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Wednesday, January 22, 2020

Red Sox legend Pedro Martinez doesn’t support Astros whistleblower Mike Fiers; ‘You’re just a bad te

Red Sox legend Pedro Martinez doesn’t support Astros whistleblower Mike Fiers, who now pitches for the Athletics.

“If he was to do it when he was playing for the Houston Astros, I would say Mike Fiers has guts,” Martinez said on WEEI on Saturday at Red Sox Winter Weekend. “But to go and do it after you leave the Houston Astros because they don’t have you anymore, that doesn’t show me anything. You’re just a bad teammate.”

Fiers, who pitched for the Astros in 2017, went on record with The Athletic to tell how the Astros used a center field camera to steal signs from opponents in 2017.

“Now everybody is going to know that you have a whistleblower in any other situation, too,” Martinez said. “Whatever happens in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse and Fiers broke the rules. I agree with cleaning up the game. I agree that the fact that the commissioner is taking a hard hand on this. But at the same time, players should not be the one dropping the whistleblower.”

Is there something you’d like to tell the rest of us, Pedro?

 

QLE Posted: January 22, 2020 at 12:32 AM | 134 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mike fiers, pedro martinez, whistleblowers

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   1. Howie Menckel Posted: January 22, 2020 at 12:39 AM (#5918121)
David Ortiz could not be reached for comment.
   2. The Duke Posted: January 22, 2020 at 06:48 AM (#5918137)
Cancel him
   3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:32 AM (#5918155)
“If he was to do it when he was playing for the Houston Astros, I would say Mike Fiers has guts,” Martinez said on WEEI on Saturday at Red Sox Winter Weekend. “But to go and do it after you leave the Houston Astros because they don’t have you anymore, that doesn’t show me anything. You’re just a bad teammate.”

No you idiot. He's a good teammate for stopping his team's prime competitor from cheating. He wasn't an Astro anymore when he blew the whistle. He was an Athletic. It's good for the A's for the Astros to be found out, and punished. If Altuve and Bregman get suspended, it's really good for the A's.
   4. . Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:38 AM (#5918159)
“But to go and do it after you leave the Houston Astros because they don’t have you anymore, that doesn’t show me anything.


You weren't his audience, Pedro.
   5. PreservedFish Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:42 AM (#5918162)
What would have been the ideal way for Fiers to blow the whistle?
   6. . Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:50 AM (#5918172)
He can do it anyway he wants. Employees with firsthand knowledge of widespread corruption in their industry should be encouraged to report it and in the adult world, they are. Sarbanes-Oxley and a number of other laws and regulations address whistleblowing. The sexual harassment laws do, too. Most or all of the state ethics codes for fake lawyers encourage or obligate them to report situations where they know or suspect the ethical rules have been violated. Etc.

There's nothing a former player really even has to add in a situation like this beyond his arrested development opinion of what the situational and distended ethics of the industry might be. Which is essentially irrelevant. Adults have no obligation to respect whatever "code" is purportedly there.

Big time professional sports suck in a lot of ways. Watch the games, root for your team, enjoy it. Don't expect anything beyond that and don't suggest or fool yourself into thinking that the players have anything to offer beyond their athletic skill. Very, very few of them do, and net-net, what they offer is negative.
   7. PreservedFish Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:52 AM (#5918178)
Oh, of course.

I guess I meant, what would have been the most unobjectionable way? Because obviously many inculcated in the Jock Omerta have specific issues about when he should have done it, who exactly he should've told, etc.

I'm not saying that Fiers goofed, just wondering out loud.
   8. Zonk Begs Your Pardon, Mr Blago Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:55 AM (#5918183)
Not surprised to hear something like this from Pedro... but I entirely disagree.

Whistleblowers should be encouraged. People with evidence of malfeasance should illuminate it. People should listen. People should stop playing moral equivalency games that are a steep and slippery slope into nihilism.
   9. jmurph Posted: January 22, 2020 at 10:02 AM (#5918196)
I guess I meant, what would have been the most unobjectionable way? Because obviously many inculcated in the Jock Omerta have specific issues about when he should have done it, who exactly he should've told, etc.

I'm not saying that Fiers goofed, just wondering out loud.

I totally understand their objection, even if I don't agree. They're saying he should have outed them while he was on the Astros. Instead, in their minds, he benefited from the rule-breaking while he was there and, as soon as he was no longer in position to benefit from it, he outed them. It's the same thing Jessica Mendoza said the other day before quickly backtracking (presumably after a call from her bosses).
   10. . Posted: January 22, 2020 at 10:09 AM (#5918202)
I totally understand their objection, even if I don't agree. They're saying he should have outed them while he was on the Astros. Instead, in their minds, he benefited from the rule-breaking while he was there and, as soon as he was no longer in position to benefit from it, he outed them. It's the same thing Jessica Mendoza said the other day before quickly backtracking (presumably after a call from her bosses).


