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Monday, May 22, 2023

Red Sox: Kenley Jansen calls out MLB for ‘ruining careers’ with pitch clock

Jansen recently made a guest appearance on Audacy’s “Baseball Isn’t Boring” podcast and gave his two cents on how the pitch clock rule has thrown its own curveball at pitchers, who are now expected to quickly adjust to a faster game tempo.

Jansen said:

“You’re learning and adjusting right now, especially when you come out there and you’re not throwing strikes. It can get a little challenging. What would you do if there’s no pitch clock there? You learn how to slow down the game, reset your mind, go back out there and attack the zone. That’s the one thing for me, I’m learning how to adjust to that.”

Jansen speaks about his personal experiences as a closer and how he used to take time to reset in later innings to prevent the game from “speeding up” on him.

Calibrating one’s pitches to the new pitch clock rules isn’t just a mental change, either. It can take a physical toll on pitchers if they’re not pacing themselves correctly.

“People are getting worn out… You’re playing with somebody’s career and basically might blow out. I’m not criticizing, I’m speaking the reality.”

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: May 22, 2023 at 10:04 PM | 58 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: kenley jansen, pitch clock

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1. Cooper Nielson Posted: May 22, 2023 at 10:57 PM (#6129640)

The counterpoint is that allowing relief pitchers unlimited time to "slow the game down" was ruining baseball.

2. The Honorable Ardo Posted: May 22, 2023 at 11:31 PM (#6129661)

Baseball was meant to be played for exercise, at a brisk pace. Jansen is merely displaying his ignorance of history.

3. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 23, 2023 at 12:01 AM (#6129673)

Yes, Kenley, the pitch clock makes you work as you would otherwise prefer not to. What you seem to misunderstand is that that’s exactly what it’s there to do, and you’re exactly the reason why it’s there.

4. Howie Menckel Posted: May 23, 2023 at 12:21 AM (#6129677)

perhaps he can fund a new baseball league where every player can dick around as long as they want.

they'll all enjoy the 4+ hour games.

now, they won't enjoy the half-empty stands (at best) or the meager TV contracts (at best) that lead to massive reductions in salaries - but who cares? the important thing is that Kenley Jansen gets to do whatever he wants, as long as it takes.

wait, is Kenley objecting to that result? is he wondering why the baseball fans and networks who pay his salary don't bow to his whims?

again, my objection is not even to him preferring different rules.

it's his pitiful lack of self-awareness of why he makes so much money.

I cannot overstate how much I enjoy this greatly improved product in 2023.

I watch more baseball now. hell, I don't even DVR it as often, because the real-time pace is not that far off from my preference.

for the last 5 years or more? hell no, I never watched a commercial. you guys were so pitifully slothful that I let myself get 15-20 minutes behind - and caught up in less than half that time.

lather, rinse, and repeat.

5. base ball chick Posted: May 23, 2023 at 12:40 AM (#6129683)

yesterday the astros game was 2 hrs 3 minutes. tonight's 12-2 game was 2 hrs 40 min. they would both have been at least 45 minutes olnger last year and B O R I N G

kenley can just learn himself to deal with the pitch clock. and the umps need to kick the batters gaming the system

6. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: May 23, 2023 at 12:52 AM (#6129685)

Kenley doesn't seem to realise that there is no fan anywhere who wants to watch a reliever take 40+ seconds to pitch the baseball. Just throw the d*mn ball Kenley, it really is that simple.

7. MHS Posted: May 23, 2023 at 07:51 AM (#6129694)

Kenley doesn't seem to realise that there is no fan anywhere who wants to watch a reliever take 40+ seconds to pitch the baseball. Just throw the d*mn ball Kenley, it really is that simple.

realize has nothing to do with it. he doesn't care.

8. sanny manguillen Posted: May 23, 2023 at 08:46 AM (#6129702)

It seems likely to me that there will be pitchers who improve by working more quickly. Has anyone tried to identify any of these guys yet?

