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Saturday, February 11, 2023

Roberto Clemente book removed from Florida public schools

A book about late Afro-Puerto Rican MLB legend Roberto Clemente can’t be found in the shelves of public school libraries in Florida’s Duval County these days.

“Roberto Clemente: Pride of the Pittsburgh Pirates” by Jonah Winter and Raúl Colón — and other books about Latino figures such as the late Afro-Cuban salsa singer Celia Cruz and Justice Sonia Sotomayor — are among the more than 1 million titles that have been “covered or stored and paused for student use” at the Duval County Public Schools District, according to Chief Academic Officer Paula Renfro.

School officials are in the process of determining if such books comply with state laws and can be included in school libraries.

Welp.

Hombre Brotani Posted: February 11, 2023 at 04:43 AM | 570 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: books, race, roberto clemente, wtf

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   1. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 11, 2023 at 11:25 AM (#6116500)
Welp.
Indeed, thanks for the OT-P trigger warning.
   2. i don't vibrate on the frequency of the 57i66135 Posted: February 11, 2023 at 12:39 PM (#6116503)
quick update to the story:

"my struggle" has been rewritten as a picture book by ben shapiro, and will be required reading for all elementary schoolers in florida.
   3. The Duke Posted: February 11, 2023 at 12:49 PM (#6116504)
There's nothing wrong with limiting access to controversial topics for children before high school, but the net will inevitably make mistakes. As long as there is a process to rectify errors, it should be fine. It's the reason we have G, PG, R, NC-17, X ratings for movies. Of course, the topics which are considered adult (historically sex/violence) has now been expanded to race and gender issues. And, of course, that's what creates a lot of the angst. I've never understood why people want children under high school age to be exposed to these kind of controversial things. Isn't learning English, math, basic history, geography etx and learning how to get along with others enough of a goal in the early years ?

I come from a reasonably strict background. My parents were teetotalers, dragged us to church and refused to let me see R rated movies until my senior year and made me do a lot of sports and social activities. It seemed incredibly restrictive compared to my peers but I'm glad they did it now.

   4. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 11, 2023 at 01:02 PM (#6116506)
Ted Frank's take makes sense:
the library is being ridiculous on purpose to try to make a statute that doesn’t reach this book look bad.
To be fair, it's the school district of the Democrat-leaning county that approved this stunt.

EDIT: Also Ted Frank:
Expect more media hits pretending that Florida anti-grooming and anti-bigotry in education laws affect 32-page biographies of Roberto Clemente and similarly anodyne books.
   5. JJ1986 Posted: February 11, 2023 at 01:03 PM (#6116507)
I've never understood why people want children under high school age to be exposed to these kind of controversial things.
The fact that there is racism should not be a controversial thing.
   6. Itchy Row Posted: February 11, 2023 at 01:05 PM (#6116508)
It would be better if we just removed Florida.
   7. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 11, 2023 at 01:24 PM (#6116509)
It would be better if we just removed Florida.

Preferably by sawing it off and letting it float out into the Atlantic. It can then declare itself the Peoples Republic of DeSantisgrad and live happily ever.
   8. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 11, 2023 at 01:54 PM (#6116511)
Preferably by sawing it off and letting it float out into the Atlantic. It can then declare itself the Peoples Republic of DeSantisgrad and live happily ever.
Alas, Andy, that ship sailed long ago, just not in the way you now hope. (smile)

RDS will declare his POTUS candidacy sometime between June and August so you, the even further-left geniuses here, and very-online MAGA types might wish to prepare by stocking up on copium.
   9. John Northey Posted: February 11, 2023 at 02:05 PM (#6116512)
Florida has gone insane. It was already in crazy land, but now is so far down the 1930's Germany path I fear what we will see going forward.

It is sad as I used to enjoy going there - my parents used to go there in the winter and many of their friends there seemed like good people, but given many voted for that hateful monster I seriously wonder.

I know a few transgender people, including a child under 10, and the idea that they'd be forced to detransition by government mandate if they were American scares the crap out of me. So much for the party of 'family' and 'letting parents decide what is best for their child'. So much for 'small government'. I also know many who are homosexual and am related to a few (I refuse to out anyone) - they too are scared to death of going to the USA now given the bizarre hateful laws being passed. Book banning is sadly the least of the crimes being done by government down there, when that should be the worst one. If DeSantis takes over in 2024 I fear what comes next - I expect a flood of refugees to be coming across the US-Canada border and a war to be coming shortly afterwards. What a mess. I just hope saner heads prevail down there but after 2016 and the lack of charges post 2020 I fear what comes next.
   10. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 11, 2023 at 02:18 PM (#6116515)
Alas, Andy, that ship sailed long ago, just not in the way you now hope. (smile)

I'm slightly surprised that you didn't catch my pilfering of Barry Goldwater's original proposal, which was to saw off the entire Eastern Seaboard.

RDS will declare his POTUS candidacy sometime between June and August so you, the even further-left geniuses here, and very-online MAGA types might wish to prepare by stocking up on copium.

Okay, let's assume for sake of argument that Trump outwears his welcome in the GOP and DeSantis wins the nomination. Would you like to reprise our 2016 wager? Even odds, Biden (me) vs DeSantis (you), and the usual caveat about both Biden and DeSantis having to be on the ballot come Election Day. All bets off if Biden gets replaced by another Democrat, because that gets us too far into the Unknown.

As it now stands, I'm up 1000 Washingtons from 2020 and down a pair of Clyde's dinners from 2016, so here's a chance for you (and Clapper, if he wishes) to take advantage of my blind partisan wishcasting. Easiest dinner you'll ever win.
   11. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 11, 2023 at 02:24 PM (#6116516)
Okay, let's assume for sake of argument that Trump outwears his welcome in the GOP and DeSantis wins the nomination. Would you like to reprise our 2016 wager? Even odds, Biden (me) vs DeSantis (you), and the usual caveat about both Biden and DeSantis having to be on the ballot come Election Day. All bets off if Biden gets replaced by another Democrat, because that gets us too far into the Unknown.

