Pimpin' ain't easy.

Is he honestly taking hints on how to run an organization from Hendry? Is he really that dumb?

What a douche. Seriously, get your ass fired from my favourite organization. You know, ever since last year he's lied through his teeth about injuries and I knew he was this year. But an outright fabrication that's BS. It also begs the question of why they DFA'd Rosario for free and didn't let Zambrano stretch out his arm in AAA if they knew they might be down BJ and have a thin bullpen. Does this guy seriously know how to run an organization? It seems abundantly clear that he does not.

The Jays still play in Toronto, right? Isn't it about time they brought a hockey mentality to the game?

The dude got himself hired by spouting off lies, why would you expect him to tell the truth now?

The dude got himself hired by spouting off lies

i've never heard this, can you elaborate?

It's the ununbiased rendition of the hearsay story that he had promised that he could compete without raising salaries against the Yankee$ and Red $ox only to later proclaim that he couldn't compete without an increased payroll.

Whatever he said, the Prospectus 2007 team essay on the Blue Jays summed up the correlation b/n the Blue Jays team salary and Rogers stock anyways.

I'm much more mad that I traded for Ryan on his false information in my roto league.

What a douche. Seriously, get your ass fired from my favourite organization. You know, ever since last year he's lied through his teeth about injuries and I knew he was this year. But an outright fabrication that's BS.

are you serious?

maybe i just have a different take on situations like this. As a fan, i dont feel entitled to intimate details of players bodies and injuries. It probably applies more in football strategically, but I would want the management of my favorite team to be misleading about injuries if it helped the player or the competitive edge at all.

I can't believe there are more JP apologists out there. Give it up, his drafting sucks, and he's inadequate for the team's situation as a GM. Everyone says the injuries are luck, but I could see them coming from a mile away the way he constructed the team. The core is a bunch of amazing, but expensive injury prone veterans. Yes, he had to take risks to win in the AL East, but closing your eyes and throwing a hail mary is not the way to go.

The BJ Ryan lie was entirely done to not scare the fanbase and media and bug the player, so everyone would remain calm. But its just symptomatic of how he does things, he's a spin doctor. He admitted in an interview he signed Wells because "what would it tell the fans of Toronto if they couldn't keep their marquee players." C'mon. Waste that much money in a middle market for PR?

I'm much more mad that I traded for Ryan on his false information in my roto league.

WTF?! You traded for a pitcher who was announced to have a back injury? I'm not really sure that it's JP's fault you f*cked up there...

but I would want the management of my favorite team to be misleading about injuries if it helped the player or the competitive edge at all.

That's the hockey mentality right there. "Upper Body Injury" is not only a good band name, it's the most common statement made by hockey coaches/trainers/GMs.

The core is a bunch of amazing, but expensive injury prone veterans

Halladay is "injury-prone" like someone is a "guaranteed lottery winner".
B.J. Ryan was fine until this year.
Wells isn't injury-prone.
Overbay isn't injury-prone.
Glaus is injury-prone.
Reed Johnson isn't expensive or injury-prone.
Rios got sick, not injured.
Hinske just plained sucked after the big signing.

I'm talking about the core of free agent players he brought in:

Glaus, Thomas, Burnett, Ryan (there were points when he signed his contract and was overworked last year that with his awkward delivery would eventually run into problems. And this is why the 5 years lucrative offer was so shocking). That's about 40 milloin right there, about half the team's payroll this year.

Another point: When they said League had an "over developed lat muscle" I knew that was a lie too. He has a rotator cuff tear, but they BS'd about that also. C'mon, lies coming out of everywhere is ridiculous.

Lying to the media and fans like this is really only a problem for me as far as betting goes. There's a reason that in football they have to annouce injuries correctly and accurately, because it's difficult to tell whether any misinformation is for strategic or financial purposes. I know that far fewer people bet on baseball, but if you knew that Ryan's injury was an arm injury rather than a back injury, then it may have changed your interpretation of the lines for the Blue Jays to win the East/AL/World Series.

I can see lying about this if you're trying to trade for another closer/ninth inning guy and you don't won't to blow any leverage you might have in trade talks.

