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Thursday, September 29, 2022

Roger Maris Jr. blasts MLB, says Aaron Judge’s potential 62nd home run should be single-season record

“I think it means a lot, not just for me, I think it means a lot for a lot of people,” he explained. “He’s clean, he’s a Yankee, he plays the game the right way. I think it gives people a chance to look at somebody who should be revered for hitting 62 home runs and not just as a guy who did it in the American League. He should be revered for being the actual single-season home run champ. That’s really who he is if he hits 62 and I think that’s what needs to happen. I think baseball needs to look at the records and I think baseball should do something.”

Maris has shared his opinion on the matter in the past as well, but MLB hasn’t expunged their record books of Bonds’ 73 home runs in 2001, as it still stands to be the number to beat in the regular season. All three players, though, haven’t been inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 29, 2022 at 12:54 PM | 122 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: aaron judge, barry bonds, roger maris

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   1. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: September 29, 2022 at 01:59 PM (#6098345)
I get that it is not the same people making these two sets of decisions, but it seems to me that either:

1) Bonds, et al, receive a Hall of Fame process that treats their numbers is legit, and consequently (obviously) inducted them into the HOF, while treating their statistics as official records; or

2) They get the behavior they have received from the HOF, and their numbers are (at a minimum) treated with an asterisk.

But what we have now is that they get treated for history as out of the club, but treated for records-keeping as in the club.

Me? I'd do the first set of options, and put in the HOF, treating their numbers as legit records. If you don't, how do you know who else we should be "discounting" as well? If Manny Alexander can get caught using steroids (he of 15 career HRs and OPS+ of 56 fame), then who the f*** knows who used and didn't use?
   2. JJ1986 Posted: September 29, 2022 at 02:10 PM (#6098347)
Reporters don't need to print obvious bullshit just because it comes as a quote.
   3. JJ1986 Posted: September 29, 2022 at 02:13 PM (#6098348)
All three players, though, haven’t been inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame.
All four*
   4. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: September 29, 2022 at 02:20 PM (#6098350)
Sorry, there wasn't even a PED testing regimen for MLB players until 2003 and no penalties were introduced until the following year.
   5. Stevey Posted: September 29, 2022 at 02:23 PM (#6098351)
   6. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 29, 2022 at 02:24 PM (#6098352)
I don't even recognize Maris' HR record as legit, IMO, my dad has the home run record.
   7. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: September 29, 2022 at 02:29 PM (#6098353)
I don't even recognize Maris' HR record as legit, IMO, my dad has the home run record.
You too are someone with a vested interested in remaining relevant.
   8. villageidiom Posted: September 29, 2022 at 02:29 PM (#6098354)
Barry Bonds did, in fact, hit 73 home runs in 2001. It is, in fact, the most home runs hit in a season by one player in MLB history.

There's no longer an asterisk next to Maris' total because at some point we recognized that asterisks are stupid.
   9. Ron J Posted: September 29, 2022 at 03:06 PM (#6098357)
#8 Never was an asterisk. Just something Happy Chandler discussed as an option.
   10. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 29, 2022 at 03:08 PM (#6098358)
Maris's 61 has an asterisk next to it due to whining by his offspring.

   11. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: September 29, 2022 at 03:14 PM (#6098359)
I'm just not sure why so many people are so certain Judge isn't juicing. His physique isn't notably svelte. There's every likelihood that he just hasn't been caught.
   12. Ron J Posted: September 29, 2022 at 03:25 PM (#6098361)
The "evidence" against Sammy Sosa is in the same general range as that.

And JE is right about Bonds. Like it or not, Bonds wasn't breaking baseball rules at the time. And the way the laws were written at the time it would have been impossible to prosecute him for using the designer drugs I'll stipulate he was using at the time.

Not that you could ever make a case against Bonds without Greg Anderson's testimony and Anderson simply would not testify.
   13. Booey Posted: September 29, 2022 at 03:36 PM (#6098363)
The record books aren't subjective. They're just a dry recording of the facts. The Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa seasons all happened. Wishing they didn't doesn't change anything.

Now, it's certainly subjective and open for debate about whether a "clean" 61 is more impressive than a PED fueled 70+, but again, record books aren't ranking feats in order of impressiveness. The dead ball era pitching numbers aren't possible anymore, but they're still in the books - without asterisks - as they should be. IMO Gwynn's .394, Brett's .390, and Carew's .388 are all more impressive than all the .400 avg's of the 1920's, but they're still rightfully placed lower on the single season lists because...well, they are lower, and that's indisputable. No numbers should be asterisked for any reason.

Edit: I'm also glad Judge himself doesn't buy into Maris Jr's bullsh!t. The American League record is plenty impressive enough already. Just enjoy the feat for what it is.
   14. Karl from NY Posted: September 29, 2022 at 03:51 PM (#6098364)
The American League record means nothing. It's an arbitrary grouping of teams by historic accident. It's just as relevant as "city names beginning with N through Z" or any other random subset of half of them. This whole thing is artificial headline chasing for what will be something like the 6th highest total historically.
   15. Booey Posted: September 29, 2022 at 03:55 PM (#6098365)
Another obvious flaw in asterisking PED numbers of course is that the Maris Jr types are inconsistent and unfair with how they do it. As others have noted, remove the seasons with proven PED ties and Judge and Maris Sr still don't top the list; Sosa would hold the top 3 spots (at least until Judge hits a few more). The "guilt by association" narrative that's dogged Sammy isn't fair by any rational argument. An anonymous source telling the NYT that his name was on a list that's never been revealed to the public? Sorry, but "Trust me, bro" doesn't qualify as evidence.
   16. Jose is Absurdly Correct but not Helpful Posted: September 29, 2022 at 04:00 PM (#6098368)
For all the hubbub about the HRs the Triple Crown is a lot more interesting and exciting to me as a fan.
   17. Booey Posted: September 29, 2022 at 04:10 PM (#6098369)
#14 - Normally that's true; most baseball fans probably didn't even know - and none of the ones who did cared - that Hack Wilson held the single season NL HR record for 68 years until Mac and Sammy passed it in '98.

