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Tuesday, October 25, 2011

Rangers Beat Cardinals 4-2 to Take 3-2 Series Lead

Bring in the intentional walk specialist!

Mike Napoli hit a tiebreaking two-run double in the eighth inning against Marc Rzepczynski, and the Texas Rangers rallied from a two-run deficit to beat the St. Louis Cardinals 4-2 on Monday night and take a 3-2 World Series lead.

Solo home runs by Mitch Moreland in the third and Adrian Beltre in the sixth off Chris Carpenter sparked the Texas comeback. Michael Young doubled off loser Octavio Dotel leading off the eighth.

Darren Oliver got the win in relief of C.J. Wilson, and Neftali Feliz finished for the save, striking out Albert Pujols as part of a double play when Allen Craig was caught stealing second.

Repoz Posted: October 25, 2011 at 03:53 AM | 227 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: cardinals, game recaps, rangers

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1. Tripon Posted: October 25, 2011 at 03:59 AM (#3974540)

I hope somebody questions why LaRussa brought Lynn to intentionally walk ONE BATTER.

2. Cabbage Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:05 AM (#3974544)

Or why Craig tried to steal

3. JJ1986 Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:07 AM (#3974545)

NA-PO-LI

4. greenback does not like sand

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:07 AM (#3974546)

Apparently he wanted Motte to get warm, but Lynn got up instead.

As was noted in the game chatter, if anybody ever wants to question Cardinals' fans' desires to see TLR gone, the stock answer henceforth will be "2011 World Series Game 5." He didn't cost the Cardinals the game by himself, but he certainly made things worse.

I want to know why no "baseball man" can give Mike Napoli any respect.

5. SouthSideRyan Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:09 AM (#3974547)

Or why Craig tried to steal

Twice.

6. Norcan Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:14 AM (#3974550)

Apparently he wanted Motte to get warm, but Lynn got up instead.

Is that really the reason? That can't be the reason. LaRussa would have acted strangely to seeing the wrong pitcher come trotting in from the bullpen. Maybe he did.

It was reported prior to the game that Lynn was unavailable because he had pitched 2 1/3 innings on Saturday. To still use him but only to buy Motte extra time is an all-time classic LaRussa but ingenious nevertheless.

7. greenback does not like sand

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:16 AM (#3974551)

Craig or Pujols missed a hit-and-run sign in the 7th.

In the 9th the Cardinals were trying to stay out of a double play. Two strikes on the best hitter over the last ten years facing a guy throwing 100, and La Russa's first thought is staying out of the double play. LOL.

8. Kiko Sakata

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:16 AM (#3974552)

As was noted in the game chatter, if anybody ever wants to question Cardinals' fans' desires to see TLR gone, the stock answer henceforth will be "2011 World Series Game 5." He didn't cost the Cardinals the game by himself, but he certainly made things worse.

I know it's small consolation right now, but considering where y'all were at, say, the end of August, the mere fact that the Cardinals were IN Game 5 of the World Series is a pretty big feather in TLR's cap, though. But yes, bringing in a guy to intentionally walk the only batter he faced could well be the lasting image of Tony LaRussa's managerial career.

9. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn)

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:20 AM (#3974555)

It's house money, but there's no need to waste house money. Terribly managed game. All the runnners LOB were infuriating enough without all the usual TLR bullshit.

10. greenback does not like sand

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:24 AM (#3974562)

I know it's small consolation right now, but considering where y'all were at, say, the end of August

It's not small consolation to me. Post-2006 I laugh at nights like this, maybe because I also remember 1985.

Anyway, I'm not sure how much credit I would give to La Russa on that. Whatever the case, Tony La Russa has games where he's got no clue, and he has them at some really inopportune times.

11. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:32 AM (#3974564)

Post-Game 2 Headline - "Albert Pujols lacks leadership"
Post-Game 5 Headline - "Albert Pujols assumes too much leadership"

12. frannyzoo Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:33 AM (#3974566)

The phrase "too clever by half" was invented for TLR, but doesn't quite capture nights like this. Too clever by one-tenth, maybe. That the Motte scenario "worked" will just bring out more "experts" convinced they saw the emperor's fine clothes. Argh, but whaddya gonna do?

13. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:34 AM (#3974568)

As was noted in the game chatter, if anybody ever wants to question Cardinals' fans' desires to see TLR gone, the stock answer henceforth will be "2011 World Series Game 5." He didn't cost the Cardinals the game by himself, but he certainly made things worse.

It's not like using the ROIWGY backfired. And it still wasn't as peculiar as the bases empty IBB to Albert

Now the ninth-inning hit and run - that was just asinine.

14. Rough Carrigan

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:35 AM (#3974569)

This game was a perfect example of why we have to confine a certain ideology to Anaheim and not allow it to become national Scioscialism.

15. Howie Menckel Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:35 AM (#3974570)

Some initial mixed signals on who called the Craig SB attempt in the 9th, based on the post-game interviews - Pujols or the bench. And the Lynn issue still being sort out.

Will be interesting for some to find out the reasons - but not the "post-game interviews are irrelvant" crowd on BBTF. Ignorance is bliss. Reporting is irrelevant. Why find out the details?