But to lie about this to no point and purpose....

He had no plan "B" and if his arm was sore why the heck was it not treated? They still let him pitch? Whose asinine idea was that?

(shakes head)

Best Regards

John

You know, it's easy to think that peeps here think JP should be fired until you realise that only one poster is posting the bulk of those comments. And I seem to remember MSI has been calling for JP's head for over a year now.

Ricciardi lied, Ryan's arm died!

Do I have a case against the Blue Jays if I bought a season ticket expecting them to compete and it turns out they hid an injury to a key player?

Lying to the media and fans like this is really only a problem for me as far as betting goes.

I think it's important to be honest about this kind of stuff for reasons other than betting. It's important to me as a fan to know that my team is being straight with me. If they're lying about an injury, what else are they lying about? Are you really rebuilding, or are you simply rearranging the deck chairs? Did you really make an effort to sign that free agent, or are you blowing smoke? While I suppose smart fans -- especially those of us who read BTF/Prospectus -- will know if we're being hoodwinked, having the GM blow smoke still bothers me.

The fact that Ricciardi is the one doing the lying here strikes me as even worse in that he (more or less) comes from the sabermetric tradition which, if anything, seeks to take the bullshit out of baseball. And here he is adding to it.

The fact that Ricciardi is the one doing the lying here strikes me as even worse in that he (more or less) comes from the sabermetric tradition which, if anything, seeks to take the ######## out of baseball. And here he is adding to it.

You thought Beane was a paragon of virtue and honesty in Moneyball?

If anything I think the preoccupation with efficiency at all costs can be bad for the menschness of the spreadsheet warriors...

You thought Beane was a paragon of virtue and honesty in Moneyball?

Good heavens no.

If anything I think the preoccupation with efficiency at all costs can be bad for the menschness of the spreadsheet warriors...

Since you put it in terms of "efficiency: there's another reason to slam Ricciardi over this: misinformation detracts from efficiency, it doesn't enhance it. Lying may aid expediency, of course, but that isn't what Beane and Ricciardi's reps are built on, is it?

Thinking about this even more, I'm not even sure how this lie was expedient. He says he did it so the writers aren't constantly bugging Ryan and asking him how his arm was doing. Why wouldn't they then just have constantly bugged him about how his back was doing? Indeed, it could have increased the problem because writers generally know that arm problems can be serious and may lead to a lot of time off. Back problems may come and go, which would encourage far more questioning about day-to-day status.

I don't mean to turn this into Watergate, but I've found in my career as a litigator that when someone readilly cops to a lie, and the reason for the lie doesn't make sense, there are often far more sinister reasons for the lie.

First, in any future injury report, Riccardi's credibility takes a hit. And second, the excuse is weak. Ryan is adult and a veteran professional athlete. He can handle the media pressure like he's handling it right now.

"I would want the management of my favorite team to be misleading about injuries if it helped the player or the competitive edge at all."

In spring training? Besides, I'm skeptical of the effectiveness of this strategy because Ryan wasn't performing well in the regular season.

I don't mean to turn this into Watergate, but I've found in my career as a litigator that when someone readilly cops to a lie, and the reason for the lie doesn't make sense, there are often far more sinister reasons for the lie.

I was thinking the exact same thing but I couldn't come up with a motive.

If this ####### hadn't fraudulently misrepresented the nature of Ryan's injury, I wouldn't have paid top dollar for him at my fantasy league's auction, and I wouldn't have ~ of my payroll sitting on the ####### 60-day DL. I paid $200 to enter my league; Ryan's injury hurt my chance of winning (~$3500) by ~10% or so. This ###### Ricciardi cost me a bunch of money with his fraud; it's a shame that "fantasy league damages" aren't sufficient standing for a lawsuit.

I like him more now. Remember Bob Dylan scowling on SIXTY MINUTES that the media was not god, that everyone should lie to them...

I was thinking the exact same thing but I couldn't come up with a motive.

A couple off the top of my head (though they may not stand up once I think about it some more):

Season ticket sales: If the star closer has elbow trouble in spring training, many fans may assume (not wrongly) that he could be lost for extended periods, hurting the team, and thereby lowering ticket sales.

