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Monday, January 18, 2021

Reds wanted Gleyber Torres from Yankees in rumored Luis Castillo deal

No wonder the rumored Luis Castillo trade to the Yankees isn’t happening.

In exchange for Castillo, the Reds asked for Yankees shortstop Gleyber Torres and more, MLB Network’s Jon Heyman reported on Monday.

The internet was abuzz over the weekend with erroneous reports of a trade involving Castillo, the Reds’ star pitcher, going to the Yankees for Clint Frazier and Miguel Andujar. But Reds general manager Nick Krall strongly denied the reports, even addressing them publicly.

“[The rumors] are completely false,” Krall wrote in a text to MLB.com. “We intend to have [Castillo] as a member of our rotation for 2021.”

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 18, 2021 at 01:19 PM | 26 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: gleyber torres, luis castillo, reds, yankees

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   1. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 18, 2021 at 02:12 PM (#6000295)
Christ, if all the Reds wanted for for Castillo was Torres, Frazier and Andujar, they should've offered Sonny Gray instead. That would've really sealed the deal.
   2. Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: January 18, 2021 at 02:23 PM (#6000299)
It doesn’t seem like they were asking for all three but apparently did ask for Torres while there were reports of an Andujar/Frazier package being done which Krall denied.

I understand the Yanks not dealing Torres for Castillo but if I was the Reds Torres is the guy I’d ask for. If you don’t get him, you keep your star pitcher.
   3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 18, 2021 at 03:03 PM (#6000305)
Right, ask for the moon, because you never know, you just might get it.
   4. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 18, 2021 at 03:08 PM (#6000306)
If you don’t get him, you keep your star pitcher.
Can you be a ‘star pitcher’ with an under .500 career record and never having tossed a shutout? Castillo might be useful, and at a reasonable cost, but trying to Gleyber Torres for him looks to be wasting everyone’s time, if that was what happened.
   5. Howie Menckel Posted: January 18, 2021 at 03:28 PM (#6000311)
given what the Yankees need, what they have, and what they can acquire, seems like LCastillo for Torres straightup is worthwhile.

the shutout line did make me LOL
   6. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: January 18, 2021 at 03:34 PM (#6000313)
December 28, 2015: Traded by the Cincinnati Reds to the New York Yankees for Eric Jagielo (minors), Caleb Cotham, Rookie Davis and Tony Renda.

July 25, 2016: Traded by the New York Yankees to the Chicago Cubs for Rashad Crawford (minors), Billy McKinney, Gleyber Torres and Adam Warren.


*sigh

/reds fans
   7. Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: January 18, 2021 at 03:57 PM (#6000317)
Can you be a ‘star pitcher’ with an under .500 career record and never having tossed a shutout? Castillo might be useful, and at a reasonable cost, but trying to Gleyber Torres for him looks to be wasting everyone’s time, if that was what happened.


In fairness they are trading for a career .271 hitter with just two sacrifice bunts so it sounds pretty even.*

* I mean if we are using pointless metrics from like 1915 let’s go all in.

Seriously, if Castillo doesn’t do it for you that’s fine but let’s at least use some reasonable methods to discuss these guys. Even if you want to ignore the short season he was great in 2019 (137 ERA+, 29% K rate, 9th in Pitcher WAR for pitchers) and he was just as good in 2020. Like I said initially, it looks like a pretty reasonable deal to me. I get not doing it if you’re the Yankees (or Reds for that matter) but won/loss record and shutouts? Come on.
   8. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: January 18, 2021 at 04:32 PM (#6000326)
Rosenthal today:

If the Reds trade a starting pitcher, it’s still more likely to be righty Sonny Gray [than Castillo], but even that possibility might be fading. The team sent closer Raisel Iglesias to the Angels earlier this offseason, but owner Bob Castellini has resisted tear-downs in the past and instructed club officials to focus on finding a shortstop, with free agent Didi Gregorius, a former Red, among the possibilities.


I don't follow the Reds closely, but this sounds like an owner who meddles.
   9. Walt Davis Posted: January 18, 2021 at 04:52 PM (#6000329)
December 28, 2015: Traded by the Cincinnati Reds to the New York Yankees for Eric Jagielo (minors), Caleb Cotham, Rookie Davis and Tony Renda.

