"Great Right Wing Noise Machine" is a term that I'm pretty sure originated during the Clinton administration, mocking the ongoing promotion of Whitewater and Vincent Foster "scandals".

It appears that you are conflating a term that only exists in your mind - at least according to my search engine - with the “Vast Right Wing Conspiracy” that Hillary Clinton claimed was out to get her & Bill.

Addendum to #201: “GRWNM” doesn’t bring up any relevant hits on Google, but if you put Great Right Wing Noise Machine in quotes you do get a few hits for the likes of Daily Kos & such. So, Andy’s not completely wrong, just on a solitary campaign to turn some obscure political phraseology into an acronym known only to himself.

To review, Clapper thinks it's perfectly kosher to quote an industry spokeswoman's view in his comment without noting that she's an industry spokeswoman, as long as he provides a link that identifies her as such. He also sees no distinction between proposed bans of future gas stoves and confiscating existing gas stoves---which nobody has ever proposed.

I eagerly await to see how he'd apply this sort of speculative logic to the idea that the Republicans have never wanted to do away with (or privatize) Social Security.

P. S. "The Great Right Wing Noise Machine", along with Hillary's "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy", is just a variant of the more specific "Republican Noise Machine". The former term has been around for many years and used by innumerable people (google it with quote marks and you get 2700+ results). And everyone but Clapper understands exactly what is meant by it, even if they'd never seen the exact term before. It's rather self-explanatory.

You should take another look at my #114, Andy, before continuing to embarrass yourself. I didn’t ‘quote’ anyone. I merely responded to your highly inaccurate post (#107) that tried to downplay the Consumer Product Safety Commission’s formal rulemaking process, acting as if it was a bureaucratic nothingburger. I corrected you on that, and pointed out that your repeated insistence that this was just “one CPSC Commissioner” was incorrect, as the Biden Administration had also initiated a major regulatory proposal through the Department of Energy to impose energy standards on gas stoves that may ban 95% of the gas stoves current on the market.

I also pointed out that you were grossly inaccurate to claim that only Berkeley was imposing onerous regulations on gas stoves, when some 99 jurisdictions had already done so, including NYC, LA & SF, with more in the works. Rather than admit you were wrong about just about everything you posted, you seized on the fact that I used the 95% figure that had been suggested by an industry trade group. I did, but not to endorse that specific claim, just to make clear that this was a major regulatory undertaking that you were completely ignoring.

There are rare times when the source of information is so vital that it should probably be in the link or headline, but this was not one of them, since the purpose was merely to point out you had completely ignored the DOE effort, not to debate its precise merits. Your highly selective link policing attempts to criticize me for a policy that neither you nor anyone else here follows, and is but a feeble effort to distract from the many inaccuracies in your original post. Give it a rest.

In solidarity with TraderDave . . .

My 2nd child was born female. Always insisted on short hair, wrestled with me 10X more than my older son (musician & chef) ever did, always loved building things, working on plumbing - big help putting together our BBQ, hooking up the bidet, any and everything like that. We are a pretty typical rural family - homecooked meals almost every night at the table, play together on the weekends, firepit/4 acres, tree climbing, garden, etc. Super happy kid, big friend group, great in school academically, played sports, drama . . . then puberty hit between 9 and 10. Things remained solid at home (we put up non-binary & trans flags in their room, honored the requested pronoun change to they/them - just kept showing unconditional love) but social withdrawal and anxiety became a major issue as physical development (which came sooner and more rapidly than it did for most of their peers, despite being youngest in their class) became harder and harder to hide.

Developing female physical traits during puberty led to a gradual downward spiral of depression that culminated in debilitating panic attacks & social anxiety, a great deal of hybrid/homeschooling (which the school supported, we are lucky to be in a well-funded & compassionate public school system) . . . we kept bringing the love and acceptance and making sure home was a safe space. Found a supportive therapist where my child could explore these incredibly confusing feelings. My older son has friends who are trans, which provided some needed social connection and acceptance and a sounding board for my youngest's confusing feelings, as did on-line communities of other kids struggling to understand the disconnect.

We are now past the bottom of the experience. My now 13-year old has embraced their very feminine physical appearance (tall, thin, muscular but also with a figure) - clothes have now become a bit more revealing than I'd prefer (tank tops are all the rage noawadays), but I'm glad they have learned to be comfortable in their own skin. They are maintaining they/them pronouns, but clearly present as feminine most days - proud of their hair/make-up/body shape. They know the option is open to continue to explore gender expression, if need be.

This is nothing anybody "chose" or "groomed" or any of the other buzzwords people so freely throw around (unless I did the "grooming" by allowing my daughter to help me with plumbing and power tools). This distinct feeling of "my body doesn't represent who I am inside" emerged from within, and the seeds were there from the start. We all wished it wasn't happening because of the suffering that came with it - my child most of all. It didn't them bring joy or attention, there was no motivation to "pretend" (outside of trying and failing to "pretend" it wasn't happening). But we worked through it together using understanding and compassion, allowed our child to explore what they were feeling inside without judgmental pressure, and they have found a new, happy equilibrium. Self-confidence is strong, and they feel free.

People used to think left-handed people were the witches and "converted" them to be right-handed. People insisted it was "unnatural" and "against nature". We now view that as utterly ridiculous. Let's learn from that experience.

Moreover, the Biden Administration’s ‘War on Gas” isn’t confined to the CPSC. The Department of Energy recently proposed new standards for energy consumption that may ban 95% of the gas stoves in currently on the market.

That was what you wrote in #114, without mentioning that the "95%" came from an industry spokeswoman. How convenient.

And what does "currently on the market" mean, other than existing gas stoves? The proposed regulations apply to those not yet on the market. One of these years you'll acknowledge the difference.