A** protection: If it's known that Ricciardi has a serious problem with his closer's elbow in the spring, there is an expectation among fans that he could still possibly make a deal to cover for the loss. If the elbow problem isn't known until a month into the season, he can say "hey, it's hard to deal for a closer after the season started! What can I do?"

Insurance/contract/payroll ramifications?: I don't know as much about this sort of thing, but it's possible that there are different payroll ramifications for a player hitting the 60-day DL in the spring as opposed to the regular season. I'll admit this could be a stretch, but if anyone has any insight here, please enlighten us.

Trying to throw Ryan under the bus?: This is more of a stretch/conspiracy theory than anything, but maybe he's somehow hoping that the story will come out with a spin that Ryan was the one not being straight about the injury, changing the story from "$47M bust" to "stubborn player deprives team of services." This probably doesn't make sense, but the motive -- deflecting blame from Riccardi -- seems a natural one for an embattled GM.

This could be fun! Anyone else have any other theories?

RE: Post 25.

Whatever the motive, as deepthroat once said, it's best to follow the money.

Wow.

I can't believe ANYONE thinks he has an obligation to the media over his obligation to the team and the players.


He did the right thing.

What I don't udnerstand is why he 'came clean' now? What is to be gained?

Don't Bud Selig and his sidekicks frown on this? It's verbotem in the NFL, IIRC.

I imagibe that other execs have lied like this, but not ever fessed up.

You know, it's easy to think that peeps here think JP should be fired until you realise that only one poster is posting the bulk of those comments. And I seem to remember MSI has been calling for JP's head for over a year now.

Probably 6 consecutive posts at a time.

The fact that Ricciardi is the one doing the lying here strikes me as even worse in that he (more or less) comes from the sabermetric tradition which, if anything, seeks to take the ######## out of baseball. And here he is adding to it.

Aside from wading into whether JP is saberrific or not, the A's have built themselves quite the reputation regarding injury updates. I wouldn't necessarily call it misinformation, and it's certainly not outright lying like JP did, but most A's fans have a healthy distrust for the team's injury announcements.

Ricciardi's successor will be Ferenc Gyurcsany.

I can't believe there are more JP apologists out there. Give it up, his drafting sucks, and he's inadequate for the team's situation as a GM. Everyone says the injuries are luck, but I could see them coming from a mile away the way he constructed the team. The core is a bunch of amazing, but expensive injury prone veterans. Yes, he had to take risks to win in the AL East, but closing your eyes and throwing a hail mary is not the way to go.

I'd say you were fighting the straw man here, but I don't even see that in this thread.

As much as the glorification of JP as a new sabermetric GM was undeserved, so too is his current vilification. As a Blue Jay fan, I wouldn't rate as him more than middling as a GM. Unfortunately, that's largely my opinion of Ash, too. A great move followed by a great weakness. But that's not someone you turf aside callously. If his drafting strategy has changed for the better with Thigpen and Synder, great. If it hasn't, so long.

My own guess, and I'm seeing articles on it on The Hardball Times these days, too, is that riskier players are now undervalued. The Jays are hurt substantially by Ryan's injury, but the knock on him at the time of the deal was that he was inexperienced, not injury-prone.

Wow, there are so many things wring with a baseball executive lying to the media without a compelling reason (and I can't think of a compelling reason in baseball unless it was like protecting someone's privacy, reputation, family, or something like that).

First of all, lying in general to the public without a sufficiently compelling reason is NEVER a good thing (i.e., always a bad thing). I hate to bring up "the children," but is that the kind of example we want to set for them?

Equally (or additionally) importantly is that baseball is an entertainment industry which is paid for by the fans/public. That public and those fans rely on the media for information about their passion. If those in baseball are "allowed" to lie to the media about fairly inconsequential things like a player injury in spring training (or really about virtually anything), the there can be no trust in the media by the fans and that aspect of the game becomes a travesty. Millions of fans rely on information from the teams/media as part of their enjoyment and experience of the game. That enjoyment of the game and trust in the media and the spokerpersons for baseball is what pays the players's salaries and puts money in the owners' pockets.