July 25, 2016: Traded by the New York Yankees to the Chicago Cubs for Rashad Crawford (minors), Billy McKinney, Gleyber Torres and Adam Warren.


C'mon, Rookie is a way better name than Gleyber and he's a Davis and we're easily worth twice what anybody else is.
   10. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 18, 2021 at 05:05 PM (#6000333)

I don't follow the Reds closely, but this sounds like an owner who meddles.


It also sounds like they have no idea which way they want to go, or perhaps, there are different opinions on that in their front office.
   11. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 18, 2021 at 05:30 PM (#6000342)
Seriously, if Castillo doesn’t do it for you that’s fine but let’s at least use some reasonable methods to discuss these guys.

You should never trade a 24 y.o. position player for a 28 y.o. pitcher who projects to equivalent performance.

I don't think there's a pitcher in the league I would trade a young player of Torres's calibre for. Pitchers are just too unreliable.
   12. Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: January 18, 2021 at 07:14 PM (#6000349)
Snapper - I agree with you completely. My point is I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to ask for that in return. If I’m the Reds Castillo is a guy I want to keep unless someone blows me away.
   13. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 18, 2021 at 07:32 PM (#6000351)
Snapper - I agree with you completely. My point is I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to ask for that in return. If I’m the Reds Castillo is a guy I want to keep unless someone blows me away.

It's not unreasonable if you absolutely don't want to trade Castillo, and are just looking to see if someone will screw up, and way overpay. If you actually want to make a deal, asking for Torres is a great way to shut down negotiations before they start.
   14. Ron J Posted: January 18, 2021 at 08:32 PM (#6000359)
#13 The reporting I have seen says the Reds had no real interest in trading Castillo.

I mean they'd take Mike Trout -- if the Angels threw in a little salary relief. But it would take that kind of a deal.
   15. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: January 18, 2021 at 08:47 PM (#6000365)
It also sounds like they have no idea which way they want to go, or perhaps, there are different opinions on that in their front office.

That's entirely possible. Dick Williams resigned as GM unexpectedly this winter. Krall was an internal hire and they didn't run an exhaustive search. He's supposed to be a smart guy but I don't know if he is truly running the show.
   16. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: January 18, 2021 at 09:17 PM (#6000372)
he's a Davis and we're easily worth twice what anybody else is.


It's the Reds. They probably thought he was Eric's kid or something.
   17. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 18, 2021 at 11:43 PM (#6000406)
If the Reds trade a starting pitcher, it’s still more likely to be righty Sonny Gray [than Castillo]


I realize that Gray's improved since he left the Yankees with nowhere to go but up or an early retirement, but the Yankees would likely just as soon try to bring back Javier Vazquez for a third go-around.
   18. Howie Menckel Posted: January 19, 2021 at 12:00 AM (#6000411)
assuming, as a lot of us do, that Torres is not a real SS, then he's a 2B with a 122 OPS+ at age 24.

that's appealing, duh - but he also has 3 MLB years in already.

teammate Andujar also was being sized in some circles for a Cooperstown plaque after a 130 OPS+ at age 23 in 2018. of course, his position is DH and career figure now is 115 OPS+ off two very lost seasons.

and no one would suggest a "SGray II: This Time It Counts in The Bronx" off-Broadway show. Cashman was unusually blunt even before his official departure.
   19. Dillon Gee Escape Plan Posted: January 19, 2021 at 08:24 AM (#6000454)
In fairness they are trading for a career .271 hitter with just two sacrifice bunts so it sounds pretty even.*


They should include Judge while they're at it. .272 with 0 sacrifice hits!
   20. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 19, 2021 at 09:42 AM (#6000480)
I realize that Gray's improved since he left the Yankees with nowhere to go but up or an early retirement, but the Yankees would likely just as soon try to bring back Javier Vazquez for a third go-around.

Let's be fair. This one only reflects badly on the Yankees. Sonny Gray has been an excellent pitcher at all time except when being managed by the Yankees and their staff. The Yankees development and management of pitchers has sucked for a long time.

The Yankees have a history of taking talented pitchers and turning them into mediocre or worse, or getting them hurt. Something is very rotten in the state of Denmark.
   21. Ron J Posted: January 19, 2021 at 10:20 AM (#6000495)
#19 Don't be silly. The only position that bat control is vital at is second base.