16. PeteF3 Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:38 AM (#3974572)

This was definitely a case where I was looking forward to the post-game interviews and where they were quite enlightening, apart from LaRussa's refusal to clarify what happened on the Craig CS in the 7th other than "it was a mix-up." I thought ESPN's coverage of the Scrabble/Lynn/Motte debacle was VERY good, in particular Tim Kurkjian's explanation of the hows and whys and consequences of what happened.

17. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:39 AM (#3974573)

Apparently he wanted Motte to get warm, but Lynn got up instead.

Yes, Tim Kurkjian said there were problems with the bullpen phone. And you thought that thread wasn't relevant!

18. beer on a stick Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:40 AM (#3974574)

TLR has officially gone around the bend. Wait til you hear the press conference.

19. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:40 AM (#3974575)

Tim Kurkjian said there were problems with the bullpen phone.

I blame the phone phreakers.

20. JJ1986 Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:40 AM (#3974576)

Are hitters usually able to call hit-and-runs? Or is that a special privilege awarded to Pujols?

21. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:42 AM (#3974577)

Some initial mixed signals on who called the Craig SB attempt in the 9th, based on the post-game interviews - Pujols or the bench. And the Lynn issue still being sort out.
Will be interesting for some to find out the reasons - but not the "post-game interviews are irrelvant" crowd on BBTF. Ignorance is bliss. Reporting is irrelevant. Why find out the details?

Find out the details? Do you think post game interviews will reveal the truth? How can you discern BS you are fed from the truth?

22. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:42 AM (#3974578)

It was reported prior to the game that Lynn was unavailable because he had pitched 2 1/3 innings on Saturday. To still use him but only to buy Motte extra time is an all-time classic LaRussa but ingenious nevertheless.

Lynn was unavailable but apparently warmed up instead of Motte due to a bullpen phone miscommunication.

23. PeteF3 Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:44 AM (#3974580)

As Ozzie Guillen said on the BBTN set, there is no way the Cards would make up something like "We got the wrong guy warmed up" so I'm inclined to take the story at face value. So yes, the post-game pressers were important to "finding out the details."

24. Ray (CTL)

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:44 AM (#3974581)

2 IBBs ordered by LaRussa.

4 IBBs ordered by Washington, including 3 of Pujols, including 1 of Pujols with a 1-1 count and bases empty. And with two elite hitters -- Holliday and Berkman -- up behind him. What is the advantage gained there? You're putting Pujols on to face two hitters who are almost as good (and who were every bit as good if not better this year)? That is crazy.

3 sac bunts by LaRussa.

Do these managers not understand that the idea is to keep runners OFF the bases on defense and to NOT make outs on offense?

I don't know what to make of the Lynn-Motte thing. I thought it was crazy for the LHP to face Napoli with the game on the line. And thought LaRussa didn't need to burn Lynn just to issue an IBB (why not use last night's starting pitcher to soft toss four balls in there?) Now apparently the wrong guy was warming up, which is perhaps even more bizarre.

(What was the playoff game a few years ago, where the third base coach said he yelled "No, no, no!" and the runner said he heard "Go, go, go!" and so he blew through the stop sign to get thrown out on a back-breaking play at home?)

Finally, the capper was Craig getting caught stealing not once, but twice with Pujols at the plate. (I thought Napoli sucked at catching and couldn't throw?) The 7th inning one, with McBuck speculating that Pujols put on the hit-and-run (Why would Pujols do this? Why would LaRussa let him do this?) was bizarre enough.

But then LaRusssa continually sending Craig on 3-2 in the 9th inning with Pujols up as the tying run (and Holliday and Berkman to follow) was the final step on the way to Funnyland. What does sending Craig buy you? You maybe avoid a force at second, maybe stay out of the double play. But the chance of Craig getting doubled up on a line drive offsets that. And the chance of Craig getting thrown out at second on a strikeout makes the decision insane. And Pujols almost looked like he was swinging at ball fours just to protect Craig, given the randomness of the strike zone.

Truly wild game.

25. PeteF3 Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:44 AM (#3974583)

Kurkjian also pointed out that you can't see the visitor bullpen from the visitor dugout at the Ballpark in Arlington. Throw in the fact that Lynn and Motte are both bearded guys who kind of look alike and the Cards had no idea what was actually going on.

26. musial6 Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:46 AM (#3974584)

It's not small consolation to me. Post-2006 I laugh at nights like this, maybe because I also remember 1985.

All you can do is laugh.

I certainly don't have the words to express how I feel about that game. Just trying to find the words would probably result in me staying up all night and re-enacting the intro scene of Apocalypse Now...

House money. Home field advantage. Put everything else out of your mind.

27. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:47 AM (#3974585)

LaRussa's refusal to clarify what happened on the Craig CS in the 7th other than "it was a mix-up."

Just guessing that might indicate Pujols put on the play, since TLR would be extremely reluctant to point the finger at his star player at a time when retaining his services beyond this year is in some doubt.

28. PeteF3 Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:49 AM (#3974586)

Possibly, but I took it to mean either the 3B coach flashed the wrong sign or Craig mis-read the sign.

29. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:50 AM (#3974588)

Finally, the capper was Craig getting caught stealing not once, but twice with Pujols at the plate. (I thought Napoli sucked at catching and couldn't throw?) The 7th inning one, with McBuck speculating that Pujols put on the hit-and-run (Why would Pujols do this? Why would LaRussa let him do this?) was bizarre enough.

But then LaRusssa continually sending Craig on 3-2 in the 9th inning with Pujols up as the tying run (and Holliday and Berkman to follow) was the final step on the way to Funnyland. What does sending Craig buy you? You maybe avoid a force at second, maybe stay out of the double play. But the chance of Craig getting doubled up on a line drive offsets that. And the chance of Craig getting thrown out at second on a strikeout makes the decision insane. And Pujols almost looked like he was swinging at ball fours just to protect Craig, given the randomness of the strike zone.

Truly wild game.

If you read this in James Mason's voice, it is truly exquisite.

30. greenback does not like sand

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:50 AM (#3974589)

It's not like using the ROIWGY backfired. And it still wasn't as peculiar as the bases empty IBB to Albert

The IBB was merely goofy, although it doesn't speak well of the Cardinals that the bullpen coach apparently didn't know that Lance Lynn was unavailable tonight. Ultimately they walked Cruz so they could face Napoli, which is peculiar in a bad way.

Some initial mixed signals on who called the Craig SB attempt in the 9th, based on the post-game interviews

This is baloney. Craig was running on the two previous pitches.

31. Ray (CTL)

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:51 AM (#3974590)

Are hitters usually able to call hit-and-runs? Or is that a special privilege awarded to Pujols?

I don't understand why hitters would be allowed to do this. What is the thinking behind the manager allowing them that power? I can see, say, the manager giving a good base stealer the perpetual green light, but what is the comparison to a hitter being allowed to call hit-and-run? Why not have the first baseman make pitching changes, while he's at it?

32. Ray (CTL)

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:53 AM (#3974591)

Will be interesting for some to find out the reasons - but not the "post-game interviews are irrelvant" crowd on BBTF. Ignorance is bliss. Reporting is irrelevant. Why find out the details?

What that crowd actually said was that demanding that a player "stand up and be accountable when he screws up" is silly. Not that it was silly to ask him what he was thinking on a particular play.

33. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn)

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:53 AM (#3974592)

Why not have the first baseman make pitching changes, while he's at it?

Keith Hernandez used to call pitches!

Seriously, #### Game 5.

34. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:54 AM (#3974593)

As Ozzie Guillen said on the BBTN set, there is no way the Cards would make up something like "We got the wrong guy warmed up" so I'm inclined to take the story at face value. So yes, the post-game pressers were important to "finding out the details."

“To talk to Motte, you’ve got to talk to 30 different coaches, and then to the bullpen catcher, who talks to Arthur Rhodes. Arthur calls Octavio, Octavio say he’s with Marc, Marc say he’s with Lance.”

35. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:56 AM (#3974595)

Just guessing that might indicate Pujols put on the play, since TLR would be extremely reluctant to point the finger at his star player at a time when retaining his services beyond this year is in some doubt.

If Pujols put on the play, then why didn't he swing? It's not optional with the hit-and-run (unless the count is full Albert - you can take that one).

36. Ray (CTL)

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:57 AM (#3974596)

Craig: has stolen 5 of 6 bases in the majors. 14 of 18 in the minors.

Still made zero sense for him to go. And after LaRusssa "spoke to him" after the first CS, to find the two of them (or three, if we include Pujols) up to the same nonsense in the 9th, this time with everything on the line, was hilarious.

I don't like the hit-and-run on 3-2 with less than two out when the run actually MEANS something. When the run means nothing it is truly unfathomable.

37. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:57 AM (#3974597)

Is it just me or have IBBs exploded this year? Managers seem to be using them all the time (and it pisses me off almost all the time).

38. MM1f Posted: October 25, 2011 at 04:58 AM (#3974598)

although it doesn't speak well of the Cardinals that the bullpen coach apparently didn't know that Lance Lynn was unavailable tonight. Ultimately they walked Cruz so they could face Napoli, which is peculiar in a bad way.

If Tony LaRussa tells you to warm a guy up in a World Series game, you warm him the #### up. What kind of bullpen coach is gonna say "Nope, can't do it Tony, Lynn is off today"?

Now, whether LaRussa ever asked for Lynn to warm up is an open question, but if I hear my manager tell me to warm a guy up... I warm him up.

39. Ray (CTL)

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 05:00 AM (#3974599)

If Tony LaRussa tells you to warm a guy up in a World Series game, you warm him the #### up. What kind of bullpen coach is gonna say "Nope, can't do it Tony, Lynn is off today."?

What kind of a bullpen coach DOESN'T say, "Um, Tony, didn't we agree Lynn was off today? Just want to make sure I understand who you want up."

40. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: October 25, 2011 at 05:02 AM (#3974600)

I don't like the hit-and-run on 3-2 with less than two out when the run actually MEANS something. When the run means nothing it is truly unfathomable.

Plus a high strikeout but strike-zone challenged pitcher (at least this series), who deftly managed to do both on the same pitch.