I also pointed out that you were grossly inaccurate to claim that only Berkeley was imposing onerous regulations on gas stoves, when some 99 jurisdictions had already done so, including NYC, LA & SF, with more in the works.

You were correct in that statement, and I was wrong in thinking it was only Berkeley.

There are rare times when the source of information is so vital that it should probably be in the link or headline, but this was not one of them, since the purpose was merely to point out you had completely ignored the DOE effort, not to debate its precise merits.

If that were your true purpose, it could've been easy to say something along the lines of this: "On the contrary, Andy, a leading industry representative says DOE proposal may ban 95%....", linking to the exact same article. This would've provided the context that was omitted by your selective wording, while at the same time presenting the industry's argument.

And of course you want to "debate its precise merits"; you're hardly an agnostic on this issue, any more than Trumka. You're dead set opposed to any sort of banning of gas stoves, either now or in the future, for reasons you've spelled out quite clearly.

In but a page Andy has gone from being completely unaware of the Department of Energy’s proposed gas stove regulation to lecturing others about how one should properly call attention to his unfamiliarity with the matter. LoL.

Thank you for solidarity, pikepredator.

Email me anytime.

I'll thank Clapper for making me aware about NYC's and other jurisdictions to ban future gas stove installations. We all learn something every day, sometimes even from our opponents.

Now if Clapper will stop posting industry groups' claims without calling attention to the source of those claims, we can both agree that independent scientific studies should guide governments on how to deal with this controversial issue. We didn't take tobacco companies' "studies" seriously, and there's little reason to take those gas stove manufacturers' Chicken Little claims seriously without independent verification.

dear pikepredator

what an awesome parent you are!!! your kid is a lucky kid to have a dad like you

I echo base ball chick’s lauding of your enlightened approach to an extremely challenging family situation.
I likewise applaud your cogent writing style.
I am impressed by folks who can order their thoughts and express them verbally or in print.

Back to Roberto Clemente for a moment.
I was 10 when he got called up to the Pirates in 1955.
Most Pittsburghers had never seen an Hispanic person before, let alone one of mixed African and Hispanic heritage.
In an effort to “ease” Mr Clemente into the then current state of consciousness, Bob Prince, the Pirates primary radio broadcaster (KDKA 1020 on your dial, 50,000 watts of clear channel AM radio) began to call Roberto “Bob”.
You could see Clemente struggle with that appellation when he and Price would do a spot on KDKA tv sports news.
Roberto was a very proud man who bristled a bit with this unearned familiarity.
Likewise, whenever he became injured and could not perform up to his own very high expectations he asked his managers to allow him to heal and not be forced to perform in a subpar manner.
This didn’t go over well with many white fans who thought he was malingering.
It took many years for both sides to understand the underlying motivations of one another.

Traderdave and pikepredator, thank you for two of the most meaningful and important posts I've ever read on this site.

I wish you both all the best in your family's journey.

Thank you BLB, and everyone else who has offered support.

I hope you got my BTF email, Dave.

Here was DeSantis yesterday mocking the pearl clutchers:

["We may do an event where we show all this stuff [inappropriate content in school libraries]... not 1 person would say this stuff should be in. [Books about] kids engaging in sex acts, you're gonna compare that to a biography of Roberto Clemente? Give me a break."

Almost three years and nothing has changed here; covid truly was a tragedy of colossal proportion.

Gas stoves? Really? I suppose there is no man more free than he who sincerely wants nothing more than what his masters tell him to want.

214:

Hombre, I have not received. I will send you a test msg

The gas stoves are ransacked, the M&Ms; all sexless and the vaccine descends
...

What are we gonna do now?

Taking off the pants, they say make this one a man
Cause they're working for the clampdown
They put up a poster saying save your gas stoves
When working for the clampdown
We will teach our twisted speech
to the podcast listeners
We will train our brand new voters
To be paranoid

Drudge says jive and then but hey, he ain't my friend
I'm not working for the clampdown
Could have sworn freedom had a bigger role
I'm not working for the clampdown

Anger can be power... Let fury have its hour.

lol Desantis is the one giving press conferences in front of a bunch of gas stoves and vowing to exclude them from sales tax even though less than 10 percent of the stoves in the state are gas operated, but sure, it's the left's fault.

The "they're coming for your gas stoves" is just a dorkier, more embarrassing version of "their coming for your guns!"

Despite all of the huffing and puffing here, the WaPo stories cited in the tweet were real -- and quite revealing.

And of course, the left is still coming after the guns, even as the public endures a more recent disturbing phenomenon, namely Soros-bankrolled prosecutors who refuse to prosecute gun crimes. (Michigan State University says hi.)

Almost three years and nothing has changed here; covid truly was a tragedy of colossal proportion.

Welcome back! Is Kehoskie right behind you?

The Vichy decision to gain some Trump separation, albeit in rather quiet and non-confrontational manner that tries to avoid drawing his ire, on Covid response fascinates me.

Maybe it shouldn't and I'm just naive.

It somewhat - all irony fully intended - reminds me of people who cling to The College Dropout as some kind of reason to excuse modern Kanye West.

I get it - it's not complicated. If your principles are operational, yesterday is really just a candy wrapper to be cast aside when it becomes inconvenient to keep, and your life is consumed by finding the best saddle for the tiger riding... Well, say what you will, but at least it's an ethos.

Just like Vichy, it's a lot easier to decide who you hate most and then let that drive anything that follows. Internecine conflicts? Moral objections? Quiet discomfort? Doesn't really matter. Preserve your viability, go Swayze on the clay of the past, and lean on your gymnastics.

At the end of the day, I guess if you've found your north star - you sail towards it regardless of the weather.

Despite all of the huffing and puffing here, the WaPo stories cited in the tweet were real -- and quite revealing.