I've made the comparison before, but Judge hitting 62+ is like a batter hitting .400, or a pitcher winning 30 games. Those aren't records either, but they're monumental milestones that barely even seem possible anymore, so it makes sense that fans would get excited about them the same way they would for actual records. Ditto with Triple Crowns (which Judge might also do). Similarly, even for those of us who aren't aghast at the PED numbers of a couple decades past, in the testing era 60+ homer seasons feel like the product of a bygone era too (especially since all his closest competitors are around 20 homers behind).
   18. Booey Posted: September 29, 2022 at 04:25 PM (#6098371)
#16 - Ditto, actually. But TBF, we did see a Triple Crown 10 years ago, whereas we hadn't seen a 60 homer season in 21 years. And I do think the current hitting environment is more conducive to Triple Crowns (i.e. it's possible to lead the league with a .313 avg) than it is to 60+ homer seasons.
   19. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 29, 2022 at 04:49 PM (#6098372)
I don't remember any hoopla over Ryan Howard or Giancarlo Stanton when they approached 60 HR, was it just because they were in the NL?
   20. John Northey Posted: September 29, 2022 at 04:59 PM (#6098375)
I suspect 99% of the crap we're seeing is due to Judge being a Yankee. As others have said, if he was a Royal would anyone have given a damn? It would've been 'wow, 61 HR, very nice but call me when he gets to 73'. Also a good point is all the * we could put on Maris - did it in 162, not 154 games, a very good chance he was on amphetamines (aka "Greenies") as many MLB players were at the time (and right up until they were tested for) among other things given no testing was done back then. Heck, Ruth broke every rule in the book when he played and was proud of it, safe to say if he had access to steroids he'd have been super-pumped up on them.

Should we say Gaylord Perry didn't win 300? He did it with the spitball which was illegal in MLB at the time he played and he was caught too. Bonds wasn't. Sosa wasn't. McGwire had stuff in his locker but never was punished for it.
   21. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 29, 2022 at 05:09 PM (#6098378)
I get that it is not the same people making these two sets of decisions, but it seems to me that either:

1) Bonds, et al, receive a Hall of Fame process that treats their numbers is legit, and consequently (obviously) inducted them into the HOF, while treating their statistics as official records; or

2) They get the behavior they have received from the HOF, and their numbers are (at a minimum) treated with an asterisk.

But what we have now is that they get treated for history as out of the club, but treated for records-keeping as in the club.


That's because records are objective, while HoF qualifications are subjective. It's not that complicated. As a zillion people have pointed out, we all get to make our own decisions as to whether or not to apply our personal asterisks to those records, and the split over that is almost as unresolvable as the split between the MAGA crowd and Liz Cheney.

And FTR there never was any "asterisk" applied to Maris's record. In the decades following 1961, the Sporting News Official Record Book simply made a distinction between a 154 game season and a 162 game season, the same way that it also made a notation of the seasons that were 140 games, when the distinction seemed relevant.

Right now the AL record for a 154 game season is jointly held by Ruth and Judge with 60, and (so far) for the 162 game season it's jointly held by Maris and Judge at 61. Of course now there's no such distinction in the record books, but I wonder what the reaction would be if the season got expanded to the old PCL schedules of over 190 games. Should records set under those conditions also be able to compete against today's record holders as if the extra 30+ games were irrelevant?
   22. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 29, 2022 at 05:12 PM (#6098379)
I suspect 99% of the crap we're seeing is due to Judge being a Yankee. As others have said, if he was a Royal would anyone have given a damn? It would've been 'wow, 61 HR, very nice but call me when he gets to 73'.

Right, just like George Brett's and Tony Gwynn's quests for .400 were ignored because they weren't Yankees. IIRC the reaction wasn't ".400 would be nice, but call me when they get to .424".
   23. Booey Posted: September 29, 2022 at 05:17 PM (#6098381)
#19 - Maybe. There was no even minor record (such as a league record) they were chasing. Howard's 58 homer season also came just 5 years after Barry's 73, so "Most HR's in 5 years!" isn't as impressive as hitting the most in 20+.

Also, neither Howard nor Stanton dominated the league to the degree that Judge has. Even ignoring the other stats (WAR, OPS+, slugging) - and the potential Triple Crown - there was another 50 homer slugger right behind them to make what they were doing stand out less. Ortiz hit 54 in 2006 when Howard had his 58, and a rookie - Judge - had 52 when Stanton had his 59 (although Giancarlo did lead his own league by 20). Judge has 61 when the next closest slugger in MLB has 42, a difference we haven't seen since Ruth. That's something.
   24. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: September 29, 2022 at 05:19 PM (#6098382)
The "evidence" against Sammy Sosa is in the same general range as that.


