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Saturday, February 15, 2020

Rosenthal: Carlos Correa rips Bellinger, passionately defends Altuve and says the Astros deserve their 2017 title – The Athletic

I don’t agree with everything Carlos Correa says in the interview but he’s handling the situation better than anyone else.

Jim Furtado Posted: February 15, 2020 at 02:25 PM | 78 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, carlos correa, sign stealing

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   1. Blastin Posted: February 15, 2020 at 02:54 PM (#5924619)
Your own opinion on this - that it doesn't matter, everyone stop talking about it - would indeed lead one to think Correa did something good here.
   2. Blastin Posted: February 15, 2020 at 02:57 PM (#5924620)
Also, Correa admits they tried to cheat but failed because the signs were too complex in the 2017 WS. That is..... not.... a good moral stance?
   3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 15, 2020 at 03:02 PM (#5924622)
Given that they 1) admitted to cheating, and 2) beat the Yankees and Dodgers by the slimmest margin, I don't see how you can say they deserved their 2017 title.

I wonder what Clayton Kershaw thinks about getting lit up in G5 at Minute Maid, after dominating them in G1 in LA.

In that series, Kershaw in LA 11 IP, 5 H, 2 BB, 15 K, 1 HR, 1 R. Kershaw in HOU: 4.2 IP 4 H, 3 BB, 2 K, 1 HR, 6 R.

Deserve my ass.
   4. Mayor Blomberg Posted: February 15, 2020 at 03:04 PM (#5924623)
pffft. Will remember if ever charged with attempted theft, forgery, etc.

Too many variables, I think, to determine exact effects, but (a) the much vaunted analytics arm didn't pull the plug on it, which they should have if it was counterproductive, and (b) you get caught doing #### like that, you deserve to be slagged. Period.
   5. winnipegwhip Posted: February 15, 2020 at 03:07 PM (#5924624)
Did the tattoo say "Bregman's #####?
   6. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 15, 2020 at 03:10 PM (#5924626)
This is exactly why, while murder is punishable, attempted murder is not.

Wait, that's not right?
   7. winnipegwhip Posted: February 15, 2020 at 03:11 PM (#5924627)
In regards to the tattoo that was embarrassing - maybe it was the tattoo artist's fault. A good artist should plan ahead in his artwork so he doesn't run out of canvas before he is finished.
   8. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: February 15, 2020 at 03:11 PM (#5924628)
How about this - Astros catchers are not allowed to use signs this season, instead they have to call pitches audibly. And if Maldonado says "slider low and away" but Verlander throws a fastball up and in it's a balk. Then we'll see if it impacts the game.
   9. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 15, 2020 at 03:12 PM (#5924629)
Yeah, "We tried to cheat but it didn't work" is the lamest defense ever.
   10. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: February 15, 2020 at 03:17 PM (#5924631)
And "handling the situation better than anyone else" is pretty faint praise in this case.
   11. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 15, 2020 at 03:25 PM (#5924632)
The problem is that unless the 2017 and 2018 rosters can be reassembled and all those series replayed, the records are going to stand, just like the home run records of McGwire and Bonds aren't going to be taken off the books. People can put all the well deserved mental asterisks they want on them, but the surest form of revenge would be for the Yankees to beat them every time they play the Astros in 2020.
   12. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: February 15, 2020 at 03:33 PM (#5924636)
I'm not really a fan of the NY Yankees, but...

Yankees to beat them every time they play the Astros in 2020.


I would be please to see that.

   13. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 15, 2020 at 03:36 PM (#5924640)
It's the Popular Front of baseball!
   14. MuttsIdolCochrane Posted: February 15, 2020 at 04:58 PM (#5924655)
Enough is enough already. Take a shred of responsibility, show a shred of remorse, somebody please say "sorry for cheating". Maybe admit that the illegal sign stealing helped to win. At least STFU with more lies and bull. Altuve = a proven cheat and an obvious liar. Correa also says OJ is innocent and was honest. "You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" Signed, Altuve's Buzzer
   15. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: February 15, 2020 at 05:26 PM (#5924659)
Maybe the Astros are collectively watching what's happening in the world and figure the "we tried to do something wrong, but got caught/didn't end up going through with it" defense is a worthwhile line.
   16. . Posted: February 15, 2020 at 05:59 PM (#5924665)
Taking away their title is the only proper reaction to their utter refusal to take any responsibility.
   17. The Duke Posted: February 15, 2020 at 07:21 PM (#5924672)
I think this will damage baseball. I’m a die hard but even I have begun to think it doesn’t matter anymore. The powers that be don’t seem to care. Why should I? Manfred should be Fiered
   18. puck Posted: February 15, 2020 at 07:33 PM (#5924673)
Dusty: Won't someone please think of the children:

"I'm depending on the league to try to put a stop to this seemingly premeditated retaliation that I'm hearing about," Baker said. "In most instances in life, you get kind of reprimanded when you have premeditated anything. I'm just hoping that the league puts a stop to this before somebody gets hurt.