41. greenback does not like sand

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 05:04 AM (#3974601)

If Tony LaRussa tells you to warm a guy up in a World Series game, you warm him the #### up. What kind of bullpen coach is gonna say "Nope, can't do it Tony, Lynn is off today."?

I would repeat back "Lance Lynn? Do you mean Motte, because earlier you said Lynn wasn't available." It's not that difficult.

EDIT: RC to Ray. Never saw his post.

Tie game, 8th inning, runners on, World Series tied 2-2, it really should be obvious who gets the call there anyway.

42. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: October 25, 2011 at 05:05 AM (#3974603)

Kurkjian also pointed out that you can't see the visitor bullpen from the visitor dugout at the Ballpark in Arlington.

Not the first ballpark to include such a feature. pretty hilarious story.

sucky bullpens

43. AJMcCringleberry Posted: October 25, 2011 at 05:05 AM (#3974604)

If Tony LaRussa tells you to warm a guy up in a World Series game, you warm him the #### up. What kind of bullpen coach is gonna say "Nope, can't do it Tony, Lynn is off today."?

There is something in between "whatever you say" and "no ####### way".

44. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: October 25, 2011 at 05:08 AM (#3974605)

Why wasn't Lynn in the clubhouse eating chicken and drinking beer?

45. Ray (CTL)

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 05:08 AM (#3974606)

I seriously wonder what Mike Scioscia is thinking right now, after seeing the game Napoli had, after seeing the postseason Napoli has had, after seeing the season Napoli has had. Can he seriously still believe that Jeff Mathis is better.

Maybe he's just thinking "See? 8th place hitter."

I suppose if he couldn't see who the better player was last year, he'll still have the blinders on this year.

46. Ray (CTL)

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 05:10 AM (#3974608)

Why wasn't Lynn in the clubhouse eating chicken and drinking beer?

Because Joe Torre is now on the case.

Seriously, if he was in the clubhouse they'd have been better off. So Lester and Beckett and Lackey WERE helping the team!

47. MM1f Posted: October 25, 2011 at 05:11 AM (#3974609)

What kind of a bullpen coach DOESN'T say, "Um, Tony, didn't we agree Lynn was off today? Just want to make sure I understand who you want up."

Maybe in the regular season. Maybe.

In the post-season? No way. You warm up who TLR tells you to warm up. Tony said this himself in the postgame presser, you warm up who the manager tells you to warm up. I'm pretty sure this would be the case with any team. You don't have time during a World Series game to be asking your manager if he is sure about a decision he just made. Plus, the bullpen coach is about as far down on coaching staff's decision making chain as it gets.
Hell, the Rangers had Matt Harrison throwing down there tonight! Do you think the Rangers bullpen coached asked Washington, "Say, are you sure you want me to tell Harrison to throw? I thought you said you were going to pitch him in Game Seven?"

Now, should the bullpen coach have asked "Did you say 'Motte' or 'Lynn'? I couldn't really hear you." Yeah, that would have been a good question

48. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: October 25, 2011 at 05:42 AM (#3974611)

(What was the playoff game a few years ago, where the third base coach said he yelled "No, no, no!" and the runner said he heard "Go, go, go!" and so he blew through the stop sign to get thrown out on a back-breaking play at home?)

That was Don Zimmer's CYA story after he got Doyle thrown out on a short fly to LF in the 1975 WS.
I don't believe him: you hold runners by putting your arms up, not by yelling, and if you look at the DVD Zimmer's arms are down & he's just watching the play.

Oh, and since we're questioning manager strategies... I know it's a night too late, but my Awesome GF is still mad about Washington lifting Holland in the 9th last night. When Wash went to the mound, GF went into Full Lasorda Meltdown: "WHY THE #### ISN'T HE LETTING THAT KID FINISH THE ####### GAME? I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS ############ ####." She's not a particular fan of either team, or even of baseball particularly, but it was about as impressive a display of sports-related profanity as I've ever witnessed.

49. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 25, 2011 at 05:45 AM (#3974612)

47 comments and no mention of how TLR sends Nick Effing Punto up there with runners in scoring position in key situations time after time after effing time?

50. Swedish Chef Posted: October 25, 2011 at 06:00 AM (#3974617)

The baseball gods really wants to rub it in for the Angels.

51. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 25, 2011 at 06:03 AM (#3974618)

Oh, and the bullpen thing absolutely illustrates the problem with bullpen phones these days:

"To continue in English, press 1. Para continuar en español, presione 2."
[LaRussa presses 1]
"If you'd like to warm up a reliever, press 1."
[beep]
"If you know the name of the reliever you'd like to warm up, please enter the first three letters of his name now."
[LaRussa attempts to enter M-O-T but accidentally enters M-R-T. Unfortunately, this does not result in Mr. T entering the game.]
"I'm sorry. I don't recognize that extension. To select a reliever by question tree, press 1."
[LaRussa briefly reconsiders his bullpen usage that forces him to go through this system at least 7 times a game, but reminds himself that momentary platoon advantages must trump all, and presses 1.]
"For a white reliever, press 1. For a black reliever, press 2. For a Latino reliever, press 3. For an Asian reliever, direct more resources to Pacific Rim scouting."
[1]
"For a right-handed white reliever, press 1. For a left-handed white reliever, spell out as many consonants in a row as you can."
[1]
"For a right-handed white reliever with a beard, press 1-"
[Getting impatient, LaRussa presses 1 and hangs up, thinking that by now the system should damn well know which guy he wants. We know the rest. Sadly, had he known, he could have pressed 0 at any time to speak to a call-center worker in India pretending to be a bullpen coach.]