As it now stands, I'm up 1000 Washingtons from 2020 and down a pair of Clyde's dinners from 2016, so here's a chance for you (and Clapper, if he wishes) to take advantage of my blind partisan wishcasting. Easiest dinner you'll ever win.
Absolutely. Count me in.

Also, I have Ray's contact info if you need to improve your luck. (smile)

Also also, if RDS wins, how many folks here promise to declare themselves refugees and storm the Canadian border? Let's get a headcount.
   12. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 11, 2023 at 02:36 PM (#6116517)
Ted Frank's take makes sense:


Is the book banned or not? If it is, and it "just has to go through the legal process to prove the bounds of the statute were overstepped", then #### off with your dancing monkeyism.


I've never understood why people want children under high school age to be exposed to these kind of controversial things.


I believe you.
   13. Mayor Blomberg Posted: February 11, 2023 at 02:43 PM (#6116518)
To be fair, it's the school district of the Democrat-leaning county that approved this stunt.

Total horseshit as a quick trip to Wikipedia would show. Why am I not surprised.
   14. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 11, 2023 at 02:52 PM (#6116519)
Florida has gone insane. It was already in crazy land, but now is so far down the 1930's Germany path I fear what we will see going forward.

It is sad as I used to enjoy going there - my parents used to go there in the winter and many of their friends there seemed like good people, but given many voted for that hateful monster I seriously wonder.

I know a few transgender people, including a child under 10, and the idea that they'd be forced to detransition by government mandate if they were American scares the crap out of me. So much for the party of 'family' and 'letting parents decide what is best for their child'. So much for 'small government'. I also know many who are homosexual and am related to a few (I refuse to out anyone) - they too are scared to death of going to the USA now given the bizarre hateful laws being passed. Book banning is sadly the least of the crimes being done by government down there, when that should be the worst one. If DeSantis takes over in 2024 I fear what comes next - I expect a flood of refugees to be coming across the US-Canada border and a war to be coming shortly afterwards. What a mess. I just hope saner heads prevail down there but after 2016 and the lack of charges post 2020 I fear what comes next.


Yes, we can see how horrible Florida is by the fact that 550,000 people moved there in 2021, and another 320,000 in 2022. Half the Democratic congressional caucus vacationed there during the pandemic to avoid the moronic policies in the Blue states.

The idea that NOT allowing the drugging and amputation of perfectly physically healthy minor children makes you similar to the Nazis is batshit insanity. The best science before the recent insanity was that 90% of children with gender dysphoria self-resolve by 18 with no medical intervention. 80% of them turned out to be gay.

   15. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 11, 2023 at 02:54 PM (#6116520)
Total horseshit as a quick trip to Wikipedia would show. Why am I not surprised.
As of the end of last year, there were *still* more registered Democrats than Republicans in Duval. (RDS hasn't yet turned every county red.) Maybe your problem is that, in last year's election, Republicans had better turnout in the county?
   16. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 11, 2023 at 02:59 PM (#6116521)
The book isn’t ‘banned’ - a single county in Florida has it under review, a process that should have taken about two minutes for a 32-page children’s book. As noted above, it appears that school officials are trying to discredit efforts to rein in their unlimited discretion by broadly misinterpreting the state’s requirements. Or perhaps it’s just a bureaucratic ploy to enlarge the workforce in response to the state mandate?
   17. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 11, 2023 at 03:04 PM (#6116522)
16. You might be right. You also might be wrong.


edit...there's a link to 176 books that were removed, and a lot, after review, were returned to the libraries. I wonder which ones still haven't been? How can a book about Roberto ####### Clemente be questioned?
   18. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 11, 2023 at 03:09 PM (#6116523)
Even odds, Biden (me) vs DeSantis (you), and the usual caveat about both Biden and DeSantis having to be on the ballot come Election Day. All bets off if Biden gets replaced by another Democrat, because that gets us too far into the Unknown.
Not much confidence in Joe even making it to the general? I guess that means you think he has less chance than Hillary did in 2016? You may be on to something.
   19. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 11, 2023 at 03:22 PM (#6116525)
Absolutely. Count me in.

Noted and bookmarked.

Also, I have Ray's contact info if you need to improve your luck. (smile)

I've got that contact info, but I think he learned his lesson after 2020. OTOH might take you up on a GOP primary wager, since I think he's still sold on Trump's kavorka.

--------------

Not much confidence in Joe even making it to the general? I guess that means you think he has less chance than Hillary did in 2016? You may be on to something.

So does this mean that you're also on? The contingencies apply for both Biden and DeSantis.

Of course if Trump turns out to be the nominee vs. Biden, I'm sure both of you will be glad to try for a second dinner. From everything I've heard coming out of Mar-a-lago, TFG is totally invincible, unbeatable, and still irresistible to every Hot Babe in Leisure World.
   20. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: February 11, 2023 at 03:31 PM (#6116526)
The idea that NOT allowing the drugging and amputation of perfectly physically healthy minor children makes you similar to the Nazis is batshit insanity. The best science before the recent insanity was that 90% of children with gender dysphoria self-resolve by 18 with no medical intervention. 80% of them turned out to be gay.


Yes, yes, think of the poor priests who will be missing out on all of those underage genitals.
   21. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 11, 2023 at 03:35 PM (#6116527)
Yes, yes, think of the poor priests who will be missing out on all of those underage genitals.

At least those kids kept their genitals. That's more than you're willing to allow them.
   22. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: February 11, 2023 at 03:41 PM (#6116528)
I'm not demanding kids have their genitals lopped off.