“It’s not good for the game, it’s not good for kids to see it,” Baker said. “Stop the comments, and also stop something before it happens.”


Who has been talking about throwing at Astros batters?
   19. Lassus Posted: February 15, 2020 at 07:49 PM (#5924674)
I wonder what Clayton Kershaw thinks about getting lit up in G5 at Minute Maid, after dominating them in G1 in LA.

Because that's the only playoff game he's been lit up in?
   20. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 15, 2020 at 07:52 PM (#5924675)
I don’t agree with everything Carlos Correa says in the interview but he’s handling the situation better than anyone else.
Really? The ‘bad tattoo’ defense is looking a bit shaky, judging by recent Altuve photos circulating.
   21. Walt Davis Posted: February 15, 2020 at 08:03 PM (#5924677)
One of Dusty's negatives with the Cubs was not realizing when he was over-protecting the players which that statement might be an example of. As to who has said it, Ross Stripling has said he "probably" would but, since the trade to the Angels seems to have fallen through, he doesn't have to make that decision. But he said it was one of the things he thought about when he got news of the trade, whether he would intentionally hit Astros' batters. There has of course been lots of media and online speculation that Astros' batters are in for it this season. (I don't do twitter so I don't know but wouldn't be surprised if a few pitchers there have implied they might hit Astros' batters.)

But in the end, Dusty is correct here. The league chose not to punish players and the league has a responsibility to protect its players from potential injury and obviously from intentional beanballs. We can discuss whether any player deserves a lifetime ban (I don't see how but so be it) but certainly no player deserves to have a career ended by injury over this much less the risk of death. If it's a couple of guys, you tell them to knock it off and you put the umps on notice any time those pitchers face the Astros. If it is more widespread then the league needs to do something stronger (no idea what).

MLB is also failing in its duty here. If they did a legit investigation, they need to be out front repeating things like "the right people were punished", "we investigated the buzzer thing and found no reliable evidence", "we believe we've gotten to the bottom of it," and (gasp!) "without the cooperation of the Astros' players with the investigation, we never would have gotten to the bottom of this." Without stronger support for the report's findings, the report will be increasingly viewed as a whitewash (probably too late on this front now).

They are also making a huge PR error not wrapping up the Boston investigation more quickly -- if it results in a slap on the wrist, MLB looks terrible (even if that's the correct decision); if it turns out to be another example of major systemic cheating, then it will just increase the controversy and keep it going well into the season. I might have missed it but I haven't even heard MLB proposing to increase the ridiculous maximum $5 M fine which, even though it can't be applied in either of these cases, shows you understand the punishment for the teams was not sufficient this time. They've had 3-4 months to propose some ideas on how they will prevent this in the future but don't seem to have made any actual progress.

But hey, it's mostly the players taking the heat now so MLB is probably happy -- always good to have the MLBPA on the back foot going into negotiations.

I had also earlier proposed that (probably via the MLBPA), all of the 2017 Astros agree to make a collective gift of their 2017 playoff shares to charity. To the extent some players didn't participate or are young guys not in a financial position to give that up, then (on the quiet) the rich guys cover their share. You don't single out any of your teammates but you make it clear that (a) you were naughty and (b) all of you share responsibility here. Recognizing the $5 M fine was way too low, the team could match the players' donation.
   22. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 15, 2020 at 08:40 PM (#5924679)
The league chose not to punish players and the league has a responsibility to protect its players from potential injury and obviously from intentional beanballs.
MLB’s duty towards the Astros isn’t any greater than its duty to players on the non-cheating teams. Dusty is trying to game the umpires - MLB shouldn’t overreact and make it more difficult to pitch inside against Houston. FWIW, I doubt we’re going to see much in the way of actual beanballs, more likely a few pitches in the ribs or on the hands.
   23. . Posted: February 15, 2020 at 09:07 PM (#5924680)
When the constable fails to provide honest justice, the ways of the frontier will naturally obtain -- particularly when the outlaws mock.
   24. CFBF's Overflowing Pathos Posted: February 15, 2020 at 09:09 PM (#5924681)
I can understand why Correa would get prickly at people taking shots at his teammates or questioning the legitimacy of the World Series, but it really seems like you just grin and bear it, at least for a while. You flagrantly cheated, and none of the players got punished. Other players are going to be pissed, and you're going to have to deal with people saying things you think are unfair. You're not the victim here.
   25. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 15, 2020 at 09:20 PM (#5924682)

Because that's the only playoff game he's been lit up in?