52. Howie Menckel Posted: October 25, 2011 at 06:05 AM (#3974619)

"How can you discern BS you are fed from the truth?"

Ok, that's why you do 162 games of pre- and post-game interviews and down time together. You get to know 50-60 people in the organization, to a point where you can get an honest background answer from sources that are reliable, if you know what you are doing.

"What that crowd actually said was that demanding that a player "stand up and be accountable when he screws up" is silly. Not that it was silly to ask him what he was thinking on a particular play."

There were two different schools there. I questioned the "why do we need postgame convos" crowd.

Although yes, Pujols also blew it by not explaining himself after that previous game. Still, different issue.

53. PreservedFish Posted: October 25, 2011 at 06:07 AM (#3974620)

If Tony LaRussa tells you to warm a guy up in a World Series game, you warm him the #### up. What kind of bullpen coach is gonna say "Nope, can't do it Tony, Lynn is off today."?

I can't believe there's an argument about this. Maybe the bullpen catcher picked up the phone.

54. esseff Posted: October 25, 2011 at 06:15 AM (#3974622)

47 comments and no mention of how TLR sends Nick Effing Punto up there with runners in scoring position in key situations time after time after effing time?

Against the left-hander Oliver, all he had available were two mediocre left-handed hitters -- Jay and Descalso -- and his emergency catcher (having already used Theriot). It's the price of carrying 8 relievers on the postseason roster.

55. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 25, 2011 at 06:19 AM (#3974625)

It's the price of carrying 8 relievers on the postseason roster.

A small price to pay for the luxury of a designated IBB Guy.

56. asdf1234 Posted: October 25, 2011 at 07:06 AM (#3974628)

I called this game boring in the other thread, but I misspoke. The game was frustrating to the point that I was resigned to a loss by the middle innings, a feeling that came early and often all season until September. TLR's disastrous night has been well chronicled by others, but the experience of watching what should have been a tense, exciting game was also ruined by Washington's incompetence--I have a hard time enjoying a close game when its decision-makers are making obvious, foolish mistakes at least once an inning. The first two games of the series were excellent, but I can't find much good to say about the last three. Maybe Game 4 if you're feeling charitable or forgetful re: inserting your worst pitcher to face their best hitter.

One thing's for sure: after last night's performance, neither of these managers deserves to win the series. Ugly, bad game on both sides.

57. Phil Coorey. Posted: October 25, 2011 at 07:07 AM (#3974629)

47 comments and no mention of how TLR sends Nick Effing Punto up there with runners in scoring position in key situations time after time after effing time?

55 comments and no mention of how Nick Punto tried to break a bat over his knee, and failed!

58. asdf1234 Posted: October 25, 2011 at 07:24 AM (#3974630)

It's not small consolation to me. Post-2006 I laugh at nights like this, maybe because I also remember 1985.

I have only vague memories of 85, most of them probably manufactured by recollection, but I remember 1996 and 2000 very well. At least we haven't had any pitchers starting on three days' rest for no discernible reason. Watching Ankiel fall apart and then Kile getting bombed while going on three days' rest was even worse. The way things were going for a while early in TLR's run, it's a feather in the cap we haven't seen any careers ruined this postseason, knock on wood.

You're right, though--2006 dulls the pain of games like this one or this one--http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PIT/PIT200807120.shtml--by half.

59. Greg K Posted: October 25, 2011 at 08:13 AM (#3974634)

55 comments and no mention of how Nick Punto tried to break a bat over his knee, and failed!

At first base too. I mean, if he's surprised Murphy caught it why was he carrying his bat all the way to first?

60. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: October 25, 2011 at 12:03 PM (#3974659)

I'm happy baseball is getting good ratings. Not because I give two shits, but if it will shut up the dittoheads on talk radio and in the sports press for five minutes about the death of baseball, great. Oh, also, it's good ratings for a team not from a coastal enclave...though I never understood the gnashing of teeth about this matchup, market-wise. Aren't St. Louis and Dallas-Ft. Worth pretty good markets?

61. vern_fuller_brushback Posted: October 25, 2011 at 12:07 PM (#3974660)

One thing's for sure: after last night's performance, neither of these managers deserves to win the series. Ugly, bad game on both sides.

My thoughts exactly, and both those guys have HUGE egos IMO. (I used the word 'ugly' several times last night, along with a lot of unprintable stuff that caused my wife to run to another part of the house.) My heart has been with the Rangers since before they were the Rangers and I have never been so nervous watching since 1967, back when the Toronto Maple Leafs were an item. In spite of all the foolishness, the worst move was starting Wilson again! I would have picked Feldman or Ogando. OK RonWash knows his players better than we do but it goes without saying that we were very very fortunate that the Cards didn't take that game, and easily!

