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Thursday, December 27, 2007

Rich Lederer : 30 Rock

Greetings from Schoharie! Next stop Cooperstown! (Seriously)

For those first seven seasons, Raines and Schmidt were clearly the two best players in the NL. Raines was every bit as good as Henderson was in those years. He led the league in Win Shares in 1984, 1985, and 1986. Just think what his résumé would look like had he won three consecutive MVP awards!

Best Regards


The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: December 27, 2007 at 12:08 PM | 26 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: awards, expos, hall of fame, history, white sox, yankees

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   1. 1k5v3L Posted: December 27, 2007 at 12:52 PM (#2654181)
I wonder how good Vince Coleman would've been had he not become lunch meat for the tarp machine.
   2. Eugene Freedman Posted: December 27, 2007 at 12:55 PM (#2654183)
I wrote this on Rob Neyer's message board:

I think Raines should be in. I also think Dwight Evans, Ted Simmons, Lou Whitaker, Alan Trammell, Bert Blyleven, and Goose Gossage should be in. I'm not sure which is a better fate. Getting tossed aside in year #1 like Evans, who was better than Rice (maybe in this year), Simmons, who was the near equal to Gary Carter (in), Whitaker, near equal to Sandberg (in), or being strung along and maybe never get in after 15 years of rising and falling on the ballots like Trammell (better than half of the HOF shortstops), Blyleven, equal career value without the ooohs and aahs of Nolan Ryan (in), and Gossage, better than Sutter (in) and equal to Fingers (in).

Granted Blyleven's candidacy has taken on some incredible support in the sabermetric community that has even won over a handful of voters, but it's like tilting at windmills. Now, we're going to be chasing our tails for 15 years for Raines as well. Great fun awaits!!!! Meanwile, Raines will be behind Rice and Dawson on the ballot until they fall off or are elected, when he was superior to both. I'd almost rather he just fall off and join Simmons in the dustbin of should have beens so we can stop having these debates for the next 15 years.
   3. JustMe Posted: December 27, 2007 at 03:08 PM (#2654249)
Hijack, but another Raines thread? Really?

I was looking at Kenny Lofton's BB-Ref page. Do you think he'll get any hall consideration? He's a CF who will have 2500 hits next year, over 600 SB's (active leader by a big margin), .300 BA (.299 so it's a crapshoot if he'll finish above or below), 4 GG's, and 6 time all star (4 as starter).

He has 2 hall of famers on his b-ref top 10 plus Raines and Griffey.

He also played his entire career during the 'steroid era'. (Are there a set span of years yet?) I could see that boosting his vote total along with other non-power speedsters. He played in 11 postseasons. He was on 2 league champions.

I purposely didn't use more effective stats to mimic the "logic" of a sportswriter. Oh, and I still don't care about the old boy's club in Cooperstown. Really, I don't.
   4. BeanoCook Posted: December 27, 2007 at 05:03 PM (#2654349)
Hijack, but another Raines thread? Really?

Eugene Freedman is islamic? Really?
   5. JustMe Posted: December 27, 2007 at 08:00 PM (#2654645)
I guess no one cares. Maybe I'll write something to get a response.

Hey guys. Do you think Barry Bonds does 'roids? I do.

George Bush is a terrible president and should be put on trial.

Global Warming is a myth. So is gravity.

I'm an atheist. You should change your lifelong beliefs and believe what I believe.
   6. JustMe Posted: December 27, 2007 at 08:04 PM (#2654651)
Mike Piazza is gay. So is Roberto Alomar.

I think statistical analysis is superior to traditional scouting.

Joe Morgan is an idiot who thinks Billy Bean wrote Moneyball.

It is obvious Mark McGwire, Jason Giambi, Barry Bonds, and Roger Clemens did steroids by the shape of their heads (klingon face.)
   7. MM1f Posted: December 27, 2007 at 08:30 PM (#2654673)
Hm. I would guess the reason no one is responding is that it is really hard to say much about the idea of Lofton for the Hall. People greatly prefer to post defintively yes or no posts.

It is an interesting idea. He was briefly a star in the 90s but lost that luster after being traded to Atlanta, where he also got a bad reputation for being a me-first player.

He has however had a hell of a steady late-career surge, even if he is a guy I would instinctively say doesn't "feel" like a HOFer. The me-first image he had early in the career will hurt as will the team bouncing of his late career
   8. Cowboy Popup Posted: December 27, 2007 at 09:04 PM (#2654713)
I was looking at Kenny Lofton's BB-Ref page. Do you think he'll get any hall consideration? He's a CF who will have 2500 hits next year, over 600 SB's (active leader by a big margin), .300 BA (.299 so it's a crapshoot if he'll finish above or below), 4 GG's, and 6 time all star (4 as starter).

Unless he gets a huge non-steroids bonus, I would say no. Also, I don't think he finishes above .299 because if he hits .300, he's coming back to play again. Lofton is not better then Bernie or Edmonds and is probably closer to, but clearly better than Steve Finley. He was never all that durable and only put up really good rate stats (for a great defensive CFer) three times (93, 94, 97). He was a great flycatcher, so he's got to get a pretty big bonus there, but I don't think there's enough offense or peak to make him much of serious candidate.

FWIW, I think we had this conversation last year, but I agree, it's more interesting then the other questions you posed.
   9. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: December 27, 2007 at 09:25 PM (#2654732)
Lofton is a fringe candidate at best, and his constant switching of teams for the last half of his career will be enough to stop him.
   10. JustMe Posted: December 27, 2007 at 09:31 PM (#2654737)
Who do you see as the borderline players still active?

