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Baseball Primer Newsblog — The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand Tuesday, September 13, 2022Rawlings to award Gold Gloves to utility players starting this season
RoyalsRetro (AG#1F)
Posted: September 13, 2022 at 10:21 AM | 43 comment(s)
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1. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 13, 2022 at 10:53 AM (#6095935)When was this requirement put in? Certainly wasn't a thing in '99.
They used to when it was done with paper ballots (not that long ago). Can't imagine they need that much time now. See below quote (from 2013):
Javy Baez. Zobrist back in the day? Was Marwin Gonzales ever an elite defender? Chris Taylor?
I'm guessing in 2013, when they began basing it on a metric combined with a manager vote.
yes, Palmeiro only had 246 innings IN THE FIELD that year. in retrospect, they should have had a rule that no one with fewer than xxx innings is eligible - regardless of their vote totals.
Palmeiro started 151 and 158 games at first base while winning the 1997 and 1998 Gold Gloves, then had only 28 starts in 1999 when he and Lee Stevens flipped DH and 1B roles (perhaps because Palmeiro was 34, but Stevens was 31. and the Rangers apparently were so impressed that they traded Stevens to the Expos in the offseason in a 3-way deal that included Toronto and brought David Segui back to the Rangers. But Palmeiro got more 1B time than did Segui, who was traded to Cleveland in mid-2000.
Am trying to recall how much access people had to in-season fielding statistics in 1999, somewhat early days of the internet. but.... yeah, a beat writer surely had such access so I can't give them a pass.
No need. Voting was done exclusively by managers and coaches, only for players in their respective leagues, and not for players on their own teams.
If that's correct, then Rutschman barely qualifies ... only 68 starts in 140 games but 75 appearances at C.
Utility & elite: Pokey Reese maybe. He won GG as a 2B in 1999-2000. In 2001, he split time between 2B (>600 innings) and SS (>400) ... but TZ considered him just average that year. His last season in 2004 in Boston, he was split-time but not for enough innings to qualify but, by TZ and DRS, that season practically redefines defensive excellence. (+21 TZ, +15 DRS in <700 innings.
Miguel Cairo might have deserved a GG in his younger days at 2B, became a solid glove utility guy later, not sure he qualifies as elite.
Grich won his first GG at 24 at 2B but the year before that he 600 at SS, nearly 400 at 2B, 99 at 1B and a bit of 3B. In 1977, his first with the Angels, he played 460 at SS and 1240 at 2B but apparently big name FAs don't get GGs. :-) He floated around 1B, 2B, 3B towards the end of his career.
Still, fair point that if you're that good of a glove, the team will usually stick you in one spot and live with the bat. The genuine glove-first utility guy might well not get enough PT to qualify -- 713 innings (not necessarily starts) is nearly 80 full games so about 350 PA through the first 141 games so a 400+ PA season to qualify. Maybe they will relax those requirements for utility guys. In the end, this award will probably end up going mainly to guys just breaking in -- maybe before their teams realize how bad the bat is -- old elite defenders on their way out (the Omar Vizquel Award ... maybe not) or the Muncy/Taylor/Hernandez/Zobrist/DeRosa types because they're the only ones eligible. (Some of those guys were/are perfectly solid defenders but not exactly Belanger.)
Manny Machado at one point would have qualified, even though nobody would have called him a "utility player".
Like DJ LeMahieu nowadays moving among 1B, 2B, and 3B.
Rey Sanchez had a few seasons.
yes, and an excellent point. managers and coaches would have had less access to in-season fielding stats - and less interest in the professionalism of attempting to find them. In fact, I am skeptical that many of them were embarrassed when the facts came out.
that was Palmeiro, who was en route to a 47-148-.324 season in '99, his best in a series of big years.