Maybe that was his season to slay the dragon, and they stole it from him.
   26. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 15, 2020 at 09:22 PM (#5924683)
I think this will damage baseball. I’m a die hard but even I have begun to think it doesn’t matter anymore. The powers that be don’t seem to care. Why should I? Manfred should be Fiered

They cared enough to slam the Astros.
   27. Brian Posted: February 15, 2020 at 09:34 PM (#5924684)
Wait, so they did cheat in 2017 and won the WS. Then they just stopped doing it? They cheated whenever they could, right up until they were caught.
   28. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM (#5924688)
Wait, so they did cheat in 2017 and won the WS. Then they just stopped doing it? They cheated whenever they could, right up until they were caught.

Correct. They kept cheating, but other teams got smarter on ways to defeat it.
   29. KronicFatigue Posted: February 15, 2020 at 10:35 PM (#5924691)
Just as an aside, I hate-hate-hate when something is waived away because other circumstances exist. Saying the Yankees only scored 1 run a game in their losses, or the Dodgers left men on base is besides the point. "That bad call at the end of the game wouldn't have mattered if you had just done x, y, or z" is not a good excuse. You shouldn't have to win a game by overcoming something extra.
   30. Walt Davis Posted: February 15, 2020 at 10:45 PM (#5924692)
MLB’s duty towards the Astros isn’t any greater than its duty to players on the non-cheating teams.

Nobody said otherwise.

Dusty is trying to game the umpires - MLB shouldn’t overreact and make it more difficult to pitch inside against Houston. FWIW, I doubt we’re going to see much in the way of actual beanballs, more likely a few pitches in the ribs or on the hands.

1. Sure, I assume Dusty is over-stating things.

2. But to the extent that any players are publicly talking about taking revenge, MLB absolutely should have a chat with those players and tell them to knock it off. (Or MLB can talk to MLBPA who can tell the player to knock it off.) That is exactly what they would have done in such a situation in previous years, in fact, depending on the seriousness of the threat, the offending player probably gets suspended for a few games (which is why pitchers pretty much never admit to intentionally hitting a guy).

3. I too think it's unlikely there will be much revenge. But as to the uncanny ability of pitchers to hit guys where they want -- BS. You go gunning for a guy and you are always taking the risk of beaning him. And it's not like a broken hand is "justice" as we like to define it in the supposedly civilized world.

#11: No the solution (or at least a solution) is simple -- MLB would vacate the 2017 championship. They don't have to declare a new champion, they just remove the official recognition of the Astros as winners, take their name off the trophy, tell them to take down the "flag", etc. History can still remember how the ALCS and WS actually went, you can still "count" the postseason stats if you want (they don't really matter so you can get rid of them too).

After all, there is no 1994 champion (for other reasons) and even b-r doesn't recognize Melky's batting title. It would put MLB in a sticky situation as to whether to vacate the Red Sox in 2018 and end up with two voided championships.
   31. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 15, 2020 at 11:35 PM (#5924694)
Who has been talking about throwing at Astros batters?


The way the Houston Astros have handled being caught is functionally a series of requests to "Please bean us, hard and frequently."

Even so, this is less likely to result in a series of targeted revenge manglings, and more apt to result in operatic overreactions to inside or wild pitches. When did any pre-advertised beanball war ever pan out as hyped, other than Clemens throwing Piazza's broken bat?
   32. bobm Posted: February 16, 2020 at 11:24 AM (#5924725)
MLB would vacate the 2017 championship. They don't have to declare a new champion, they just remove the official recognition of the Astros as winners, take their name off the trophy, tell them to take down the "flag", etc. History can still remember how the ALCS and WS actually went,

IMO vacating championships is silly. Are we going to vacate the Reds' 1919 title because the White Sox did not genuinely contest the games?

Do people really think that the negative publicity, firings, and fines will not deter future attempts at cheating in this manner? Retaining a tarnished championship is not some great prize, and getting agreement from MLBPA not to protest formal player discipline was never going to happen, even in the context of some bargain.

Will players and managers not be more ready to stand up against teammates engaging in this kind of conduct?

Clearly Beltran's case for the HoF has taken a massive hit; this incident is not going to be forgotten.
   33. greenback slays lewks Posted: February 16, 2020 at 12:11 PM (#5924732)
Ford Frick was a visionary with this whole asterisk thing, wasn't he?
   34. KronicFatigue Posted: February 16, 2020 at 12:27 PM (#5924735)
IMO vacating championships is silly. Are we going to vacate the Reds' 1919 title because the White Sox did not genuinely contest the games?



Isn't continuing to call them champions now just as silly? A) actions happened in 2017 and B) our memories (and game footage) of those actions won't be changed. But C) in 2020, we can decide how we categorize those actions.

Why shouldn't the league be able to decide "you know, that was so wrong that they don't deserve future benefit from cheating." The economics are too complicated to really piece and parcel to get an accurate fine, but letting them walk around calling themselves champs is something that can be fixed.