Nah, this is just jock nonsense. Maybe he just felt more comfortable talking after he was away from the cheaters -- as many people in the real world do. Entities engaged in corruption and their corrupt employees are obviously a potentially bigger threat to you. No one says, "Oh, you should have blown the whistle against Enron when you were benefiting from Enron's paychecks, rather than waiting until you'd joined a different company." Or, "How dare you wait until you left Company A to report the sexual harassment you were subjected to at Company A."
   11. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: January 22, 2020 at 10:11 AM (#5918205)
People should stop playing moral equivalency games that are a steep and slippery slope into nihilism.


Go back to Discord with your extremist views, you radical.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 10:48 AM (#5918219)
People should stop playing moral equivalency games that are a steep and slippery slope into nihilism.

If we can't believe in nihilism anymore, what's the point of living?
   13. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 10:53 AM (#5918227)

No one says, "Oh, you should have blown the whistle against Enron when you were benefiting from Enron's paychecks, rather than waiting until you'd joined a different company."

Depends how long they were at Enron benefiting from it. Like if you started looking for a new job once you learned about the malfeasance and reported it once you left, ok. If you stuck around for 3 years, made a few million, then left when a better offer came along I'd consider that problematic.
   14. PreservedFish Posted: January 22, 2020 at 10:55 AM (#5918228)
Depends how long they were at Enron benefiting from it. Like if you started looking for a new job once you learned about the malfeasance and reported it once you left, ok. If you stuck around for 3 years, made a few million, then left when a better offer came along I'd consider that problematic.

Problematic, but still better than nothing. I think this theoretical employee deserves the benefit of the doubt.
   15. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 10:57 AM (#5918232)
If we can't believe in nihilism anymore, what's the point of living?


Camus would say that the purpose of life is whatever keeps you from killing yourself.
   16. flournoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 11:36 AM (#5918264)
Camus would say that the purpose of life is whatever keeps you from killing yourself.


Life is without purpose when constrained by oppressive seat belts.
   17. Astroenteritis Posted: January 22, 2020 at 11:38 AM (#5918265)
Camus would say that the purpose of life is whatever keeps you from killing yourself.


This was very true for a couple of years of my life, that's for sure.
   18. villageidiom Posted: January 22, 2020 at 11:53 AM (#5918276)
Life is without purpose when constrained by oppressive seat belts.
Is driving without wearing a seat belt still a thing? Like, I remember before seat belt laws there were plenty of people who were adamant that they would never wear one, you can't make them do it, it's tyranny, it's more hazardous to wear a seat belt than not to wear one because it could potentially trap you in a burning or submerged vehicle, etc. I encountered dozens of such people even in the mid-1980s. I've not found anyone since then who'd say such things.

Have people finally embraced common sense? Is there Darwinism at play here? Has the cost/benefit swung the other way - with traffic fines, or with the prevalence of vehicles that are set up to annoy you into using a seat belt? Or is it still a thing, and I'm just not encountering any of them?
   19. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 11:58 AM (#5918279)
Camus would say that the purpose of life is whatever keeps you from killing yourself.

It's a joke dude. Nihilism is the belief that life is meaningless.
   20. flournoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 11:59 AM (#5918281)
Is driving without wearing a seat belt still a thing?


I have no idea. My post was just a reference to Camus' own death.
   21. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 12:03 PM (#5918285)
Life is without purpose when constrained by oppressive seat belts.

I know it's a joke, but I think the truth is actually somewhat the opposite. Many people flounder, and struggle badly when they have to define their own purpose in life, while they would be fine and happier if society gave them more prescriptive roles.

Most people are not well equipped emotionally and intellectually to deal with excesses of freedom and ambiguity.
   22. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 22, 2020 at 12:07 PM (#5918290)
Many people flounder, and struggle badly when they have to define their own purpose in life, while they would be fine and happier if society gave them more prescriptive roles.

Most people are not well equipped emotionally and intellectually to deal with excesses of freedom and ambiguity.
Said every totalitarian regime, ever?
   23. . Posted: January 22, 2020 at 12:13 PM (#5918292)
It's ultimately why totalitarian and authoritarian regimes get such wide support. The rules and verities set down by these regimes actually do, unfortunately, give great meaning to a lot of people's lives and spare them from the burdens of decision-making and freedom. Freedom includes by its very nature the freedom to #### up, and that can be a tough thing to live with. It's far easier to blame others for our #### ups.