Exactly my point.
   25. Booey Posted: September 29, 2022 at 05:22 PM (#6098383)
#20 - Yes, a Royal on the verge of passing Maris AND potentially winning a Triple Crown while leading the majors in homers by a margin not seen in 90+ years would get plenty of media attention, I believe.
   26. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 29, 2022 at 05:25 PM (#6098384)
FWIW Judge has also surpassed Mickey Mantle's Triple Crown year TB total (384 to 376), and matched his 130 RBI in spite of batting 1st or 2nd for much of the year.
   27. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 29, 2022 at 05:56 PM (#6098386)
I'm just not sure why so many people are so certain Judge isn't juicing. His physique isn't notably svelte. There's every likelihood that he just hasn't been caught.
There’s no actual evidence for this asserted ‘likelihood’, just PED-McCarthyism.
   28. SoSH U at work Posted: September 29, 2022 at 06:12 PM (#6098387)
I suspect 99% of the crap we're seeing is due to Judge being a Yankee. As others have said, if he was a Royal would anyone have given a damn? It would've been 'wow, 61 HR, very nice but call me when he gets to 73'. Also a good point is all the * we could put on Maris - did it in 162, not 154 games, a very good chance he was on amphetamines (aka "Greenies") as many MLB players were at the time (and right up until they were tested for) among other things given no testing was done back then. Heck, Ruth broke every rule in the book when he played and was proud of it, safe to say if he had access to steroids he'd have been super-pumped up on them.

Should we say Gaylord Perry didn't win 300? He did it with the spitball which was illegal in MLB at the time he played and he was caught too. Bonds wasn't. Sosa wasn't. McGwire had stuff in his locker but never was punished for it.


You're kind of all over the place here. Bonds failed an amps test (unlike Maris). Sosa was busted using a corked bat.


#20 - Yes, a Royal on the verge of passing Maris AND potentially winning a Triple Crown while leading the majors in homers by a margin not seen in 90+ years would get plenty of media attention, I believe.

#20 - Yes, a Royal on the verge of passing Maris AND potentially winning a Triple Crown while leading the majors in homers by a margin not seen in 90+ years would get plenty of media attention, I believe.


Brett's pursuit of .400 wasn't damaged by his mailing address.

   29. Walt Davis Posted: September 29, 2022 at 06:34 PM (#6098388)
The AL record has been very convenient -- it allows MLB and the media to play up the "clean" record without having to call it the "clean record." If this wasn't the AL record, there'd be a lot more Maris Jr's (and the counter-arguers like me) making our lives miserable. Folks like me agree that it's the AL record, other folks get to wink/nudge that the AL record is the real record so there's no controversy. Let sleeping dogs lie. If ESPN can attract extra viewers to watch the pursuit of the AL record then just acknowledge it's smart marketing and move on.
   30. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: September 29, 2022 at 06:34 PM (#6098389)
He’s clean, he’s a Yankee, he plays the game the right way


Well that settles it for me, thanks for coming. Especially since he's a Yankee, that's the clincher!
   31. Howie Menckel Posted: September 29, 2022 at 06:37 PM (#6098390)
FWIW Judge has also surpassed Mickey Mantle's Triple Crown year TB total (384 to 376), and matched his 130 RBI in spite of batting 1st or 2nd for much of the year.

Mantle tended to bat a little behind Bobby "The Outmaker" Richardson, who from 1961-66 finished 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st, and 5th in the category.

also, pitchers batted during all of Mantle's career and none of Judge's.....
   32. SoSH U at work Posted: September 29, 2022 at 06:49 PM (#6098391)
Mantle tended to bat a little behind Bobby "The Outmaker" Richardson, who from 1961-66 finished 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st, and 5th in the category.


Not in his Triple Crown year, though the pitcher's spot and the low OBPs of Hank Bauer and mediocre player Billy Martin would have dampened his RBI totals all the same.
   33. Booey Posted: September 29, 2022 at 06:57 PM (#6098393)
I agree with #29. Whatever the fans and media's real reasons are for cheering on Judge's season, the bottom line is that (at least temporarily) people care about baseball numbers again in a way they haven't for a long time and I wasn't sure if they ever would again. And I don't see how any longtime baseball lover could think that's a bad thing.
   34. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: September 29, 2022 at 07:26 PM (#6098395)
Steroids have saved baseball once again! Maybe this time we'll be more grateful for them.
   35. BDC Posted: September 29, 2022 at 08:46 PM (#6098398)
I was looking this up the other day for some reason: Mickey Mantle batted .444 with runners in scoring position in 1956. Then in the next three seasons, .345, .274, and .206. His RBI totals went 130, 94, 97, 75 over those four seasons (1956-59). PAs with RISP: 154, 174, 157, 150. So a big factor in his RBI production was his own hitting – though of course some of that is just the vagaries of not-huge samples from year to year.
   36. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: September 29, 2022 at 09:22 PM (#6098403)
Then in the next three seasons, .345, .274, and .206


How does that correlate with his intake of alcohol? Is there a table whereby BA/# whisky shots is located so I can confirm my suspicions?
   37. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: September 29, 2022 at 09:44 PM (#6098408)
There’s no actual evidence for this asserted ‘likelihood’, just PED-McCarthyism.


Yes, you missed the point entirely.

We've both been around here for 20 years, man. Do you really think I was just going BARF BARF EVERYBODY'S ON ROIDS IT'S ALL ILLEGITIMATE?
   38. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 29, 2022 at 09:44 PM (#6098409)
The Yankees' overall OBP in 1956 was .347, even with pitchers batting. In 2022 it's been .325 with the DH, and without Judge's .425 it'd been a fair amount lower than that.