I'm saying it's not my place to have a say in what a family privately decides when it comes to this issue. Nor is it yours, just because you're weirded out by it.
   23. gehrig97 Posted: February 11, 2023 at 03:49 PM (#6116529)
Clemente called out racism where he saw it--so yeah, just another woke loser. Kids under the age of 18 shouldn't be subjected to his grooming.
   24. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 11, 2023 at 03:50 PM (#6116530)
I'm saying it's not my place to have a say in what a family privately decides when it comes to this issue. Nor is it yours, just because you're weirded out by it.
Nice try. The activists are also perfectly fine if the parents are excluded from the decision-making process involving their underage child.
   25. Addie Joss Posted: February 11, 2023 at 03:55 PM (#6116532)
Sad to see these "dangerous" books taken off the shelves - even if only temporarily - to see if they pass muster by a crowd of semi-Nazi yahoos. Why can't librarians be permitted to just do their jobs without interference as has mostly been the case for the last hundred years? Will some little Hispanic kid in Florida be harmed forever for reading about the great Clemente?
The people who support this are fascist trash!
   26. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 11, 2023 at 03:55 PM (#6116533)
So does this mean that you're also on? The contingencies apply for both Biden and DeSantis.
Well, with those contingencies, there’s really no need to address the matter until after the conventions.
   27. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: February 11, 2023 at 03:56 PM (#6116534)
Good to know that if the parent is aware and OK with the treatments, you think it's wrong for government to step in and try to obstruct those treatments.
   28. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 11, 2023 at 04:01 PM (#6116535)
The idea that NOT allowing the drugging and amputation of perfectly physically healthy minor children makes you similar to the Nazis is batshit insanity.
If anything, snapper, Nazi doctors kept themselves busy sterilizing (and later euthanizing) perfectly physically healthy minor children.
   29. Hombre Brotani Posted: February 11, 2023 at 04:02 PM (#6116537)
Indeed, thanks for the OT-P trigger warning.
A book about Roberto Clemente got pulled for "review." If you want to defend the policy, that's up to you.
   30. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 11, 2023 at 04:06 PM (#6116538)
If you want to defend the policy, that's up to you.



He just doesn't like all the fuss.
   31. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 11, 2023 at 04:07 PM (#6116539)
Good to know that if the parent is aware and OK with the treatments, you think it's wrong for government to step in and try to obstruct those treatments.
Nope, a 16-year old's brain isn't sufficiently developed to possess the agency to give consent to treatments that may be irreversible.
   32. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 11, 2023 at 04:07 PM (#6116540)
Good to know that if the parent is aware and OK with the treatments, you think it's wrong for government to step in and try to obstruct those treatments.
Same for lobotomies? A relatively small number of doctors conned parents on that one, too.
   33. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 11, 2023 at 04:12 PM (#6116542)
A book about Roberto Clemente got pulled for "review." If you want to defend the policy, that's up to you.
Not only do we defend the policy, we mock your half-baked pearl clutching.
   34. Hombre Brotani Posted: February 11, 2023 at 04:17 PM (#6116543)
Not only do we defend the policy, we mock your half-baked pearl clutching.
If only "we" would defend a book about Roberto Clemente the way "we" defend a Jefferson Davis statue.
   35. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 11, 2023 at 04:24 PM (#6116545)
JE's cool with Nazis. It's the Palestinians that go up his ass (figuratively).
   36. bookbook Posted: February 11, 2023 at 05:21 PM (#6116549)
“The idea that NOT allowing the drugging and amputation of perfectly physically healthy minor children makes you similar to the Nazis is batshit insanity. The best science before the recent insanity was that 90% of children with gender dysphoria self-resolve by 18 with no medical intervention.“

What an excellent job of fearmongering. Vanishingly few minors have gender-reassignment surgery: and those few have worked extensively with doctors and parents to make sure they are not among the 90% of cases that you claim “self-resolve.” What the GOP culture warriors are trying hard to do is to “other” minors all along the spectrum and block minors from taking medications their doctors and families determine is right for them.

Books are very different than movies: rating books R, and restricting access is generally a bad idea. It’s a terrible idea when you’re keeping kids from learning US history in order to protect oversensitive white people from knowing that slavery and colonization is part of our history.
   37. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 11, 2023 at 05:42 PM (#6116550)
Again, the headline is highly misleading - this is the librarians in a single county misinterpreting the law, possibly deliberately. Florida has 67 counties, hundreds of cities & towns, and countless libraries, but only Duval County (Jacksonville) is reported to be reviewing the Clemente book or similar works. Seems like any outrage should be directed there, rather than at the state.
   38. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 11, 2023 at 05:48 PM (#6116551)
Yes. Who in Tallahassee knew that Floridians would misinterpret that law? This could not have been foreseen!
   39. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 11, 2023 at 05:51 PM (#6116552)
Floridians overwhelmingly seem to have NOT misinterpreted the law. Why do you want to pretend otherwise, while seemingly giving a pass to those who got it wrong? How about some consequences for the Duval County ‘book banners’?
   40. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 11, 2023 at 05:58 PM (#6116553)
If I ran an AP African American course (or a general American History course, for that matter), I'd catch it from enough snowflakes on all sides to cover Mt. Fuji. I'd be assigning everything from The 1619 Project to The Birth of a Nation, with only one preliminary trigger warning before the course began----which would be "Consider yourself warned about the existence of nasty people and nasty events that have happened ever since our country began. In the coming months, you will be exposed to a lot of them." There are a zillion contradictory opinions about what constitutes reality, and if students don't hear all those opinions, they're only going to be half educated. We have way too many half-educated students as it is.


This would be my first assigned book, just to get people thinking.

P. S. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be teaching the positive things, but then few people seem to mind about that.
   41. Tony S Posted: February 11, 2023 at 06:02 PM (#6116554)
Why can't librarians be permitted to just do their jobs without interference as has mostly been the case for the last hundred years?


Small government, bro.

But hey, the Streisand effect is a thing.
   42. John Reynard Posted: February 11, 2023 at 06:10 PM (#6116555)
Also also, if RDS wins, how many folks here promise to declare themselves refugees and storm the Canadian border? Let's get a headcount.