We're kind of getting into politics again, but I've given up at this point. Carry on as you will.
   24. flournoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 12:30 PM (#5918299)
I know it's a joke, but I think the truth is actually somewhat the opposite. Many people flounder, and struggle badly when they have to define their own purpose in life, while they would be fine and happier if society gave them more prescriptive roles.

Most people are not well equipped emotionally and intellectually to deal with excesses of freedom and ambiguity.


That is definitely true for some people. I coach kids and get to see firsthand kids who thrive when young and the mercy of their parents' decisions struggle when they get older and gain some independence. But eventually the baby birds have to leave the nest.
   25. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:09 PM (#5918325)
submerged vehicle


This is the same reason why I only rent apartments with skylights that open to the roof. It would be absolutely horrible to drown by being trapped in a submerged apartment.
   26. . Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:11 PM (#5918329)
Is driving without wearing a seat belt still a thing? Like, I remember before seat belt laws there were plenty of people who were adamant that they would never wear one, you can't make them do it, it's tyranny, it's more hazardous to wear a seat belt than not to wear one because it could potentially trap you in a burning or submerged vehicle, etc.


Was Mary Jo Kopechne wearing a seatbelt?
   27. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:12 PM (#5918330)
That is definitely true for some people. I coach kids and get to see firsthand kids who thrive when young and the mercy of their parents' decisions struggle when they get older and gain some independence. But eventually the baby birds have to leave the nest.

Right. And there's a balance between giving people enough freedom, but also laying out some clear societal norms of behavior that help people find their place.
   28. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:13 PM (#5918331)
Said every totalitarian regime, ever?

I'll talking societal and cultural norms, not Gov't imposed law and regulation.
   29. Sunday silence Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:16 PM (#5918333)
we were at the local fair and I pointed to my daughter how interesting that the one pro Christian display in the whole fair was right next to the republican guy badgering people to vote. We both laughed.
   30. PreservedFish Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:16 PM (#5918334)
My father is still anti-seatbelt. Modern cars go ding ding ding if you don't put it on, and I've seen him fasten it behind his body so that it stops the ding ding ding but doesn't actually protect him.
   31. SoSH U at work Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:16 PM (#5918335)
because it could potentially trap you in a burning or submerged vehicle, etc.


An entirely reasonable conclusion if you grew up watching CHipS.

   32. Zonk Begs Your Pardon, Mr Blago Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:17 PM (#5918336)
It is incorrect to say give/"gave" when you really mean "enforce upon".

   33. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:18 PM (#5918340)
I'll talking societal and cultural norms, not Gov't imposed law and regulation.
Except that you want religious norms to be imposed as laws and regulations, but other than that, sure ;).
   34. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:22 PM (#5918343)
It is incorrect to say "gave" when you really mean "enforce upon".

Not enforce upon, just look down on you if you egregiously didn't comply.

In the 1950s it wasn't enforced that 25 y.o. men had to work, and get their own apartment

It's just that if you staid home drinking/smoking pot and doing nothing productive your parents would kick you out, and no woman would date you.

You could still flout the norms, and their were bohemian types that did, but in general the norms pushed young men to more fulfilling lives.
   35. PreservedFish Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:22 PM (#5918344)
Nice winky face! Defused a potentially hot situation.
   36. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:25 PM (#5918346)
Nice winky face! Defused a potentially hot situation.
I'm not trying to start anything - I just had to get that in there. It was on the tee.
   37. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:26 PM (#5918348)
Except that you want religious norms to be imposed as laws and regulations, but other than that, sure ;).

Really? Just thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and thou shalt not rape. Don't most people want those enforced by law?
   38. . Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:27 PM (#5918349)
Do unemployed 25 year olds who live with their parents get dates now?
   39. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:28 PM (#5918350)
Really? Just thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and thou shalt not rape. Don't most people want those enforced by law?
I suppose we could branch off into a discussion of where you draw the line between "religious norms" and "norms that facilitate the functioning of society," and you and I would probably put that line in different places (as well as the causality arrow), but we both probably have work we should be doing.
   40. . Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:36 PM (#5918353)
Except that you want religious norms to be imposed as laws and regulations, but other than that, sure ;).


The main thing the kneecapping of norms did was free up men to treat women like ####. It's simply not possible to free men up sexually to this degree *and* expect them to treat women well. It's like expecting replay to work. Women kind of know this, but don't want to admit it, because the idea of norms is itself seen as retrograde and patriarchal. But as with replay, the theoretical perfection we can imagine is not attainable. Men will either be forced by culture to be chivalrous (or neo-chivalrous) toward women, or men will treat women like ####.(*) Indeed, the kneecapping of norms is the underlying precipitant of what is often called "rape culture," or more intelligently, "the failure of consent." If you want to go full circle all the way back to that recent Slate post about the Mets 1992 spring training incident, that's a perfect example.