9. jmurph Posted: May 23, 2023 at 10:07 AM (#6129711)

I think it's totally fair that pitchers are upset and will whine about it, I don't really begrudge them that. But hopefully the league continues to ignore them and does what's best for the game.

10. DL from MN Posted: May 23, 2023 at 10:13 AM (#6129712)

It seems likely to me that there will be pitchers who improve by working more quickly.

I think it's more that some pitchers are affected less by it than others and will look good in comparison.

11. DL from MN Posted: May 23, 2023 at 10:14 AM (#6129714)

As far as the physical toll on pitchers, they always have the option to not throw max effort every pitch. Throwing maximum effort and a fast pace might lead to more injuries. The obvious solution is to not throw maximum effort on every pitch. I would prefer that to pitchers taking a nap between pitches to recover.

12. jmurph Posted: May 23, 2023 at 10:16 AM (#6129715)

Relievers were selected for their ability to throw max effort strikes several days per week.

13. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: May 23, 2023 at 10:34 AM (#6129717)

"Fans call out relief pitchers for 'ruining baseball games' with pre-pitch routines."

14. Cris E Posted: May 23, 2023 at 10:37 AM (#6129720)

There are methodical, ritualistic, boring batters who are complaining too, but I gotta warm them all that this has been pushed down into the minors for a while now and the kids will do what it takes to get a shot at Jensen's job. Kenley can adjust or be an individual, but the market will speak the next time he wants to sign a contract.

15. SoSH U at work Posted: May 23, 2023 at 10:38 AM (#6129721)

I think it's more that some pitchers are affected less by it than others and will look good in comparison.

Overall sure, but I suspect there are pitchers that actually benefit from working quicker. I guess it's possible Buehrle could have gotten more out of his ability than he did, but it's damn hard to imagine.

16. Itchy Row Posted: May 23, 2023 at 10:45 AM (#6129722)

MLB ruined my career long ago by insisting I have some baseball talent if I wanted to play. #######.

17. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 23, 2023 at 10:49 AM (#6129723)

The whining is a feature, not a bug.

18. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 23, 2023 at 10:49 AM (#6129724)

I think it's totally fair that pitchers are upset and will whine about it, I don't really begrudge them that.

I begrudge you not begrudging them that.

19. danup Posted: May 23, 2023 at 11:19 AM (#6129727)

Relief pitchers are lucky we haven't figured out a way to eradicate them entirely yet and should enjoy this period while it lasts.

20. It's Spelled With a CFBF, But Not Where You Think Posted: May 23, 2023 at 12:19 PM (#6129744)

I was going to mention that Jansen was having a dominant season in spite of his complaints, but then I saw he gave up five earned runs in one inning pitched over two appearances, and that kind of tanked his overall numbers. Got to love the small sample sizes of relief pitchers combined with the small sample sizes of late May.

21. Robbo Posted: May 23, 2023 at 12:22 PM (#6129746)

If I recall, a huge percentage of active major leaguers have already played in the minors with a pitch clock in the minors before this year.

22. KronicFatigue Posted: May 23, 2023 at 12:27 PM (#6129747)

If I squint, I can almost see the point that an old veteran is having to relearn his job at the end of his career and is at a disadvantage compared to guys who had a clock in the minors.

But as a guy who has enjoyed several games in person this season, including 7 pm starts where I'm home by 10:30, i don't care. I love the clock. Long live the clock

23. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 23, 2023 at 12:46 PM (#6129750)

Overall sure, but I suspect there are pitchers that actually benefit from working quicker. I guess it's possible Buehrle could have gotten more out of his ability than he did, but it's damn hard to imagine.

More like Buehrle would have an advantage over most of the league, and thus his performance would look better in comparison.

24. cookiedabookie Posted: May 23, 2023 at 12:46 PM (#6129751)

I assume this was the argument of some players when they banned the spit ball, or moved the mound back/lower, or got rid of unlimited foul balls, etc.