While I'll have grave concerns for the trajectory of the USA if DeSantis is elected President, I'm not leaving. Nazi Germany was plausible to flee from. America going full fasch is an existential threat to the hominid genus. So, I'll be staying to be part of the opposition, even if that leads to dire consequences. I already had my front window shot in from running for state legislature in the then R+38 district in 2012. I'm not going to run.

If America is so terrible that people have to do bizarre things to "make it great again" and are mad that America isn't doing those things, why don't they voluntarily move to somewhere with appropriate politics, like Russia, Hungary, or whatever.

When DeSantis' state is blocking Clemente's book....when Clemente is one of the examples held up of a "good Afro-latino", you're really not being subtle anymore.
   43. The Duke Posted: February 11, 2023 at 06:13 PM (#6116556)
36. Really? How is rating movies really any different substantively. It's conceptually the same thing. Movie theatres are dead now but are you ok with them simply letting a 10 year old walk into an X rated movie. Society used to be largely against that - are you for it now? What people object to is not the banning of material for minors BUT what material is being banned and then they conflate the two issues. Are you saying minors shouldn't be kept away from anything? A very large majority were ok with the sex and violence limitations for many years. But there is a big disagreement over gender and race. I'll be interested to see where things land. As Churchill once said "I know history will treat me well because I am going to write it". This argument is about who gets to tell the story and which people get to hear it. If you want to tell a college freshman that white peoples are racist and black people cant survive without the govt looking after them, have at it. But minors should not be hearing that. Same with all the gender nonsense.

Who's keeping kids from learning about slavery causing the civil war? Send me a link to current textbook that talks about the civil war and forgets to mention slavery. Colonization ? Who did we colonize? The Brits colonized the world: the US, Canada, large parts of the Caribbean, Asia, Africa. So did Belgium, Portugal, and France and the Netherlands. But, of course, you know that. At least get your terms right unless you mean we were victims of British colonization.

As for Florida (and a Georgia and Texas), they are by far the fastest growing states attracting people and talent from all over the country while the traditional blue states bleed people like crazy. Just look at the census - people have been voting with their feet for decades. It's all there in black and white. I would think a bunch of stat-minded people could easily see that.
   44. Hombre Brotani Posted: February 11, 2023 at 06:24 PM (#6116557)
Again, the headline is highly misleading - this is the librarians in a single county misinterpreting the law, possibly deliberately. Florida has 67 counties, hundreds of cities & towns, and countless libraries, but only Duval County (Jacksonville) is reported to be reviewing the Clemente book or similar works. Seems like any outrage should be directed there, rather than at the state.
But look at all these libertarian-leaners rushing to defend the state, tho.
   45. Howie Menckel Posted: February 11, 2023 at 06:45 PM (#6116558)
a quick glance shows that none of you have revived this claim, so kudos - from USA Today:

"In July, a new Florida law went into effect that allows parents to register concerns about books taught in schools and petition local districts to ban them.

Nevertheless, many prominent people on social media have been claiming that a slew of books were immediately banned in schools and libraries statewide by the law. They have circulated an image of 25 book titles listed on a piece of paper.

The book list includes novels that have been taught in schools for generations, including "To Kill a Mockingbird," "Catcher in the Rye" and "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings." It also includes the Harry Potter series and the biblical Song of Solomon.

The image of the banned book list has been shared by American Federation of Teachers President Randi Weingarten and Star Wars actor Mark Hamill on Aug. 21 and 22. Hamill's tweet has racked up more than 30,000 retweets and 150,000 likes.

But the list is a fiction.

While school districts can ban books through a process created by the new law, Florida has not banned any books at the state level, a spokesperson for Gov. Ron DeSantis told USA TODAY.

In fact, several works on the list have been recommended to school districts by the state Department of Education.

Weingarten corrected and deleted her tweet within several hours of posting it. Numerous other posts featuring the list, such as Hamill's, have remained online.

at least five of books on the list are endorsed as exemplary of a "rich literary tradition" in a guide to the state's current educational standards for English Language Arts, including "To Kill a Mockingbird," "1984," "Of Mice and Men," "The Call of the Wild" and "Lord of the Flies."
   46. Tony S Posted: February 11, 2023 at 06:48 PM (#6116559)
Books are very different than movies: rating books R, and restricting access is generally a bad idea. It’s a terrible idea when you’re keeping kids from learning US history in order to protect oversensitive white people from knowing that slavery and colonization is part of our history.


As far as I can tell, there's nothing keeping school administrators from drafting a list of these banned books, and distributing it to the students with a strong "DO NOT read these books! Strictly forbidden! Stay away from them! We will not carry them in our libraries, they're that bad! Danger, danger, danger!" warning. :)
   47. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 11, 2023 at 06:50 PM (#6116560)
Florida has 67 counties, hundreds of cities & towns, and countless libraries, but only Duval County (Jacksonville) is reported to be reviewing the Clemente book or similar works.


For now.
   48. i don't vibrate on the frequency of the 57i66135 Posted: February 11, 2023 at 06:55 PM (#6116561)
As for Florida (and a Georgia and Texas), they are by far the fastest growing states attracting people and talent from all over the country while the traditional blue states bleed people like crazy. Just look at the census - people have been voting with their feet for decades. It's all there in black and white. I would think a bunch of stat-minded people could easily see that.
the fastest growing county in america is a nudist retirement village in florida that's lousy with venereal disease.

something something boomer something something.


as for georgia and texas, yes, we know that their population is growing; that growth is why democrats control the senate.
   49. i don't vibrate on the frequency of the 57i66135 Posted: February 11, 2023 at 07:01 PM (#6116562)
Who's keeping kids from learning about slavery causing the civil war? Send me a link to current textbook that talks about the civil war and forgets to mention slavery

i mean:

A group of Texas educators have proposed to the Texas State Board of Education that slavery should be taught as “involuntary relocation” during second grade social studies instruction, but board members have asked them to reconsider the phrasing, according to the state board’s chair.
[...]
In 2015, Texas attracted attention when it was discovered a social studies textbook approved for use in the state called African slaves who were brought to the United States, “workers”
“Young kids can grasp the concept of slavery and being kidnapped into it,” Gordon-Reed said. “The African slave trade is unlike anything that had or has happened, the numbers and distance.”
[...]
“Tell children the truth. They can handle it,” she said.
and, yeah:

Standards previously adopted in 2010 were designed to play up the role of states’ rights and sectionalism and downplay slavery as the reason Texas entered the Civil War on the side of the Confederacy. Slavery, one board member said at the time, according to The Washington Post, was a “side issue.”
[...]
Ron Francis, a high school history teacher in Highland Park, calls the compromise wanting. “The lies they’re telling are a little smaller than the lies they used to tell,”

   50. Itchy Row Posted: February 11, 2023 at 07:37 PM (#6116563)
Anyone who has been alive at any point in this century has no excuse for voting for any Republican. Ignorance and cowardice are not valid excuses.
   51. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 11, 2023 at 07:52 PM (#6116565)
the library is being ridiculous on purpose to try to make a statute that doesn’t reach this book look bad.
That would be a more compelling argument if it weren't for the fact that MAGA astroturf grifts like "Moms for Liberty" are filing complaints about any books that touch on the civil rights movement, and if these laws didn't provide for criminal penalties for schools that provide books that cross the line, maybe schools could be less cautious about it.
   52. Howie Menckel Posted: February 11, 2023 at 07:57 PM (#6116566)
while looking up details about this topic, I stumbled across a story today on wtae.com - a Pittsburgh television station - with quotes from Roberto Clemente Jr. about this book saga.

full disclosure: I did NOT see that plot twist coming.

at all.

not sure what the national reaction will be, if/when it goes viral.

and given the lengthy tradition of the BBTF fondness for shooting the messenger, I sure as hell ain't posting it !

#ducksforcover

(it's easy enough to find)
   53. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: February 11, 2023 at 08:23 PM (#6116567)
Florida has gone insane. It was already in crazy land, but now is so far down the 1930's Germany path I fear what we will see going forward.

Just stop.
   54. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: February 11, 2023 at 08:28 PM (#6116568)
Nope, a 16-year old's brain isn't sufficiently developed to possess the agency to give consent to treatments that may be irreversible.


This argument feels flimsy coming from the same party that thinks similarly aged girls are apparently old enough to be forced to carry an unwanted baby to term regardless of the circumstances surrounding that pregnancy.
   55. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: February 11, 2023 at 08:46 PM (#6116569)
Imagine being as smart as Snapper while still being as stupid about this kind of thing.
   56. Tony S Posted: February 11, 2023 at 09:08 PM (#6116570)
I'm not demanding kids have their genitals lopped off.



Why, what do you have against circumcision, you heathen? ;)
   57. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: February 11, 2023 at 09:43 PM (#6116572)
Imagine being as smart as Snapper while still being as stupid about this kind of thing.


I was raised Catholic. I get it.
   58. i don't vibrate on the frequency of the 57i66135 Posted: February 11, 2023 at 09:44 PM (#6116573)
and given the lengthy tradition of the BBTF fondness for shooting the messenger, I sure as hell ain't posting it !

#ducksforcover
those TPS reports aren't gonna cover themselves.
   59. Lassus Posted: February 11, 2023 at 10:25 PM (#6116575)
Not only do we defend the policy, we mock your half-baked pearl clutching.

Cry some more over co-ed bathrooms.
   60. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 11, 2023 at 10:47 PM (#6116577)
16, old enough to be forced to carry a baby to term, old enough to carry a fire arm, but too young to do stuff that makes some people feel uncomfortable - even if parents, doctors and everyone else is fine with it.
   61. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 11, 2023 at 11:08 PM (#6116578)
Here's that Clemente Jr. story, with the relevant part quoted below. Not sure what's so big a deal about posting it:

PITTSBURGH —

A children's book about Roberto Clemente has been removed from Florida's Duval County Schools while they review its content for young readers.

"It's a great book and a book that anyone can read, and the middle schoolers, I don't see an issue, but the younger ones absolutely, I do agree," said Roberto Clemente Jr.

Clemente Jr. said when he first heard the book about his father was being removed, he was angry, until he re-opened the book and saw the references to racism and the struggles his father went through as a Black, Puerto Rican man.

"I think that quote for a young child could be of great impact in terms of seeing color like that, and there is a consequence for me being this color if there is no separation from the beginning," said Clemente Jr.

Clemente Jr. said his father's story is important, but the lessons learned should be based on a child's age and the possible influence.

"When it comes to my children that don't see color reading a statement in a book where it says, 'I am Black, and because I am Black, this is happening to me.' For me, there is a place to have a quote being taught to a child of such a thing," said Clemente Jr. " If you want to, as a parent, but I think that just sending a child to school as a blank canvas and putting a color or planting a seed of 'we are not all the same' is something that kind of took me aback, and I sat down, and I thought about it a little bit deeper."
   62. Robbo Posted: February 12, 2023 at 12:39 AM (#6116582)
Hey getting rid of Clemente books, means more books about real heroes like Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee!
   63. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 12, 2023 at 12:54 AM (#6116583)
As I’m sure many already concluded, considering the source, #48 is factually incorrect in every respect, and #49 which purports to respond to a question about current textbooks cherry-picks various proposals that were never adopted anywhere or are otherwise not in current use.
   64. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 12, 2023 at 08:30 AM (#6116587)
#48 is factually incorrect in every respect


Herschel Walker was cheated!
   65. JJ1986 Posted: February 12, 2023 at 08:52 AM (#6116588)
Not sure what's so big a deal about posting it:
Some people (not saying who, hehe) want to be pro-book banning while maintaining plausible deniability.
   66. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: February 12, 2023 at 09:20 AM (#6116589)
Not sure what's so big a deal about posting it:

Because the Culture Wars must be fought on all fronts, all the time, every minute of every hour of every day. (Hell, why did we build all these barricades if we aren't gonna use them...?!)
   67. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 12, 2023 at 09:28 AM (#6116590)
I posted that long excerpt because if anyone's opinion provides a unique perspective on the Clemente book, it's Clemente's own son. I still can't quite figure out Howie's hangup.
   68. You Cannot Transcribe Zonk Posted: February 12, 2023 at 11:10 AM (#6116596)
Ever since the Treaty of Dersleigh ended the Great War on Christmas, I always had a feeling something like this would happen.