(*) And, as always, this is an aggregate cultural observation. There are exceptions, just as replay occasionally works.
   41. Zonk Begs Your Pardon, Mr Blago Posted: January 22, 2020 at 01:38 PM (#5918354)
Not enforce upon, just look down on you if you egregiously didn't comply.

In the 1950s it wasn't enforced that 25 y.o. men had to work, and get their own apartment

It's just that if you staid home drinking/smoking pot and doing nothing productive your parents would kick you out, and no woman would date you.

You could still flout the norms, and their were bohemian types that did, but in general the norms pushed young men to more fulfilling lives.


I'm not entirely sure what I find worse.... the mythologizing of pretend history, the get off my lawn inanity of cranky adults yelling at clouds, or the synthesis of both concepts into a toxic world view.

Nope, wait... I answered my own question.
   42. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 02:06 PM (#5918367)
I'm not entirely sure what I find worse.... the mythologizing of pretend history, the get off my lawn inanity of cranky adults yelling at clouds, or the synthesis of both concepts into a toxic world view.

Nope, wait... I answered my own question.


Yes, the 99.99% of human history that said that able bodied men who wouldn't work were to be shunned was toxic.

Much better to have 31% of prime-age men out of the work force, like we do, so they can be freed up to die of overdoses, suicide, suffer depression and isolation, turn to radical ideologies, and make those around them miserable.
   43. flournoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 02:11 PM (#5918369)
have 31% of prime-age men out of the work force, like we do


Is this true?
   44. Zonk Begs Your Pardon, Mr Blago Posted: January 22, 2020 at 02:23 PM (#5918373)

Yes, the 99.99% of human history that said that able bodied men who wouldn't work were to be shunned was toxic.

Much better to have 31% of prime-age men out of the work force, like we do, so they can be freed up to die of overdoses, suicide, suffer depression and isolation, turn to radical ideologies, and make those around them miserable.


You are, apparently, unfamiliar with historical life expectancy data.... or, say, historical alcohol usage norms.

Given your predilections, I would have thought you'd at least be familiar with the WCTU. Of course, its founding predates the hallowed 1950s by about 80 years and the height of its influence by about 30....
   45. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 02:28 PM (#5918375)

Is this true?


I apologize, I slightly misspoke. It's 31% of working age men. 11% of age 25-54, which the article calls prime-age. The article skips back and forth between the two terms and I got confused.

business/men-unemployment-jobs.html
   46. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 22, 2020 at 02:28 PM (#5918376)
I feel obliged to give a shout out to my college dorm, which is named after Frances Willard. Zonk, you know it.
   47. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 02:31 PM (#5918377)
It's a joke dude. Nihilism is the belief that life is meaningless.


Sure, but Camus was an absurdist, and absurdism and nihilism are kissing cousins. His rejection of nihilism was on the grounds that while life was meaningless, the struggle against that meaninglessness was not. So it's still relatively on point (as I understand things, anyway).
   48. Zonk Begs Your Pardon, Mr Blago Posted: January 22, 2020 at 02:34 PM (#5918379)
I feel obliged to give a shout out to my college dorm, which is named after Frances Willard. Zonk, you know it.


Heh - I do indeed...

It's entirely possible you had to step over me while I was passed out on a hallway floor, turning to radical ideologies, during an annual Willard Party.
   49. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 02:34 PM (#5918380)
Sure, but Camus was an absurdist, and absurdism and nihilism are kissing cousins. His rejection of nihilism was on the grounds that while life was meaningless, the struggle against that meaninglessness was not. So it's still relatively on point (as I understand things, anyway).

Ah, gotcha.
   50. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 22, 2020 at 02:36 PM (#5918382)
It's entirely possible you had to step over me while I was passed out on a hallway floor, turning to radical ideologies, during an annual Willard Party.
I think we established at some point that we only really overlapped by one year, right? I was '94-'98.
   51. PreservedFish Posted: January 22, 2020 at 02:39 PM (#5918385)
I am doubtful that it is even possible to determine whether or not Americans were more psychologically healthy in the 50s or today. In fact I am sure that it is not possible.
   52. JJ1986 Posted: January 22, 2020 at 03:02 PM (#5918391)
I slightly misspoke. It's 31% of working age men. 11% of age 25-54, which the article calls prime-age.
Slightly...
   53. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 03:26 PM (#5918403)
Did Fiers go to the GM? Did he go to the owner? Did he go to Houston's HR? I'm assuming he did none of that. If he did and they ignored it then I'm fine with Fiers coming out after leaving and revealing. If he didn't do any of that and simply waited until he left the Astros I would probably agree with Pedro's viewpoint with the caveat that I haven't read the article merely the snippet above.

