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Wednesday, September 21, 2022

Royals fire Dayton Moore as president of baseball operations

Dayton Moore, the architect of the 2015 World Series champion Kansas City Royals but the steward of a franchise in the midst of its sixth consecutive losing season, has been relieved of his role as president of baseball operations. Royals owner John Sherman was expected to announce the firing at a news conference on Wednesday afternoon, in what could be the first in a series of sweeping changes for a team that fell far short of expectations in 2022.

Moore had overseen the Royals since 2006. J.J. Picollo, his longtime lieutenant, took over as general manager near the end of the 2021 season.

“I’m really thankful for the opportunity,” Moore told The Athletic. “I’m proud of our culture and what we accomplished in Kansas City. I’m disappointed we weren’t able to see it through. But I have confidence in John Sherman, J.J. Picollo and the entire baseball operations department to finish it off.”

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 21, 2022 at 03:06 PM | 49 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dayton moore, royals

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   1. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: September 21, 2022 at 03:16 PM (#6097338)
Charles III has begun to clean house.
   2. greenback needs a ride, not ammo Posted: September 21, 2022 at 03:31 PM (#6097343)
Weird, and Great Britain just qualified for the WBC, too.
   3. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: September 21, 2022 at 03:38 PM (#6097348)
Harry is tanned, rested, and ready.
   4. Cris E Posted: September 21, 2022 at 04:20 PM (#6097366)
Sixteen years, man, that's hardly enough time to draft, develop, play and replace more than a couple complete teams.
   5. The Duke Posted: September 21, 2022 at 04:23 PM (#6097370)
29 GMs just for a call from Mike Matheny asking if any roles may be opening up in the near future
   6. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: September 21, 2022 at 05:12 PM (#6097394)
I find it odd that Moore managed to build a team that went to the WS twice in a row (am I remembering that right?), and has been such a comprehensive failure otherwise.
   7. Zach Posted: September 21, 2022 at 05:17 PM (#6097396)
I think the best thing you can say about Moore's tenure is that when he was hired, the entire concept of the Royals fielding a competitive seemed impossible and faintly ridiculous.

Here's the thread when he was hired
   8. Zach Posted: September 21, 2022 at 05:34 PM (#6097398)
Meanwhile, the worst thing you can say about his tenure is that after winning the World Series (!) the team got extremely complacent.

Before they won, Royals fans used to joke about trusting The Process -- the constant assumption that slow and steady wins the race, that underperformers will figure it out, that guys currently in the system are the long term answer, that guys who've had success will maintain it. From about 2012-2015, The Process worked beautifully. From about 2016-2019, it didn't work at all. From 2020 to present, they've gotten a lot of talent into the system, but the results haven't shown themselves on the field yet. The pitchers are definitely behind schedule; the hitters are just arriving.

   9. Perry Posted: September 21, 2022 at 05:38 PM (#6097399)
By all accounts a prince of a guy, and I've really rooted hard for him (and the Royals) since I read this during the early part of the pandemic, when the Royals kept their minor league system on salary while a lot of other teams cut them loose:

“Understand this: The minor-league players, the players you’ll never know about, the players that never get out of rookie ball or High A, those players have as much impact on the growth of our game (as) 10-year or 15-year veteran players. They have as much opportunity to influence the growth of our game as those individuals who played for a long time because those individuals go back into their communities and teach the game, work in academies, are JUCO coaches, college coaches, scouts, coaches in pro baseball. They’re growing the game constantly because they’re so passionate about it. So we felt it was really, really important not to release one minor-league player during this time, a time we needed to stand behind them.”
   10. Zach Posted: September 21, 2022 at 05:58 PM (#6097402)
If you'd offered me the entire Moore tenure in one package on the day he was hired, I'd have accepted it in a heartbeat, and I'd still consider it to be about a 99th percentile result relative to expectations.

