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Wednesday, June 17, 2009

Selig: MLB held to higher standard than NFL on steroids

MLB commissioner Bud Selig joined the show to discuss several issues facing Major League Baseball. Here are some of his takes:

—Selig was upset that MLB gets ripped for the steroid problem while the NFL gets less coverage for it.

“Baseball is held to a higher and different standard,” Selig said.

Selig pointed out the 1970s Steelers. They allegedly used steroids, but no one is calling to take away their trophies.

“Steroids were and are a societal problem. Not a baseball problem,” Selig said.

Bud, nobody would go after the 1970s Steelers, they’d have to deal with Mean Joe Greene and Franco Harris. Would you want to deal with Mean Joe Greene and Franco Harris?

Thought not.

Gamingboy Posted: June 17, 2009 at 11:24 AM | 135 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: steroids

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1. Greg Pope Posted: June 17, 2009 at 11:59 AM (#3221930)

I wonder if this represents a change of tactics (or attitude) by the bosses of MLB. They've switched from "there are no steroids" to "we didn't know". Now are they switching to "everybody does it"? Not that it's not valid, but they've avoided this up until now, AFAIK.

2. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: June 17, 2009 at 12:04 PM (#3221932)

I don't really know that it will change anything, especially when Selig is the one delivering the message, but I'm all for calling out the media for their hypocrisy on this.

3. Chris Dial Posted: June 17, 2009 at 12:41 PM (#3221953)

Selig really let loose witht hat one. I can't imagine calling the NFL a bunch of cheaters is going to help relations between the sports.

4. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq., LLC Posted: June 17, 2009 at 12:42 PM (#3221955)

Now are they switching to "everybody does it"?

I think it's more "we're not the only ones" rather than "everyone does it". The latter is a weak excuse, the former is an admonition to not focus exclusively on baseball if your goals are pure.

Baseball has done a hell of a lot more than the NFL about this. They shouldn't be taking the majority of the criticism.

5. Greg Pope Posted: June 17, 2009 at 12:47 PM (#3221956)

You're right, Larry, but still, it's a shift for MLB to be openly saying "we got caught, but we're not the only ones". Even though it's not directly said, it's more of a "we" (owners and players) than a "they" (players). At least it seems that way to me.

6. RJ in TO Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:07 PM (#3221970)

Baseball has done a hell of a lot more than the NFL about this. They shouldn't be taking the majority of the criticism.

Well, sort of. Baseball, for a long time, was lagging badly behind the NFL in terms of actions to prevent steroid/PED use in the sport. While they've since surpassed the NFL in terms of their testing regimens (and penalties for a positive test), they've still got a while before they overcome the decade of inactivity which preceeded the introduction of testing, when the NFL testing program was supposedly in full operation (even if there were all sorts of stories and rumors about the NFL covering up assorted positive tests).

7. Levi Stahl Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:08 PM (#3221971)

Just glad to see it said openly, no matter the motives. Not that I expect NFL fans to care: on the whole, they seem relatively indifferent to the fates of pretty much anyone who's not a QB or star receiver. The constant churn of players and the short careers caused by a broken union and an inherently dangerous game are the main reason I can't really get into football.

That, and that baseball of course leaves no time for any other sport.

8. JJ1986 Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:14 PM (#3221976)

Maybe baseball is held to a higher standard because the commissioner of MLB is weak and whiney and never seemed to be in charge of the situation.

9. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:23 PM (#3221990)

Even the blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.

Selig is 100% right on this one.

10. The Pequod Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:26 PM (#3221996)

I'm glad they're going to make this case. You can say it's "everyone does it", but when it comes down to it there is no defense for the disparity between the way MLB and the NFL have been treated on the steroids issue.

Some will take this opportunity to gratuitously bash Selig, but one thing I'm sure you won't hear is a rationale for treating steroid use in the two leagues differently.

11. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:30 PM (#3221997)

Sure he's right, but in a way, it's probably a good thing that people are more passionate about the issue re: baseball.

12. The Original SJ Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:32 PM (#3222002)

Someone on another thread said that MLB is going to pass the NFL in overall revenue soon, is this true? documented somewhere?

13. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:35 PM (#3222006)

I am shocked no one raised an eyebrow at Super Bowl MVP James Harrison's rather meteoric ascent to the top of the NFL defensive rankings after starting off his NFL career by being cut 2 or 3 times. And yet there he was, pinning a helpless opponent down during the Super Bowl and throwing multiple punches at the guy's head while appearing to be completely out of control.