P. S. Bobby Richardson had 7 AB that year.

----------

I was looking this up the other day for some reason: Mickey Mantle batted .444 with runners in scoring position in 1956. Then in the next three seasons, .345, .274, and .206. His RBI totals went 130, 94, 97, 75 over those four seasons (1956-59). PAs with RISP: 154, 174, 157, 150. So a big factor in his RBI production was his own hitting – though of course some of that is just the vagaries of not-huge samples from year to year.

Not entirely by coincidence, Mantle's strikeout numbers from 1956 to 1960 were 99, 75, 120, 126, 125. His SA went like this: .705, .665, .592, .514, .558. For a normal mortal those were very good numbers, but he didn't regain his 1956-57 form again until 1961, which also not coincidentally was the year he stopped getting routinely booed in Yankee Stadium.
   39. Bruce Chen's Huge Panamanian Robot Posted: September 29, 2022 at 10:26 PM (#6098411)
Why should I care what Roger Maris Jr. thinks about anything?
   40. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 29, 2022 at 10:34 PM (#6098412)
No more reason than why anyone should care about what the Barry Bonds Chowder and Marching Society thinks. In case you haven't figured it out by now, all this is nothing but conflicting philosophical opinions about ethics in sport, conflicting opinions that aren't likely to be resolved anytime soon.
   41. Cooper Nielson Posted: September 29, 2022 at 10:55 PM (#6098414)
Why should I care what Roger Maris Jr. thinks about anything?

Seriously. "World-famous baseball and pharmacological expert Roger Maris's Son knows which home runs are legitimate and which are not. You won't believe what he thinks about #13 on this list."
   42. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: September 29, 2022 at 10:57 PM (#6098415)
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Maris family embrace Mac and Sammy in 1998?
   43. SoSH U at work Posted: September 29, 2022 at 11:00 PM (#6098416)
The Yankees' overall OBP in 1956 was .347, even with pitchers batting. In 2022 it's been .325 with the DH, and without Judge's .425 it'd been a fair amount lower than that.


It's a little tough to figure. Judge has had 230 ABs with men on and hit .322 (BA)/.652 (SLG). With RISP, he's had 103 ABs and hit .350 with a .728 SLG.

Mantle had 237 ABs with with men on and hit .392/.764. With RISP, he had 108 ABs and went a holy #### .444/.861.

So the Mick had more opportunities with men on and hit quite a bit better with more pop.

   44. Howie Menckel Posted: September 29, 2022 at 11:33 PM (#6098422)
Why should I care what Roger Maris Jr. thinks about anything?

you don't have to - and when you see a headline, you move on.

but plenty of baseball fans do care what he thinks, even while recognizing that he isn't exactly an unbiased source.

I understand not caring - and I'm more in that camp.

but that idea that "this isn't news" or "why is anyone writing this?" strikes me as a little bizarre. it's relevant to a significant number of fans for a variety of reasons. it's worth a story.
   45. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: September 29, 2022 at 11:35 PM (#6098423)
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Maris family embrace Mac and Sammy in 1998?
Even better, the Maris family was in the house on the night McGwire hit no. 62:
"When he hit it, I felt like I'd been electrocuted," said Roger Maris Jr., 39. "I had goose bumps the size of baseballs in my body. Tears came to my eyes watching him go around the bases.

"I think he signaled to us when he pointed up to the sky as if to say, 'I know your dad is watching.'"
   46. Walt Davis Posted: September 30, 2022 at 12:26 AM (#6098431)
Why should I care what Roger Maris Jr. thinks about anything?

Because he's the son of Roger Maris Sr, the One True HR King, duh! :-) I do wonder how much play this got in the alternate universe where Roger Maris named his son James. :-)

No more reason than why anyone should care about what the Barry Bonds Chowder and Marching Society thinks.

Huh? Nobody's heard a peep out of us since we got bought out by a Turkish spambot 5 years ago.
   47. SoSH U at work Posted: September 30, 2022 at 12:26 AM (#6098432)
As much as I don't give a rat's ass about what Lil' Maris has to say, I don't think the fact he once embraced Sosa and McGwire says a whole lot. Most of baseball fandom was operating under the assumption these guys were clean (when Wilstein [I think that's who it was] ID'd Androstenedione in Mac's locker, the reporter was the one who faced criticism). That Raj jr. now considers Mac and Sammy as big, mean cheaters just puts him on par with about half of the baseball-watching public.
   48. DFA Posted: September 30, 2022 at 12:51 AM (#6098434)
Ethics really are situational. A pox on all our houses.
   49. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 30, 2022 at 07:44 AM (#6098436)
The Yankees' overall OBP in 1956 was .347, even with pitchers batting. In 2022 it's been .325 with the DH, and without Judge's .425 it'd been a fair amount lower than that.

It's a little tough to figure. Judge has had 230 ABs with men on and hit .322 (BA)/.652 (SLG). With RISP, he's had 103 ABs and hit .350 with a .728 SLG.

Mantle had 237 ABs with with men on and hit .392/.764. With RISP, he had 108 ABs and went a holy #### .444/.861.

So the Mick had more opportunities with men on and hit quite a bit better with more pop.


SoSH,

Thanks for the numbers. I was at Griffith Stadium on Opening Day that year when Mantle hit 40% of the home runs that ever were hit over that mammoth ballpark's high CF wall in its 51 years of existence, and it wasn't hard for even an 11 year old to sense that he was about to have a very special season.