The new GM will probably want a new manager, a new pitching coach, and a less sentimental approach to getting and paying players. Those are conventional baseball problems. But at the time Moore was hired, the Royals had nothing -- no good players (Greinke, Butler, and Gordon were in the system, but that's about it), no minor league system, no good staff, and no way of getting any of it. The expectation was somewhere between grinding, fruitless failure and demoralizing, abject failure.
   11. Zach Posted: September 21, 2022 at 06:01 PM (#6097403)
#9 -- It's an odd thing to say on the day he's fired, but I think Moore would actually be a very good Commissioner of baseball.
   12. bookbook Posted: September 21, 2022 at 06:56 PM (#6097408)
#11, the last think the owners want is a nice person to be commissioner of baseball.
   13. Ron J Posted: September 21, 2022 at 08:22 PM (#6097421)
#12 They don't care -- as long as he acts as expected. There's no particular reason a nice guy can't do the job.
   14. Walt Davis Posted: September 21, 2022 at 08:43 PM (#6097425)
Who can blame them after that James Shields trade?
   15. Walt Davis Posted: September 21, 2022 at 08:47 PM (#6097426)
Here's the thread when he was hired

16 years ago. I wrote just 4 lines. Times change eh?
   16. vortex of dissipation Posted: September 21, 2022 at 09:10 PM (#6097428)
Flags fly forever.
   17. ReggieThomasLives Posted: September 22, 2022 at 02:10 AM (#6097456)
He cashed on all their chips to win that title, and you know what? It was worth it.
   18. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: September 22, 2022 at 07:17 AM (#6097459)
I read the headline as "Royals fire up Dinty Moore" and thought, "Hey, great beef stew!" (To be fair, it's still early in the morning here.)
   19. winnipegwhip Posted: September 22, 2022 at 10:59 AM (#6097482)
Moore...2007-2022....2 pennants...one world championship
Cashman....2007-2022....1 pennant...one World Championship

   20. SoSH U at work Posted: September 22, 2022 at 11:16 AM (#6097484)
Moore...2007-2022....2 pennants...one world championship
Cashman....2007-2022....1 pennant...one World Championship



I hope that's true.
   21. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: September 22, 2022 at 11:45 AM (#6097490)
29 GMs just for a call from Mike Matheny asking if any roles may be opening up in the near future
Hmmm, why was Moore sh1tcanned yesterday but Matheny still managing the club today?
   22. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 22, 2022 at 01:00 PM (#6097509)
Matheny is 99 percent certain to get fired at the end of the year.

Sherman said all the right things at the press conference. Pretty clear he wants to bring the Royals up to speed in analytics and DM was getting in the way. Picollo has worked with DM for decades but supposedly has been the one pushing for more analytics. We'll see. I like that Sherman didn't use small market excuses and wants to bring the Royals up with the Rays, Brewers, and Guardians in pitcher development.
   23. Ron J Posted: September 22, 2022 at 01:16 PM (#6097510)
#22 Moore is certainly a scouting guy, but ...

I think any organization that reduces (in particular) the Rays to "analytics" is overselling analytics. They're ruthless about being cost-effective (and that part is almost totally analytics) and can do so because they're very good at player development.

In a sense they remind me of the Orioles of the mid to late 60s and early 70s. Seems easy from afar but there's clearly a lot of good scouting and coaching happening.
   24. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: September 22, 2022 at 02:35 PM (#6097529)
I think any organization that reduces (in particular) the Rays to "analytics" is overselling analytics


This strikes me as obviously true. Analytics are no longer a market inefficiency. Anybody can hire twenty quants out of Berkeley and Cornell and have an effective analytics department. The secret sauce is elsewhere these days.
   25. SoSH U at work Posted: September 22, 2022 at 02:53 PM (#6097532)
I think any organization that reduces (in particular) the Rays to "analytics" is overselling analytics. They're ruthless about being cost-effective (and that part is almost totally analytics) and can do so because they're very good at player development.


I also agree.