Force everyone to take that off their resume. Tons of stuff in history is re-categorized after the fact, to no "real" purpose other than to verbalize that we are admitting a mistake.
   35. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 16, 2020 at 12:50 PM (#5924738)
Who has been talking about throwing at Astros batters?

Thanks for asking.

If MLB won’t punish Astros players, opposing pitchers ready to dole out justice on their own
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — In the absence of formal justice brought down upon the Houston Astros hitters who conspired to steal signs illegally in 2017 and 2018 — the result of Major League Baseball’s decision to grant players immunity in exchange for their testimony — a loose band of opposing pitchers appears ready to dole out a form of justice to the Astros: the type that involves a fastball to the ribs.

“I don’t think it’s going to be a comfortable few at-bats for a lot of those boys, and it shouldn’t be,” Cleveland Indians pitcher Mike Clevinger said last month.

“I would lean towards yes,” Los Angeles Dodgers pitcher Ross Stripling told reporters Friday when asked whether he would hit an Astros batter on purpose if given the chance. “In the right time and the right place . . . yeah, it would be on my mind.” ...

Asked about opposing pitchers potentially targeting Astros hitters, [Justin] Verlander said: “I think the commissioner has made it clear in the past few seasons that throwing a baseball at somebody intentionally is not an appropriate form of retaliation in the game. …The problem is knowing if it’s on purpose or not, but I guess when you come and say, ‘I’m going to do it on purpose,’ then you know.”
   36. flournoy Posted: February 16, 2020 at 01:17 PM (#5924740)
When did any pre-advertised beanball war ever pan out as hyped, other than Clemens throwing Piazza's broken bat?


Andres Galarraga threatened to charge the mound at the next pitcher who hit him with a pitch. Darren Dreifort obliged, and Galarraga kept his word.
   37. bobm Posted: February 16, 2020 at 02:39 PM (#5924748)
[34] Isn't continuing to call them champions now just as silly? A) actions happened in 2017 and B) our memories (and game footage) of those actions won't be changed. But C) in 2020, we can decide how we categorize those actions.

I will not begrudge you your opinion.

The 1904 and 1994 World Series were never played, but the 1919 and 2017 World Series were played and won by the Reds and Astros, respectively, even if under fraudulent conditions. Those are historical facts.

In my opinion, vacating wins or championships that we have all witnessed--like the NCAA does as punishment--feels no less fake, false, and phony than Stalin's infamous airbrushing of political enemies out of photographs when those persons each became persona non grata.

From History: "How Photos Became a Weapon in Stalin’s Great Purge"

Stalin used a large group of photo retouchers to cut his enemies out of supposedly documentary photographs. One such erasure was Nikola Yezhov, a secret police official who oversaw Stalin’s purges. For a while Yezhov worked at Stalin’s right hand, interrogating, falsely accusing and ordering the execution of thousands of Communist Party officials. But in 1939, Yezhov fell from Stalin’s favor after being usurped by one of his own deputies. He was denounced, secretly arrested, tried in a secret court, and executed.

Stalin’s censors then removed Yezhov from the photographic record, including cutting him from a photograph in which he smiled next to his former boss, Stalin, next to a waterway. The photo retouchers removed Yezhov from the photo and inserted new water to cover up the space where Yezhov would have been.


Nikolai Yezhov, pictured right of Stalin, was later removed from this photograph at the Moscow Canal.

Stalin did the same with scores of party officials who had been photographed next to him at various events. Sometimes, official censors had to retouch photos over and over again as the list of political enemies grew longer. In one photograph, Stalin is shown with a group of three of his deputies. As each deputy fell out his favor, they were snipped out of the photo until only Stalin remained.


openculture.com: "People's Commissar for Posts and Telegraphs Nikolai Antipov, commander of the Leningrad party Sergei Kirov, and Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet Nikolai Shvernik — pictured, and removed one by one"
   38. Nakagura775 Posted: February 16, 2020 at 02:49 PM (#5924752)
Jose Mesa vs Omar Vizquel
   39. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: February 16, 2020 at 03:30 PM (#5924756)
FTR the definitive history of Stalin's erasure of history is David King's The Commissar Vanishes: The Falsification of Photographs and Art in Stalin's Russia.

And I agree with bobm's take on erasing the 1919 and 2017 championships from the record book.
   40. Sunday silence Posted: February 16, 2020 at 03:31 PM (#5924757)
catching up on the latest news on this front: Did I understand that Manfred is now walking back his comments about the Astros using buzzers in 2019? Now saying he can't guarantee anything. Well that's not a good look from him. If he wasnt sure originally then shouldnt have issued statements that seemed to clear them.

He's calling a press conference at 430 today so I guess we'll see what's up with that. Seems like he's losing control of his whole thing.

Are we going to vacate the Reds' 1919 title because the White Sox did not genuinely contest the games?