As much as I don't give a rat's ass about what Lil' Maris has to say, I don't think the fact he once embraced Sosa and McGwire says a whole lot.

In addition to what you've already pointed out, there's also the fact that McGwire hit #62 while playing in the same city where Maris ended his career. And after he retired, Gussie Busch awarded him a beer franchise that set him up financially for life. It would have been more than a little surprising if Maris Jr. hadn't been there to congratulate McGwire.
   50. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: September 30, 2022 at 07:47 AM (#6098438)
As much as I don't give a rat's ass about what Lil' Maris has to say, I don't think the fact he once embraced Sosa and McGwire says a whole lot. Most of baseball fandom was operating under the assumption these guys were clean (when Wilstein [I think that's who it was] ID'd Androstenedione in Mac's locker, the reporter was the one who faced criticism). That Raj jr. now considers Mac and Sammy as big, mean cheaters just puts him on par with about half of the baseball-watching public.
What it pretty plainly says is that his opinion meant little then and it means little now.
   51. Banta Posted: September 30, 2022 at 08:13 AM (#6098440)
Bonds, et al, receive a Hall of Fame process that treats their numbers is legit, and consequently (obviously) inducted them into the HOF, while treating their statistics as official records


Personally, I think the solution is obvious. Rebrand the HoF or create a new wing as the Hall of Infamy, only induct players with some scandalous aspect to their careers, and then people can go there just to scoff and feel morally superior. Oh, people will come. For reasons they’re not really sure, but they’ll show up, in record numbers, at induction ceremonies just to throw needles at Barry Bonds, cork at Sammy Sosa, and one of those automated betting machines at Pete Rose. For it’s contrived outrage they have and peace they lack.
   52. SoSH U at work Posted: September 30, 2022 at 08:26 AM (#6098441)
What it pretty plainly says is that his opinion meant little then and it means little now.


No argument there.

   53. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 30, 2022 at 09:10 AM (#6098444)
So whose opinion about "the 'real' home run record" does matter? Show me someone who claims objectivity on this topic, and I'll show you a liar.

The only objective facts are those listed in the record books. How we choose to contextualize and interpret those facts is just subjective opinion, whether you're Roger Maris Jr. or Bill James.
   54. SoSH U at work Posted: September 30, 2022 at 09:19 AM (#6098445)
So whose opinion about "the 'real' home run record" does matter?


Nobody's. Everybody's. The point is, Jr.'s opinion means no more or less than any other boob out there.
   55. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: September 30, 2022 at 09:41 AM (#6098446)
So whose opinion about "the 'real' home run record" does matter? Show me someone who claims objectivity on this topic, and I'll show you a liar.
I'm not sure anyone here is clamoring for "objectivity" but a baseball historian, meaning anyone from John Thorn to Bruce Markusen, would seem more sensible, as they're asked for comment on matters that don't only pertain to their pop's accomplishments.

And what SoSH just said.
   56. JJ1986 Posted: September 30, 2022 at 09:52 AM (#6098447)
but plenty of baseball fans do care what he thinks, even while recognizing that he isn't exactly an unbiased source.
Fans care because they agree with what Maris Jr. is saying. They would care just as much if he were someone else with a scintilla of relevance.
   57. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: September 30, 2022 at 10:04 AM (#6098448)
There’s no actual evidence for this asserted ‘likelihood’, just PED-McCarthyism.

Donning my sportswriter's cap, the evidence is the home run total, just like it was c.1998-2001. Everyone in MLB history who has hit more than 61 HR in a season (and it's an open question about Maris) has links to PED use.
   58. bobm Posted: September 30, 2022 at 10:12 AM (#6098449)
[9] #8 Never was an asterisk. Just something Happy Chandler Ford Frick discussed as an option.

That anyone ever thought there was an asterisk is at least as much the fault of the New York Daily News’ Dick Young as of Commissioner Ford Frick. Frick worshiped Ruth and was at his bedside the day before he died (and made much of that in interviews and after-dinner speeches). Maris had the bad luck to have his greatest season in 1961 at a time when Frick was commissioner of baseball. As early as July 17, when Maris and several sluggers were ahead of Babe Ruth’s 1927 pace, Frick, apparently distressed that the new 162-game season would give someone an unfair crack at Ruth’s record, called a press conference and issued this ruling:

‘Any player who has hit more than 60 home runs during his club’s first 154 games would be recognized as having established a new record. However, if the player does not hit more than 60 until after this club has played 154 games, there would have to be some distinctive mark on the record books to show that Babe Ruth’s record was set under a 154-game schedule.'”

In his biography of Maris, 'Roger Maris, A Man for All Seasons', my late New Jersey neighbor Maury Allen got it right. Dick Young, he said, called out loud “Maybe you should use an asterisk on the new record. Everybody does that when there’s a difference of opinion.


Roger Maris and the Myth of the Asterisk
   59. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 30, 2022 at 11:23 AM (#6098457)
So whose opinion about "the 'real' home run record" does matter?

Nobody's. Everybody's. The point is, Jr.'s opinion means no more or less than any other boob out there.


Totally agree, including every Primate boob who's ever posted here on this subject.

As for Maris Jr., maybe we can just say that his opinion is countered by Judge's, bringing us back to Square One.