Since "they're coming after your gas stoves" is the talking point, do you want to add another proposition to our little election bet?

I'll bet that by election day 2024, not a single person in the United States will have had his or her gas stove removed from his or her home or apartment by any government agency, unless the stove exploded and it's removed by the fire department.

Do you want to bet I'm wrong?

Sheee-it, I'll wager that out to Election Day 2124.

Sheee-it, I'll wager that out to Election Day 2124.

i'll take that bet. /s

best case: i win free money.
worst case: i die before i lose.

And of course, the left is still coming after the guns, even as the public endures a more recent disturbing phenomenon, namely Soros-bankrolled

Talk about nothing changing. Except he was off by about 15 years with you.

Sheee-it, I'll wager that out to Election Day 2124.

i'll take that bet. /s

best case: i win free money.
worst case: i die before i lose.

Okay, my insurance company somehow (no idea why) says my current life expectancy is now 21 years. And I'm 78.

So do you want to move my offer from 2024 to say, 2036? (smile)

Best case: I win and enjoy a free steak dinner.
Worst case: I lose and forget where I put my billfold, and have to pay for the meal by washing dishes.

Please add my voice to those commending Traderdave and pikepredator on both their openness and ability to (so far, at least) navigate the waters of hatred and bigotry with their heads held high.

But I have to say - this is a discussion that seems so odd to me. How does the way another person describe him/her/theirself affect me in the least little bit? How does a marriage between two women or two men, people I don't even know, lessen the marriage between my wife and I? If Traderdave's child identifies as male or female, so what? Does it affect anyone, even his family and closest friends, one little bit? Does a parent love a child less because of his/her/their identity?

These are obviously rhetorical questions, because no honest person can answer any of these questions "Yes, it matters".

"What about fair play in sports?" - If you're worried that kids are going to start changing sexual identity like they change hairstyle just to gain a competative advantage in (checks notes) high school sports, I would suggest that maybe their upbringing wasn't the best.

"What about the bathroom?" - News flash - there are creeps out there who will do whatever they need to do their creepy things. And they don't need to pretend to change their sexual identification to succeed.

I once hired a person who started to transition from male to female while they worked for me (they quit to get a better job (a pretty low bar to clear, to tell the truth)). As she ("he" while working for me, but I assume that's changed) started dressing more femininly, there were whispers that didn't stay whispers around work which I did my best to stop by asking people why it mattered so much (but when the boss is one of those whispering, there's only so much you can do).

I dunno. Maybe I'm the weirdo and this stuff really does matter at some level, but I don't see it.

Ah yes; you ask the age old question, “how does that affect me”.
And the age old answer still resounds “because they are the other”.
And who is the other?
Someone who doesn’t’ Look like me, worship like me, dress like me, think like me.
The “other” are always the scapegoats whenever bad things happen to societies or members thereof.
We live in a highly fractured society that looks to identify the others in our midst, to chastise and blame.
Not a healthy situation indeed.

Ah yes; you ask the age old question, “how does that affect me”.
And the age old answer still resounds “because they are the other”.
And who is the other?
Someone who doesn’t’ Look like me, worship like me, dress like me, think like me.
The “other” are always the scapegoats whenever bad things happen to societies or members thereof.
We live in a highly fractured society that looks to identify the others in our midst, to chastise and blame.
Not a healthy situation indeed.

Thank you TDF, and thanks to everyone else who has offered support. Several lurkers have emailed me, which almost makes me rethink my commitment to misanthropy.

I wish I had always held my head high with the courage you allude to, but I'm getting better at it.

As for the bathroom non-issue, it reminds me of when my kids were little. I tried to keep busy with activities like museums, walks in the city, hikes etc and of course on every outing there would be bathroom breaks. More than one person expressed surprise that I would bring 2 little girls into a men's room, but it was truly nothing. For starters, the other men were facing away at urinals so no naughty bits to see, but people who imagine bathrooms as sexual places are a bit off.

Do you want to bet I'm wrong?

Clapper was 100% correct about the deflection.

Despite all of the huffing and puffing here, the WaPo stories cited in the tweet were real -- and quite revealing.

Always the same three step process.

1. "It's not happening! It'll never happen!"

2. "It's happening, and here's why that's a good thing!"

3. "It happened and maybe it wasn't a good thing, but you deserved it because you're a bad person."

Talk about nothing changing. Except he was off by about 15 years with you.

You still live in New York State, right? No matter how many times the Court rules in favor of gun rights, the left does everything in its power to prevent law-abiding citizens from owning firearms.

And of course, Illinois plays the lawfare card too.

No matter how many times the Court rules in favor of gun rights, the left does everything in its power to prevent law-abiding citizens from owning firearms.

Some Democrats did the same thing on school integration - Massive Resistance, passing law after law in an attempt to thwart compliance. Generally, it’s not a good look to pass blatantly unconstitutional laws, on any issue. California Democrats just had their efforts to thwart the Federal Arbitration Act overturned for the umpteenth time, as even the 9th Circuit couldn’t stomach California criminalizing inclusion of an arbitration clause in an employment contract.

quick question:

which is a more plausible theory:

-- gas stoves cause asthma

or

-- vaccines cause autism

quick question:

which is a more plausible theory:

-- gas stoves cause asthma

or

-- vaccines cause autism

Considering one has some science behind it, and the other has Jenny McCarthy, I'm going with the gas stoves-asthma connection.

which is a more plausible theory:

-- gas stoves cause asthma

or

-- vaccines cause autism

Let's go with:

-- Eagles lose Super Bowls.

Hey, one non-sequitur deserves another. ┐(ツ)┌

I'll bet that by election day 2024, not a single person in the United States will have had his or her gas stove removed from his or her home or apartment by any government agency, unless the stove exploded and it's removed by the fire department.