62. and Posted: October 25, 2011 at 12:17 PM (#3974664)

Are hitters usually able to call hit-and-runs? Or is that a special privilege awarded to Pujols?

I don't understand why hitters would be allowed to do this. What is the thinking behind the manager allowing them that power? I can see, say, the manager giving a good base stealer the perpetual green light, but what is the comparison to a hitter being allowed to call hit-and-run? Why not have the first baseman make pitching changes, while he's at it?

If Pujols called it, there should be video. As for me, I do not believe he called it - or ever would call it. He's a great hitter, and he might suggest it leaving the dugout, but hitters do not call plays from the box. And, as others have said, if he called the first hit and run, he'd have swung, even knowing he'd miss, to protect the runner. It's a fundamental play. The play in the 9th was pretty classic. He chased ball four and that is the reason I don't like sending runners. I think adding up risk of getting thrown out, doubled off, avoiding the double play, getting a good jump on base hit, etc. all comes out to a wash. But the risk of having a hitter swing at ball four that they would normally take swings the balance.

I called this game boring in the other thread, but I misspoke. The game was frustrating to the point that I was resigned to a loss by the middle innings, a feeling that came early and often all season until September. TLR's disastrous night has been well chronicled by others, but the experience of watching what should have been a tense, exciting game was also ruined by Washington's incompetence--I have a hard time enjoying a close game when its decision-makers are making obvious, foolish mistakes at least once an inning. The first two games of the series were excellent, but I can't find much good to say about the last three. Maybe Game 4 if you're feeling charitable or forgetful re: inserting your worst pitcher to face their best hitter.

Dude, if you're not enjoying this World Series it might be time for a new hobby.

63. and Posted: October 25, 2011 at 12:22 PM (#3974665)

In spite of all the foolishness, the worst move was starting Wilson again! I would have picked Feldman or Ogando.

So the foolish thing was starting your ace? The guy with a sub 3 ERA? Okeedokee.

I think maybe some folks are getting a little to eager to criticize managers.

64. Guapo Posted: October 25, 2011 at 12:24 PM (#3974667)

#51 = awesome

65. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: October 25, 2011 at 12:38 PM (#3974671)

La Russa GIF after Napoli's double

66. Mike Emeigh

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 12:41 PM (#3974673)

4 IBBs ordered by Washington, including 3 of Pujols, including 1 of Pujols with a 1-1 count and bases empty. And with two elite hitters -- Holliday and Berkman -- up behind him. What is the advantage gained there?

When you have a lefty pitching in this situation, it makes some sense to walk Pujols. Holliday isn't 100%, is more likely to hit the ball on the ground than is Pujols, and has a reverse platoon split anyway. Berkman is a much worse hitter right-handed than left-handed.

With Ogando pitching in a tie game (which was the case on the last IBB) it makes much less sense.

In either case, I'd be more inclined to try the "unintentional intentional walk" strategy. Pujols has been known to expand the strike zone on occasion.

-- MWE

67. i don't vibrate on the frequency of the 57i66135 Posted: October 25, 2011 at 12:54 PM (#3974685)

La Russa GIF after Napoli's double

68. Lassus Posted: October 25, 2011 at 12:54 PM (#3974686)

One thing's for sure: after last night's performance, neither of these managers deserves to win the series. Ugly, bad game on both sides.

I have to say I loved last night's game, with all the managerial lunacy included, and I really think those of the above opinion sit and stare at blank walls for fun, sorry.

(I watched Bobby V. IBB two guys to load the bases and lose a playoff series, still have actual nightmares about it, and I still think like that. Maybe because of that.)

69. Dan Evensen Posted: October 25, 2011 at 12:54 PM (#3974687)

(What was the playoff game a few years ago, where the third base coach said he yelled "No, no, no!" and the runner said he heard "Go, go, go!" and so he blew through the stop sign to get thrown out on a back-breaking play at home?)

That was the bottom of the 9th inning of the 1975 World Series Game 6, when the Red Sox had the bases loaded with nobody out. Don Zimmer was the coach, and Denny Doyle was the runner. George Foster caught a ball barely in foul ground down the left field line, and Doyle was easily thrown out. Proof on Wikipedia. I believe it is also mentioned in Joe Posnanski's book about the 1975 Reds and on the old 1975 World Series film, among other places.

By the way, I am absolutely appalled that nobody answered this question yet. Truly, the Baseball Gods are weeping.

70. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 25, 2011 at 01:01 PM (#3974692)

I'm happy baseball is getting good ratings. Not because I give two shits, but if it will shut up the dittoheads on talk radio and in the sports press for five minutes about the death of baseball, great.

No chance of this. None. Dislodging a meme from a sportswriter's head is like trying to force Jupiter to spin the other way.

71. stanmvp48 Posted: October 25, 2011 at 01:03 PM (#3974696)

1)Three sacrifices and two caught stealings if I read the box score correctly.
2) I have never heard of a hitter having the authority to call a hit and run and I can't imagine a power hitter doing so.
3) McCarver thought that having Craig run in the 9th was good strategy until he was caught. What a douche bag.

72. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2011 at 01:12 PM (#3974703)

McCarver thought that having Craig run in the 9th was good strategy until he was caught. What a douche bag.