That's not the Reds fault. Why would you want to penalize or diminish them for what is out of their control? That's a really strange analogy or argument..
   41. KronicFatigue Posted: February 16, 2020 at 04:18 PM (#5924762)
Interesting info on Stalin.

Would your opinion change if teams contractually agreed ahead of time to some type of morals clause? So that if MLB discovers they did x, even after the fact, MLB will no longer recognize them as champions?

Just curious to see where your "historical fact" line is drawn. Can there be an ongoing standard so that to be called 2017 champions you have to record the last out in the World Series AND do y and z in perpetuity?
   42. greenback slays lewks Posted: February 16, 2020 at 06:28 PM (#5924771)
Would your opinion change if teams contractually agreed ahead of time to some type of morals clause? So that if MLB discovers they did x, even after the fact, MLB will no longer recognize them as champions?

Mine wouldn't. The Astros won four games in the World Series, which is the definition of champions. Due to the one-on-one nature of the competition, baseball does not lend itself to post-tournament disqualification, like running a marathon would. If you want to set up a system where players would be stripped of their shares of playoff money, then that's fine. In fact, I would support that, and lots of other forms of punishment. But let's not pretend that what happened on the field did not in fact happen.

I think fans and players pooping on the Astros the way they have all winter long is more effective castigation than anything Manfred can do.

That said, as a Michigan alum, I am looking to buy one of these t-shirts.
   43. Howie Menckel Posted: February 16, 2020 at 07:06 PM (#5924773)
from all the mewling by Michiganders about that Louisville game, you'd think the "controversial call" came in the waning seconds. {NARRATOR: "It did not."}

don't get me wrong, it can't hold a candle to the bizarre Cardinals/Don Denkinger bleating - which didn't even happen in the final game!

but it's still one of those things that plays well in an insulated community message board - and not so much with the overall populace.

and I do agree that look, the Astros won the WS in 2017, and that's not going away.
   44. base ball chick Posted: February 16, 2020 at 07:44 PM (#5924778)
a few comments

the talk about "vacating titles" is ridiculous. the games happened. no revision or censorship plz. this all sounds like the screaming about how anyone who used steroids had to have all home runs removed from his record - i forget exactly what it was they were supposed to do to steroids using pitchers

it is obvious that some lawyer, either astros or MLBPA, has strictly instructed astros players to not use the word "cheat" as it may have legal consequences, so those waiting for that ain't gonna hear it

and as for using the cheating system at away games, i am eagerly waiting to hear how that was supposed to work as the astros don't have access to the center field camera. i am also eager to hear how exactly they were supposed to have cheated after they no longer had access to the center field camera. as well as why would any player wear a buzzer in place where it would be immediately visible if he had his shirt ripped off - i mean, that is seriously insane

until there is more proof than - if he lied once, then we ignore anything he says unless it specifically fits my beliefs. and insisting that if they ceatedf in 17, this means they HAD to have cheated in 18 and 19. sort of like how if a person cheats on their partner it is not possible for it to have been a one time thing

i am not exactly sure what it is that the screamers for a pound of flesh want them to say. they aren't stupid enough to commit legal suicide no matter how bad you want them to. and plz - they aren't going to give up the money they won. that is absolutely ridiculous

oh yeah. none of yall have been to a playoff game in the Box. the volume of noise is so incredibly loud, it wouldn't be possible to hear any trash can bangs. so it didn't happen during the playoffs
   45. Astroenteritis Posted: February 16, 2020 at 07:51 PM (#5924780)
IMO vacating championships is silly.
j

the talk about "vacating titles" is ridiculous. the games happened. no revision or censorship plz. this all sounds like the screaming about how anyone who used steroids had to have all home runs removed from his record - i forget exactly what it was they were supposed to do to steroids using pitchers


Don't try talking common sense to folks with torches and pitchforks.
   46. JJ1986 Posted: February 16, 2020 at 08:08 PM (#5924784)
If they vacate one title, the people calling for that will start calling for many more titles to be vacated.
   47. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 16, 2020 at 08:54 PM (#5924793)
it is obvious that some lawyer, either astros or MLBPA, has strictly instructed astros players to not use the word "cheat" as it may have legal consequences, so those waiting for that ain't gonna hear it
There's no valid legal reason for them to refuse to utter that word.
   48. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 16, 2020 at 09:45 PM (#5924797)
Vacating titles is dumb. The Astros will never again enjoy their tainted Championship. Whenever it is mentioned, cheating will be mentioned. That's good enough.
   49. Sunday silence Posted: February 16, 2020 at 10:53 PM (#5924806)

but it's still one of those things that plays well in an insulated community message board - and not so much with the overall populace.


