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Friday, October 06, 2006

Salon: King Kaufman’s Sports Daily

Don’t mess with Kaufman, (founder of the niche riche Hornsby Advocate)....when it comes to Rogers Hornsby!

The worst insult, and you’re going to think I’m overreacting but I think it was just unfathomable, came during Fox’s broadcast of Game 2 of the Dodgers-Mets series Thursday night. Announcer Thom Brennaman was rattling off some of Jeff Kent’s impressive statistics and he summed it up in that cadence of his: “Arguably the GRRRREATest offensive second baseman in the HISSSSSTory of the game.”

...Saying that Kent is arguably the greatest offensive second baseman in the history of the game is like saying Detroit is arguably the largest city in the United States. It’s like saying Echo and the Bunnymen are arguably the biggest-selling band in the hissssstory of Liverpool. Never mind arguable. It’s not even close to being anything like approximately true. I’m foaming at the mouth here.

Repoz Posted: October 06, 2006 at 04:43 PM | 46 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: announcers, dodgers, television

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1. Mushmouth Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:11 PM (#2200622)

Thanks, I thought it was just the benadryl kicking in when I heard that.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to check out some video I have of Phyllis Diller, arguably the hottest chick on the planet.

2. Maury Brown Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:15 PM (#2200625)

Gotta love the King. Priceless.

3. Urban Faber Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:19 PM (#2200631)

Brennaman is also going to be the voice of Fox's college football BCS coverage.

4. ian Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:22 PM (#2200635)

Hornsby's career OPS+ is 175, Kent's career year was 165

5. Mushmouth Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:26 PM (#2200637)

And speaking of bad announcers, you only need to summon up one of ESPN's more famous ones who played a little 2B before looking back to The Rajah.

6. Wolverine Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:26 PM (#2200638)

Primey for post #1.

Now I'll have the image of Phyllis Diller in my head the rest of the day. Yikes!!

7. Cris E Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:31 PM (#2200647)

Hornsby's career OPS+ is 175, Kent's career year was 165

Yeah but that's just OPS+. Back then everyone had a 175 - it was average. This is JEFF KENT we're talking about here, and he's appearing on Fox so we're going to talk him up. Besides, he's alive and this Hornaby character appears to be dead.

Ack.

8. themendozaline Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:34 PM (#2200652)

Try listening to over a 100 games of Brennaman in Arizona and the Fox Saturday Regional game, usually the Dodgers-D'Backs classic. Good Luck Red fans. And to actually believe that DBack fans are really going to miss this moron!

9. RichRifkin Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:36 PM (#2200655)

These are the top offensive second basemen in the Hall of Fame, in order of career OPS+, along with Jeff Kent, who played a minimum of 1,000 games at second base:

Rogers Hornsby 175 OPS+ (1561 games at second base)
Nap Lajoie 150 OPS+ (2035 games at second base)
Eddie Collins 141 OPS+ (2650 games at second base)
Joe Morgan 132 OPS+ (2527 games at second base)
Rod Carew 131 OPS+ (1130 games at second base)


Jeff Kent

126 OPS+ (1785 games at second base)
Charlie Gehringer 124 OPS+ (2206 games at second base)
Tony Lazzeri 121 (1456 games at second base)

10. salvomania Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:38 PM (#2200656)

The thing about TommyB that always got me was that annoying Woody Woodpecker laugh of his. Also the pencil-neck geek with the fake "announcer" voice thing, which Chip Caray also possesses.

11. Urban Faber Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:38 PM (#2200657)

And to actually believe that DBack fans are really going to miss this moron!

Well he is arguably the GRRRREATest broadcaster in the HISSSSSTory of the ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS.

12. Urban Faber Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:40 PM (#2200658)

Now I'll have the image of Phyllis Diller in my head the rest of the day. Yikes!!

HAH HAH HAHH!!

13. Francoeur Sans Gages (AlouGoodbye) Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:43 PM (#2200660)

And speaking of bad announcers, you only need to summon up one of ESPN's more famous ones who played a little 2B before looking back to The Rajah.