As I said at the time, "This is not peace, it is a grift-business for 20 years."

Many volks never accepted the defeat, and the mythology would inevitably grow: Santa never lost a battle in the field, the Christmas army was stabbed in the back by big library, big tech, big elite, and big book, etc.

All it would take would a be flashpoint - a shootout at a German server farm where factions of the CIA were fighting to retrieve evidence of ballots altered by Italian satellites for example, children dressing as cats - and we'd end up right back where we started, with roving bands marching in the street, demanding a do-over, bellowing their Worst Weasel anthem, etc.
   69. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: February 12, 2023 at 12:13 PM (#6116599)
Because the Culture Wars must be fought on all fronts, all the time, every minute of every hour of every day. (Hell, why did we build all these barricades if we aren't gonna use them...?!)


I know, right? It would be so nice if the left would stop screaming about M&M's and drag shows and CRT and higher-education "indoctrination" and "offensive" books and Satanic panic and...
   70. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 12, 2023 at 12:20 PM (#6116601)
16, old enough to be forced to carry a baby to term, old enough to carry a fire arm, but too young to do stuff that makes some people feel uncomfortable - even if parents, doctors and everyone else is fine with it.

Mutilating and sterilizing children makes me uncomfortable. Yes. I'm the monster. Removing perfectly healthy body parts in response to a mental disorder only makes sense to people who have imbibed a bizarre cult worldview.

What do you say to the growing ranks of de-transitioners who regret the mastectomies and hysterectomies performed upon them when they were too young to consent to a tattoo?

The "party of science" indeed.
   71. You Cannot Transcribe Zonk Posted: February 12, 2023 at 12:31 PM (#6116602)
Rather than doctors, mental health professionals and the individual, I think such highly personal decisions are best left to distant observers with cudgels and their elected politicians.
   72. nick swisher hygiene Posted: February 12, 2023 at 12:32 PM (#6116603)
After three or four reads, I see only two possibilities: Clemente's son is a deeply incoherent thinker, or he was quoted in such a way as to make him seem so....

"I don't see color" MAY be a good philosophy to apply in certain situations in one's everyday experience.

It is NOT gonna get you far when applied as a methodological principle for historical and social analysis.
   73. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 12, 2023 at 12:41 PM (#6116604)
I know, right? It would be so nice if the left would stop screaming about M&M's and drag shows and CRT and higher-education "indoctrination" and "offensive" books and Satanic panic and...


I'll go even further: Everyone should just stop complaining about everything! Stop whining! Please sir, may I have another? No? OK! I'm not complaining!
   74. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 12, 2023 at 12:48 PM (#6116605)
Clemente's son is a deeply incoherent thinker, or he was quoted in such a way as to make him seem so....


I skimmed his comments and here's how I read them: Leave small children (new readers) out of it. Kids don't see color.


I grew up in Boston. I was in the second grade when they started school busing (1965). One day, there was a knock on the classroom door, and when the teacher opened it, there stood the school principal and a black kid from a few neighborhoods away who stood there with a sign hung around his neck that read "May I join your class?" We looked at each other and shrugged and said "yeah why not?" because, again, at 7 years old, you don't "see color". More to the point...you don't know that society has a racism problem, and would be horrified to learn about it.

If these books are presented to first and second graders, then no, they aren't appropriate. By the 4th or 5th grade, they are.


edit...then again...kids of color are more likely to have experienced racism by the time they're 7 than white kids, so, why not have books that speak to 7 year olds about racism? Maybe the Clemente book isn't that book. I don't know. But I'm sure there are some talented writers out there that could write such a book (one geared to 7 year olds).
   75. cookiedabookie Posted: February 12, 2023 at 12:58 PM (#6116606)
Who did we colonize?

Manifest Destiny was literally the United States colonizing from coast to coast...
And you may want to read up on the history of Hawaii...
   76. The Duke Posted: February 12, 2023 at 01:00 PM (#6116607)
51. Implicit in your comment is that schools and school boards should be able to do what they want. This issue played out in Virginia where mcauliffe lost based on the famous line ". I don’t think parents should be telling schools what they should teach.”

This belief that the state knows what's best for your children has driven a backlash. We used to believe the various govts had our children's' best interests at heart. Parents checked out and were happy for 30-40 years. Not so anymore. They found out during the pandemic all the crazy #### being taught their kids and things have started to change. Whether it's gender stuff or CRT or guns/drugs or hiding things from parents about their own children, a lot of people woke up (so to speak)

Some new normal will return once parents rally and put sane people back on school boards and get rid of teachers who want to indoctrinate their children instead of teaching them. Except in a handful of rich enclaves the public school system (and the elitist rich kid private school systems) are completely incompetent and/or corrupt. The only good alternatives now are catholic schools and home schooling, and there aren't that many nuns to go around. Public schools epitomize the phrase "you get what you pay for".

I was educated in public schools but had the good fortune to grow up in a super rich community so the schools were top notch.

My niece taught in the catholic schools and then had to move and teach in Floridas public schools. She had to quit after a couple years because the public system was utterly dysfunctional. She said the catholic schools had plenty of problems too but performed their basic tasks pretty well.
   77. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 12, 2023 at 01:01 PM (#6116608)
Mutilating and sterilizing children makes me uncomfortable.


You know what the MAGAs would tell you, snapper: #### YOUR FEELINGS!