25. SoSH U at work Posted: May 23, 2023 at 12:58 PM (#6129756)

More like Buehrle would have an advantage over most of the league, and thus his performance would look better in comparison.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Mark Buehrle, or Derek Lowe, and pitchers like them (guys who aren't throwing max velocity on every offering, but relying on movement and location), may very perform better at the more rapid rate they worked at than they would have had they been more deliberate. If not, they were cheating themselves, weren't they?

26. Darren

Posted: May 23, 2023 at 01:19 PM (#6129763)

I'm surprised too hear this from Jansen. In the off-season he talked about taking the pitch clock as a challenge and wanting to show proof he could work quickly. After he recently got faked into a couple of balls and had a terrible outing, although he seemed annoyed, he said it was good responsibility to adapt to the rules and that he wouldn't let it happen again. Maybe good frustrations just boiled over with his most recent outing, which was shaky.

27. John Northey Posted: May 23, 2023 at 01:53 PM (#6129766)

With the Jays Kikuchi has shown a big improvement over last year - last year he was painful to watch, slowing down when things went wrong to a near standstill. He said himself that the increased pace has forced him to just get ball, throw ball. Remove the debate, just do his job. Right now he has a 102 ERA+, he never has had a 100 ERA+ at the end of a season. EVER. Just once in the 90's (his All-Star year). So yeah, for some guys the forced speed helps. I suspect we'll find more as time goes by.

Other things that have helped - Bassitt, he of the 8 different pitches, loves the pitch com on his belt. Some headaches game one as he adjusted, but since 1.83 ERA over 9 starts. He also uses the clock well. He'll let it run out sometimes to reset, knowing he can throw strikes so giving the batter a ball to let him get better focus is worth it sometimes. He also calls time or has something set up with the catcher so he gets a break if it is too close to 0 and needs the time with 2 or 3 balls on the batter.

Basically it is all time-management. Clearly Jansen hasn't figured that part out yet. I remember in spring Max Scherzer was talking about how much he enjoyed the clock and playing with it. Good pitchers work with what they have, bad ones complain.

28. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: May 23, 2023 at 01:57 PM (#6129767)

Sacrificing a few careers to save the game seems like a fair trade. They've done good, MLB has. If they abandon the clock...good bye, baseball.

29. Karl from NY Posted: May 23, 2023 at 03:23 PM (#6129776)

It seems likely to me that there will be pitchers who improve by working more quickly. Has anyone tried to identify any of these guys yet?

Not necessarily. It's possible that every pitcher gets worse by working quickly - by way of the hitters perfoming better when they don't have to maintain their heightened reactive alertness so long while waiting for the pitch.

30. Rally Posted: May 23, 2023 at 03:30 PM (#6129777)

Right now he has a 102 ERA+, he never has had a 100 ERA+ at the end of a season. EVER. Just once in the 90's (his All-Star year). So yeah, for some guys the forced speed helps. I suspect we'll find more as time goes by.

Too early to say if he’s actually better. One bad start could knock his ERA+ down to his career level, 84. And he’s facing the ####### Rays tomorrow. But if he’s still a bad pitcher, at least a strike throwing gopher baller is more watchable than a gopherballer who first walks the bases loaded.

31. Ron J Posted: May 23, 2023 at 04:09 PM (#6129781)

#8 Jim Kaat explicitly said that working fast was a key to his longevity. He was notorious for quick pitching batters, but he always worked fast.

32. The Duke Posted: May 23, 2023 at 04:34 PM (#6129786)

Kitty Kaat

33. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: May 23, 2023 at 04:37 PM (#6129787)

"My fastball turns into a pumpkin after two hours" was the Kaat quote I heard, I'm pretty sure.

34. Stevey Posted: May 23, 2023 at 04:54 PM (#6129790)

As far as the physical toll on pitchers, they always have the option to not throw max effort every pitch.