---------------

‘Any player who has hit more than 60 home runs during his club’s first 154 games would be recognized as having established a new record. However, if the player does not hit more than 60 until after this club has played 154 games, there would have to be some distinctive mark on the record books to show that Babe Ruth’s record was set under a 154-game schedule.'”

The "distinctive mark" was simply two separate lines in the then-official record book,**, one for a 154 game season, and the other for a 162 game season.

And I'm still waiting to hear what was wrong with that 154 / 162 game distinction. What if global warming enabled the season to be extended to 198 games? Should Shohei Ohtani III's 74 home run season wipe Barry Bonds' 73 off of the books, as if the 36 extra games didn't matter? What's the difference, other than degree, between that hypothetical case and the case of 154 / 162?

** The Sporting News-issued One For The Book
   60. sunday silence (again) Posted: September 30, 2022 at 11:27 AM (#6098459)
the click bait silliness of modern news is just annoying as fck. Today I'm reading the crap on Facebook and the headline is:

Weather CHannel's Jim Catore hit by tree.

Jeezus ####! What the hell is he doing out there anyways? Reads the story. He was hit by a tree BRANCH.
   61. sunday silence (again) Posted: September 30, 2022 at 11:30 AM (#6098460)
#8 Never was an asterisk. Just something Happy Chandler Ford Frick discussed as an option.


BUt there kind of was. As Andy touched on, just above. If you read the World Almanac back in the 60s it clearly made note that Maris's record was set in a 162 game season and Ruth's season was 154. I dont know if an asterisk was used, but they clearly mentioned both records so there was some sort of special treatment given to the subject.
   62. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: September 30, 2022 at 11:38 AM (#6098462)
 61. sunday silence (again) Posted: September 30, 2022 at 11:30 AM (#6098460)
#8 Never was an asterisk. Just something Happy Chandler Ford Frick discussed as an option.


BUt there kind of was. As Andy touched on, just above. If you read the World Almanac back in the 60s it clearly made note that Maris's record was set in a 162 game season and Ruth's season was 154. I dont know if an asterisk was used, but they clearly mentioned both records so there was some sort of special treatment given to the subject.


Shouldn't this post have an asterisk?
   63. Mefisto Posted: September 30, 2022 at 11:51 AM (#6098464)
It's pretty silly to create a line in the record book based on "number of games in the season" rather than "number of PAs the player got".
   64. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 30, 2022 at 12:24 PM (#6098470)
Except that "number of games in the season" requires only two line entries, as opposed to hundreds of lines. But of course batting and pitching leader rate categories are based on a minimum number of PAs.
   65. Mefisto Posted: September 30, 2022 at 12:56 PM (#6098474)
It wouldn't require any extra lines at all. It would just have required somebody to notice that Maris had a whole 7 extra PAs more than Ruth, so the "8 extra games" was misleading if not meaningless and Maris held the record.
   66. Jobu is silent on the changeup Posted: September 30, 2022 at 01:34 PM (#6098478)
Hasn't the Maris family supported anyone whose success got cameras pointed at the Maris family?
   67. base ball chick Posted: September 30, 2022 at 02:02 PM (#6098485)
63. Mefisto Posted: September 30, 2022 at 11:51 AM (#6098464)

It's pretty silly to create a line in the record book based on "number of games in the season" rather than "number of PAs the player got".


- pls stop saying rational, sensible stuff. now i am all confused.

i hope that judge hits another homah just to shut maris jr the eff up

and yeah, we do not know if judge does drugs or not, just that he never had a positive test. but we have decided he's clean, based on exactly nothing, unlike lousy inliss speaking sammy because judge never got caught trying to hit with a corked bat because we all know that using a corked bat is the same as doing drugs. and besides, sammy played very loud music in the clubhouse that was not in inliss so that seals the deal

me i wanna see judge get the triple crown. now THAT is much more awesome
   68. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 30, 2022 at 02:08 PM (#6098488)
It wouldn't require any extra lines at all. It would just have required somebody to notice that Maris had a whole 7 extra PAs more than Ruth, so the "8 extra games" was misleading if not meaningless and Maris held the record.

That's a nice system for a parallel universe. Funny how nobody's ever thought of it before. But if you just say "a season is a season", then you're in line with the current version of the record book, which should satisfy you.
   69. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 30, 2022 at 02:15 PM (#6098489)
i hope that judge hits another homah just to shut maris jr the eff up

Actually Maris Jr. is openly rooting for that to happen, before Judge's home fans over the weekend.
Maris was only 3 when his father broke Ruth’s record, and said that he remembers nothing of it. He does recall growing up around people who constantly asked his father about it, so he heard plenty of stories. Now, it is time for a new story to be told, and Maris is enthusiastically pushing for Judge to write it with his bat, and soon.

The Yankees have three more games at Yankee Stadium against the Baltimore Orioles this weekend and then four in Arlington, Texas, against the Rangers. Maris is confident the A.L. record will be broken before the team heads south.

“You can tell he’s back and he’s ready to go,” Maris said. “I think it will happen in New York and it’s where you want it to happen. It’s where I want it to happen. The city of New York deserves it. The fans deserve it. It will be great for baseball if it happens in New York. Like I mentioned to Aaron, ‘Get to New York and hit 62, and knock the top off Yankee Stadium.’”
   70. SoSH U at work Posted: September 30, 2022 at 02:19 PM (#6098490)
I'm with you Andy. I never saw an issue with having separate lines for 154-game season record holders and 162-game ones, where applicable. Not as an attempt to diminish the accomplishment of the single-season record holder, but just as a source of information. I see nothing wrong with Single Season Hits: 162 Games, Ichiro Suzuki 262*; 154 Games, George Sisler, 157.