A couple of years ago the Steelers' team doc got busted for buying $150K worth of 'roids. No outrage was recorded to the best of my knowledge. When it comes to the NFL, fans and the media simply don't care about the PED issue all that much.

14. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:42 PM (#3222013)

15. Downtown Bookie

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:46 PM (#3222019)

A couple of years ago the Steelers' team doc got busted for buying $150K worth of 'roids.

He must have an incredible physique.

DB

16. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:47 PM (#3222023)

But the question here is how many Primates sincerely want fans to react to NFL juicers the way they do to Barry Bonds, vs. how many Primates just want fans to react to Barry Bonds the way they do to news of NFL juicers.

Yeah, this is kind of my point. I'm not a steroid crusader, but steroids in baeball bothers me more than steroids in the NFL. 1. I couldn't give a #### about the NFL. 2. Baseball, rightly or wrongly, does connect us to the past in the way no other American sports do. It's just BS nostalgia but I won't pretend to be immune to it. Steroids interrupt that emotional link. It's irrational, but I just need to accept that a large part of why I love the game and MLB is rooted in irrationality. I don't feel the need to throw stones at the players, but I do hope they can root the drugs out of the game. The realist in me knows that going forward, this is going to be impossible and I'll either accept chemically enhanced athletes or I'll have to find something else to occupy my time.

17. RJ in TO Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:51 PM (#3222028)

The realist in me knows that going forward, this is going to be impossible and I'll either accept chemically enhanced athletes or I'll have to find something else to occupy my time.

The NHL could really use your support. Since their drug of choice is alcohol (and lots of it), the only chemical enhanced thing you'll have to worry about is their inflated sense of self-esteem.

18. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:53 PM (#3222031)

The NHL could really use your support.

National Honkball League? Notional Hookers' Liaison? Northwest Hooters Luncheonaires?

19. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:53 PM (#3222032)

There's a double standard between the NFL and baseball in terms of public reaction to steroids, no question. But the question here is how many Primates sincerely want fans to react to NFL juicers the way they do to Barry Bonds, vs. how many Primates just want fans to react to Barry Bonds the way they do to news of NFL juicers. There's more than one type of motivation that sets off charges of "hypocrisy."

No, I want the media to crucify the NFL like they do MLB. I'm fine with the outrage of baseball fans, although there's probably more outrage from the media then the fans.

I just want to see similar outrage directed at the NFL. The media gives Barry Bonds (who I hate by the way) more grief for steroids than it gives Ray Lewis for conspiring after the fact in a murder. That's the serious imbalance.

20. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:12 PM (#3222050)

The difference is simple. The NFL has punished those testing positive. Name players, too, like Julius Peppers and Rodney Harrison. Meanwhile, baseball players who are known or thought to have used PEDs, A-Rod, Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, Palmeiro, McGwire, got off scot-free. That's two hall of fame classes at least.

Meanwhile, look at the latest Pro Football inductees: Bruce Smith, Rod Woodson, Derrick Thomas, Randall McDaniel. None of their name has even been whispered in connection with steroids. That doesn't mean they're clean, but it's a marked difference from MLB.

21. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:20 PM (#3222057)

The difference is simple. The NFL has punished those testing positive. Name players, too, like Julius Peppers and Rodney Harrison. Meanwhile, baseball players who are known or thought to have used PEDs, A-Rod, Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, Palmeiro, McGwire, got off scot-free. That's two hall of fame classes at least.

Scot-free from baseball, no question, but not necessarily from the HoF ballot. Which is about the only way that there's ever going to be to make a concrete collective judgment on baseball juicing, however imperfectly.

22. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:25 PM (#3222060)

For about the 400th time, the Hall of Fame voters shall show us the way. Come on already.

And the Tacoma Narrows Bridge was the only concrete span over Puget Sound, however imperfect.

23. The Pequod Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:26 PM (#3222061)

The difference is simple. The NFL has punished those testing positive. Name players, too, like Julius Peppers and Rodney Harrison.

In that case, I look forward to Manny being welcomed back by a media whose consensus opinion is "he did his time".

LOL!

24. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:26 PM (#3222064)

But the question here is how many Primates sincerely want fans to react to NFL juicers the way they do to Barry Bonds, vs. how many Primates just want fans to react to Barry Bonds the way they do to news of NFL juicers.