And watch hitters crush the ball into the seats, ending the careers of those pitchers.

Throwing maximum effort and a fast pace might lead to more injuries.

It already has.

I get it, you guys here love baseball so much that you want to get home a half an hour earlier to do, well whatever it is you seem to prefer more than baseball. But it is already having a serious consequence on pitchers' elbows and shoulders.

Baseball was meant to be played for exercise, at a brisk pace.

This will require a cite, for as you, someone not ignorant of history surely knows, baseball started out without strikes and balls, and the batter was allowed to wait as long as he wanted for a pitch he deemed to his liking.

35. Biscuit_pants Posted: May 23, 2023 at 05:22 PM (#6129794)

I get it, you guys here love baseball so much that you want to get home a half an hour earlier to do, well whatever it is you seem to prefer more than baseball.

I don't "prefer" to be working and getting up early but it is a necessity. My kids would probably prefer to watch the game and get to bed late and sleep in the next day but I prefer them to get enough sleep and be better students.

It is a trade-off, one that has led to me not watching baseball because I am someone that is up before 6 am, and am not one that can function on 4 hours of sleep a night for the entire season.

36. jingoist Posted: May 23, 2023 at 05:45 PM (#6129797)

I say, bring back the 8:05 PM start times. With traffic in most cities, you can’t get to a game by 6:30 or 7 PM.
Summer is almost here; start the games after the sun goes down.
Game will be over by 10:30; you’ll be in bed by 11:30.

37. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: May 23, 2023 at 06:29 PM (#6129802)

But it is already having a serious consequence on pitchers' elbows and shoulders.

This requires a cite. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I have not seen any documentation that the pitch clock is causing more injuries.

I also would propose that if the pitch clock is leading to more strain, the better way to alleviate that strain is for pitchers to throw fewer pitches at maximum effort, not to remove the pitch clock. If that means every pitcher is giving up homeruns, they will all be relatively as effective as they were before and no careers will be ended.

38. SoSH U at work Posted: May 23, 2023 at 06:32 PM (#6129803)

I also would propose that if the pitch clock is leading to more strain, the better way to alleviate that strain is for pitchers to throw fewer pitches at maximum effort, not to remove the pitch clock. If that means every pitcher is giving up homeruns, they will all be relatively as effective as they were before and no careers will be ended.

Also, if MLB has to do something that tilts the scales toward better pitcher health by making getting outs easier, that's fine. But the pitch clock stays.

39. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: May 23, 2023 at 06:59 PM (#6129807)

Also, if MLB has to do something that tilts the scales toward better pitcher health by making getting outs easier, that's fine. But the pitch clock stays.

I'm fine with that as well.

40. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: May 23, 2023 at 07:07 PM (#6129810)

I say, bring back the 8:05 PM start times. With traffic in most cities, you can’t get to a game by 6:30 or 7 PM.

I'd say split the difference and go with 7:30, game is over by 10:00. Most people can get home from the park by 11:00. Quick shower, brush teeth, whatever, in bed before 11:30 easy. Even an early riser like me, 5:30am, gets a solid 6 hours and that's more then enough if only once or twice a week.

41. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: May 23, 2023 at 07:09 PM (#6129811)

The difference between 2.5 hour games and 3.5 hour games is not the difference between 2.5 hours of baseball and 3 hours of baseball. That extra half hour is entirely, 100 percent, comprised of watching players standing around doing nothing.

It's not that there's something I'd rather be doing with that extra half hour than watching baseball. It's that there are many, many things I'd rather be doing with that extra half hour than watching players stand around, not playing baseball.

42. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: May 23, 2023 at 07:17 PM (#6129814)

Another thing that is interesting.

My son works for Wasserman in NY and was saying for the first time in a few years, the younger staff were actually discussing MLB regularly around the office. Many had been drawn back in initially by the WBC and have been regularly watching more MLB then they had in the past and all had mentioned how the game just moves along now with no boring bits.