Andy again tries to gaslight us by focusing on the prospective effect of various regulations rather than their great impact, while also ignoring the lack of justification for such regulations.

That is an amazing display of hypocrisy, since Andy has impliedly threatened violence (presumably with a well-placed pool cue) against anyone trying to take his gas stove. However, the more likely path, if Andy’s lefty comrades have their way, is a prospective ban, followed by increasingly higher taxes to ‘encourage’ those not in compliance to see the light, while simultaneously doing their best to drive up the cost of natural gas and bankrupt its producers & suppliers.

However, the more likely path, if Andy’s lefty comrades have their way, is a prospective ban, followed by increasingly higher taxes to ‘encourage’ those not in compliance to see the light, while simultaneously doing their best to drive up the cost of natural gas and bankrupt its producers & suppliers.

WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE BUGGY WHIP MAKERS????

EDIT, because I accidently hit enter: Seriously - whether it will force the producers and suppliers out of business means nothing in a debate of whether a policy is in the public good. If our entire economy is based on child porn, getting rid of child porn is still the best thing to do, even if it puts tons of people out of work.

Andy again tries to gaslight us by focusing on the prospective effect of various regulations rather than their great impact

I take this as an admission that nobody is coming to take our gas stoves away. Not that you haven't known that all along, even though you won't admit it.

Now if you can only tell that to some of your Chicken Little friends who are likely stocking up on even more guns in fear that the mean old government is going to sic their "comrades" on them, to break down their doors and confiscate their gas stoves.

, while also ignoring the lack of justification for such regulations.

If you're talking about justification for regulations that affect future cooking stove installations, I'd say it's more a case of you following the industry line that dismisses these arguments as "junk science". But the truth is that neither you nor I nor anyone else here is qualified to make such an unequivocal statement.

That is an amazing display of hypocrisy, since Andy has impliedly threatened violence (presumably with a well-placed pool cue) against anyone trying to take his gas stove. However, the more likely path, if Andy’s lefty comrades have their way, is a prospective ban, followed by increasingly higher taxes to ‘encourage’ those not in compliance to see the light, while simultaneously doing their best to drive up the cost of natural gas and bankrupt its producers & suppliers.

To this incoherent stream of gibberish I can only reply with a big, fat grin. Don't ever change, Claps. Promise me you'll never change.

No matter how many times the Court rules in favor of gun rights, the left does everything in its power to prevent law-abiding citizens from owning firearms.

You could have shown up to read this statement at Gendron’s sentencing.


Almost three years and nothing has changed here

Which liberals’ fault was it you showed in this thread instead of the Rolen HOF one? Soros?

Yankee Clapper - quick question, do you think the gas stoves-asthma link is legit? A poorly reviewed study that missed other factors? Bullshit science that was made up to support an argument?

Yankee Clapper - quick question, do you think the gas stoves-asthma link is legit? A poorly reviewed study that missed other factors? Bullshit science that was made up to support an argument?

Not Yankee Clapper, but quick question: Did any of the UberEats pajama-wearing warriors here happen to notice an actual environmental hazard, one involving a giant toxic mushroom cloud, that took place along the Ohio-Pennsylvania border two weeks ago, which the glorified diversity hire sitting atop the Department of Transportation ignored for 10 days -- and apparently didn't warrant a visit from the EPA administrator for 13?

Do you ever NOT answer a question with a whatabout?

What is an UberEats pajama-wearing warrior? And how is Buttigieg a 'glorfied diversity hire'? Because he's gay?

To answer your question (whether it was intended for me or not) I find most government organizations to be bloated monstrosities that don't really do much of anything. And I think it's absolutely ###### how little recompense Norfolk Southern is actually going to face. At the very least their C level executives should be removed and not allowed to work in the industry again.

The federal government excels at warfare and giving money to old people.

It sucks at pretty much everything else.

What is an UberEats pajama-wearing warrior?

I think they're meant to be the American equivalents of those cheese-eating surrender monkeys from the glory days of the Iraq war.

Yankee Clapper - quick question, do you think the gas stoves-asthma link is legit? A poorly reviewed study that missed other factors? Bullshit science that was made up to support an argument?

I don’t think a sufficient link has been shown to support a draconian regulatory ban of gas stoves, and it is absurd to contend that the bar can be substantially lower if such a ban is prospective-only. My understanding is that the associational studies vary widely, with some showing no link or very low small links, and none have demonstrated a cause & effect link. This short article seems to sum up that view fairly well.

Now I didn’t introduce the topic, and only contributed to reinforce the point made about the Washington Post suggesting conservatives or Republicans were manufacturing illegitimate objections to regulations that weren’t even being proposed, and then shortly thereafter arguing such regulations were actually needed. This thread has evolved in a similar manner.

Good thing we preserved a safe space for the lobbyists and career public sector workers to do their OTP thing!

FTR, I'd like a clarification on who actually decided which books to place "on review" (for over a year now and counting? Was it the school board, or, as TYC likes to say, over and again, it was the librarians? I've read the accounts, and I didn't find anything definitive.

One of the WP articles had a summary that says:

"Books must be approved by a qualified school media specialist, who must undergo a state retraining on book collection. The Education Department did not publish that training until January, leaving school librarians across Florida unable to order books for more than a year". The State of Florida has/will also provide a list of pre-approved books.

Potential penalties for non-compliance include up to five years in prison.

TD and pikepredator, I echo the thanks for sharing your personal stories.

To answer your question (whether it was intended for me or not) I find most government organizations to be bloated monstrosities that don't really do much of anything.

The federal government excels at warfare and giving money to old people.

It sucks at pretty much everything else.