Say what you will about Joe Morgan, but he's never denigrated Rogers Hornsby, who he's praised as the greatest second baseman of all time, even when others have suggested that Morgan is better.

I saw him mention Nap Lajoie once, though, and he seemed rather unfamiliar with the guy. He had seen his plaque at the Hall of Fame, and he knew he was a second baseman, but that was about it. He said "Well, he's in the Hall of Fame, so he must have been a good player."

14. RichRifkin Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:44 PM (#2200662)

For what it's worth, these are Kent's and Hornsby's best offensive five seasons (per OPS+):

1. Kent 165 (2000) -- Hornsby 222 (1924)
2. Kent 152 (2002) -- Hornsby 210 (1925)
3. Kent 141 (1998) -- Hornsby 207 (1922)
4. Kent 136 (2005) -- Hornsby 200 (1928)
5. Kent 133 (2001) -- Hornsby 190 (1921)

15. JMM Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:46 PM (#2200664)

You have to love a sports columnist who can namedrop Echo & The Bunnymen.

16. RichRifkin Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:46 PM (#2200665)

One Alou,

If Moises leaves, will you become No Alous?

17. Francoeur Sans Gages (AlouGoodbye) Posted: October 06, 2006 at 05:49 PM (#2200669)

If Moises leaves, will you become No Alous?

Yep. At this stage I am resigned to my Alouless fate.

18. Chris in Wicker Park Posted: October 06, 2006 at 06:10 PM (#2200692)

I'll click on a Marriott ad anyday to read that. Nice.

19. JPWF13

Posted: October 06, 2006 at 06:14 PM (#2200698)

one of my co-workers commented this summer that he thought Kent was the best offensive 2B in history
I told him he was nuts
he said, "name one better"
I said Hornsby
he said "who?" (he's in his 20s...)
after i explained, he said "100 years ago" didn't count

okay i said, joe morgan
the espn joe morgan?
yes the espn joe morgan
are you kidding? he couldn't hit to save himself!
[i kid you not]
he's in the hall of fame i said
BS he said (maybe he was confusing joe with harold?)

10 minutes later after checking him out on bbref my co-worker said, ok he had some good years, but he's nowhere near the hitter Kent is

why does he think that? We all know why, it's the RBIs

20. Dr. Vaux Posted: October 06, 2006 at 06:16 PM (#2200704)

Well he is arguably the GRRRREATest broadcaster in the HISSSSSTory of the ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS.

Hilarious, Faber. And it isn't even arguable. Mediocre as he is, Greg Schulte is leagues better than Brenneman!

I feel that it's incumbant upon me to come up with a way to argue that Detroit is the largest city in the U.S. But I can't, so... I won't.

21. HowardMegdal

Posted: October 06, 2006 at 06:25 PM (#2200710)

I agree that the Kent as greatest idea won't fly, but does everyone think he is HOF?

22. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: October 06, 2006 at 06:29 PM (#2200718)

Rogers Hornsby 175 OPS+ (1561 games at second base)
Nap Lajoie 150 OPS+ (2035 games at second base)
Eddie Collins 141 OPS+ (2650 games at second base)
Joe Morgan 132 OPS+ (2527 games at second base)
Rod Carew 131 OPS+ (1130 games at second base)
Jeff Kent
126 OPS+ (1785 games at second base)
Charlie Gehringer 124 OPS+ (2206 games at second base)
Tony Lazzeri 121 (1456 games at second base)

You're missing Bobby Grich, who had a 125 OPS+ and played 1765 games at 2B (and 159 at SS, second only to Hornsby on the above list).

23. JMM Posted: October 06, 2006 at 06:34 PM (#2200727)

Grich, for some reason, is not a HoFer though. Probably should be, but isn't.

24. Jack Sommers Posted: October 06, 2006 at 06:36 PM (#2200729)

Thom just knows his audience. He knows that nobody but us gives a crap about Hornsby....and he is probably just highlighting Kents career for the average joe Dodger fan who will feel better knowing they have an "all time great" as their team goes down in flames.