43. Walt Davis Posted: May 23, 2023 at 07:36 PM (#6129819)

"The pitch clock is ruining careers."

"And by 'careers' you mean your career."

"Well, yeah."

"Mr. Jansen. Eric Hosmer, recently unemployed first baseman."

"Yes, you have a question?"

"What do you say to all those aging hitters whose careers are ended due to an inability to hit 98-MPH fastballs and super-high spin rates?"

"You can't hit better than Casas over there?"

"Seems not."

"Then I guess I'd say some of them were lucky to make $160 M in their career."

44. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 23, 2023 at 07:59 PM (#6129823)

I get it, you guys here love baseball so much that you want to get home a half an hour earlier to do, well whatever it is you seem to prefer more than baseball

How about if we have 5 minutes between batters, and 30 minutes between half innings. Then you could have 12 hours of baseball every day. Wouldn't that be heaven?

45. sunday silence (again) Posted: May 23, 2023 at 10:23 PM (#6129845)

It's not even really hurting pitchers performance is it? BA is up 5, no wait 4 pts from last year. Slug. is perhaps down .01 from where it was most of the decade about .420, today its .408. HRs same, down a tick.

I think most of us believe the shift rule must account for most/all of the BA bump. So has any of this even hurt pitchers? At least by the stats we see.

46. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: May 23, 2023 at 10:32 PM (#6129847)

I say, bring back the 8:05 PM start times. With traffic in most cities, you can’t get to a game by 6:30 or 7 PM.

Hell, why not go whole hog and go back to WWII, when many night games began at 9:00?** Or go back to the early 50's, when they all began at 8:30?

** Early NBA games were frequently MSG doubleheaders involving 4 different teams, with the second game beginning at 10:00. Of course back then most of the spectators were only a few subway stops from their apartments.

47. Howie Menckel Posted: May 23, 2023 at 10:43 PM (#6129851)

I say, bring back the 8:05 PM start times. With traffic in most cities, you can’t get to a game by 6:30 or 7 PM.

I'm sure there are large segments of a team's fan base that are split among preferring start times of 7 pm, 7:30 pm, or 8 pm, for just some of the various reasons noted here.

so why not do 15-20 of each?
then a fan who only attends games occasionally can check the schedule in the preseason and target preferred dates.

I used to take an older close friend to a midweek afternoon game every year. he loved not feeling intimidated by large crowds, and basking in the sun like a turtle on a log (or going into one of the stadium clubs if it got too hot).

back from my Wrigley Field excursions, I could swear they never played two consecutive games with the same start time - and this began before Wrigley even had lights! sure, we once got stuck with standing-room only because we didn't anticipate a noon start time, but that was on us.

my current ballgame buddy is tiring of the rush-hour drive to Citi Field, and is talking about focusing more on weekend games and matinees.

it could be a little bit of a marketing challenge, but I think it could be pitched as trying to give everyone a chance at the optimal start time.

and for a season ticketholder, the 8 pm games, for example, might usually go to one client just as some weekend giveaway game tickets go to another.

48. villageidiom Posted: May 24, 2023 at 06:40 AM (#6129875)

"The pitch clock is ruining careers."

"And by 'careers' you mean your career."

"Well, yeah."

It's not too often that anyone should tell Walt Davis to shut the #### up, but this is an earned instance. In the podcast when Jansen talks about ruining careers he's specifically referring to STARTERS who now have less time between innings to recover.

49. sanny manguillen Posted: May 24, 2023 at 08:17 AM (#6129879)

go back to WWII, when many night games began at 9:00?

How come they did that? I go back to 8:05 starts in the 1960s. All I can guess is that war factory people did a lot of 8 am to 8 pm shifts?

50. Greg Pope Posted: May 24, 2023 at 08:22 AM (#6129880)

I get it, you guys here love baseball so much that you want to get home a half an hour earlier to do, well whatever it is you seem to prefer more than baseball

Game time has always just been a proxy for pace. They've reduced game time by picking up the pace, which means the same amount of baseball in less time. It's way better.