Fiers wasn't standing up to people getting ground up in the machine or his company dumping toxic waste. He blew the whistle on an advantage he got to enjoy and potentially a financial windfall from.
   54. . Posted: January 22, 2020 at 03:29 PM (#5918405)
I am doubtful that it is even possible to determine whether or not Americans were more psychologically healthy in the 50s or today. In fact I am sure that it is not possible.


Well, there's certainly plenty of time series data on happiness. According to a Yale Law Journal article, women got significantly less happy between the early 1970s, and around 2010, both in absolute terms, and relative to men. There's a bunch of other data out there. I haven't had a whole lot of time to delve in, but is looks like happiness was typically higher in the 1950s than it is today.

Happiness is actually a tricky, personal, subjective thing. There were happy slaves BITD; there are profoundly unhappy rich and privileged people today. We're a less happy society today, even though we're far richer; as I've mentioned many times, the really bizarre thing about The Decline since the late 1970s is that it's coincided with a significant increase in the national wealth. There's really no serious indication that a wealthier society is a better one, or a happier one.
   55. flournoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 03:37 PM (#5918408)
"Happiness" isn't really a measurable quantity.
   56. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 03:37 PM (#5918409)
Alas, the NY Times is behind a paywall for me so I can't read the article but going to the BLS we find that the unemployment rate of 25 to 54 year old men is at about 3%. Over 55 is at 2.2 or so. Perhaps the NYT was using U6 numbers but our U6 number is in the mid 6% to get to 11% virtually all of that would have to be men which can't be right. Have no idea where the 31% comes from unless they are counting high school kids and retirees.
   57. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 03:40 PM (#5918411)
The 50's averaged an unemployment rate of roughly 4.5% but of course who they considered to be in the job was greatly different than it is nowadays. Millions and millions of women were not counted back then.
   58. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 03:46 PM (#5918413)
Looking at labor force participation is where I see the 31% coming from. In the 50's it was around 83 to 84% for men. Now it is around 69 to 70%. The issue is that people are using that number for a narrative the metric isn't really built for. As our population gets older (baby boomers) the number is going to fall. The number is mostly falling because of the aging of our population not because 25 year olds are getting lazy or because middle age people are becoming addicted to meth.
   59. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 03:58 PM (#5918417)
https://www.bls.gov/mlr/1999/12/art1full.pdf

Male 25-34 labor participation:
1950: 96.0
1960: 97.5
1970: 96.4
1980: 95.2
1990: 94.2
1998: 93.1
2015: 93.1 (projected)

Not a huge difference. The 1950s are pathetic, even worse than 1970. The hippies worked harder than the "greatest generation".

   60. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 04:01 PM (#5918419)
edit. I see that is from 1999. In 2018 it was 89%.
   61. pikepredator Posted: January 22, 2020 at 04:14 PM (#5918422)
 5. PreservedFish Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:42 AM (#5918162)
What would have been the ideal way for Fiers to blow the whistle?
   6. . Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:50 AM (#5918172)
[ Ignored Comment ]
   7. PreservedFish Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:52 AM (#5918178)
Oh, of course.


Love this exchange.

If we can't believe in nihilism anymore, what's the point of living?


I'm stealing that.

   62. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 22, 2020 at 04:17 PM (#5918423)
Did Fiers go to the GM? Did he go to the owner? Did he go to Houston's HR? I'm assuming he did none of that. If he did and they ignored it then I'm fine with Fiers coming out after leaving and revealing. If he didn't do any of that and simply waited until he left the Astros I would probably agree with Pedro's viewpoint with the caveat that I haven't read the article merely the snippet above.
I don’t see why Fiers should have been expected to play “If The Tsar Only Knew”. The Bench Coach was leading the effort with the involvement of numerous team employees. There’s no reason for him to pretend this was a rogue element operating outside team control. Fiers did what he could without putting himself at too great a risk. That’s not uncommon for whistleblowers, who often have mixed motives for coming forward when they do.
   63. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 04:24 PM (#5918425)
Fiers is a protected union employee and he was under contract for over 3 million dollars.. But sure he might have felt uncomfortable. Did he do anything while with the organization to voice his concerns? It may be baseball but they still have an HR department. I'm pretty sure Fiers didn't do this for the good of the game. Frank Thomas didn't wait until he retired and then started throwing teammates under the bus when it came to PED. He stood up in the middle of it and said it shouldn't be done and I believed refused to take the initial test to trigger automatic testing in baseball. On the other hand you have Jose Canseco who after retiring has whistleblown left and right and everyone hates him.
   64. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 04:39 PM (#5918430)
Fiers is a protected union employee and he was under contract for over 3 million dollars.. But sure he might have felt uncomfortable.