I am not sure what you are referring to here, are you talking about Michigan football game or the HOU world series thing?
   50. akrasian Posted: February 16, 2020 at 11:33 PM (#5924816)
Vacating titles is dumb. The Astros will never again enjoy their tainted Championship. Whenever it is mentioned, cheating will be mentioned. That's good enough.


I agree that the title at this stage can't be vacated. But the Astros do need to be actually punished for their cheating, and the most wronged do need to be compensated - as the Astros showed, in the hacking scandal when they got draft picks and cash for being wronged. It would be hypocrisy to do otherwise.

The wronged at the very least are their divisional opponents and the teams they beat in the playoffs. The penalty should be such that every team knows that trying to cheat would end up devastating their team. I'd suggest draft picks from the Astros going to all the wronged teams. I also think that international signing money should be removed and given to the teams they beat in the playoffs as well as the Astros divisional rivals - probably for a few years. And so the Astros do not inadvertently benefit, they should not be allowed a top 15 draft pick for a number of years.

Teams and owners have to be shown that trying to cheat will hurt their teams for years. And next time, it will be even worse. Otherwise teams will take a slap on the wrist for a title.
   51. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 16, 2020 at 11:34 PM (#5924817)
Vacating titles is dumb. The Astros will never again enjoy their tainted Championship. Whenever it is mentioned, cheating will be mentioned. That's good enough.


It would be better still to give the Houston Astros something they will permanently resent, but which they have no power to change. Maybe it'll assist them in empathizing with everyone else.
   52. Howie Menckel Posted: February 17, 2020 at 12:28 AM (#5924820)
I am not sure what you are referring to here, are you talking about Michigan football game or the HOU world series thing?

the Michigan hoops and 1985 Cardinals.
I'm good with an isolated fan base consoling each other - however irrationally.
but when it gets pitched to the overall population, it's just an overreach that sometimes isn't grasped.
   53. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: February 17, 2020 at 12:56 AM (#5924821)
Bill James on this from his on-line mailbag on his site:

No; if you go down the road of vacating championships, you will never reach the end of the road. Only the NCAA does stupid #### like that. Sensible people don't.

There isn't a lot of reason to believe that the Astros--or any other team--derived large benefits from stealing signs. But as you say, it is wrong whether you derive large benefits or not.
   54. Mayor Blomberg Posted: February 17, 2020 at 01:26 AM (#5924822)
OTTOMH, The IOC and the Tour de France void titles. Man City's is also on the mine. Go back to your shower, Bill.
   55. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 17, 2020 at 01:56 AM (#5924823)
Don't try talking common sense to folks with torches and pitchforks.
Well, of COURSE people are angry. A bunch of cheaters are going to get away with cheating, the organization won't be punished in any meaningful way, and the players are going to skate. I get that Astros fans desperately want everyone else to just "get over it," but given the clear lack of remorse from Crane and the players, that will probably — hopefully — never, ever happen. 2017 Houston Asterisks forever.
   56. Mayor Blomberg Posted: February 17, 2020 at 03:28 AM (#5924826)
why would any player wear a buzzer in place where it would be immediately visible if he had his shirt ripped off - i mean, that is seriously insane


Really, it's like putting super balls in a bat (or even cork) when it'd all come flying out of a broken bat, which happens far more commonly than having a shirt ripped off.

That's so insane I defy anyone to show proof that it ever happened.
   57. Rusty Priske Posted: February 17, 2020 at 04:14 PM (#5924927)
It is interesting to me that such a big deal is being made out of this when so little was made out of this:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story?id=1585964
   58. base ball chick Posted: February 17, 2020 at 06:01 PM (#5924953)
Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 17, 2020 at 01:56 AM (#5924823)

Don't try talking common sense to folks with torches and pitchforks.

Well, of COURSE people are angry. A bunch of cheaters are going to get away with cheating, the organization won't be punished in any meaningful way, and the players are going to skate. I get that Astros fans desperately want everyone else to just "get over it," but given the clear lack of remorse from Crane and the players, that will probably — hopefully — never, ever happen. 2017 Houston Asterisks forever.


- please explain what would satisfy you in terms of the organization being punished in a meaningful way - and pls, none of the - pretend the playoffs never happened

- please explain what would satisfy you in terms of "remorse" besides demanding that the players put themselves in legal jeopardy or be banned

what is the shame is that they didn't HAVE to do this - they were already a great team

   59. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 17, 2020 at 06:20 PM (#5924957)
please explain what would satisfy you in terms of "remorse" besides demanding that the players put themselves in legal jeopardy
Again - there is no legitimate legal reason that they refuse to say the word "cheat." They can't get in legal trouble for violating the rules of baseball. Of course there are some "creative" plaintiff's lawyers out there (some of whom have already filed suits), but (a) those suits have no merit, and (b) they will be filed regardless of whether or not the Astros players keep refusing real accountability.