No doubt these were also the careful and reasoned responses to the critiques of the US administrations in the immediate aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and during the early months of COVID.

#250 is NOT an accurate summary of the law. Those provisions don’t apply to all books. Neither #250, nor in all likelihood the WaPo, link to the law. I’ll remedy that when I have time later today.

This article has been here for a week, with no indication of other counties following Duval County’s book banning policy. Equally important, there are no reports of teachers & librarians in other counties being hauled away in paddy wagons for not following the Duval County ‘interpretation’. Florida law doesn’t require review or banning of the Clemente book or similar works.

Do you ever NOT answer a question with a whatabout?

Claims the bloke from way upstate who parachuted into this very conversation with a... whatabout. LOL.

And how is Buttigieg a 'glorfied diversity hire'? Because he's gay?

Please feel free to share Buttigieg's transportation expertise and maybe also compare his background with any recent predecessor nominated by a POTUS. The one who arguably comes closest, Charlotte Mayor Anthony Foxx, an Obama nominee, ran a city nine times the size of South Bend.

I'm not a Florida resident or a lawyer or a librarian, so will happily accept correction. I was just trying to answer Bivens' question.

Here is the text of the law, including this section on Page 6:

"1. Each book made available to students through a school district library media center or included in a recommended or assigned school or grade-level reading list must be selected by a school district employee who holds a valid educational media specialist certificate, regardless of whether the book is purchased, donated, or otherwise made available to students."

My plain reading of that clause is that if teachers have a book in their classroom that has not been formally blessed, then they risk violating the law.

NY Times:

Quitting gas stoves makes sense for the environment and your health.

Gas stoves have ignited a debate in Washington, as mounting evidence shows potential health risks, including a link to childhood asthma.

Also NY Times:

After a train carrying toxic material derailed in Ohio this month, Right-wing commentators have been particularly critical of the response, using the crisis to sow distrust about government agencies and suggest that the damage could be irreparable.

Shorter Gray Lady: Gas stoves kill. Meanwhile, enjoy your phosgene gas, Appalachian losers, your loser pets, and your loser wildlife!

Looking forward, is there any other industry where you support greater regulation?

as long as we're engaging in media criticism of the new york times, let's be clear: the new york times ####### sucks.

This morning, New York Times op-ed columnist Pamela Paul made another play at becoming the paper's least thoughtful dullard, through the publication of an article titled "In Defense of J.K. Rowling." Does an extremely rich and famous person need a paper of record to defend her? Is there anything new to bring to this conversation?

The answer to both questions is no.
[...]
The actual substance of Paul's article (useless, not important, pedantic, boring!) is less important than the timing of its publication. Yesterday, the Times received two open letters, one from GLAAD and one from a collection of Times contributors (including myself and many members of this staff), criticizing the paper's obsessive and fear-mongering coverage of trans healthcare.
[...]
Everyone in leadership at the Times knows that those open letters did not arrive out of the blue; the paper has long been aware of the intense criticism its coverage of trans healthcare has drawn, and by publishing Paul's (totally useless and uninteresting!) column, it has said all it needs to about how seriously it takes those critiques. There is no value in this column beyond provocation, and choosing to publish it the morning after these two open letters were sent shows exactly who the Times hopes to provoke: not people in power, but people who have a right to question them.

otoh, the onion [chef's kiss]:

We firmly believe that it is journalism’s sacred duty to endanger the lives of as many trans people as possible.
[...]
As journalists, it is our obligation to entertain any and all pseudoscience that gives bigotry an intellectual veneer. We must be diligent in laundering our vitriol through the posture of journalistic inquiry, and we must be allowed to fixate on the genitals.
[...]
For more evidence of our time-honored journalistic commitment to endangering lives, please see our previous coverage of gay people, immigrants, Black people, and women.
[...]
Research shows that trans people are over four times more likely than cisgender people to be the victim of a violent crime. We salute our colleagues across the media who are working tirelessly to make that number even higher.

—The Onion Editorial Board

this is their best work in decades.

FTR here's Pamela Paul's defense of Rowling, along with some of the reaction from Times readers.

The insults, lack of substance & whiny tone in the excerpt in #258 suggest that stiggles himself might be the author. A newspaper publishing something you disagree with should be expected, not a cause for a whiny, unhinged rant.

Claims the bloke from way upstate who parachuted into this very conversation with a... whatabout. LOL.

I parachuted in? How did you get here? From where, somewhere more relevant than my own apparently carpetbagging ass? Florida? Pittsburgh? Just ridiculous.

Please also refer to the question you asked that I didn't answer or whatabouted. There's a difference between specifically addressing hypocritical statements with no self-awareness, and answering a question with an unrelated question.

Shorter Gray Lady: Gas stoves kill. Meanwhile, enjoy your phosgene gas, Appalachian losers, your loser pets, and your loser wildlife!

February 5th: Train Derailment in Ohio Sparks Huge Fire and Prompts Evacuations
February 6th: What Toxic Chemicals Were Aboard the Derailed Train in Ohio?
February 6th: Toxic Fumes Are Released From Burning Train That Derailed in Ohio
February 14th: Health and Environmental Fears Remain After Ohio Derailment and Inferno

Is it freeing, Jason, to not care literally at all about the truth? I assume it benefits you somehow, can you explain how?

Is it freeing, Jason, to not care literally at all about the truth? I assume it benefits you somehow, can you explain how?

Where did I claim the Gray Lady ignored the disaster?

Hint: I didn't.

traderdave & pikepredator: Thank you both for sharing and congratulations for all you've both already accomplished. Truly impressive. May the winds be at the backs of you and yours.

----------------------

It's been 103 comments since traderdave shared a personal, relevant anecdote. One-third of the comments in that time are by Clapper or JE, and they offered not one word of acknowledgment to what traderdave said (or pikepredator later added). Character runs deeper than political beliefs, and they've shown who they unquestionably are.

