Really hard to argue with 1 and 2, when they include a subjective component like historical impact to the game.

That Listich-over-Lofton vote still gnaws at me.

It mentions Ozzie Guillen's "fearless" baserunning. That's not the term I would use. He did mitigate the problem by not getting on base much.

Since the article was nice enough to list the winner and runner up, I decided to see if there was any year that the winner and runner up are both hofers. As of right now I'm at about 40 on the list and the closest is Fred Lynn/Jim Rice, next closest is obviously way to early to call, but Acuna and Soto. (I'm writing this out as I go so that I can just type and not have to remember if I find more) 51 Correa/Lindor(still too soon to call)

Found one, well not technically because he's not in the hof yet, but is at least worthy. Whitaker/Molitor. Now another one, but again a special circumstance in that one of the names is in because of both player and coaching career, Billy Williams/Joe Torre. A miss with Rod Carew/Reggie Smith (who I do think made the hall of merit, which is good enough for this exercise also)

My parents' 25th wedding anniversary was Ichiro's ROY / MVP year. My brothers and I got them tickets to a Mariners game, right down the first base line. My mom, who is in no way a sports fan, had the time of her life, because she thought Ichiro was the coolest thing that had happened in forever. I wish I could remember which game it was, but it would have been July or August, because you don't want to send your parents to Seattle in April as a "gift."

Molitor and Trammell - not Whitaker, alas - are on the same 1978 Topps rookie card along with U.L. Washington and Mickey Klutts.

The Whitaker card from the same year also has Garth Iorg, Sam Perlozzo, and Dave Oliver. these are "Rookie Second Basemen" while Molitor's card was "Rookie Shortstops."

A third Tiger, Jack Morris, is on a Rookie Pitchers card alongside Larry Andersen, Mickey Mahler, and Tim Jones.

Eddie Murray didn't get a prospective 1977 rookie card, but he gets a full-fledged one in 1978 after his stellar rookie season.

It's also interesting to see who's *not* on the list (off the top of my head): Mantle, Aaron, Morgan (finished 2d to another 2B!), Schmidt, A-Rod, Bonds, and most of the best pitchers of the last 75 years.

because she thought Ichiro was the coolest thing that had happened in forever.

And she was right. Everything Ichiro did was fun and cool and it's hard to find a person around (outside of Ray) who didn't love Ichiro, whether they were a baseball fan or not (I've told this story before, but my brother was watching the baseball classic (he doesn't care for baseball) and even though Ichiro was already an established star, he didn't know that, and commented to me how great this Ichiro guy is going to be and he could probably play in the majors)

I had no idea Al Bumbry once hit three triples in one game.

It's also interesting to see who's *not* on the list (off the top of my head): Mantle, Aaron, Morgan (finished 2d to another 2B!), Schmidt, A-Rod, Bonds, and most of the best pitchers of the last 75 years.

Gil McDougald was a much better player than Mantle in 1951.

Wally Moon was much better than Aaron in 1954.

Morgan was a little better than Lefebvre in 1965. Either would have been a fine choice.

Mike Schmidt hit below .200, and had less WAR than all but one of the 9 guys who got votes in 1974.

Rod had negative WAR in 48 games in 1995.

Is Ken Hubbs (of all people) the only RoY to lead the league in Ks? (I assume he's near the bottom on this list.)

Joe Charboneau at 112 is ridiculous.

Hubbs is 151, second to last.

Is Ken Hubbs (of all people) the only RoY to lead the league in Ks?

Ron Kittle did.

edit: Dick Allen too.

And Kris Bryant. And Aaron Judge.

Since the article was nice enough to list the winner and runner up, I decided to see if there was any year that the winner and runner up are both hofers. As of right now I'm at about 40 on the list and the closest is Fred Lynn/Jim Rice, next closest is obviously way to early to call, but Acuna and Soto. (I'm writing this out as I go so that I can just type and not have to remember if I find more) 51 Correa/Lindor(still too soon to call)

Ichiro/Sabathia is a pretty good combination. Roy Oswalt fell off the ballot his first year, but Ichiro/Sabathia and Pujols/Oswalt are probably the best sets of top two rookies in one year between leagues.

Speaking of which, Ron Kittle at 68 is far more ridiculous than Charboneau.

Ichiro/Sabathia is a pretty good combination. Roy Oswalt fell off the ballot his first year, but Ichiro/Sabathia and Pujols/Oswalt are probably the best sets of top two rookies in one year between leagues.