They must also be good at scouting. When you go through their Top 12 players, it's a bunch of guys who started elsewhere and then found a new level in Tampa. They must be good at identifying players they can develop.
   26. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: September 22, 2022 at 02:59 PM (#6097534)
My in-laws live in the Kansas City area, and I've been going there regularly since 1999. Let me tell you: Everything Moore did or did not do was worth it for those two years when they got to the World Series. It was magical out there, and for some of the best sports fans in the country, it was all worth it. They still talk about 1985 like it was yesterday, and for a whole new generation of fans, 2014-2015 does the same thing.
   27. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: September 22, 2022 at 03:50 PM (#6097537)
From a Royals season-ticket holder pal earlier this month:
In 2014 and 2015 the royals won postseaon elimination games where they had an in game win probability of less than 4%—Wild Card vs Oakland in 2014 and Game Four (down 2-1) of the ALDS in Houston in 2015.

If they lose those two games then both Dayton Moore and Ned Yost go to their rewards with career postseason records of 1-4.

Instead, it’s 22-9, which makes Ned Yost the winningest postseason manager in MLB history with at least 25 postseason games managed.

I’ll just say, GMDM has eaten out on that very unlikely run for a loooooong time.
   28. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 22, 2022 at 04:03 PM (#6097539)

I also agree.

They must also be good at scouting. When you go through their Top 12 players, it's a bunch of guys who started elsewhere and then found a new level in Tampa. They must be good at identifying players they can develop.


Sherman said in the presser that they have the data, it's just not being used properly. He said it needs to be used in the draft, in development, and in making trades. I don't get the sense he's just saying analytics because it's a good buzzword, it seems like he learned a lot by being involved with the Cleveland ballclub as minority owner, and has talked a lot about using data - not just baseball statistics, but behavioral analysis, psychology - to improve development. We'll see, but I think this marks a finally sea change in the way this organization looks at analytics, they're finally looking forward instead of back to 1985.

In 2014 and 2015 the royals won postseaon elimination games where they had an in game win probability of less than 4%—Wild Card vs Oakland in 2014 and Game Four (down 2-1) of the ALDS in Houston in 2015.

If they lose those two games then both Dayton Moore and Ned Yost go to their rewards with career postseason records of 1-4.

Instead, it’s 22-9, which makes Ned Yost the winningest postseason manager in MLB history with at least 25 postseason games managed.

I’ll just say, GMDM has eaten out on that very unlikely run for a loooooong time.


If they lose those playoff games, they probably still keep their jobs, people were just so thrilled to make the playoffs. The Royals were 49-50 in late July that year - if they go .500 the rest of the way, Dayton Moore probably loses his job then.
   29. John Northey Posted: September 22, 2022 at 11:17 PM (#6097594)
Think about the fans in KC....
1969-1975 - no playoffs
1976-1985 - 7 division titles, 2 WS appearance, 1 WS win (the final year) over a decade.
1986-2013 - nada, just once reaching 90 wins (pre-Wild Card so left in the cold)
2014-2015 - 2 times to the WS, winning it once.
2016-2022 - nada, best record was 500 in 2016

Feast or famine for the KC fans. A 28 year stretch in the wilderness with little to no hope.

A lot of teams have had ugly long stretches like that (15+ years with no playoffs). Pittsburgh went from 1993-2012 with no playoffs, Toronto 1994-2014, Detroit 1988-2005, Angels 1987-2001, and just one from 2010-2022 despite having Mike Trout for most of it and Ohtani as well the past few (8 straight right now). Phillies went from 1994-2006, and now from 2012-2021 (likely broken this year but could blow it still), Washington-Montreal went from 1982-2011, the Mets had a lot of long stretches, but not 15+ year horrid ones. I'm sure I'm missing a few, but there are long stretches of 'who cares' for teams. Meanwhile the Yankees haven't missed more than 2 years in a row since their dark era (fun for everyone else) from 1982-1994 (aka the Mattingly years). This is only from the 90's to now (with streaks starting in the 80's counted).
   30. SoSH U at work Posted: September 22, 2022 at 11:35 PM (#6097598)
I'm sure I'm missing a few,


Excluding pre-divisional era.
Milwaukee 1983-2007, covering two leagues.
Seattle 2002-current but ending this year.
Miami - 2003-2019, ending with expanded playoffs in COVID year.