Posada comes to mind.
   11. Cowboy Popup Posted: December 27, 2007 at 09:38 PM (#2654742)
Who do you see as the borderline players still active?

Wagner? Tejada? Edmonds. Kent has got to be in at this point.
   12. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: December 27, 2007 at 09:44 PM (#2654748)
Kent has enough of a reputation as a jerk and a poor fielder to still be undecided, methinks. But close to in.

Posada and Tejada are definitely borderline. Edmonds probably not in, though I probably think he is closer than the media thinks.
   13. Honkie Kong Posted: December 27, 2007 at 09:56 PM (#2654760)
Kent has to be in. BBWAA usually tends to be dazzled by offensive numbers, and even they considered fielding, think Kent has enough to skate on by. You think they are going to consider Manny's "fielding" when they vote for him?

Other borderliners. Schilling, Mussina, Smoltz, Andruw.

Sheffield should be a lock IMO, but I think mainstream may consider him borderline.
   14. The Original SJ Posted: December 27, 2007 at 10:48 PM (#2654793)
Schilling is in. they are going to love the sock and the 3 titles.

Moose is out, they aren't going to remember how good he was early in his career in the playoffs.

Smoltz is in.

Andruw has a lot of career left.
   15. Booey Posted: December 28, 2007 at 12:30 AM (#2654849)
Plank, I'll bite. :)

Lofton isn't particularly close to being a HOFer, but he did appear to be on that course for a half decade or so in the mid '90's. Since then he's just been an above average journeyman. Still, he's got some numbers that will cause at least a little discussion when he becomes eligible (think Harold Baines: several articles posing the question about whether or not he's worthy, but few actual votes).

I think Barry Bonds does 'roids, too. Him and half the other players in MLB over the last 20 years.

Bush is a terrible president, but suggesting he be put on trial is ridiculous.

Global warming should be taken more seriously. Gravity too, for that matter.

It's cool that you're atheist. Unfortunately, too many of the atheists I know actually DO seem to agree with your follow up statement. But so do the religious people, so we're back to square one. If you ask me, I think that attitude is simply basic human nature. From my experiance, what church you do (or don't) attend doesn't seem to make any difference.

Mike Piazza isn't gay. He married a chick (a hot one, too!). Roberto Alomar easily could be. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

I agree that statistical analysis is more valuable than traditional scouting.

Joe Morgan IS an idiot, and he probably does believe that Billy Beane wrote Moneyball.

McGwire, Bonds, and Giambi's faces certainly do look like they've been plunging needles into their a$$es one too many times, especially when you compare later photos with their early years. Not sure about Clemens (based solely on appearance, I mean). He's had no neck and a fat head his entire career.

Did I miss anything?
   16. Tuque Posted: December 28, 2007 at 12:50 AM (#2654852)
30 Rock is such a good show.

I wish this thread were about the show instead.
   17. Anthony Giacalone Posted: December 28, 2007 at 03:18 AM (#2654920)
When Raines was with the White Sox, my friends and I had a drinking game that involved having to chug your beer whenever someone said "30." The origins of the game are rather foolish, but needless to say that Raines was always a favorite of ours. "Now batting, 30, Tim Raines!"
   18. Dag Nabbit at Posted: December 28, 2007 at 03:26 AM (#2654926)

Are you on vacation or something? I've been trying to contact you for a while to let you know I got a room in Cleveland for SABR-whatever-number-it-is.
   19. Anthony Giacalone Posted: December 28, 2007 at 03:43 AM (#2654946)
Sorry, Chris. I've been running around constantly for the last week due to Xmas shopping, house guests, Christmas and now we are in Chicago until Sunday. Thanks for getting a room. I'm looking forward to it, as always.
   20. JustMe Posted: December 28, 2007 at 04:18 AM (#2654977)
I wonder if fading slowly and tagging extra years of league average production is detrimental to a HOF candidacy. It sounds ridiculous, but looking at Mussina, Raines, etc. it seems to be the case. Fringe players should go the Ripken route and have a 'farewell tour' so that writers and the public remember how good they were.

I wonder if staying on one or two teams would also increase you chances of Cooperstown. That would be tough to conclude anything due to sample sizes and other factors leading to a player staying with one team.

I think Lederer's campaign to right the injustices of HOF voting is great, he should also start working on current players who project to be borderline to make his job easier in 5-7 years.

But of course I still don't care about the GOP factory in upstate NY.
   21. Dag Nabbit at Posted: December 28, 2007 at 04:19 AM (#2654980)
and now we are in Chicago until Sunday.

You'll be here for tommorrow's weather? Lucky you. Might want to reconsider February's move.
   22. Every Inge Counts Posted: December 28, 2007 at 05:04 AM (#2655011)
By the end of its run 30 Rock will be the best sitcom ever on TV. Discuss. Or 30 Rock will be what Arrested Development should have been (a great sitcom that was backed by its company).
   23. JustMe Posted: December 28, 2007 at 06:22 AM (#2655049)
An orgy with the Golden Girls would be awkward at first but fun overall. Discuss.
   24. Phil Coorey. Posted: December 28, 2007 at 08:21 AM (#2655063)
Australia has not seen or heard of 30 Rock yet - jesus.
   25. Anthony Giacalone Posted: December 28, 2007 at 03:33 PM (#2655172)
I think that 30 Rock is easily the best sitcom on TV right now. It's satirical but also just silly enough to take the preachiness off. It's genius!
   26. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 28, 2007 at 03:55 PM (#2655192)
I love Tim Raines' HoF case so much I want to take it behind the middle school and get it pregnant.

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