I cannot see ANY justification for this, and personally with all the lying (and cheating) that our politicians do, when I see ANYONE lie to the public about just about anything, it makes my stomach turn. If you can't tell the truth, just keep your mouth shut.

Of course, I have thought that J.P. was a moron before this. This just solidifies my opinion.

Wow.

I can't believe ANYONE thinks he has an obligation to the media over his obligation to the team and the players.

We can argue about whether he has an obligationto talk to the media, but there is an expectation that if he does choose to talk, he's going to be honest.

He did the right thing

What, the lying or the coming clean? What did he gain by bullshiatting about Ryan's injury? Please explain how what he did was right.

The dude got himself hired by spouting off lies

i've never heard this, can you elaborate?

I can: he is obsessed with a statement Ricciardi made when hired, and keeps misrepresenting it. Ricciardi basically said he could save the owners money while being competitive, and he acts as if Ricciardi said that at no point in the next fifty years would the team's payroll rise.

If this ####### hadn't fraudulently misrepresented the nature of Ryan's injury, I wouldn't have paid top dollar for him at my fantasy league's auction,

You're just an idiot then. Fraudulent injury or real injury, the man wasn't doing well in Spring Training. If he's struggling in Spring Training and it's announced he has an injury (let's assume that's all we know), why the hell would you consider paying "top dollar" for him in a fantasy league auction?

This just goes to show that fantasy sports are retarded.

I think it's important to be honest about this kind of stuff for reasons other than betting. It's important to me as a fan to know that my team is being straight with me.

Returning to this point from above, I disagree in part.

A GM's primary responsibility is to put a winning team on the field within the constraints of the organization. If a team decides that maintaining an honest and up-front relationship with the fans and local media is a desired value, whether related to ethics, finances, or some other reason, that's of course defensible. But in light of that responsibility, in my view it's also defensible to conceal or mislead about the nature or scope of team injuries to the extent that it generates a possible strategic advantage for the team.

Without getting all Rule 4.1(a), there are of course ways that this can get problematic, and a part of me gets frustrated when I don't know the full story on my team. But I'd prefer to sacrifice that personal right to knowledge -- which in any cases is rather limited anyway -- so as to give the GM as much leverage possible to improve the quality of the team on the field.

But I'd prefer to sacrifice that personal right to knowledge -- which in any cases is rather limited anyway -- so as to give the GM as much leverage possible to improve the quality of the team on the field.

Well, that's fine, but how exactly did lying about Ryan's injury help the Jays on the field? As it stands, there is a possibility that more than just lying about the nature of the injury, they trotted Ryan out there to begin the season knowing that he had worse problems than they were letting on. I think that when a GM is going to get into the disinformation business (and then fess up and get out of it) there had better be a compelling case for it. What is it here? The "protect Ryan from the press" argument seems thinner than my hair at this point.

Lying about Ryan's injury was sleazy and stupid, but not exactly a crime against humanity.

Well, that's fine, but how exactly did lying about Ryan's injury help the Jays on the field?

Better leverage to trade for a reliever.

This could be fun! Anyone else have any other theories?

- He's a liar? I've found when people lie for no good reason, that means they just lie an awful lot.

- Worrying about his job? He's not lying about his baseball team for the team's sake but his own. He's afraid that the injury might turn into something big and make him look bad. But if he lies about it, and the problem goes away, he's safe. It's like William H. Macy in Fargo.

My own guess, and I'm seeing articles on it on The Hardball Times these days, too, is that riskier players are now undervalued. The Jays are hurt substantially by Ryan's injury, but the knock on him at the time of the deal was that he was inexperienced, not injury-prone.

Yeah, but the risky-players-are-undervalued theory means you should be able to sign risks at a discount. Was Ryan's contract really a discount?

If this ####### hadn't fraudulently misrepresented the nature of Ryan's injury, I wouldn't have paid top dollar for him at my fantasy league's auction

J. P.'s a fraud you pooped your plans?

Best Regards,

Dag

- Worrying about his job? He's not lying about his baseball team for the team's sake but his own. He's afraid that the injury might turn into something big and make him look bad. But if he lies about it, and the problem goes away, he's safe. It's like William H. Macy in Fargo.