Those people are so rude.
   78. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 12, 2023 at 01:05 PM (#6116609)
Implied in 76 is that the "old ways" of teaching were unbiased, but this new era is not. LOL!
   79. Tony S Posted: February 12, 2023 at 01:09 PM (#6116610)
I'm looking forward to the samizdat student networks that will inevitably crop up from these government bans. Forbidden fruit is the tastiest.
   80. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 12, 2023 at 01:23 PM (#6116611)
I was educated in public schools but had the good fortune to grow up in a super rich community so the schools were top notch.


I have some bad news for you...
   81. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 12, 2023 at 01:28 PM (#6116613)
Clemente Jr. said when he first heard the book about his father was being removed, he was angry, until he re-opened the book and saw the references to racism and the struggles his father went through as a Black, Puerto Rican man.
While I mostly disagree with Clemente Jr's view that examples of historic racism should be off limits to third graders, witnessing non-Andy leftists here desperately pretend his commentary doesn't exist is beyond hilarious.
   82. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 12, 2023 at 01:38 PM (#6116614)
I know, right? It would be so nice if the left would stop screaming about M&M's and drag shows and CRT and higher-education "indoctrination" and "offensive" books and Satanic panic and...
As someone pointed out, here's how WaPo, a creature of the left, operates on this score:

4 stories from Washington Post in a 2 day period:

1. No one is coming after gas stoves

2. Republicans are just making gas stoves an issue to wage culture war

3. Why regulators are banning gas stoves

4. Why banning gas stoves is good actually


Your peeps push loony ideas, then kvetch when we have the chutzpah to respond.

It's always projection with the left. Always.
   83. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 12, 2023 at 01:42 PM (#6116615)
After three or four reads, I see only two possibilities: Clemente's son is a deeply incoherent thinker, or he was quoted in such a way as to make him seem so....

"I don't see color" MAY be a good philosophy to apply in certain situations in one's everyday experience.

It is NOT gonna get you far when applied as a methodological principle for historical and social analysis.

I skimmed his comments and here's how I read them: Leave small children (new readers) out of it. Kids don't see color.

I think Bivens has it right in his reading of what Clemente Jr. wrote. You can agree or disagree with it, but it's not an over-the-top opinion.

--------------

Implied in 76 is that the "old ways" of teaching were unbiased, but this new era is not. LOL!

No current textbook dealing with American racial history, no matter how "woke" its accusers make it out to be, could possibly be 1/100th as biased as the sort of History textbooks that were prevalent up through the 1960's and in some places even later, and not just in the South. That book I recommended yesterday afternoon cites hundreds of such books, many written by mainstream authors like Henry Steele Commager, Samuel Eliot Morrison, Allan Nevins and the like, all of whom basically parroted the Lost Cause line on Reconstruction and the demonization of the abolitionist movement. The "lessons" those books taught about inherent Black inferiority are still held by many millions of Americans today, even though those books have been out of print now for many decades. You don't have to buy all the arguments of Nikole Hannah-Jones is order to understand just how much traditional mainstream history has distorted the realities of what American life was like in the past.


   84. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 12, 2023 at 01:53 PM (#6116617)
This argument feels flimsy coming from the same party that thinks similarly aged girls are apparently old enough to be forced to carry an unwanted baby to term regardless of the circumstances surrounding that pregnancy.
Quite right, imagine the balls on anyone who believes protecting innocent human life might be more important than any other consideration.

And please, stop kidding us that this is about rape or incest. The days of "safe, legal, and rare" that Bill Clinton espoused during his presidency are long forgotten and folks like you support abortion whenever, wherever.
   85. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 12, 2023 at 01:55 PM (#6116618)
Your peeps push loony ideas, then kvetch when we have the chutzpah to respond.


Like sunsetting SS and medicare?
   86. John Reynard Posted: February 12, 2023 at 02:04 PM (#6116619)
Banning books in school, that were already there, is rarely defensible.

I'm find with Clemente Jr. thinking kids not knowing that racism is a thing is better. But, I don't think he's right. Kids should have better ideas of how and why adults do things. I mean, I can still remember being four and the first time I can remember seeing a really tall black guy with a giant afro (yeah it was circa 1975 or so......and my parents had lots of assimilated black friends and associates, but, none with afros). So, in positive news, the black guy thought it was cool that I thought his hair was really cool, even though it was clear I'd never seen an afro in person before by age four. My parents looked scared as ####.....cause they were afraid the guy might be offended (he wasn't and even bent down to "low five" me). The memory stuck with me because my parents were wigged out......and it wasn't until I was older that I realized why.

We really think its wrong to let kids know #### like why my parents were nervous and why a black person might over-react?

If knowledge is wrong, I guess I support wrongness. But, I disagree that knowledge is wrong in almost any context. Sure, we don't want public schools teaching things like "how to make a WMD", but knowing racism isn't remotely in that territory.
   87. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 12, 2023 at 02:06 PM (#6116620)
Like sunsetting SS and medicare?
Of course, Biden lied because no one said SS and Medicare should be sunsetted. (Or are you referring to Biden's championing of a freeze* on SS and Medicare spending back in the day?)

So thanks for sharing another example of leftist projection.

By the way, this has nothing to do with the so-called culture wars.

* In the Democrat lexicon, slowing the rate of spending, let alone enacting a freeze, of a program constitutes a "gutting," and may result in ads portraying a Republican lawmaker like Paul Ryan pushing a grandmother in a wheelchair off a cliff.
   88. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 12, 2023 at 02:07 PM (#6116621)
folks like you support abortion whenever, wherever.


The people that have convinced you of this are lying to you.
   89. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 12, 2023 at 02:08 PM (#6116622)
Of course, Biden lied because no one said SS and Medicare should be sunsetted.


Rick Scott did. Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy say he did.
   90. John Reynard Posted: February 12, 2023 at 02:09 PM (#6116623)
Like sunsetting SS and medicare?