   60. Khrushin it bro Posted: February 17, 2020 at 06:36 PM (#5924963)
#57 That's one employee doing something with or without the team knowing that probably has little to do with the outcome of the game. Top down knowledge throughout the organization from GM to star players knowing what pitch was coming is a little more sinister (whether or not it changed the outcomes of the games).
   61. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2020 at 06:50 PM (#5924965)
- please explain what would satisfy you in terms of "remorse" besides demanding that the players put themselves in legal jeopardy or be banned

Players all got immunity; they could be honest, but they're being d-bags instead.
   62. base ball chick Posted: February 17, 2020 at 07:02 PM (#5924970)
snapper

- what do you mean by "honest" - i don't think anyone denied they did the bang thing if they didn't
   63. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 17, 2020 at 07:24 PM (#5924975)
- what do you mean by "honest" - i don't think anyone denied they did the bang thing if they didn't
I can't speak for Snapper, of course, but my own answer to this is that 'honest' would involve realizing that they don't get to control the narrative right now, and having some humility about that. Actually answering reporters' questions substantively rather than repeating blowoffs like "we're not discussing details today" and hiding behind prepared statements. Accepting that people are legitimately upset, and they don't get to control when everyone "moves on." And just generally not being so damn smarmy about the whole thing.

There's more to a genuinely honest reckoning with this than merely not denying it. That's literally the absolute barest minimum.
   64. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 17, 2020 at 07:27 PM (#5924978)
snapper

- what do you mean by "honest" - i don't think anyone denied they did the bang thing if they didn't


Saying "We cheated, it was wrong, and we're sorry. We apologize to our opponents who were negatively affected." And then STFU.
   65. base ball chick Posted: February 17, 2020 at 07:39 PM (#5924982)
billy,

i know you said that cheating isn't against the law but i would bet they were instructed not to use that specific word

i don't think it is reasonable to expect ballplayers to tattle on other ballplayers - i mean, they can talk about their own self. i'm pretty sure they were strictly instructed to say what they did say. they sound like alex rodriguez before his bannination year

i also think that part of the problem is that when a player does in fact do that (carlos correa) he gets enormous shtt for it. they have figured that players AND fans are pretty upset. i know i see a LOT less astros gear around here all of a sudden - and that is astros fans - BAD to piss off your own fan base

and the other part of the problem is that people have already decided what the narrative should be. and that is not exactly conducive to getting a player to talk about anything

snapper

i think that what you suggest is gonna make a who0le LOT more people even more angry - the STFU part especially
   66. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 17, 2020 at 07:49 PM (#5924988)
i'm pretty sure they were strictly instructed to say what they did say.
Possibly, even probably. Doesn't make it acceptable.

when a player does in fact do that (carlos correa) he gets enormous shtt for it.
Maybe he should have tried it without the lashing out at Bellinger, without saying they won "fair and square," and without the outright lying about Altuve not cheating. Probably would have been better received.

EDIT: Also, framing it as having "made a mistake" is not in any way taking accountability. There was nothing "mistaken" about it whatsoever - they knew what they were doing quite well, knew it was cheating, and did it entirely deliberately with the intent to gain an illegitimate advantage.
   67. flournoy Posted: February 17, 2020 at 07:57 PM (#5924989)
That's one employee doing something with or without the team knowing


Please. Everyone knew about it. When the villain confessed to it, it wasn't a huge shock, because everyone already knew that this had been going on for years.
   68. JJ1986 Posted: February 17, 2020 at 07:57 PM (#5924990)
I mostly come down on the side of being tired of this story, but the weird lies about Altuve's shirt are a bad idea if the players want it to go away.
   69. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 17, 2020 at 09:55 PM (#5925011)
- please explain what would satisfy you in terms of the organization being punished in a meaningful way - and pls, none of the - pretend the playoffs never happened
I'm not one to argue for vacating titles, that's dumb. As for what would satisfy me, how about just something that actually hurts? This wasn't just some guy or some group of guys getting together to cheat, it was the entire organization dedicating itself to cheating, AND THEY ####### GOT AWAY WITH IT. And now, after a negligible fine and some vague statements about how "mistakes were made," it's all good now? No, sorry. The owner got off, the players got off, and there's not going to be any actual punitive measures taken against the Astros that will impact the organization in any real way, so it seems like the only things that's left is to just piss on that 2017 team for the rest of time. I know Astros fans don't like that, but that's literally the only thing that seems to get to the players. Even then, it doesn't bother ownership at all, because you can't shame the shameless.

- please explain what would satisfy you in terms of "remorse" besides demanding that the players put themselves in legal jeopardy or be banned
Let's start with "some" remorse that actually looks sincere, and then we'll talk. Correa may have said some nice things earlier, but as his defense of Altuve shows, that was performative at best. Those guys won, and they're not sorry about cheating for it.
   70. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 18, 2020 at 09:35 AM (#5925054)

Really? The ‘bad tattoo’ defense is looking a bit shaky, judging by recent Altuve photos circulating.