The cheating was being done by union members collaborating with management. He works for a cartel so had no real ability to go work elsewhere within his profession (until his contract was up or he was traded). He's not a hero or anything, but I can understand his reasons for waiting to talk about it.
   65. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 22, 2020 at 04:40 PM (#5918432)
It may be baseball but they still have an HR department. I'm pretty sure Fiers didn't do this for the good of the game. Frank Thomas didn't wait until he retired and then started throwing teammates under the bus when it came to PED. He stood up in the middle of it and said it shouldn't be done and I believed refused to take the initial test to trigger automatic testing in baseball. On the other hand you have Jose Canseco who after retiring has whistleblown left and right and everyone hates him.
C’mon, HR departments don’t exist to undercut top management. That’s especially true in MLB, where they have virtually nothing to do with player personnel. Frank Thomas is in no way comparable to Fiers. Thomas was a Hall of Fame player who had already made well over $60M without even adjusting for inflation when he reportedly balked at the survey testing in 2003. In 2017, Fiers was in his first year of arbitration after making close to the minimum while under team control. Canseco is also different in that he only came forward after he was out of the game, and did so for financial reward by peddling his book.
   66. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 22, 2020 at 04:46 PM (#5918433)
On the other hand you have Jose Canseco who after retiring has whistleblown left and right and everyone hates him.
Well yeah, if you blow the whistle with your ass rather than your mouth...
   67. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 04:58 PM (#5918435)
I'm not saying he needed to quit but it appears he made no attempt to tell anyone about it or ask any question from those in charge. He spilled the beans after he left and collected his world series checks.

Again, he's a union member and there are laws and rules that protect him. He got non tendered by the Astros after 2017 and got picked up and made 6 million the next year. If Houston were to send him down because he approached them about this cheating that would be seriously stupid on Houston's part. But anyway, after leaving the Astros he didn't go and get a lawyer and sit down with MLB over this. He wasn't even really whistleblowing either. He was letting his team know that the Astros were doing it and two seasons later he talked with The Athletic about it.
   68. The Duke Posted: January 22, 2020 at 05:00 PM (#5918436)
Totalitarian regimes get the support of the people because they like having their roles laid out for them? Well, if that isn’t the stupidest comment I have ever read it’s pretty close. Tell you what, fly over to the China, tell them you are a Uigher and see what kind of role they carve out for you - I’m sure you’ll love it.

Just to be clear these regimes “get the support of the people” through fear and violence. All of them. Every time. Read even a little bit of history and this will be clear. I spent 4 days in east Germany and I’ve never been so scared in my entire life. No one, and I mean no one, supports that.
   69. . Posted: January 22, 2020 at 05:05 PM (#5918439)
Again, he's a union member and there are laws and rules that protect him.


There's not a single law or rule that protects him from getting waived and blackballed, a la Kaepernick. It still might happen.
   70. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 05:07 PM (#5918440)
Again, he's a union member and there are laws and rules that protect him.

Sure but that's expecting the union to advocate on his behalf when it hurts superstar players. I can understand his reluctance to rely on that.

Like I said, Fiers is not exactly a profile in courage, but people who are more upset/outspoken about his actions than they are about the actual cheating have their priorities misplaced.
   71. PreservedFish Posted: January 22, 2020 at 05:08 PM (#5918441)
I think that life is more complex than that, Duke.
   72. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 05:11 PM (#5918444)

Totalitarian regimes get the support of the people because they like having their roles laid out for them? Well, if that isn’t the stupidest comment I have ever read it’s pretty close. Tell you what, fly over to the China, tell them you are a Uigher and see what kind of role they carve out for you - I’m sure you’ll love it.

I think China is a very good example of what snapper is talking about. As long as the economy keeps growing rapidly, the majority seems content not to rock the boat too much. As you allude to, however, it often doesn't work out very well for minorities/nonconformists.
   73. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 22, 2020 at 05:12 PM (#5918445)
Only one player from the 2017 Astros came forward, yet some insist he did it the wrong way, which really seems like another way of saying that you prefer he not come forward at all. Wanting whistleblowers to come forward without doing anything to mitigate their own risks is unrealistic.
   74. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 22, 2020 at 05:39 PM (#5918450)
"Happiness" isn't really a measurable quantity.
Sure it is. How much does a warm gun weigh?
   75. . Posted: January 22, 2020 at 05:45 PM (#5918452)
Only one player from the 2017 Astros came forward, yet some insist he did it the wrong way, which really seems like another way of saying that you prefer he not come forward at all. Wanting whistleblowers to come forward without doing anything to mitigate their own risks is unrealistic.


