 pistol.

AR's are not made for hunting, they are made for killing people.


   72. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 01, 2022 at 08:33 PM (#6079442)
There are reasons, primarily IMO having to do with community versus alienation/atomization (*), but it's better to leave it at that rather than do a half-ass job of further developing the thoughts.
Too late!
   73. sunday silence (again) Posted: June 01, 2022 at 09:31 PM (#6079446)
To me, it's the other side of the coin of the war-on-drugs (and its ancestor, alcohol prohibition). When you criminalize something that is popular, and something that is relatively benign and harmless to RESPONSIBLE adults, you're not really ending the practice or item or service; you're just driving it underground


I think this is a really weird argument. What if we applied the same argument to say beer, cigarettes and driving? Would you argue that those should not be regulated because you know, people will just go underground with their cigarettes?

Or to take another example, think of Europe and Canada. Do they have some huge underground gun lobby? Well probably there's some criminals with guns, but its also clear they dont have the same number of guns or the same number of mass shootings as in the USA. no one in Europe or Canada is worried about some huge underground gun movement.

But of course, america has a gun culture and also a violence culture to a certain extent. I dont want to diminish those I think the guy upthread made a good pt. about that. But I think if you get into the American culture of violence then that's quite a different argument than saying gun regulation will drive guns underground.


I get there's lots of arguments for gun ownership. I dont want to diminish the Constitutional argument, I think that needs to be considered. But I think once you agree that regulating guns IN SOME MANNER is OK, then you pretty much have to agree that the 2nd amendment is not absolute. So let's take a poll: does anyone think that the second amendment means that guns can never be regulated in any way? presumably no one agrees to that. Right? You wouldnt insist that ten year olds can carry guys, or people should be able to carry loaded guns into class rooms and such. Right? obviously there's limits to gun ownership, and obviously the second amendment doesnt just mean anyone can carry a gun anytime anywhere...

Ok then. THe vast majority of people think guns should be regulated in some way. The only issue is how much? or how intrusive? Once you agree to that then you have to admit that the second amendment is not sacrosanct.

   74. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 01, 2022 at 10:51 PM (#6079455)
Something like 92% of the U.S. population supports background checks. But 50 ######## don't, so minority rules.

   75. person man Posted: June 01, 2022 at 11:29 PM (#6079464)
here in ohio, a state owned by republicans who refuse to relinquish their hold, a bill has been fast-tracked by the state legislature to allow schools to have armed personnel with just 24 hours of firearms training. the governor will sign the bill if it is presented to him.

i'm a teacher, and i don't want to quit my job, but i also don't want to go to work in such an environment.
i wouldn't have wanted to attend school in such an environment, either.

there is no reason that teachers or other school staff should have firearms in schools.
that is an absurdly terrible idea.
we have metal detectors at entrances and "school resource officers" (security) for a reason.
if anyone should be armed in a school, which is at best arguable, it should solely be trained law enforcement personnel.

(who are under no obligation to protect anyone, apparently!)

"good times, good times."
   76. base ball chick Posted: June 02, 2022 at 12:41 AM (#6079469)
75. person man Posted: June 01, 2022 at 11:29 PM (#6079464)
here in ohio, a state owned by republicans who refuse to relinquish their hold, a bill has been fast-tracked by the state legislature to allow schools to have armed personnel with just 24 hours of firearms training. the governor will sign the bill if it is presented to him.

i'm a teacher, and i don't want to quit my job, but i also don't want to go to work in such an environment.
i wouldn't have wanted to attend school in such an environment, either.

there is no reason that teachers or other school staff should have firearms in schools.
that is an absurdly terrible idea.