I pretty much started thinking about it because of Pujols/Oswalt, but I fully missed on Ichiro/Sabathia. I of course immediately started looking to see where Pujols was on this list, started to think "well that has to be wrong" looked at each ahead of him and couldn't come up with a reason to put Albert ahead, but I did see "he had a great 2nd."

That Listich-over-Lofton vote still gnaws at me.

me too--Listach started like a house afire and the race was considered decided at the break; then he more or less collapsed and Lofton came on, but I think no one in the BBWAA was paying attention

Eddie Murray didn't get a prospective 1977 rookie card, but he gets a full-fledged one in 1978 after his stellar rookie season.

in one of the abstracts, Bill James made fun of the players' vote that year for Mitchell Page, but in fact Page had a much better year 6.1 to 3,2 WAR

@10: I wasn't judging the voters, just noting that lots of great players didn't necessarily light up the league as rookies.

@10: I wasn't judging the voters, just noting that lots of great players didn't necessarily light up the league as rookies.

Which is one of the things people sometimes argue about the ROY. Should it be based upon what they actually did or should it be what they actually did showing what they are going to do going forward? It's why some people want age limits or to remove people from consideration who might have been more developed because they played in Japan or somewhere else. I think it's who had the best year, but even though I'm usually the first guy who argues playing time matters, due to the fact that many rookies don't come up early in the season or are benched early in the season until they prove themselves, that war isn't going to be the best gauge. WAA is probably better, and in some respects ignoring playing time matters (note this goes contrary to my vote during Ryan Howards roy candidacy where I at the time argued Taveras should win because he played all season long... I've changed my mind on that argument)

Which is one of the things people sometimes argue about the ROY. Should it be based upon what they actually did or should it be what they actually did showing what they are going to do going forward?

re: my comment in #18--I assume that's what the voters were looking at--Murray was 21, Page was 26 a week after the season ended--it wasn't too much of a stretch to assume Murray would have a better career

Which is one of the things people sometimes argue about the ROY. Should it be based upon what they actually did or should it be what they actually did showing what they are going to do going forward?

It should be based on what they did. I can see giving it to the younger guy as a tiebreaker, but other than that it should just go to the best first-year guy.

It should be based on what they did. I can see giving it to the younger guy as a tiebreaker, but other than that it should just go to the best first-year guy.

Most people feel that way, not trying to say it's a major argument people are having, but there is a few who think that way. It mostly came up with Ichiro and other Japanese players as being 'against' the spirit of the award (same thing happened to a lesser degree with NHL and Russians so the NHL did codify an age limit as far as I remember) Even though many of the original recipients of the ROY were Jackie Robinson age and older having been NeL stars

Looks like there's only been 3 seasons so far where both ROY's went on to make the HOF:

1956 - Frank Robinson, Luis Aparicio
1967 - Tom Seaver, Rod Carew
1977 - Andre Dawson, Eddie Murray

But wait! 2001 (Pujols, Ichiro) will make it four, and 2012 (Harper, Trout) has a good shot as well. A future VC could also elect Dick Allen and put 1964 on the list (Oliva is already in).

Looks like there's only been 3 seasons so far where both ROY's ended up in the HOF:

1956 - Frank Robinson, Luis Aparicio
1967 - Tom Seaver, Rod Carew
1977 - Andre Dawson, Eddie Murray

However, 2001 (Pujols, Ichiro) will make it four, and 2012 (Harper, Trout) has a good shot as well. A future VC could also elect Dick Allen and put 1964 on the list (Oliva is already in).

Any list that includes players who might have been in, if not for roid taint? (which is why I also tried to include hall of merit choices, since the goal of this exercise is superficially to at least look at guys who ended up having great careers.

the ROY winner (non-pitcher) with the fewest lifetime games played was Joe Charboneau (201 G); for pitchers, of course, it's Fidrych (58)

#25 - The only potential HOF ROY winner that's being snubbed for 'roids is McGwire (and the other 1987 ROY was Benito Santiago, so not close to joining the list). Canseco and Braun also won ROY's, but I think they'd both fall short of election even without the PED taint.

Rose was also a ROY winner/HOF snub, but the AL winner in 1963 was some guy named Gary Peters.

#27 Thanks for that.

Way too early to tell, obviously, but 2018's Ohtani/Acuna duo is a fun one to keep an eye on for potential future HOFers.

but the AL winner in 1963 was some guy named Gary Peters.

wow--that makes me feel old (which I am) "some guy named Gary Peters"???