"ok, let's see - who at second base last year?"
more than 35 years ago, Topps had writers vote for the All-Rookie teams. if all of your selections won, you got a prize. my boss was now a desk man, but he wanted that prize and he knew I was a baseball junkie.
so I filled it out, not trying to choose the best players but the most likely winners.
well, I got 'em all right. Topps sent my boss a bunch of boxes of cards, etc.
Boss: "Hey, good job on that contest - my son is really enjoying the prizes!"
I got none of them - and his son was my age.
:(
We'll see how this actually plays out, but I would prefer to see this award go to the "most versatile defender" rather than "best defensive player who spent some time at a second position." I would rather recognize the Ben Zobrist/Tony Philips types than someone like 2016 Manny Machado, an excellent defensive 3B who was asked to fill in at SS for a while and did well there too.
Brandon Inge had a year where he played C, 3B, and CF, and was pretty good at all of them.
My Lou Klimchock was Reno Bertoia.
So better results than Josh Hader?
DING! DING! DING! we have a winner. I have no issue with it, if there is a worthy candidate, but just claiming there is one every year going forward can end up being on par with Palmiero level bad decision for this award. There is a reason that when you have a good utility player who can field multiple positions well, that they make the news. Whitey Herzog declaring that Jose Oquendo was the true MVP for the Cardinals (yes it was an overstatement for effect) etc. Ben Zobrist doing what he did etc. The number of good utility players annually is fairly small (it's increasing though) and even in that subset not many are truly excellent/gold glove quality at multiple positions, many are passable at a few, and good at a few.
If Machado is going to be excluded from winning at 3B or SS during a season like that, I have no problem with him winning the utility player award.
Are those who play multiple outfield positions going to be eligible? More info needed here.
Yep, I agree. I would also lump corner outfield into it's own position as far as the utility position is concerned (heck I would lump it even for the regular gloves, centerfield is different, corner is only differentiated by arm strength)
Does he have 6 assists because teams thought his arm sucked, and it doesn't? That kind of stuff isn't necessarily very projectible from SSS.
teams are aware he has close to zero experience in the OF in the minors, so they test him. in this case, they chose poorly.
if he does get his bat to MLB level, and he plays much OF in the future, teams won't run on him - so he'll rarely get an assist.
does that mean his OF defense "declined?" not at all.
Are those who play multiple outfield positions going to be eligible? More info needed here.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I realize that the more conditions you add, the more watered-down the award will be, but I would like to see something like:
* Played at least [x games/innings] at three or more different positions.
* Played at least [y games/innings] in two or more "position groups," which could be simply (i) catcher, (ii) infield, (iii) outfield; or could be broken down further into corner infield/middle infield, center field/corner outfield.
* Played competently at all positions and played excellently at (at least) one of them.
Others will surely disagree, but in this era of short benches, I wouldn't consider someone who played LF/CF/RF (but nowhere else) to be a "utility player," or someone who played only 2B/SS or only SS/3B. Those don't require significantly different defensive skills but are just different degrees of difficulty. In theory, a great SS should be able to handle 2B or 3B and a great CF should be able to handle LF or RF, but the best SS may struggle at LF and the best CF may struggle at 2B, while both of them would likely struggle at catcher. The value of a "utility player" is his versatility.
Does he have 6 assists because teams thought his arm sucked, and it doesn't? That kind of stuff isn't necessarily very projectible from SSS.
You're a Yankees fan. You've seen those assists. That's what I'm going on, more than just the numbers.
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teams are aware he has close to zero experience in the OF in the minors, so they test him. in this case, they chose poorly.
if he does get his bat to MLB level, and he plays much OF in the future, teams won't run on him - so he'll rarely get an assist.
does that mean his OF defense "declined?" not at all.
True, true, and true. Which in part is why defensive metrics in the outfield are extremely imprecise. But what I've seen from Cabrera is a strong and very accurate arm along with a series of highlight reel catches, all the more impressive because it's been in only 18 games in a position he hadn't played before. Small sample size, yes, but that criticism addresses the numbers, not the underlying skill sets.
With all that this implies for limited sample sizes.
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