51. DL from MN Posted: May 24, 2023 at 09:38 AM (#6129887)

One thing I can do if I wish when the game involving my favorite team is over is watch a different baseball game.

52. Nasty Nate Posted: May 24, 2023 at 10:20 AM (#6129890)

I know I'm just piling on at this point, but the idea that preferring shorter games is an indication of not actually liking baseball is one of the most annoying hot takes.

53. Booey Posted: May 24, 2023 at 11:39 AM (#6129901)

#52 - Yep. If they'd made changes that reduced the amount of actual baseball in an attempt to shorten game times - say, making games 7 innings instead of 9 - I'd have been adamantly opposed to that (as I suspect most here would have been). Cutting out most the d!cking around time between pitches isn't doing that.

54. Nasty Nate Posted: May 24, 2023 at 12:00 PM (#6129906)

Yeah, and the dumb runner at 2nd in extras actually does result in less actual baseball, which is one of the reasons I don't like it.

55. sunday silence (again) Posted: May 24, 2023 at 12:26 PM (#6129913)

I know I'm just piling on at this point, but the idea that preferring shorter games is an indication of not actually liking baseball is one of the most annoying hot takes.

would you be less annoyed if I told you it was cutting into my beer intake time?

56. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: May 24, 2023 at 12:57 PM (#6129920)

go back to WWII, when many night games began at 9:00?

How come they did that? I go back to 8:05 starts in the 1960s. All I can guess is that war factory people did a lot of 8 am to 8 pm shifts?

Yeah, probably that. It wasn't the first time that starting times were adjusted for specific groups. Those 1920's 3:00 game times for the Yankees were said to be accommodating Wall Street workers. And it wouldn't surprise me if those early NBA 10:00 games in Madison Square Garden simply reflected the thought that the core crowds for NYC basketball in those days largely consisted of gamblers and other late night aficionados.

The 8:05 starting times of the 60's that you refer to began at varying points in the mid-50's. My first game at Griffith Stadium in 1952 began at 8:30,** but by the midpoint of the decade it was moved up to 8:05. After that, the 7:30 starts came at different points for different teams, and now we're seeing 6:40 games in more than a few cities.

** Games in 1952 averaged 2:25, and public transport to Griffith Stadium was such that you could easily get there within 30 minutes from pretty much anywhere in the DC Metro area, which then was far smaller than it is today. This also meant that the next morning's commute wasn't nearly as much of a PITA as it's been in recent decades.

57. Jobu is silent on the changeup Posted: May 26, 2023 at 10:26 AM (#6130210)

I get it, you guys here love baseball so much that you want to get home a half an hour earlier to do, well whatever it is you seem to prefer more than baseball.

Waiting for Kenley Jansen to do some yoga, drink a soda, have his nails trimmed, read a book and then throw a pitch isn't baseball - nor is it more entertaining than the other things I could be doing.

58. ReggieThomasLives Posted: May 29, 2023 at 05:21 PM (#6130613)

It's not too often that anyone should tell Walt Davis to shut the #### up, but this is an earned instance. In the podcast when Jansen talks about ruining careers he's specifically referring to STARTERS who now have less time between innings to recover.

I don't understand this. If some pitchers handle the faster pace more poorly than others, this is also going to help the careers of those better suited for pitching in more entertaining games. Those games should attract more fans and make the game stronger, ultimately increasing pay and more likely to create additional jobs through expansion.

Baseball isn't and shouldn't be static. 50 years ago you were expected to pitch at a faster pace, and slowly over time pace slowed as intelligent pitchers milked every possible advantage. Now it's time to adjust again and if you can't you just don't deserve to be a MLB pitcher in this era.

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Monday, May 22, 2023

Red Sox: Kenley Jansen calls out MLB for ‘ruining careers’ with pitch clock

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