- so

all people can be trained to use a gun as well as a cop/military personel in 24 hrs. boy i am sure that schoolteachers are gonna be happy packing in the classrooms and won't none of the little kidz grab it. or worse a group of teenagers. all it takes is one teen to hit some teavher over the head take his/her gun and start shooting. and all we need is some unhappy teacher with a glock or something thinks the kidz disrespecting the heft of his youknowwhat to go off,
um
half, uh, cocked

i am really REALLY glad mah kidz are done with skool.
   77. base ball chick Posted: June 02, 2022 at 02:09 AM (#6079473)
lonnie smith

i looked it up for Harris County (yewstin for the rest of all yall non-texans) - the percent of people under 65 ho got NO health ins. it's 25% so you can subtract pretty much everyone under 18 and all pregnant women.
so
population of harris county 4,728,030
10% are over 65 so that's 472,803
so that's 4,225,227 people under 65

but you got to take out all the people under 18 because between medicaid and the CHIPSs and private ins, basically everyone under 18 got something
and 26.4% under 18 and that's 1,248,200

you subtract those 2 out and you got 3,054,307 people left andout of the 18-65 population 763,576 got NO ins

763,576 got NOTHING

and we live in a rich county as countys go

just imagine the folks who don't. bet the number of uninsured is real high there
   78. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 02, 2022 at 04:08 AM (#6079475)
#71 Thanks for the info, Dave. That's very interesting stuff.
   79. Lonnie Smith for president Posted: June 02, 2022 at 08:09 AM (#6079476)
BBC, the numbers in Tom Green County are not as densely appalling as Harris, but they certainly follow that trend: 17.6% uninsured under 65yo here, so based on your qualifiers, that comes out to about 18k without coverage of any kind. Those with coverage, well, where to be covered? Abilene and Lubbock are nearby (per Texas commuting standards) yet they're slammed caring for their own local populations. And yes, fellow BTFers not residing in the Republic, getting to the likes of Abilene and Lubbock constitute a problem-solving strategy in these parts.

My employer brags on the great benefits package, which they tout as foundational to their overall compensation package. True enough. However, since landlords and HEB don't tend to swap their goods and services for household deductibles, those sub-$25k salaries for f/t permanent work are painfully limiting. Sweet land of liberty, right?
   80. Miserable, Non-Binary Candy is all we deserve CoB Posted: June 02, 2022 at 08:32 AM (#6079477)
So he's just walking around like it's 1865 with a gun in a holster, out in the open? Do you realise how inane that sounds to the rest of the world?
It's like everyone thinks they're still in the wild west and need a firearm in case the bad guys ride into town!


He's Ralphie from A Christmas Story ... he's convinced he needs his Red Ryder for when Black Bart (who is probably a Mexican) and his gang come over the fence.
Also, I will quibble ... I wouldn't use inane ... I'd go with insane.
   81. Tony S Posted: June 02, 2022 at 08:32 AM (#6079478)
I think this is a really weird argument. What if we applied the same argument to say beer, cigarettes and driving? Would you argue that those should not be regulated because you know, people will just go underground with their cigarettes?


"Regulated" and "criminalized" are two completely different things. I wasn't arguing against regulation, though determining what shape such regulation would take to be (a) effective, and (b) constitutional is way above my pay grade.

The percentage of Americans who smoke cigarettes has declined dramatically over the last 60 years or so. And cigarettes were never banned by the government, so they remained available and affordable to those who DID want to smoke. Which turned out to be an effective way to deal with the problem.

If tobacco had been outright prohibited, I guarantee you cartels would have emerged to meet the demand, and we would have seen a corresponding increase in crime, turf wars, and other nice things. We saw this movie in the 1920's with alcohol. We're still seeing it now with cannabis.

And suppose we do ban firearms (or a subset of them). Are you ready to pay extra taxes for the massive resource-suck enforcing this is going to be? It's bad enough with the drug war. And do you really believe such a ban will be enforced evenly, across the board, with no particular groups especially targeted? Do you want to give cops (government) even MORE power over citizens than they have now? That's... naive.





   82. Tony S Posted: June 02, 2022 at 08:39 AM (#6079479)
there is no reason that teachers or other school staff should have firearms in schools.


Security theater, school-shootings version. It's the Illusion Of A Solution so favored by elected leaders as a way of abdicating dealing with the real underlying problems.
   83. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: June 02, 2022 at 11:29 AM (#6079493)
Do you want to give cops (government) even MORE power over citizens than they have now? That's... naive.