This article has been here for a week, with no indication of other counties following Duval County’s book banning policy.

A Florida County (not Duval) finds these 115 books objectionable
Here's a list of books banned, under review in Central Florida schools (Duval County is Jacksonville)
New Training tells Florida school librarians which books are off limits:

The training was developed by the education department along with a group of stakeholders that included some members of FAME as well as members of the right-wing parent group Moms for Liberty, Daniels said.

“I think the training is 95% where it needs to be and we believe that it is going to be very effective for the state and children in Florida,” said Jennifer Pippin, chair of the Indian River County chapter of Moms for Liberty.

That's just 3 articles from the first page of a Google search "list of florida counties that ban books" with 24,000,000 results.

Obligatory: Who? Who doesn't want to wear the ribbon?

My plain reading of that clause is that if teachers have a book in their classroom that has not been formally blessed, then they risk violating the law.

Thanks for linking to the text, but maybe your reading was a bit rushed? There are no criminal penalties in the law. None at all. The new law simply requires schools to list instructional materials on their website, establish a transparent process for objections to those materials, and maintain a listing of materials removed after objections. It also requires training and professional qualifications for those making selections and decisions on books and instructional materials. In almost all cases removal of non-complying material is the end of the matter.

The criminal penalties that supposedly have teachers & librarians in 2 of Florida’s 67 counties quivering in fear are in a separate pre-existing statute that prohibits anyone, not just school officials, from knowingly giving pornography to minors. Those who don’t wish to wade through the actual text of the law can find the details here.

There’s no good faith interpretation of the ant-pornography law that can suddenly include the Clemente book or similar works. The Duval County stunt is an obvious attempt to discredit the new law by grossly misinterpreting it. That should be obvious to those reporting on the controversy, but many seem to have an agenda or are apparently too lazy to look into the matter. Hope that clears things up, but by all means read the statute linked in #255 if you have any doubt.

That's just 3 articles from the first page of a Google search "list of florida counties that ban books" with 24,000,000 results.

Are any of the books named, "Roberto Clemente: The Pride of the Pittsburgh Pirates?"

And of course, we should definitely trust a publication that, in the article lede, describes the bill in question, not by its actual name or an unbiased description, but by the inaccurate moniker given by the DNC and other critics ("Don't Say Gay").

Obligatory: Who? Who doesn't want to wear the ribbon?

once again:

this is the person who would not wear the ribbon. you can continue to identify with him if you like, but it says more about the content of your character than you likely realize.

And of course, we should definitely trust a publication that, in the article lede, describes the bill in question, not by its actual name or an unbiased description, but by the inaccurate moniker given by the DNC and other critics ("Don't Say Gay").

Here's the same list, without the objectionable language in the title.

Here's the same list, without the objectionable language in the title.

Hey, are you sure that the Naples Daily News isn't secretly funded by George (((Soros)))?

#270 - Not going to weigh in on the larger discussions in this thread, but this is quite a reach. Just because the ACTOR who played Kramer turned out to be a horrible person, doesn't retroactively make the CHARACTER of Kramer the bad guy in that episode. The "ribbon bullies" were and always will be the unreasonable ones in that scene.

Where did I claim the Gray Lady ignored the disaster?
Hint: I didn't.

Please translate

Shorter Gray Lady: Gas stoves kill. Meanwhile, enjoy your phosgene gas, Appalachian losers, your loser pets, and your loser wildlife!

into literary, non-snarky language. You’re annoyed with the NY Times for something regarding this event. What is it?

They said gas stoves can harm your health, but they also said - a LOT more - how much this train derailment can harm your health. Yet you put their reporting on the derailment health hazards as some kind of inferior counter to the gas stove health hazards. How was it somehow dishonest or dismissive - your clear implication - compared to their gas stove position?

#265: JE included this charming statement in #194:

Maybe you will explain to us why "he/him" (of course, Hoehn-Saric has pronouns included in his Twitter bio) any more credible than an industry rep?

given the context of traderdave's revelations, i sure as hell noticed.

#270 - Not going to weigh in on the larger discussions in this thread, but this is quite a reach. Just because the ACTOR who played Kramer turned out to be a horrible person, doesn't retroactively make the CHARACTER of Kramer the bad guy in that episode. The "ribbon bullies" were and always will be the unreasonable ones in that scene.

bill cosby is a great role model for young men. just because the actor playing bill cosby turned out to be a date raping sociopath doesn't retroactively make the character bill cosby a bad person. /s


being able to separate art from its artist is a spirited and ongoing debate that i don't have any real conclusive answer to.

but otoh, maybe certain persons can find a reference that isn't 25 years old, and doesn't portray the guy who talked about hanging a ####### 'n' word by a noose and sticking a fork up his ass as the hero in their cutesy little anecdote. maybe that could even be seen as reasonable middle-ground.

It's been 103 comments since traderdave shared a personal, relevant anecdote. One-third of the comments in that time are by Clapper or JE, and they offered not one word of acknowledgment to what traderdave said (or pikepredator later added). Character runs deeper than political beliefs, and they've shown who they unquestionably are.

What the hell is wrong with you, Lowry? I said nothing about transgender issues in this thread, and nothing in TraderDave or PikePredator’s posts was directed at anything I said in this thread (or elsewhere for that matter). My participation has been mostly responding to disinformation about the ongoing effort to regulate gas stoves, but now you question my character because I didn’t respond to others raising unrelated topics? Really?

I have no disagreement with what TraderDave or PikePredtor posted, or any particular insight on such matters. As a parent myself, I sympathize with other parents doing their best on behalf of their children, as most parents do, but I wasn’t aware I was obligated to affirmatively respond to those who anonymously discuss their own experiences on the Internet.