Sunsetting the entire legal code every five years is lunacy, yes, given how dysfunctional Congress is as the moment. Are we sure we can even agree in Congress to pay for things we've already legally authorized? Nope....we're not.

I suppose it'd be a libertarian dream, right until the gun nuts came and broke the non-aggression protocol and took "their stuff" that used to be protected by having a government which maintains property rights.
   91. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 12, 2023 at 02:11 PM (#6116624)
I'm not a fan of gas as an energy source. My preference is to use something that won't blow up my house real good.

I can understand why JE the DM defends the gas industry, because he loves to light gas.
   92. Tony S Posted: February 12, 2023 at 02:16 PM (#6116625)
I was educated in public schools but had the good fortune to grow up in a super rich community so the schools were top notch.



I have some bad news for you...


If a "top-notch" school is teaching its students that the US never colonized anyone (which would be news to Filipinos, Puerto Ricans and Samoans), then I would have no choice but to agree with the idea that American education is in a very, very dire state.
   93. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 12, 2023 at 02:32 PM (#6116626)
It's always projection with the left. Always.


So thanks for sharing another example of leftist projection.


The only appropriate response to this nonsense is: this.
   94. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 12, 2023 at 02:47 PM (#6116628)
As someone pointed out, here's how WaPo, a creature of the left,** operates on this score:

4 stories from Washington Post in a 2 day period:

1. No one is coming after gas stoves


Of course that's true. The closest thing to this is Berkeley's banning of gas hookups on new stoves. No state has banned gas stoves, while several states have banned municipalities from even proposing the idea.

2. Republicans are just making gas stoves an issue to wage culture war

If you haven't noticed this, congratulations on completing your successful defoxification program.

3. Why regulators are banning gas stoves

What regulators? Where?

4. Why banning gas stoves is good actually

I assume you're referring to some op-ed. The WP has op-eds covering pretty much every opinion on every subject from A to Z.

It may well be good in theory, but it's going to take a long time and a lot of advances in electric stove technology to make any thoughts of replacement a serious possibility.

** This "creature of the left" regularly publishes George Will, Marc Thiessen, Hugh Hewitt, Gary Abernathy, Megan McArdle, Ruy Teixeira, and Jim Geraghty, just to name a few. Not to mention several other columnists like Max Boot, Jennifer Rubin, and the late Michael Gerson, who were conservatives when the Post hired them, but when Trump came along they had to jump ship. As Ronald Reagan might've put it, they didn't leave the GOP, the GOP left them.
   95. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 12, 2023 at 02:52 PM (#6116629)
Rick Scott did. Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy say he did.
No more so than Joe Biden. Both suggested that every program be sunset after 5 years, with Congress regularly reviewing all and renewing the good ones. While Scott indicated that he’d extend Social Security & Medicare, I don’t believe Biden went that far when he was pushing the idea back in the day. Biden’s plan didn’t go anywhere, and neither will Scott’s. He’s just about the only prominent Republican pushing for including Social Security & Medicare in sunset reviews, but that hasn’t stopped some Democrats from blatantly lying about the degree of GOP support for Scott’s plan.
   96. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 12, 2023 at 03:01 PM (#6116630)
Is Joe Biden suggesting they be sunsetted now? That's all I care about (unless you force him into a time machine so he can go back and try again).

Rick Scott is likely to run for president, so we'll see if the other R candidates distance themselves from him on this issue.

Also, if you're suggesting that Joe Biden would have voted to end SS and Medicare...LOL!
   97. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 12, 2023 at 03:11 PM (#6116631)
What regulators? Where?
Let’s not play dumb. Richard Trumka, Jr., a Biden appointee to the Consumer Product Safety Commission pushed the idea in a memorandum to the entire Commission:
The Biden administration seriously considered banning natural gas-powered stoves before it received widespread criticism for considering such a move, according to an internal memo obtained by Fox News Digital.

In the memo dated Oct. 25, 2022, Richard Trumka Jr. — whom President Biden appointed to serve on the five-person Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) — wrote to a fellow commissioner that there was sufficient evidence for the agency to move forward with a notice of proposed rulemaking (NPR) to ban gas stoves in the near future. Trumka's memo was titled, "NPR Proposing Ban on Gas Stoves (Indoor Air Quality)."

"The need for gas stove regulation has reached a boiling point," the CPSC commissioner wrote in the October memo. "CPSC has the responsibility to ban consumer products that emit hazardous substances, particularly, when those emissions harm children, under the Federal Hazardous Substances Act."

"Emerging evidence is sufficient to conclude that gas stoves in homes emit toxic gasses that cause illness and that lower-cost, safer alternatives are available," Trumka added.
The loud and immediate outcry was sufficient to cause the Administration to back off, with the midterm election looming, but it is pure gaslighting to now pretend that this wasn’t a serious proposal. It’s also ridiculous to try to minimize the proposal’s effect by suggesting that it would only apply to new construction. Why should new consumers be denied the option of cooking with gas?
   98. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 12, 2023 at 03:13 PM (#6116632)
Rick Scott is likely to run for president . . .
Not in 2024. Maybe never.
   99. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 12, 2023 at 03:14 PM (#6116633)
Rick Scott is Susan Collins level concerned about Medicare.

"Scott “compounded that attack on earned benefits” by advocating for the repeal of the Inflation Reduction Act, legislation passed last year that allows Medicare to negotiate lower prescription drug prices.
Scott argues that giving the federal government the power to negotiate lower drug prices is in effect a cut to Medicare, predicting it will stifle innovation in the pharmaceutical industry by cutting the flow of money to drug companies."

Cutting Medicare costs will stifle innovation by cutting the flow of money to drug companies, but sunsetting Medicare won't. Because you know, those Republicans are the good guys and can always be trusted to keep the flow of money going on social welfare programs. Got it.
   100. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 12, 2023 at 03:17 PM (#6116634)
Not in 2024. Maybe never.


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