   31. Jaack Posted: September 23, 2022 at 12:11 AM (#6097600)
Think about the fans in KC....
1969-1975 - no playoffs
1976-1985 - 7 division titles, 2 WS appearance, 1 WS win (the final year) over a decade.
1986-2013 - nada, just once reaching 90 wins (pre-Wild Card so left in the cold)
2014-2015 - 2 times to the WS, winning it once.
2016-2022 - nada, best record was 500 in 2016

Feast or famine for the KC fans. A 28 year stretch in the wilderness with little to no hope.


It's funny, from 1969-1984, the Royals were perpetually pretty good, but snakebit in the playoffs.

From 1985-2022, the Royals have been abjectly awful. They only have three seasons above 87 wins in that timespan. But if not for Madison Bumgarner, they win the World Series in all three of those years.
   32. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 23, 2022 at 12:34 AM (#6097601)
From 1985-2022, the Royals have been abjectly awful.
The 1985 Royals beg to differ. I mean, yeah, Denkinger and all, but still…they weren’t that bad.
   33. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: September 23, 2022 at 09:08 AM (#6097612)
The way the Royals built their franchise remains very impressive to this day, in part fueled by some early trades that worked out really well (they got Amos Otis and Lou Pinella for very little in 1969 and 1970, for example).

By the way, I got into the rabbit hole that is baseball-reference, and was on Lou Pinella's page. In transactions, it shows he was traded several times (it took teams a while to figure out what to do with him, so he didn't really get a chance to play until he was 26), but it shows that the first time he was traded was 1964, from the Washington Senators (the one that would become the Rangers) to the Baltimore Orioles.

Then, 36 years later, he was traded from Seattle to Tampa for Randy Winn.

A few questions:

1) Is that the longest stretch between first and last trade in baseball history? (I checked Chuck Tanner, and it was a longer stretch than him.)

2) He is obviously the only person in history to be traded by both the Seattle Pilots and the Seattle Mariners, right?

3) In 1974, Pinella was a full time player with a good batting average, but very little power, and stunningly poor results on the basepaths. He stole one base, and got caught 8 times - 1-for-9. I know I am cherry picking eligibility criteria, but is that the most caught stealings in a season for a guy who stole 0 or 1 base in a season?
   34. SoSH U at work Posted: September 23, 2022 at 09:21 AM (#6097614)
they got Amos Otis and Lou Pinella for very little in 1969 and 1970, for example


To be fair, the guy they got in the Lou Piniella deal wasn't much either.

Now the Hal McRae pickup in 72 was a good example of the Royals' good work in the early 70s.
   35. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: September 23, 2022 at 09:40 AM (#6097616)
Then, 36 years later, he was traded from Seattle to Tampa for Randy Winn.


This is still the only time I can think of that a manager has been traded for a player. I'm sure the people around here will remember more, but it still strikes me as an utterly bizarre thing to have happened.
   36. Ron J Posted: September 23, 2022 at 09:48 AM (#6097617)
#33 Pinella makes an appearance in Ball Four. Bouton admired Pinella's intensity and thought he was making a mistake with his reaction to how Seattle handled him -- that he'd get a meaningful shot in short order. Pinella didn't do patience even when he had very little leverage. And the Pilots evidently decided he wasn't worth the hassle.
   37. Ron J Posted: September 23, 2022 at 09:52 AM (#6097618)
#35 Chuck Tanner. Got the As 100K and Manny Sanguillen. Sanguillen wasn't very good, but he also wasn't Larry Haney.
   38. Ithaca2323 Posted: September 23, 2022 at 10:24 AM (#6097621)
since their dark era (fun for everyone else) from 1982-1994 (aka the Mattingly years).