"Why didn't you bring these claims to our attention when you were still in Mr. Weinstein's employ???? You benefitted from his money, didn't you????"
   76. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 05:58 PM (#5918455)
Kaepernick got paid. But more importantly they would be blackballing him because they would be trying to cover up cheating. You think that would end well for the Astros and the league?
   77. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 06:00 PM (#5918456)
Unions have to advocate on the player's behalf. But I'm not even talking that far. I'm talking about how the league can't simply hide him away and not pay him and get away with it.
   78. Omineca Greg Posted: January 22, 2020 at 07:03 PM (#5918466)
Camus wasn't surviving that accident, seat belt or not.

He was in the front passenger seat of [TRIGGER WARNING: smashed up car] that.

It's crushed all the way to the rear axle.

The driver was wearing his seat belt, not on the side of the car that impacted the tree, and he still died, though not immediately.
   79. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 22, 2020 at 07:38 PM (#5918474)
I think China is a very good example of what snapper is talking about. As long as the economy keeps growing rapidly, the majority seems content not to rock the boat too much. As you allude to, however, it often doesn't work out very well for minorities/nonconformists.

I wasn't talking about totalitarianism, though, I was talking about more traditional societies with stricter social norms/expectations. China definitely has (or had) that, in addition to totalitarianism.

In general, however, the kind of strong culture I'm talking about is generally hated by totalitarians because they usually want to be free to shape a "new man" of some sort. That's why pretty much every totalitarian state attacks religion, and the family, as well as other non-state/party social organizations (unions, clubs, etc.).
   80. cardsfanboy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 07:51 PM (#5918478)
The fact that there is any argument being made anywhere that Fiers might be the bad guy here, shows you how f-'ed up the world is... no matter how you look at it, whistle blowing is always the right thing to do. You see corruption, you act on it.. and that is acknowledging the fact that you might have been complicit in the corruption in the first place. At some point in time doing "good" is better than choosing to not do good when you can.
   81. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 08:05 PM (#5918480)
Your company is cooking the books. You own stock in the company. You sell at a profit. Then short the stock and "whistleblow". That's good? That sequence was the right sequence? We should tell you good job?
   82. schmack Posted: January 22, 2020 at 08:13 PM (#5918481)
It's entirely possible you had to step over me while I was passed out on a hallway floor, turning to radical ideologies, during an annual Willard Party.
I think we established at some point that we only really overlapped by one year, right? I was '94-'98.


I was '94 to '98 too, but was over in Shepard. Small world!
   83. Fancy Pants Handle on Altuve's Buzzer Posted: January 22, 2020 at 08:31 PM (#5918485)
I wasn't talking about totalitarianism, though, I was talking about more traditional societies with stricter social norms/expectations. China definitely has (or had) that, in addition to totalitarianism.

Oppression is still oppression. Whether it comes from a tyrannical government, or from a community that threatens ostracisation or worse, matters very little to those being oppressed.
   84. . Posted: January 22, 2020 at 08:34 PM (#5918487)
Your company is cooking the books. You own stock in the company. You sell at a profit. Then short the stock and "whistleblow". That's good? That sequence was the right sequence? We should tell you good job?


Did Fiers insider trade? I don't remember that part.
   85. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 08:49 PM (#5918489)
Is whistleblowing always right?
   86. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 22, 2020 at 08:52 PM (#5918490)
Your company is cooking the books. You own stock in the company. You sell at a profit. Then short the stock and "whistleblow". That's good? That sequence was the right sequence? We should tell you good job?
As should be obvious, that scenario has little to do with Fiers. It should be equally obvious that requiring whistleblowers to exhaust internal procedures before going public is a futile process that will deter many if not most whistleblowers.
   87. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:00 PM (#5918492)
Is whistleblowing always right?
Not every purported whistleblower is telling the truth. Some may be misinformed, or are just making up stuff to cover up their own wrongdoing or to pursue their own agenda. But that is an entirely separate issue from requiring whistleblowers to take their claim to the people who presided over the alleged wrongdoing.
   88. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:00 PM (#5918493)
I was responding to post 80.

But anyway, hey did you talk HR? Sigh, never mind. This is too much work.

The idea that you simply run to the nearest reporter first no matter what is absurd.
   89. cardsfanboy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:06 PM (#5918496)
Not every purported whistleblower is telling the truth.


Agree... but that isn't my point.

Your company is cooking the books. You own stock in the company. You sell at a profit. Then short the stock and "whistleblow". That's good? That sequence was the right sequence? We should tell you good job?