Peters was a very good pitcher for several years, and (along with Earl Wilson) the best hitting pitcher in the AL for several years

yeah, I remember Gary Peters pretty well.

he's 85 years young, btw

had cups of coffee in 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962

then:
19-8, 2.33 (led AL in ERA)
20-8, 2.50 (led AL in W)
10-12, 3.62
12-10, 1.98 (led AL in ERA again)
16-11, 2.28

fell off after that, but was a combined 30-22 with BOS in 1970-71

124 career W, 106 ERA+
one of the 9 pitchers on the White Sox All-20th Century Team
once batted 6th in a game
70 career OPS+, including 104 in that rookie season. that was better than 5 of CHW's 8 starting hitters that year

Willie Mays was so good that even paired with a non HOF (though still very good) partner, his ROY class of 1951 takes the top spot (by WAR). Hell, only 3 other ROY duos beat Mays by himself (and 2 of them not by much!).

Here's all the ROY classes with 100 combined WAR. Trout/Harper have a shot at cracking the top 3!

1) 1951 (196.7) - Willie Mays (156.1), Gil McDougald (40.6)
2) 1967 (191.1) - Tom Seaver (109.9), Rod Carew (81.2)
3) 1956 (163.1) - Frank Robinson (107.2), Luis Aparicio (55.9)
4) 2001 (161.6) - Albert Pujols (101.6), Ichiro Suzuki (60.0)
5) 1977 (133.5) - Eddie Murray (68.7), Andre Dawson (64.8)
6) 2012 (124.9) - Mike Trout (82.4), Bryce Harper (42.5)
7) 1991 (124.5) - Jeff Bagwell (79.9), Chuck Knoblauch (44.6)
8) 1982 (121.6) - Cal Ripken Jr (95.9), Steve Sax (25.7)
9) 2006 (115.6) - Justin Verlander (77.6), Hanley Ramirez (38.0)
10) 1997 (114.4) - Scott Rolen (70.1), Nomar Garciaparra (44.3)
11) 1963 (108.3) - Pete Rose (79.6), Gary Peters (28.7)
12) 1972 (107.9) - Carlton Fisk (68.5), John Matlack (39.4)
13) 1964 (101.7) - Dick Allen (58.7), Tony Oliva (43.0)
14) 1993 (100.0) - Mike Piazza (59.5), Tim Salmon (40.5)

Barely missed: Dustin Pedroia/Ryan Braun (2007), Lou Whitaker/Bob Horner (1978), Johnny Bench/Stan Bahnsen (1968), Willie McCovey/Bob Allison (1959)

Due to a tie in the voting, 2 ROY classes even had 3 members - 1976 and 1979 - yet neither came close to making this list, as the best career from any of those 6 players was Rick Sutcliffe (33.9 WAR).

Molitor and Trammell - not Whitaker, alas - are on the same 1978 Topps rookie card along with U.L. Washington and Mickey Klutts.

Ahem. U L Washington.

ahem, I listed the names as they appear on the card

if we have a thread on U L Washington's toothpicks, I'll call him that

That Listich-over-Lofton vote still gnaws at me

I'm still pissed at Marty Cordova for stealing Garret Anderson's award.

cmon

you can't give out a ROY for how you think they are GONNA do. the 2 cubs guys who won the 1989 award looked great but, hey, it didn't last real too long for either one. youneverknow. especially because guys get hurt. or have other problems (see tatis, jr and yes i know he wasn't ROY)

and there needs to be a games played/IP minimum too

That would be Jerome Walton (the winner) and Dwight Smith. But the argument is to not give the award to Walton (considered a mediocre prospect) or especially Smith (already 25) when everybody knows the most talented NL rookie that year was Gregg Jeffries. :-)

EDIT: And that the "embarrassment" that we (including me) all remember about that year is Walton/Smith when Ken Griffey Jr finished 3rd to two relievers. Griffey had all the hype in the world and played 127 games.

Along the lines of my strikeouts question (thanks ... I might better ask is Ken Hubbs the worst-hitter to ever lead the league in Ks?) I bring you -- which rookie had the most black/gray ink in their rookie year? (I have no idea what the answer is.)

And that the "embarrassment" that we (including me) all remember about that year is Walton/Smith when Ken Griffey Jr finished 3rd to two relievers.

One reliever. Gordon was a starter then.

Along the lines of my strikeouts question (thanks ... I might better ask is Ken Hubbs the worst-hitter to ever lead the league in Ks?) I bring you -- which rookie had the most black/gray ink in their rookie year? (I have no idea what the answer is.)

My initial guess is Ichiro(not sure which stats count as black ink though, but pa, ab, hits, sb, batting average all black ink and runs, total bases, triples, and times on base all making top ten)
Trout gets average, obp, slg, runs(led), hits, total bases, triples, stolen bases(led),times on base

And that the "embarrassment" that we (including me) all remember about that year is Walton/Smith when Ken Griffey Jr finished 3rd to two relievers.