This "Dark era" included three 90-win seasons ('82, '83, '85) two more where they won 88 or 89 ('87 and '93) and a season where they were on pace for 99 ('94). Meaning that when the strike is accounted for, Mattingly played, (meaningfully) on as many 90 win teams as he did losing teams

The Yankees were the winningest team in baseball in the 1980s.

In the last 100 years, there are no dark "eras" for the Yankees, except in the minds of their fans who believe they have a divine right to the playoffs. There were two stretches where the Yankees were briefly bad and non-competitive (1989-1992, 1965-1969), but calling those "eras" is a lot.
   39. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: September 23, 2022 at 10:24 AM (#6097622)
Sanguillen wasn't very good, but he also wasn't Larry Haney.


The A's turned around and shipped him right back to Pittsburgh five months later. Weird.
   40. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: September 23, 2022 at 10:26 AM (#6097624)
In the last 100 years, there are no dark "eras" for the Yankees, except in the minds of their fans who believe they have a divine right to the playoffs. There were two stretches where the Yankees were briefly bad and non-competitive (1989-1992, 1965-1969), but calling those "eras" is a lot.


I mean, by the standards of some Yankees fans I have known over the years, 2010-2021 counts as a "dark era" because the Yankees haven't won a WS in that time. Though of course fans are probably going to have adjust their expectation in the everybody-goes-to-the-playoffs world we now live in.
   41. The Duke Posted: September 23, 2022 at 10:28 AM (#6097626)
Win a World Series once every 30 years is about all you should expect. KC is right in line with expectations. Some teams make a multi-year run like the Giants and some teams just don't try much like the Pirates. You might expect the big market teams to win a little bit more frequently because of payroll discrepancies.
   42. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 23, 2022 at 11:12 AM (#6097631)

Win a World Series once every 30 years is about all you should expect.


Sorry, Mariners fans.
   43. Dr. Pooks Posted: September 23, 2022 at 12:15 PM (#6097637)
This is still the only time I can think of that a manager has been traded for a player. I'm sure the people around here will remember more, but it still strikes me as an utterly bizarre thing to have happened.


Manager John Farrell was traded from Toronto to Boston (along with reliever David Carpenter) for Mike Aviles.
   44. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 23, 2022 at 01:24 PM (#6097644)
White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen was also traded to the Marlins.
   45. Perry Posted: September 23, 2022 at 01:36 PM (#6097648)
Anybody can hire twenty quants out of Berkeley and Cornell and have an effective analytics department.


*Except the Rockies, apparently.
   46. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: September 23, 2022 at 02:15 PM (#6097653)
Anybody can hire twenty quants out of Berkeley and Cornell and have an effective analytics department.

*Except the Rockies, apparently.


The problem with the Rockies is instead of Berkeley and Cornell, they're making all their quant hires from Liberty and Oral Roberts Universities.
   47. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: September 23, 2022 at 02:18 PM (#6097654)
Moore...2007-2022....2 pennants...one world championship
Cashman....2007-2022....1 pennant...one World Championship


I hope that's true.


It is, and from 2006 (when Moore was hired mid-season) to 2022, Ca$hman also outspent the Royals by over ONE BILLION DOLLARS over that time according to Cot's.
   48. SoSH U at work Posted: September 23, 2022 at 03:01 PM (#6097655)
It is,


I meant, 2007-2022 inclusive.

   49. donlock Posted: September 24, 2022 at 03:15 PM (#6097763)
In the classic player draft of the most inept teams, the Orioles picked Adley Rutschman and the Royals then picked Bobby Witt. Funny thing is the other teams all drafted and then theOs picked Gunnar Henderson. He and Witt may be considered comparable.The number 2 in the round is now the tops in the country, as was Adley but every other team could have picked Gunnar as their #1 and didn’t. The Os are now starting 3 or 4 players from that one draft on a regular basis. Has that been done before?

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