No more naive than believing your guns will protect you against the government, should it turn against you.
   84. Cris E Posted: June 02, 2022 at 12:03 PM (#6079496)
there is no reason that teachers or other school staff should have firearms in schools.
that is an absurdly terrible idea.
we have metal detectors at entrances and "school resource officers" (security) for a reason.
if anyone should be armed in a school, which is at best arguable, it should solely be trained law enforcement personnel.


Parkland had an armed security guard. I won't name the poor deputy here, but he did the sensible thing and hid in a stairwell for 45 minutes until things died down, so to speak. Preventing school shootings is a complicated issue, but huge magazines and rapid fire make it hard to fault one guy for not standing up and getting cut down immediately. You need to rein in the firepower available on the street if you expect more than a tiny number of people to willingly engage these shooters on an individual basis. (But arming teachers is madness, in case there's any doubt about that.)
   85. Mr. Hotfoot Jackson (gef, talking mongoose) Posted: June 02, 2022 at 12:37 PM (#6079501)
He's Ralphie from A Christmas Story ... he's convinced he needs his Red Ryder for when Black Bart (who is probably a Mexican) and his gang come over the fence.
Also, I will quibble ... I wouldn't use inane ... I'd go with insane.


I remember going to supper with a group of about 15 people some 7 years ago. Two of those present made a point of letting us know that they were packing, & that they were sitting where they were sitting in case a shooter burst in through the front door. One of the two was in a wheelchair because of spina bifida, so I guess that could contribute to a certain feeling of vulnerability? But still.

And the second guy had noted on FB that his wife never opened their door at home without a gun on her person.

These people are ... not well, period, & I suspect are beyond help. Well, actually the second guy is neither well nor not well but definitely beyond help, as he died a few years back.
   86. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 02, 2022 at 12:40 PM (#6079502)
National Review: Canada’s Gun Ban Is What Democrats Want in America

Gee, I wonder why?

Firearm-related deaths per 100,000 people:

United States: 12.21
Canada: 2.05
   87. sotapop Posted: June 02, 2022 at 12:41 PM (#6079504)
But I think once you agree that regulating guns IN SOME MANNER is OK, then you pretty much have to agree that the 2nd amendment is not absolute.

Apologies if this is already in the thread (I didn't see it on a search) and IANAL, but in the Heller decision, even Scalia (writing the opinion for the conservative majority) said the 2A right is not absolute.

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. [long list of citations] Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.
We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. [another citation] ... We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.”


It goes on to address the argument that the 2A's militia clause means people should be able to have weapons in common use at the time and suitable for military use. Even if you accept that, and that a militia today would need advanced weapons, he writes, that does not change the interpretation that laws can prohibit use of certain weapons.

pages 54-55 here: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf
   88. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 02, 2022 at 01:32 PM (#6079512)
It's an empty statement. No rights are "absolute." That provides absolutely no information about where the boundaries of a right are.

If I say that it ought to be illegal to criticize Joe Biden, and you say "Free speech," and I say, "Well, no rights are absolute," has that platitude added anything to the discussion?
   89. sotapop Posted: June 02, 2022 at 01:53 PM (#6079517)
David- true. just wanted to note that at least the justices who made up the conservative SC majority at that time left room for at least some regulation of firearms. the current majority might feel differently, of course.
   90. Tony S Posted: June 02, 2022 at 05:16 PM (#6079542)
No more naive than believing your guns will protect you against the government, should it turn against you.


Ah, I'm well aware of that. I just want to have a fighting chance if a couple of Proud Boys thugs show up to harass me and my partner because they're triggered by the rainbow flag on my property.

If we do get gun control, there's a very strong chance it will be enforced unevenly. And probably not in my favor.