* And, because it matters to Mefisto, the PA difference between the two was substantial.
   71. Hombre Brotani Posted: September 30, 2022 at 02:40 PM (#6098494)
Weather CHannel's Jim Catore hit by tree.

Jeezus ####! What the hell is he doing out there anyways? Reads the story. He was hit by a tree BRANCH.
Weather Channel's Jim Catore hit by tree*.
   72. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: September 30, 2022 at 02:53 PM (#6098495)
Way back when the rumors stated flying heavily about Mac and Barry (2005?), I mildly suggested on this site that I would guess Arod also was using. I got shouted down for making irresponsible accusations, and that anybody could tell that little Alex was a very good boy. (Ok that last part was a slight exaggeration.)

I merely suggested that if I had to make an even bet, I would happily take the over on Arod being a juicer as well, knowing virtually nothing else about him except that many other players were surely doing it too and he was hitting a whole lot of home runs.

FWIW, I have made the same argument for Kim Kardashian having butt enhancements, despite her (former?) denials. Pure probability.

If I had to guess, would I say Judge is using something? Yes. Even if so I wouldn't judge him too much for it. I think a lot of players are likely (still) using.
   73. pikepredator Posted: September 30, 2022 at 03:05 PM (#6098496)
IMO Gwynn's .394, Brett's .390, and Carew's .388 are all more impressive than all the .400 avg's of the 1920's, but they're still rightfully placed lower on the single season lists because...well, they are lower, and that's indisputable. No numbers should be asterisked for any reason.


Amen to this. I still get excited about the idea of a .400 chase. I'm all-in on modern metrics of measuring value, but even as a Red Sox fan I'm rooting for Judge to win the Triple Crown simply because it IS an impressive accomplishment and I haven't shed the magic that was imbued by being a kid in the 80's. Ditto Gonsolin's 16-1 and Wright's 20 wins.
   74. Darren Posted: September 30, 2022 at 03:53 PM (#6098501)
Right now the AL record for a 154 game season is jointly held by Ruth and Judge with 60,


Is that how it works now? Because I don't think that's how it works.
   75. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 30, 2022 at 04:08 PM (#6098502)
I'm with you Andy. I never saw an issue with having separate lines for 154-game season record holders and 162-game ones, where applicable. Not as an attempt to diminish the accomplishment of the single-season record holder, but just as a source of information.

Exactly. And as someone who followed Maris's quest religiously on a day-to-day basis,** I'm the last person who'd want to diminish his accomplishment.

** And witnessed 8 of those 61 home runs in person, 4 each in Griffith and Yankee Stadium

---------------

Right now the AL record for a 154 game season is jointly held by Ruth and Judge with 60,

Is that how it works now? Because I don't think that's how it works.

By that I didn't mean officially, only informally. It only means that Judge matched Ruth within 154 games, whereas Maris didn't. Just a point of random information.
   76. Astroenteritis Posted: September 30, 2022 at 04:20 PM (#6098505)
Is it too much to ask that we simply enjoy a player having a really great season?
   77. SoSH U at work Posted: September 30, 2022 at 04:34 PM (#6098510)
Is that how it works now? Because I don't think that's how it works.


To me that's not how it would work, either officially or unofficially.
   78. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: September 30, 2022 at 05:16 PM (#6098514)
Judge only hit 1 HR in his first 13 games this season, so he's got 7 more games to hit 61 in 154 anyway. Why the bias towards the first week of the season rather than the last? The whole thing is idiotic.
   79. Darren Posted: September 30, 2022 at 06:14 PM (#6098518)
Let's not forget the records for:

144 game season: Albert Belle, 50
~115 game season: Matt Williams, 43
   80. Darren Posted: September 30, 2022 at 06:40 PM (#6098519)
Is it too much to ask that we simply enjoy a player having a really great season?


Who let the voice of reason in here?
   81. John DiFool2 Posted: September 30, 2022 at 06:51 PM (#6098521)
#78: Maris also had a slow start, c. 1 HR in his 1st 12 games.
   82. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: September 30, 2022 at 07:36 PM (#6098526)
Didn't know that. I'm seeing just 1 HR in April, out of 15 games. It came in his 11th game too, so he had 61 in the last 154 (actually 152) games of the season. Plenty good enough for me.
   83. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: October 01, 2022 at 04:03 PM (#6098621)
There are those who say the superballs are still flowing out of the bat today.
   84. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 02, 2022 at 08:01 AM (#6098718)
And people are saying that Biden stole the election.
   85. Ron J Posted: October 02, 2022 at 10:34 AM (#6098724)
Yes. Of course it was Frick not Chandler. I blame Obama.
   86. Ron J Posted: October 02, 2022 at 10:37 AM (#6098726)
#57 Old topic, but Maris would absolutely have been subject to PED rumors in the 2000s.
   87. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 02, 2022 at 11:20 AM (#6098730)
Which would've been tough to argue by the standards of those 2000s rumors, since Maris wasn't bulked up like the Brady Andersons, and since none of his home runs were of any notable tape measure distance. And AFAICR there were never even any reports of bacne. (smile)

   88. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: October 02, 2022 at 03:51 PM (#6098745)
Judge only hit 1 HR in his first 13 games this season, so he's got 7 more games to hit 61 in 154 anyway. Why the bias towards the first week of the season rather than the last? The whole thing is idiotic.