That was unfathomable to me.

Down 2, with Pujols, Holliday and Berkman coming up, and you're running?

73. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: October 25, 2011 at 01:16 PM (#3974705)

I thought Zim's send was defensible. It's the game winning run in a must stay alive game. If he doesn't go, then there are two outs and you need a hit. There's about a 26% chance of a hit...so were the odds of Doyle scoring greater than that? Seems so to me...even on a shallow fly, a lot has to go right on a play at the plate.

74. Andere Richtingen

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 01:24 PM (#3974711)

As intensely as I dislike LaRussa, I am relieved to learn the real reasons for last night's gaffes in handling the bullpen. LaRussa as just plain crazy is not as interesting as LaRussa as the overstrategerizing managerator.

That said, I do wonder if the failure to communicate reflects his domineering style, which let's face it, seems to have worked pretty well for a very long time. While the manager needs to be the clear decision maker, you would think that when something odd is communicated to the bullpen coach, that he would insist on it being made very, very clear that they were on the same page. Not questioning the decision, but making sure that he has effectively executed the intended order. One reason that might have happened is that the bullpen coach was not even thinking about it. Or maybe this sort of error is an outcome of a military style command chain where no one dares to question in the slightest anything uttered by the general.

75. Justin T's pasta pass was not revoked Posted: October 25, 2011 at 01:28 PM (#3974712)

La Russa GIF after Napoli's double

Almost positive that was when the comebacker to Scrabble went off his glove and away from Punto.

76. vern_fuller_brushback Posted: October 25, 2011 at 01:33 PM (#3974715)

I really think those of the above opinion sit and stare at blank walls for fun, sorry.

um, no - I don't think you care about one of these teams as much as I do, that's all.

77. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: October 25, 2011 at 01:38 PM (#3974717)

#75, I think you're right (but they did replay it after the double)

78. Shredder Posted: October 25, 2011 at 01:49 PM (#3974731)

While the manager needs to be the clear decision maker, you would think that when something odd is communicated to the bullpen coach, that he would insist on it being made very, very clear that they were on the same page. Not questioning the decision, but making sure that he has effectively executed the intended order.

My feeling as well. If the manager tells everyone in the world before the game that a certain guy is unavailable, then he asks you to get that guy warmed up, don't you say "Just to be clear, Tony, you're asking to get Lynn up, right? I mean, I'll do it, just making sure, since you said you weren't going to use him today". That would have taken five seconds.

79. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: October 25, 2011 at 01:57 PM (#3974740)

According to the paper, Pujols said he did call for the 7th inning hit-and-run. And decided not to swing because it was "99 and outside."

So I guess there's something contagious on the field.

80. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:03 PM (#3974748)

By the way, I am absolutely appalled that nobody answered this question yet. Truly, the Baseball Gods are weeping.

It was answered 7 hours ago in #48.

No mention yet of Carpenter mouthing off again? Supposedly he swore at Napoli after Napoli's long fly-out. Sounds like the Brewers are true American whistle-blower heroes.

81. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:04 PM (#3974750)

According to the paper, Pujols said he did call for the 7th inning hit-and-run.

I can't imagine why a hitter has that power. Can he call for a steal?

82. J. Sosa Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:07 PM (#3974754)

re: 78 and other posts on the same topic

I subscribe to the TLR dictator theory. What part of TLR's history would give a bullpen coach the opinion that it would be a good idea to question TLR?

Having Lance Lynn pitch after saying he wasn't available strikes me as something TLR would absolutely do. After all the other stuff he does would that even seem odd to the bullpen coach? I don't think so. He probably just thought TLR do what TLR do to borrow a phrase.

83. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:15 PM (#3974761)

No mention yet of Carpenter mouthing off again? Supposedly he swore at Napoli after Napoli's long fly-out. Sounds like the Brewers are true American whistle-blower heroes.

Indeed. This was completely forgotten by the press. Even in the chatter it was barely noticed. The genius of TLR, with all the other bs going on, everybody forgot about Carpenter.

84. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:22 PM (#3974771)

No mention yet of Carpenter mouthing off again? Supposedly he swore at Napoli after Napoli's long fly-out. Sounds like the Brewers are true American whistle-blower heroes.

On FOX's shot of Carp's reaction, it didn't look like he was yelling AT Napoli, but he definitely said, "F___ yeah!" and had a CM-Punk-type reaction.

85. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:28 PM (#3974779)

"For a right-handed white reliever, press 1. For a left-handed white reliever, spell out as many consonants in a row as you can."
[1]
"For a right-handed white reliever with a beard, press 1-"

:-D

Is that really the reason? That can't be the reason. LaRussa would have acted strangely to seeing the wrong pitcher come trotting in from the bullpen. Maybe he did.

Don't blame LaRussa -- Lynn and Motte look exactly the same. From now on one of them has to dye his hillbilly beard Spiezio red.

86. Ray (CTL)

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:29 PM (#3974781)

I have to say I loved last night's game, with all the managerial lunacy included, and I really think those of the above opinion sit and stare at blank walls for fun, sorry.

The players deserve better than what we saw out of LaRussa and Washington last night.

The game deserves better.