I am not saying this is the right approach. I have oft criticized him for failing in the "teaching" aspect of his job. He preferes to dumb down the broadcast than say what he really feels and thinks. And what he really feels and thinks is at ALOT higher level than what he says on air.

In Arizona when they would talk about OPS on air, the broadcast booth e mail in box would get 5,000 hits asking why the heck they are talking "nucular phsysic" on air. When they talked about new nicknames for young prospects hitting the majors, they got over 20,000 hits in their inbox in the space of a day. THATS the audience. Not us.

25. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: October 06, 2006 at 06:39 PM (#2200733)

I missed where Rich was specifying HoFers. Sorry.

But Grich should be, and I'll point that out at every opportunity.

26. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: October 06, 2006 at 06:55 PM (#2200757)

what are the odds of having two Thom Brennaman thread in one day?

27. HowardMegdal

Posted: October 06, 2006 at 06:57 PM (#2200760)

Also, had Kent stayed with the Mets, he'd be the most loved Met ever, no?

28. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: October 06, 2006 at 07:55 PM (#2200802)

But he did say arguably!

Brennaman is also going to be the voice of Fox's college football BCS coverage.

"And here's Brady Quinn, arguably the greatest quarterback Notre Dame history"

Yikes.

29. Harveys Wallbangers

Posted: October 06, 2006 at 08:06 PM (#2200829)

In defense of Kent if you wanted a modern comp to Hornsby then the best guy for that is Kent.

Slugging second baseman
Mediocre defense
Regarded as something of a pr*ck

If someone wrote that as a player Jeff Kent was The Rajah's little brother that would be pretty accurate. And that is still a heckuva player.

Despite his rep I always give Kent his due. Primarily because he has managed to stay at second base into his late 30's and still contribute but even more so because I don't know ANYONE who thought he would have this type of career. MVP winner? Pretty impressive.

30. The Buddy Biancalana Hit Counter Posted: October 06, 2006 at 08:22 PM (#2200875)

what are the odds of having two Thom Brennaman thread in one day?

And neither one about his hair.

31. Rob Base Posted: October 06, 2006 at 08:51 PM (#2200937)

Maybe he forgot about Hornsby and was just trying to pwn Joe Morgan?

32. Rob Base Posted: October 06, 2006 at 08:54 PM (#2200944)

33. akrasian Posted: October 06, 2006 at 09:10 PM (#2200986)

If it's just the best hitting 2b then Morgan and Kent are somewhat close. If it's the best offensive 2b Morgan pulls away thanks to his baserunning.

34. BDC

Posted: October 06, 2006 at 09:18 PM (#2201005)

Even baserunning aside, Morgan has one of the highest walk totals in history, with a 9-5 W/K ratio. Kent's is more like 1-2, with less than half as many walks. Given their contexts, Morgan had home-run power just as good as Kent's, particularly at his peak. For several years in the mid-70s Morgan was the best offensive player in the NL, and while Kent has done very well, he has never been close to the best offensive player in his league, except when he was batting behind him :)

35. Rob Base Posted: October 06, 2006 at 09:50 PM (#2201063)

Well, if by peak you mean morgan had 1 year where he was significantly above the league average SLG, then sure, it was like Kent, but you can't really say with a straight face that their home run power was comparable for any significant stretch of time.

36. RichRifkin Posted: October 06, 2006 at 10:57 PM (#2201192)

Maybe my memories of Morgan from my childhood are incorrect, but I recall him as a great defensive second baseman, as well. He won 5 Gold Gloves, which I realize is sometimes unmerited. Yet he always looked very smooth to me on that Cincinnati carpet.