Since some seem to think I need to opine on the matter: Dealing with the challenge of assisting a child who is uncomfortable in their own skin is no easy task. My guess is that best approach is to encourage children to accept themselves for what they are, even if it doesn’t fit everyone’s stereotype, rather than pushing every tomboy girl and effeminate boy toward opposite-sex hormones and gender assignment surgery at an early age. Those drastic measures aren’t a magic wand, either, and, of course, neither of the posters who addressed their experiences suggested they were.

In #277, I should have been more precise, noting that my participation that didn’t address the thread subject (the Clemente book) has been mostly responding to disinformation about the ongoing effort to regulate gas stoves.

A question to everyone - WHY THE #### DOES ANYBODY FEEL THE NEED TO BAN A ####### BOOK? EVER??!!!

This is such a bullshit, ridiculous thing that just leads to some terrible compromise where 'these books over here need to be banned but I guess we can keep those books there'. It should never, ever come to that. The idea that we are accepting, in any way, of trying to eradicate an idea is atrocious. The polarization of our society is disgraceful. Full stop.

And yes, this applies to white national rhetoric as well - there's no reason it can't be used as an educational discussion. We all should watch Birth of a Nation, read Mein Kampf, The Communist Manifesto, orthe Bible, so we can discuss them, and know what they actually stand for.

In #277, I should have been more precise, noting that my participation that didn’t address the thread subject (the Clemente book) has been mostly responding to disinformation about the ongoing effort to regulate gas stoves.

I don't know about an 'ongoing' effort to regulate them (sure seems like that proposal died pretty hard), but at the very least, the reports on asthma and gas stove lead me to make sure my hood was on while I was cooking tonight.

But in the same vein, no one who wasn't either involved in a mentally ill crisis or legally not allowed to own a gun has ever had their gun taken from them, the same way no one will ever have their stove taken from them.

You realize the gasoline powered car will more than likely be obsolete by the time gas stoves are off the market, right?

... rather than pushing every tomboy girl and effeminate boy toward opposite-sex hormones and gender assignment surgery at an early age.

It's like you didn't even read their posts.

Continuing my rant...

A story to chew on... a couple of years back, when I moved to a new place, my wife and I would notice a pretty powerful exhaust smell when we used the gas oven. Turns out when the thing was installed 25+ years and at least 3 owners ago the correct propane orifice had never been installed. The oven still had the larger natural gas orifice from the factory, meaning for years and years the thing was not properly burning off propane. Simple #### like that can be regulated and incrementally (at the very least) improve our health. There's no reason the propane guy who came and hooked up our tank couldn't have taken 15 minutes and correctly identified/changed the orifice (it's like a $15 part). Without 'big government' telling them to though, it clearly isn't going to happen.

If someone from the gas stove industry tells you that this would take 95% of the gas stoves off the market, instead of clutching pearls and proclaiming the sky is falling, why not take a look at that 5%? Realize there's no reason for gas stoves as a whole to be banned, just meet the crazy leftists somewhere in the middle and improve the overall efficiency of most models? A very similar thing happened with wood burning stoves - a lot of them have catalytic converters on them now for this exact reason. Turns out burning #### poorly is bad for your health and the environment.

A question to everyone - WHY THE #### DOES ANYBODY FEEL THE NEED TO BAN A ####### BOOK? EVER??!!!

This is such a bullshit, ridiculous thing that just leads to some terrible compromise where 'these books over here need to be banned but I guess we can keep those books there'. It should never, ever come to that. The idea that we are accepting, in any way, of trying to eradicate an idea is atrocious. The polarization of our society is disgraceful. Full stop.

And yes, this applies to white national rhetoric as well - there's no reason it can't be used as an educational discussion. We all should watch Birth of a Nation, read Mein Kampf, The Communist Manifesto, or the Bible, so we can discuss them, and know what they actually stand for.

This. A thousand times this.

Most (or at least some) of you know that in one of my former lives I was a book dealer who also sold repro posters I made from whatever striking or unusual images I could find. Most of them were repros of sports programs, but there were also hundreds of historical political images from all possible POV, including those like this, and this, and this. The WP ran a feature story about them called "The Prints of Propaganda".

None of these fell into the category of "gentle satire". They were all racist and shockingly so. But they were real, and a part of history. And in all the years I sold those images, I always noticed that the best customers for them were those whose race or ethnicity were being savagely depicted. And the few objectors to my displaying these posters were invariably White.

Although some of those who bought my White racist posters also bought this one. (smile)

... rather than pushing every tomboy girl and effeminate boy toward opposite-sex hormones and gender assignment surgery at an early age.

It's like you didn't even read their posts.

What, you mean this heartfelt paragraph didn't leave you with the impression that the kid was pushed into it?

The trans talk continued and we said to him that we'd be OK with gender re-assignment but that we would not sponsor it until he was 18. We felt at the time that it should be an adult decision and privately, away from him, we accepted it would probably happen but hoped he'd wait well after 18 to avoid regret over any irrevocable choices or actions. The possibility of that kind of regret really nagged at my wife & me.



I apologize Traderdave, I shouldn't be speaking on your behalf, and definitely do not want to toss you in the middle of a troll's argument. I am just not feeling that whole 'turn the other cheek thing' at the moment. I will shut up now.

The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 17, 2023 at 06:31 PM (#6117685)..

...My guess is that best approach is to encourage children to accept themselves for what they are, even if it doesn’t fit everyone’s stereotype, rather than pushing every tomboy girl and effeminate boy toward opposite-sex hormones and gender assignment surgery at an early age.