87. Ray (CTL)

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:30 PM (#3974784)

That was the bottom of the 9th inning of the 1975 World Series Game 6, when the Red Sox had the bases loaded with nobody out. Don Zimmer was the coach, and Denny Doyle was the runner. George Foster caught a ball barely in foul ground down the left field line, and Doyle was easily thrown out. Proof on Wikipedia. I believe it is also mentioned in Joe Posnanski's book about the 1975 Reds and on the old 1975 World Series film, among other places.

This was one, but there was also one even more recently, like 5 years ago.

88. Ray (CTL)

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:33 PM (#3974787)

3) McCarver thought that having Craig run in the 9th was good strategy until he was caught. What a douche bag.

I like how McCarver, in justifying the move pre-CS, all but guaranteed us that Pujols wouldn't strike out.

As I said above, I don't like the hit and run, but if Craig were the _tying_ run and so might tie the game on a gapper, perhaps you run there. (I still wouldn't do it, but it's at least defensible. I guess.) But when his run means nothing? It's hard to believe.

89. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:33 PM (#3974788)

I have never heard of a hitter having the authority to call a hit and run and I can't imagine a power hitter doing so.

Apparently, it's a rare privilege reserved for exceptional hitters (or exceptional hit & run hitters). I've heard of it before, but it's probably not talked about too much because managers don't want to explain why some hitters have the power and some don't, and also want to avoid tipping opponents to be especially vigilant for the batter's hit & run sign when certain hitters are up.

90. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:36 PM (#3974793)

On FOX's shot of Carp's reaction, it didn't look like he was yelling AT Napoli, but he definitely said, "F___ yeah!" and had a CM-Punk-type reaction.

my lip reading indicated he said 'F yeah/you, you P.O.S.'

91. Joey B. is counting the days to Trea Turner Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:41 PM (#3974805)

Pujols may be one of the all-time great hitters, but he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, that's for damn sure. Clearly he doesn't deserve to have this privilege granted to him.

92. Justin T's pasta pass was not revoked Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:42 PM (#3974806)

No mention yet of Carpenter mouthing off again? Supposedly he swore at Napoli after Napoli's long fly-out. Sounds like the Brewers are true American whistle-blower heroes.

I half-expected Carpenter to be yapping at Beltre after his homer, straining himself to interpret the on his knee finish as showboating rather than the natural ending of that sort of swing.

93. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:42 PM (#3974810)

my lip reading indicated he said 'F yeah/you, you P.O.S.'

So, Carpenter is worse than ~~Hitler~~ John Lackey?

94. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:44 PM (#3974813)

Apparently, it's a rare privilege reserved for exceptional hitters (or exceptional hit & run hitters).

Tim McCarver said Dick Groat had that privilege!

This was one, but there was also one even more recently, like 5 years ago.

Yea, I want to say Dale Sveum was involved.

La Russa GIF after Napoli's double

I think that was Murphy's comebacker to Rzep because I distinctly remember laughing at TLR after that

55 comments and no mention of how Nick Punto tried to break a bat over his knee, and failed!

That quickly eclipsed TLR on the Unintentional Comedy Rating.

This has been an awesome World Series - best since 1991 IMO. Its been a close series. In a close series, there is going to be bad managing - its inevitable. And this series has delivered in SPADES.

95. BDC

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:46 PM (#3974818)

Let me add love for #51. A Primey should be in the morning e-mail :)

96. Ray (CTL)

Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:47 PM (#3974821)

I can't imagine why a hitter has that power. Can he call for a steal?

Too bad he can't call for an override of dumb decisions made by his manager. He could have had the right reliever warming!

---

On the reliever issue, as I understand it, LaRussa's position is that there were TWO screw-ups by the pen:

1. LaRussa called for them to get Rzepczynski and Motte up, and they only got Rzepczynski up. Nobody in the pen, apparently, questioned (at least not to LaRussa) why another reliever wasn't warming behind Rzepczynski.

2. LaRussa noticed that Motte wasn't warming and called again, told them again to get Motte up. They got Lynn up instead, despite Lynn being previously deemed unavailable.

Are the people in the pen that stupid? But blaming it all on LaRussa doesn't really make sense either. For example, take item 1. Now assume that LaRussa is lying and he only called for them to get Rzepczynski up. Well, the pen should have questioned whether he wanted them to get someone up behind Rzepczynski.

Maybe there were errors on both sides? It's odd.

97. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2011 at 02:51 PM (#3974826)

Maybe there were errors on both sides? It's odd.

Having Scrabble face Napoli is definitely odd given their respective splits.

98. just plain joe Posted: October 25, 2011 at 03:00 PM (#3974837)

Everyone is missing the obvious explanation, beer in the Cardinals' bullpen.

99. i don't vibrate on the frequency of the 57i66135 Posted: October 25, 2011 at 03:03 PM (#3974841)

On FOX's shot of Carp's reaction, it didn't look like he was yelling AT Napoli, but he definitely said, "F___ yeah!" and had a CM-Punk-type reaction.

WHAT'S MY ####### NAME?!??

100. stanmvp48 Posted: October 25, 2011 at 03:03 PM (#3974843)

What does GIF mean?

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