If you take that further, why is there a bias towards consecutive games?

The reason there's bias towards the first 154 is because players didn't have the opportunity to play in those added on games and so didn't have the same opportunity to hit 60 or more as the modern day players do.
   89. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: October 02, 2022 at 04:49 PM (#6098755)
You mean the ones added on at the beginning of the season?
   90. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: October 02, 2022 at 05:46 PM (#6098762)
I don't see your point. Maris had 162 games to hit his 61. Ruth had 154. Maris had more opportunity to hit HRs in a season than Ruth did.
   91. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: October 02, 2022 at 05:58 PM (#6098763)
How do we know it wasn't the ones at the beginning of the season that were added on, rather than the ones at the end?
   92. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: October 02, 2022 at 06:11 PM (#6098764)
I don't think I can find a way to care about that.

edit...Here's what I can take into consideration: Ruth faced inferior pitching, compared to Maris or Bonds or Judge.

But Ruth didn't have the livelier ball to hit, or the better bats to hit with.

I don't know how much advantage any of them had over the other. The only easily quantifiable thing is the opportunity. Maris and forward had/have more opportunity that Ruth did, in any season.
   93. BDC Posted: October 02, 2022 at 06:45 PM (#6098765)
I'd agree with Bivens here, though AuntBea may be a bit tongue in cheek :) Each team played one tie, so it was really 155 for the '27 Yankees, 163 for the '61 Yankees. (Neither hit a home run in the tie, but they had the opportunity.) Ruth thus missed four of his team's games, Maris two. The more chances, the more chances.

The 1930 Cubs, FWIW, played two ties, so Hack Wilson, who missed one game that year, appeared in 155. He didn't hit a HR in either tie.
   94. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: October 02, 2022 at 07:24 PM (#6098767)
So, missing games shouldn't matter when considering opportunity. A Ruth or a Maris could say "I'm playing until I'm unable to use my legs" and the manager would have to let him play. Opportunity comes down to how many games are on the schedule.

And there's no way Boone is sitting Judge. He has him leading off to get him as much opportunity as possible.
   95. SoSH U at work Posted: October 02, 2022 at 07:32 PM (#6098769)
Each team played one tie, so it was really 155 for the '27 Yankees, 163 for the '61 Yankees.


I never knew until now that Maris sat out Game 160.
   96. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: October 02, 2022 at 07:34 PM (#6098771)
Judge is 7 for 30 since hitting his 60th. (Also 5 for his last 26). Is there any possibility that trying to break the HR "record" is making him overcompensate and costing him the triple crown? That would be quite ironic. I haven't watched any of his at bats, so wouldn't know.
   97. Mefisto Posted: October 03, 2022 at 08:49 AM (#6098821)
I don't see your point. Maris had 162 games to hit his 61. Ruth had 154. Maris had more opportunity to hit HRs in a season than Ruth did.


Using "games played by the team" makes no sense to me as the measure of opportunity. The measure of opportunity is PAs.

It's one thing to quibble with the definition of "season" as Jolly did above, but I thought that there was consensus that "opportunity" = PAs.
   98. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 03, 2022 at 09:13 AM (#6098825)
Using "games played by the team" makes no sense to me as the measure of opportunity. The measure of opportunity is PAs.

Every player has the theoretical opportunity to play in all of his team's games. It's silly to implicitly reward a player for missing games and PAs.
   99. Ithaca2323 Posted: October 03, 2022 at 09:33 AM (#6098829)
The only easily quantifiable thing is the opportunity. Maris and forward had/have more opportunity that Ruth did, in any season.


And yet, it's not so easy.

Baseball-reference, for example, has a category for stolen base opportunities. It has nothing to do with games played. It is "The number of plate appearances in which a runner was on first or second and the next base was open"

There would be absolutely nothing wrong with saying that opportunities for HR be something like "Plate appearances that did not feature an intentional walk."
   100. SoSH U at work Posted: October 03, 2022 at 09:34 AM (#6098830)


Using "games played by the team" makes no sense to me as the measure of opportunity. The measure of opportunity is PAs.

It's one thing to quibble with the definition of "season" as Jolly did above, but I thought that there was consensus that "opportunity" = PAs.


I don't think so, at least not in this case. If we did that, we'd be looking at doubles/PA for the seasonal record. Or homers/PA. That's kind of a blend of rate stats and seasonal counting numbers that I doubt anyone wants to do. (It would obviously benefit the guys who got the fewest numbers of PAs, which is the opposite of what we're recognizing).

These are single-season records. A season's length is measured in games. And there's a meaningful difference between 162 games and 154.

Now, I don't think it makes any sense to parse which games count (the first 154, for instance). Aaron Judge does not share the 154-game season AL home run record with Babe Ruth, since he didn't play in a 154-game season.

But I've long believed it would make sense, where applicable*, for the record book to acknowledge the two main season lengths the sport has played under.** I think Sisler's 257 in a 154-game season warrants a space in the record book, even if Ichiro's 262 is now the single-season standard.***

* There's no need to single out the 162-game season win leader when Chesbro won 41 in fewer games, or add the save leader from the 154-game era when guys today beat that number by midseason.

** Thereby eliminating any one-off counts, like the strike- or pandemic-shortened ones.

*** And if the pre-West Coast Expansion PCL is ever elevated to major league status, I don't believe Paul Strand's 325 hits for the Salt Lake City Bees in 1923 should become the single new standard for seasonal greatness.
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