- um

neither pike nor dave pushed their child toward ANYTHING gender

they DID actually support who their children ARE instead of trying to force them to be what everyone thinks they look like

you can't seem to not be able to accept this. unlike either of them

#281:

... rather than pushing every tomboy girl and effeminate boy toward opposite-sex hormones and gender assignment surgery at an early age.

It's like you didn't even read their posts.

Well, at least I didn’t truncate their posts in an attempt to suggest something negative that wasn’t there. Try reading #277 again. I specifically noted that neither poster suggested that such treatments should be applied in that matter.

- um

neither pike nor dave pushed their child toward ANYTHING gender

Um, I never suggested they did. Which should have been clear from the sentence that followed the one you quoted, as well as the overall post. Can’t help you if you want try to take that sentence out of context.

this is the person who would not wear the ribbon. you can continue to identify with him if you like, but it says more about the content of your character than you likely realize.

Peter Mehlman, not Michael Richards, wrote that Seinfeld episode, but you continue doing you.

EDIT: Props to Booey.

given the context of traderdave's revelations, i sure as hell noticed.

You might have added the rest of my comment -- the individual in question had been a Democrat Hill staffer -- but that would have blown up your attempted gotcha.

Since some seem to think I need to opine on the matter: Dealing with the challenge of assisting a child who is uncomfortable in their own skin is no easy task. My guess is that best approach is to encourage children to accept themselves for what they are, even if it doesn’t fit everyone’s stereotype, rather than pushing every tomboy girl and effeminate boy toward opposite-sex hormones and gender assignment surgery at an early age. Those drastic measures aren’t a magic wand, either, and, of course, neither of the posters who addressed their experiences suggested they were.

You would think "Don't drug, mutilate, and sterilize your kids who defy gender stereotypes, and are mentally ill or just gay or autistic" wouldn't be controversial among our woke friends, but here we are. Us right wing loons and the radical feminists are the only ones arguing for the protection of gay teens from whack job activists and doctors.

Us right wing loons and the radical feminists are the only ones arguing for the protection of gay teens from whack job activists and doctors.

Not only radical feminists, snapper, but numerous center and center-left ones too. And speaking of protection, if I'm Bari Weiss, I don't walk to the mailbox without an armed bodyguard.

Typo, or autocorrect fail, in my #286 may fuzz up the intended meaning a bit. It was supposed to be “in that manner”, not “matter” in the last sentence.

You would think "Don't drug, mutilate, and sterilize your kids who defy gender stereotypes, and are mentally ill or just gay or autistic" wouldn't be controversial among our woke friends, but here we are. Us right wing loons and the radical feminists are the only ones arguing for the protection of gay teens from whack job activists and doctors.

In the late 90s, one of my students' parents had him forcibly taken him out of his home and to a conversation camp because he was gay. Congratulations, you got your wish for those defying gender stereotypes, because he died there.

You would think "Don't drug, mutilate, and sterilize your kids who defy gender stereotypes, and are mentally ill or just gay or autistic" wouldn't be controversial among our woke friends, but here we are. Us right wing loons and the radical feminists are the only ones arguing for the protection of gay teens from whack job activists and doctors.

The great irony here is that TraderDave very specifically named Snapper as the type of person he wanted to protect his child from.

A question to everyone - WHY THE #### DOES ANYBODY FEEL THE NEED TO BAN A ####### BOOK? EVER??!!!

Of course this is true for adults, but the original subject is about restricting which books are available in an elementary school library. It's not unreasonable to disallow books with adult themes from grade schools, and I doubt this law will lead to outright bans on them.

The issue is that the net these dummies cast trapped some dolphins with the tuna.

Hey, how about those text messages released in the transcripts of the Dominion trial? Wheeeeeeeee! I'm SHOCKED that the FOX night time hosts actually think that Powell and Giuliani are crazy people. I never expected that they'd turn out to be such cynics!

Tucker Carlson takes the cake! For all his whining about "cancel culture" his "fire the reporter who pushed back on Trump's election lies" is ABSOLUTELY DELICIOUS! Yum yum yum.

And yes, this applies to white national rhetoric as well - there's no reason it can't be used as an educational discussion. We all should watch Birth of a Nation, read Mein Kampf, The Communist Manifesto, or the Bible, so we can discuss them, and know what they actually stand for.

We actually had Mein Kampf in my home growing up. (The Spanish translation: Mi Lucha.) I think my dad picked it up at a used bookstore (he's into WWII history). Anyway, I tried to read it in my early teens out of curiosity, but could barely get through the first couple chapters before I gave up on it -- it was just so *dumb*.

And for some reason (certainly not ideological agreement), my grandparents had a copy of Mao's little red quote book. I leafed a bit through it once -- same reaction.

Kids are smarter and more discerning than adults think.

Banning books is about information control. It's one of the first things authoritarian regimes do when they take over. "Protecting the children" is the universal excuse.

if I'm Bari Weiss, I don't walk to the mailbox without an armed bodyguard.

Bari Weiss might need an armed bodyguard to protect all the money she's made since quitting the Times and cashing in on her martyrdom on Substack, where most of her content is written by her wife and various other people. For all her (often justified) complaints about the political conformity in the Times newsroom, 95% of what I see from her daily emails follows a party line every bit as predictable as any ultra-woke progressive's.

Of course this is true for adults, but the original subject is about restricting which books are available in an elementary school library. It's not unreasonable to disallow books with adult themes from grade schools, and I doubt this law will lead to outright bans on them.

Yeah, I know what the original subject was. We shouldn't be banning books for kids. What exactly do you think they are going to read about that would be bad for them?

if I'm Bari Weiss, I don't walk to the mailbox without an armed bodyguard.

fun fact:

if you think you need armed protection at every waking moment, you're not a "centrist", you're a sociopath.


bari weiss /= orhan pamuk.