Exactly. JP lied because he is more of a self-lobbyist who says he's a good GM than actually being one. He also probably lied because it would negatively effect ticket sales, and perhaps player's morale (not sure if the players knew the actual injury, probably not, except for the trainers, JP, GIbbons, and Ryan. But he's tried to keep together good clubhouse guys who aren't distractions or poor morale and your all-star closer that is a team leader going down would hurt their confidence, especially since its a relatively young team.

BTW Danny I guess you can't count because the most I posted was twice in a row but your too busy being an ass online.

BTW Danny I guess you can't count because the most I posted was twice in a row but your too busy being an ass online.

What about under your other usernames? Under El Laberinto de Overbay you must have posted 4 or 5 times in a row a couple times.

The Jays aren't 'a relatively young team', according to baseball reference, they're pretty much average. The only player on the team that I'd call young or inexperienced is Lind, and he was only called up once Johnson was hurt.

I don't really care about why JP lied, what suprises me is that he confessed to lying about an injury. By confessing to covering up the injury in order to protect Ryan from the media, JP makes himself and Ryan look bad.

What about under your other usernames? Under El Laberinto de Overbay you must have posted 4 or 5 times in a row a couple times.

That was a long long time ago. If you seriously care about some random person posting too many times on the internet and you remember their past name and bring up cases from months ago, I think you have to give your head a shake.

If you seriously care about some random person posting too many times on the internet and you remember their past name and bring up cases from months ago, I think you have to give your head a shake.

Not really. When somebody continually floods a site that I usually enjoy reading, and then changes their username and keeps doing it, and then changes it a third time and keeps doing it, it's pretty easy to keep track of. I don't devote any effort to it or anything.

Ricciardi basically said he could save the owners money while being competitive, and he acts as if Ricciardi said that at no point in the next fifty years would the team's payroll rise.

I thought he said he could turn the Jay's into winners while saving money. No?

I can't believe ANYONE thinks he has an obligation to the media over his obligation to the team and the players.

In regards to my post, I wasn't making a moral judgement about Ricciardi's lying. But when you lie to the public about injuries, you tend to diminish your credibility on such matters. Whether or not this (Machiavelli?) strategy is a "good" thing is a separate discussion.

Heh, wonder what Tim Johnson thinks of this.

Rear Admiral wins the thread.

Not a word yet about gambling? In the NFL, fudging injury reports is verboten, IIRC.

I can: he is obsessed with a statement Ricciardi made when hired, and keeps misrepresenting it. Ricciardi basically said he could save the owners money while being competitive, and he acts as if Ricciardi said that at no point in the next fifty years would the team's payroll rise.

Well he did lie, because they aren't competitive.

May 5 article: "If you look at every game, our pitching has been good," [Riccardi] said

May 5 pitching line, Roy Halladay:
IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
5.1 12 9 9 2 3 0 3.59

So now he's a liar AND a jinx!

Well, Tomo Okha, A.J. Burnett, Gustavo Chacin, and Victor Zambrano would have had something to say about that statement anyhow.

Yeah, but the risky-players-are-undervalued theory means you should be able to sign risks at a discount. Was Ryan's contract really a discount?

It was right in my original post, which, ironically, you quoted. At the time fo the signing, Ryan wasn't seen as an injury risk.

That public and those fans rely on the media for information about their passion. If those in baseball are "allowed" to lie to the media about fairly inconsequential things like a player injury in spring training (or really about virtually anything), the there can be no trust in the media by the fans and that aspect of the game becomes a travesty.

As a Pirates fan, I can tell you that it is perfectly possible to enjoy baseball without believing a single word that is delivered by the organization. I'm honestly more surprised these days when something that David Littlefield says is true rather than when it turns out to be lie. In fact, I'm pleased merely when he puts apparent effort into the lies. Sometimes he just mails it in, saying something that is so obviously untrue that he's going through the motions.

As a fan, you just learn to orthogonalize your feelings for the management and your feelings for the team. I can think that David Littlefield eats live babies while at the same time enjoying watching the Pirates in their valiant (although ultimately futile) annual attempt to get to .500.