All that means is the Judge should not be tried at second until he learns to bunt and execute the hit and run.
   22. Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: January 19, 2021 at 11:00 AM (#6000508)
Eddie Collins is the all time leader in sacrifice bunts. He won four World Series titles and is in the Hall of Fame.

Barry Bonds is the all time leader in home runs. He never won a World Series title and is not in the Hall of Fame.

Sacrifice Bunts > Home Runs

Fact.

   23. Walt Davis Posted: January 19, 2021 at 05:15 PM (#6000636)
3 MLB years in already.

Gleyber is a super-2 so 4 years of control left; Castillo has 3 FWIW.

While I agree with Snapper's general dictum, if I was the Yanks, I'd have seriously considered this before saying no. (To be clear, I'd have still said no.) I might have looked if there was a Reds' addition to make the trade worth it. The Yanks' rotation right now is somewhere between excellent and Gerrit Cole plus 6 guys on the IL. Torres shouldn't be a SS, they just re-signed LeMahieu, the offense should be good enough regardless and next year is the offseason of the FA SS (and one of those guys whould be gettable at the deadline for not a lot). Certainly from the Reds' perspective, it's hard to think of a better circumstance to ask for Torres.

In terms of value, per bWAR they are quite similar. Castillo has about 3 full seasons' worth of PT and 9.6 WAR, 5.4 WAA. Torres has about 2 years worth, 6.6 WAR, 2.4 WAA. So the extra year of control over Torres matters, esp to the Reds (the Yanks could extend Castillo easily enough). To re-emphasize, I agree with Snapper that if of equal seasonal value and no major age difference, almost always keep the position player ... that's even more true if the position player has an extra year of control.
   24. dolce Posted: January 19, 2021 at 09:23 PM (#6000695)
Presuming the Reds would have accepted a 1-1 Torres for Castillo offer, it largely seems like a lateral move for the Reds which makes less sense as they've been cutting payroll by trading and non-tendering two of their better players, Iglesias and Bradley. Without these two players, and assuming they don't re-sign Bauer, the Reds won't be very competitive in the near future. They could flip Torres immediately or sometime in the next few years, but that seems like protracting the decision to acquire a package of quality prospects. One move versus several.

I'm reminded of George Costanza looking annoyed to appear hard at work.
   25. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 19, 2021 at 09:25 PM (#6000696)
To re-emphasize, I agree with Snapper that if of equal seasonal value and no major age difference, almost always keep the position player ... that's even more true if the position player has an extra year of control.

And the position player is 4 years younger.
   26. Walt Davis Posted: January 19, 2021 at 11:13 PM (#6000730)
And the position player is 4 years younger.

At these ages, I'm not particularly concerned about that. (1) It's mainly about years of control at this stage of a career and neither will be in the "danger years" before their arb ends. (2) Pitchers are weird and the experience vs. age impact on development seems more tilted towards experience than it does for hitters. That is, Torres obviously might take a big step forward in his early prime but Castillo is this close to turning into Gerrit Cole or Verlander. (OK, he'll never throw 230-240 innings like Verlander.)

To try to make that as clear as I can ...

1. What we're worried about is the next few years because after that they are FA. (If we're talking who to offer a 7-year extension to...)
2. I don't see any strong reason to expect Torres ages 24-26 to be better than Castillo 28-30.
3. I don't see any strong reason to think that Torres has a much better chance of taking a big step forward than Castillo. Due to injury risk, there is an obviously bigger risk that Castillo goes backward. That's the main reason you don't swap position players for pitchers of equal value.
4. Based on #1-#3, the extra year of control over Torres becomes quite important.

Obviously I could be wrong about that first part of #3.

Were we talking about swapping Torres for a position player of equal current value but 4 years older, then I'd be more concerned about the age difference because I think Torres would have a much better chance of taking a big step forward due to standard-ish aging curves. Or if Torres was 27 and the other player 31, I'd be more concerned about the other player declining.

FWIW, ZiPS still loves Torres and projects 4.4 zWAR on a 136 OPS+; Castillo comes in at 3.9 on a 128 ERA+ and 174 IP. That 136 OPS+ would be a big jump for Torres (career 122) while it's more of the same for Castillo. To join Cole, Castillo likely needs to get his IP up to 200-210.

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