But yes, if the government decides to crush me, no AK-47s are going to bail me out. That is true. But at that point, we're all going to have bigger problems.
   91. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: June 02, 2022 at 05:43 PM (#6079545)
The problems we have now with that type of weaponry are already big enough.
   92. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 02, 2022 at 05:52 PM (#6079546)
- speaking of Black people anyone notice that no matter how bad the neighborhood that no one is goin around shootin up little kidz in skoolz???
Mass shooting by race & ethnicity from 1982 - June 2022:
Between 1982 and June 2022, 68 out of the 129 mass shootings in the United States were carried out by white shooters. By comparison, the perpetrator was African American in 21 mass shootings, and Latino in 11. When calculated as percentages, this amounts to 53 percent, 16 percent, and 8.5 percent respectively.
More at link.
   93. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 02, 2022 at 06:09 PM (#6079548)
If we do get gun control, there's a very strong chance it will be enforced unevenly. And probably not in my favor.


If it isn't, it would be the first law in history that wasn't.
   94. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 02, 2022 at 06:22 PM (#6079549)
Statistica actually got those stats from this study, A Multivariate Comparison of Family, Felony, and Public Mass Murders in the United States, which I came a cross while looking for this study, Race and mass murder in the United States: A social and behavioral analysis. The TL;DR summary of these two studies is that (1) there's not much difference in the demographics between murderers and mass murderers, and (2) the difference between the two is access to the appropriate firearms.

   95. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: June 02, 2022 at 10:25 PM (#6079622)
Firearm-related deaths per 100,000 people:

United States: 12.21
Canada: 2.05

Those figures are from when, Andy? Bear in mind that Canada didn't have a major gun violence issue prior to Fidel Trudeau in 2020 exploiting a single mass shooting in Nova Scotia and banned many different classes of semi-automatic rifles.
   96. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 02, 2022 at 11:08 PM (#6079654)
Citations to “firearms-related” deaths or “gun deaths” are often presented without further definition, and may leave the impression that homicides are being tallied. In fact, about two-thirds of those deaths are suicides.
   97. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 02, 2022 at 11:17 PM (#6079660)
"Let's ignore suicides" is your position? Even if you do, that leaves the US homicides by gun at 2X Canada's homicide + suicide rate. Ignore the problem as long as you can score internet points?
   98. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 02, 2022 at 11:25 PM (#6079665)

Parkland had an armed security guard. I won't name the poor deputy here, but he did the sensible thing and hid in a stairwell for 45 minutes until things died down, so to speak. Preventing school shootings is a complicated issue, but huge magazines and rapid fire make it hard to fault one guy for not standing up and getting cut down immediately. You need to rein in the firepower available on the street if you expect more than a tiny number of people to willingly engage these shooters on an individual basis. (But arming teachers is madness, in case there's any doubt about that.)


It's funny though that these shooters target "gun free zones" like schools. They don't target places where a lot of people may be armed. High capacity magazines make little difference. A skilled marksman can change magazines very quickly. Or you can kill lots of people with a couple of gallons of gasoline, or a truck (pace Waukesha).

It's also funny that no one cares about all the people killed in inner cities because of the de-policing of the last two years. It's only when a mass shooting occurs that anyone cares. Yet the people killed in ones an twos in Chicago and NY and Baltimore are just as dead.
   99. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 02, 2022 at 11:32 PM (#6079670)
They don't target places where a lot of people may be armed.


Where pray tell are places where would be mass murderers know that a lot of people may or may not be armed? Texas has among the most liberal open or concealed carry laws in the country. Yet we have in recent years El Paso, Sutherland Springs, Midland-Odessa.. Please tell me how the El Paso shooter knew that no one would be packing in the Walmart?
   100. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 02, 2022 at 11:41 PM (#6079677)
It's also funny that no one cares about all the people killed in inner cities because of the de-policing of the last two years. It's only when a mass shooting occurs that anyone cares. Yet the people killed in ones an twos in Chicago and NY and Baltimore are just as dead.


Given how we saw the police react in Uvalde, and how defenders of the police cite Supreme Court decisions that say the police are not required to protect the pubic, I don't think that supports any argument you might be making.
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