Surprisingly all three had 3.3 bWar that year. (Kevin Brown had 3.6 and was 6th in voting)

Surprisingly all three had 3.3 bWar that year. (Kevin Brown had 3.6 and was 6th in voting)

The BBWAA was just letting Brown know what to expect.

Judge as a rookie led the league in HR, runs, and walks, and was top 10 (top 5, actually) in OBP, SLG, total bases, and rbi.

Rookie Tony Oliva led the league in BA, hits, runs, doubles, and total bases, and was top 10 in SLG, games played, AB, PA, triples, HR, and rbi.

Should it be based upon what they actually did or should it be what they actually did showing what they are going to do going forward? It's why some people want age limits or to remove people from consideration who might have been more developed because they played in Japan or somewhere else.

IIRC, the language in the directive to the voters is the "most impressive" rookie season. It's deliberately up to the voter to decide what that means and I think that's fine. I think I remember this from the one writer who didn't vote for Ichiro that year, saying that coming from another established professional league wasn't the most impressive.

yeah, I remember Gary Peters pretty well.

I'm too young to remember Peters' playing days -- he retired before I was born -- but I have enjoyed his baseball stylings in OOTP well enough to read up on him. He was pretty much the ace of those early 60s White Sox teams that were actually pretty good. Crashed and burned after he turned 30, sadly.

you can't give out a ROY for how you think they are GONNA do.

While I agree, it has happened. Todd Hollandsworth won in 1996 over the vastly superior Edgar Renteria and FP Santangelo basically because the Dodgers were viewed as prospect magicians in the early-mid 90s and people thought he would carry on the tradition of Piazza, Karros, and Mondesi. He . . . did not.

Also, the fact that the Dodgers brought up three legit RoYs (and one kinda fake one) in consecutive seasons without managing to win anything in the aftermath is truly a testament to what a ####### basket case that team was in the post-Hershiser era.

Actually, depending on whether you believe B-R (hates his defense) or Fangraphs (only dislikes it), Karros didn't really follow through on his promise, either. But he did lead NL rookies in HR & RBI in his rookie year, which was a big deal in 1992.

. . . oh god, that was the year they gave the MVP to Dennis Eckersley. Ugh.

Fidrych only 16th? He was on the cover of the Rolling Stone, dammit! (Also he had 24 complete games in 1976; only Rick Langford in 1980 has surpassed that since.)

The Bird (Fidrych) also didn't make his first start until May 15, in the Tigers' 24th game (just two brief mopups in blowouts before that).

24 CG in 29 starts, and he pitched into the 8th inning two other times.

one game, he went the distance in a 10-inning loss as a 7-3 loser, allowing 12 hits and 2 walks.

his ERA was under 2.00 for all of July and until that Aug. 21 start above.

Backup catcher Bruce Kimm started all 29 of The Bird's starts - starting only 23 other games all season behind HOMer Bill Freehan and along with the late John Wockenfuss.

from the SABR bio (yes, Kimm got one !)

“Every time I catch, we draw 50,000 people,” is how the catcher explained, tongue firmly in cheek, the record-breaking crowds in Detroit to Sports Illustrated.

"The next year, 1977, Kimm started the season as a backup, and didn’t catch Fidrych’s first two starts. After the Bird’s two early losses, Kimm caught the pitcher’s next six starts. Fidrych won all six. After two more losses, however, Fidrych confessed to having a “dead arm,” later diagnosed as a torn rotator cuff, and he was placed on the disabled list. With the Bird grounded, and Kimm hitting only .080, the catcher was optioned to Rochester, the Baltimore Orioles’ AAA affiliate in the International League."

One reliever. Gordon was a starter then.

Well, 33 relief then 16 starts. He went 10-2 with 1 save in 66 innings as a reliever; 7-7 in 97 starter innings. Take your pick. Six times he gave up the lead in relief, winning 5 of those games. Nice work if you can get it.

It's a good list my only big disagreement is were Gooden and Fernando are. If hype and performance is taken into consideration I would have a hard time with number 2 between Gooden and Ichiro. Fernando would be 5th (or 6th after Gooden gets to 2/3), there was so much hype and a decent bit of performance there.

I have a lot of minor quibbles but those two were the ones that NEED to be higher, Nomo maybe needs much higher also.

I mean as a Cub fan my list of hype would have Kerry Wood higher but understand that others may not have been as hyped as me.