37. BDC

Posted: October 06, 2006 at 11:31 PM (#2201238)

morgan had 1 year where he was significantly above the league average SLG

I'm sorry, I don't understand. Morgan had several years where he was 100 points over the league average in SLG, and won one slugging title. Kent has never finished higher than eighth.

you can't really say with a straight face that their home run power was comparable for any significant stretch of time

The key is "given their contexts." At Morgan's peak, Mike Schmidt was winning home-run titles with totals under 40. At Kent's, 50-homer seasons weren't news at all.

38. Rob Base Posted: October 06, 2006 at 11:36 PM (#2201243)

I'm sorry, I don't understand. Morgan had several years where he was 100 points over the league average in SLG, and won one slugging title. Kent has never finished higher than eighth.

Yeah, you're right, I was looking at the wrong columns. Still, I'd like to see some SLG+ numbers. I figure Kent's must be significantly better because Morgan was such a better on-base guy and their ops+ is relatively close.

39. OCF Posted: October 06, 2006 at 11:40 PM (#2201247)

Yeah, I heard Brennaman said that. I nearly dropped the plate that was in my hand - "He said WHAT?"

Grich, for some reason, is not a HoFer though. Probably should be, but isn't.

Tell it to us over in the Hall of Merit. Of course, in our world, it's only 1987 and Grich won't be eligible until 1992. My gut feeling is that you'll find us pretty easy to persuade once Grich does become eligible.

Hornsby got a rare an interesting treatment from us in his first and only year of eligibility, 1941: out of 53 voters, all 53 put him second on the ballot. (All of the first place votes went to Babe Ruth). Collins had to wait for a second year to get elected, but he was competing with Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker (and Pop Lloyd and Smokey Joe Williams).

Is Kent a likely HoMer? Easily. Is he Hornsby or Morgan or Collins? Not hardly.

40. BDC

Posted: October 06, 2006 at 11:44 PM (#2201250)

Kent's must be significantly better because Morgan was such a better on-base guy and their ops+ is relatively close

Yes, I had to qualify my point as "peak" because in his early 20s and late 30s Morgan was not much of a power threat. Kent was more consistent, and of course has quite a few more career home runs than Morgan.

41. Bhaakon Posted: October 07, 2006 at 12:50 AM (#2201383)

The key is "given their contexts." At Morgan's peak, Mike Schmidt was winning home-run titles with totals under 40. At Kent's, 50-homer seasons weren't news at all.

Because the hitting conditions were really better, or because of better life through chemistry?

Not that I think HOF voters should be taking this into account (how can you every really know?) but if Kent is clean than the context is somewhat warped.

42. Srul Itza Posted: October 07, 2006 at 01:46 AM (#2201542)

their [Morgan and Kent] ops+ is relatively close.

Joe Morgan: 11,329 PA
Jeff Kent: 8,501 PA

Give Kent 2 more years of decline, and the OPS+ gap will grow.

Here is their best to worst, for all years with at least 300 PA (Morgan on the right):

187 --- 165
169 --- 152
159 --- 141
154 --- 136
149 --- 133
138 --- 130
135 --- 124
132 --- 118
130 --- 118
130 --- 111
117 --- 107
116 --- 106
115 --- 105
115 --- 105
113 --- 102
109
107
105
103

43. Shock has moved on Posted: October 07, 2006 at 01:50 AM (#2201547)

You must have meant the left, friend.

44. Exploring Leftist Conservatism since 2008 (ark..) Posted: October 07, 2006 at 05:42 AM (#2201895)

Despite his rep I always give Kent his due. Primarily because he has managed to stay at second base into his late 30's and still contribute but even more so because I don't know ANYONE who thought he would have this type of career. MVP winner? Pretty impressive.

I remember Bill James writing, at the time Kent was traded to the Mets from Toronto, that Kent was "real quality." I don't think he predicted a Hall of Fame career for him, but he did think Kent had a tremendously promising future.

45. AJMcCringleberry Posted: October 07, 2006 at 06:53 AM (#2201907)

Kent is barely the best hitting second baseman of the last 15 years.

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Salon: King Kaufman’s Sports Daily

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