Are there photos of him from post-2017 that don't show a tattoo by his collarbone? I don't want to Google "Jose Altuve shirtless" at the office.
   71. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 18, 2020 at 09:57 AM (#5925062)
The 1904 and 1994 World Series were never played, but the 1919 and 2017 World Series were played and won by the Reds and Astros, respectively, even if under fraudulent conditions. Those are historical facts.

As someone else noted, the 1919 Reds weren't the perpetuators of the fraud so I'm not sure why you keep bringing them up.

In my opinion, vacating wins or championships that we have all witnessed--like the NCAA does as punishment--feels no less fake, false, and phony than Stalin's infamous airbrushing of political enemies out of photographs when those persons each became persona non grata.

China also did/does this, most notably with General Secretary Zhao Ziyang after Tiananmen Square.

In the power struggle that ensued, Zhao was stripped of all his positions and was put under house arrest. Following Zhao's dismissal, Jiang Zemin replaced Zhao as General Secretary of the Communist Party of China and successor of Deng Xiaoping.[5] Over thirty ministers were dismissed as Zhao loyalists, and Zhao was widely criticized in the Chinese media.[29] In the end, mentioning his name in the media was banned, while his photographs were airbrushed and he disappeared from textbooks


Anyway, I agree that airbrushing history is problematic. But what people are talking about here is something different. Acknowledge that Houston won the games; however they cheated and therefore are not World Champions. You wouldn't recognize anyone as World Champions for that year. That wouldn't prevent anyone from talking about those games, in fact it shines a light on what happened by explicitly refusing to reward/honor them with the title. That is very different from airbrushing people out of photos and pretending a different version of history actually happened.

I don't think that should be done in this case, because there wasn't a rule to that effect, and other types of cheating have not been punished in a similar way. We didn't void the 2004 and 2007 World Series titles after Manny tested positive for PEDs, or the 2009 WS title after A-Rod admitted to juicing. I can understand the arguments for why this is different (this was more systematic, the front office and manager were involved, etc.) but I still disagree. Retroactive rule-making is a bad idea.
   72. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 18, 2020 at 10:19 AM (#5925068)
i think that what you suggest is gonna make a who0le LOT more people even more angry - the STFU part especially

I meant the players should STFU, after a sincere apology, not that they should tell everyone else to STFU.
   73. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 18, 2020 at 11:48 AM (#5925093)
- please explain what would satisfy you in terms of the organization being punished in a meaningful way - and pls, none of the - pretend the playoffs never happened


Nobody asking for the championship to be vacated wants to pretend that the playoffs never happened. Instead, the record should note that the Astros were initially awarded the title, and that it was subsequently stripped from them due to their cheating, leaving no winner in place.
   74. Lassus Posted: February 18, 2020 at 12:37 PM (#5925101)
Instead, the record should note that the Astros were initially awarded the title, and that it was subsequently stripped from them due to their cheating, leaving no winner in place.

Even though I that find people have gone somewhat unnecessarily batshit over this issue, I wouldn't really have a problem with this. However, the Dodgers and fans of the Dodgers would whine about not being granted the title by default until they were dead.
   75. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 18, 2020 at 12:53 PM (#5925106)
However, the Dodgers and fans of the Dodgers would whine about not being granted the title by default until they were dead.


And as an addendum to my previous suggestion, Astros fans should be forced by rule to shut up and listen whenever Dodgers fans feel like doing that, for as long as the Dodgers fans in question feel like doing that, henceforth and forever.
   76. Lassus Posted: February 18, 2020 at 01:35 PM (#5925136)
Oversell. WTF did the Astros fans ever do - or the rest of us - to deserve THAT?
   77. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 18, 2020 at 02:45 PM (#5925153)
WTF did the Astros fans ever do - or the rest of us - to deserve THAT?


Unless you're an Astros fan, their obligations wouldn't extend to you. You could tell them to STFU with a clean conscience.

Right now, anyone who chooses to remain an Astros fan in spite of Gurriel and Osuna and Taubman and the blatant, unapologetic cheating is, on some level, endorsing that kind of behavior. And if you're on board with that kind of stuff, I don't think there's anything wrong with other people rubbing your nose in it a little bit. If the Pirates welcomed Vazquez back with open arms, for example, you better believe I'd drop them like a hot rock.
   78. bobm Posted: February 18, 2020 at 08:43 PM (#5925241)
As someone else noted, the 1919 Reds weren't the perpetuators of the fraud so I'm not sure why you keep bringing them up.

To play devil's advocate, it was still a fraudulently won title, with one team (the Black Sox) violating the basic rules of the game by not trying to win. Why should the 1919 Reds call themselves champion when their opponent did not even try to win or prevent the Reds from winning?

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