No, but it doesn't stop you from doing the right thing even if you caused it. And it doesn't stop you from being called brave to do it. You still should be tried and convicted if you have did a crime that you are whistle blowing for.

   90. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:07 PM (#5918497)
Fiers not going up the chain with this issue while as an Astro possibly cost two people their jobs and possibly others in the days, weeks, months to come.
   91. cardsfanboy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:11 PM (#5918498)
Fiers not going up the chain with this issue while as an Astro possibly cost two people their jobs and possibly others in the days, weeks, months to come.


Agree. Not saying it was handled the best, just saying that every person who legitimately whistle blows is a person to be admired for that particular action... whether they did it the best way is a different story, whether they were innocent is also a different story...

But ultimately any, and every one who more or less rats out a "crime" that they have a bit of complicity in, and knowing full and well they might receive punishment, deserves a degree of positive recognition of strength of character (for that one instance)
   92. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:24 PM (#5918500)
Fiers not going up the chain with this issue while as an Astro possibly cost two people their jobs
Are you talking about Hinch/Luhnow or Cora/Beltran? Either way, their own actions (or lack thereof) are what cost them their jobs.
   93. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:26 PM (#5918503)
He shouldn't be admired and his ounce of admiration gets cancelled out by 3 oz of ruining possibly innocent people's lives unnecessarily.

Manfred declared that anymore shenanigans would cost the GM and Manager a suspension. Fiers did not give the company a chance to rectify the issue.

I used to work at a union hotel and during negotiations the union could get vicious. Setting off fire suppressant systems, breaking things, and generally just found their best to shut the place down. Now what if they take it too far? What if they start to disable safety measures and some employee who doesn't agree with that instead of telling management that the safety features have been disabled goes and tells the local news channel? What if that changes then guess in with cameras and the fire Marshall and exposes all the dangers and results in the executive committee getting fired? That was the right thing to do? We should admire the whistleblower for doing the "right thing"?
   94. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:28 PM (#5918504)
What actions was Luhnow supposed to take if he didn't know it was happening? The commissioner decreed the GM was getting suspended no matter if a team pulled these kinds of shenanigans again.
   95. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:36 PM (#5918507)
What actions was Luhnow supposed to take if he didn't know it was happening?
Oh, you buy that? Er, OK. But what about Hinch?
   96. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:39 PM (#5918509)
He shouldn't be admired and his ounce of admiration gets cancelled out by 3 oz of ruining possibly innocent people's lives unnecessarily.
Neither Luhnow, Hinch, or Cora are ‘possibly innocent’. They were in it up to their eyeballs, and/or failed miserably to live up to their responsibilities to see their team complied with the MLB rules. To put Fiers in their class is just wrong.
   97. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:42 PM (#5918511)
Who is coming out saying Luhnow knew?

Hinch was against it and even destroyed the monitor in an attempt to stop it. That you think you could have done a better job doesn't necessarily mean he should lose his job. Fiers tells his bosses what's going on and if Luhnow directs Hinch, the coaches, and the staff to put a stop to it with possibly Hinch still has a job. Fiers helps achieve the right thing and all is right in the world. Instead he never even gave people within the organization a chance to fix the problem.
   98. cardsfanboy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:43 PM (#5918512)
Hinch was against it and even destroyed the monitor in an attempt to stop it.


um he's the guy in charge... if he really wanted to stop it, he would have stopped it. There really is no simpler way to explain it.

But again, my point is that the fallout is the fallout... the fact that he spoke up about a 'crime' is the important thing and something that we should protect and champion for.


as far as Luhnow knowing, that was Hinch... if he broke a monitor and didn't tell Luhnow why he had to buy another monitor, then of course that makes Hinch complicit... if Hinch is the bastion of integrity you claim, he tells Luhnow why it happened and then Luhnow buys another monitor... either way one of them is clearly guilty of culpability. Lies of omission still makes you culpable.

It's literally impossible to argue that both are innocent... at least one is absolutely guilty.
   99. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:45 PM (#5918513)
If Luhnow failed miserably to live up to his responsibility then virtually every single Astro coach, trainer, and exec should be fired and the team taken away from Crane. On top of that Manfred and the entire commissioner's office should be swept out of office for allowing this to continually happen and with many teams.
   100. McCoy Posted: January 22, 2020 at 09:48 PM (#5918514)
Baseball managers are no longer the "guys in charge".

So now we want to quibble about how many innocent lives Fiers ruined? What's the old saying? Let 10 guilty men go free rather than imprisoning 1 innocent man?

Look at my scenario of the union hotel. It should be championed to ignore the proper channels to do whatever you want regardless of the repercussions to others?
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