Yeah, this is kind of my point. I'm not a steroid crusader, but steroids in baseball bothers me more than steroids in the NFL. 1. I couldn't give a #### about the NFL. 2. Baseball, rightly or wrongly, does connect us to the past in the way no other American sports do. It's just BS nostalgia but I won't pretend to be immune to it. Steroids interrupt that emotional link. It's irrational, but I just need to accept that a large part of why I love the game and MLB is rooted in irrationality. I don't feel the need to throw stones at the players, but I do hope they can root the drugs out of the game. The realist in me knows that going forward, this is going to be impossible and I'll either accept chemically enhanced athletes or I'll have to find something else to occupy my time.

That's a good and honest answer. IMO we don't have to like or "accept" the juicers, or honor them in retirement, but the game of baseball is a lot bigger than any of them, and on one level this whole melodrama has even made baseball a bit more interesting---as long as we aren't under any illusions about the true nature of what the juicers did.

25. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:28 PM (#3222065)

And the Tacoma Narrows Bridge was the only concrete span over Puget Sound, however imperfect.

I never get tired of this footage. It's mesmerizing.

26. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:28 PM (#3222066)

Name players, too, like Julius Peppers and Rodney Harrison.

Who are Julius Peppers and Rodney Harrison? I'd be willing to bet that most casual sports fans have very little idea who those two guys are, while almost every casual sports fan knows who Alex Rodriguez and Sammy Sosa are.

Football gets held to a lower standard because football players (with the exception of a few big-name quarterbacks and running backs) are disposable slabs of meat, while baseball players are immortals. Nobody gives a crap what happens to Rodney Harrison in ten years.

27. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:29 PM (#3222069)

For about the 400th time, the Hall of Fame voters shall show us the way. Come on already.

Not necessarily, but they just might show a few juicers the door. That'll be enough for me. You can set up a shrine in your basement to honor them if you think that they deserve our pity.

28. DCA Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:31 PM (#3222073)

I'm not a steroid crusader, but steroids in baeball bothers me more than steroids in the NFL.

Steroids in football bothers me much more than steroids in baseball. In baseball, if you take steroids, you harm yourself (whatever side effects there may be), you harm others indirectly (the coercion of usage). In football, you also directly harm others because when you get bigger and stronger you hit harder, and that has consequences.

29. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:32 PM (#3222075)

Nobody gives a crap what happens to Rodney Harrison in ten years.

I disagree. I think a lot of people wouldn't mind reading a headline saying "Rodney Harrison devoured by pack of wild dogs."

30. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:33 PM (#3222076)

Who are Julius Peppers and Rodney Harrison? I'd be willing to bet that most casual sports fans have very little idea who those two guys are

Depends on what you mean by "casual," doesn't it? Go to any sports bar on any Sunday afternoon in the Fall, or tune in any sports talk show when the discussion comes around to football, and you won't find many who don't know who those two guys are, if only by osmosis.

31. DCA Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:33 PM (#3222077)

Football gets held to a lower standard because football players (with the exception of a few big-name quarterbacks and running backs)

Every halfway decent quarterback, running back, receiver, and kicker has name recognition because of fantasy scoring. Defensive players don't accumulate stats, so they're anonymous.

32. JJ1986 Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:34 PM (#3222078)

Who are Julius Peppers and Rodney Harrison?

If you don't know who these guys are, then you don't know who any defenders or lineman are. I think most football fans have heard of them. Each was one of the top defensive players in his prime, and both have made the news for other things. Harrison because it was actually a deal when he tested positive for HGH and was suspended. Peppers was a top top draft pick and has made headlines this year by demanding a trade.

33. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:35 PM (#3222080)

Every halfway decent quarterback, running back, receiver, and kicker has name recognition because of fantasy scoring. Defensive players don't accumulate stats, so they're anonymous.

I don't know. I can still remember the names of most of the 1980 Raiders defense. Ted Hendricks, Lester Hayes, Rod Martin...

34. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:36 PM (#3222082)

Not necessarily, but they just might show a few juicers the door. That'll be enough for me. You can set up a shrine in your basement to honor them if you think that they deserve our pity.

Basement? Really?

I'd rather take an awl into the hall of plaques, and gouge an asterisk into Cal Ripken's forehead. Just to keep the conversation with history vibrant, and spark debate. Alas, it'll be one-sided rhetorical horseshit that even I don't personally believe, but that'll be enough for me.

35. SouthSideRyan Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:37 PM (#3222087)

Here's the issue, (beyond the fact that NFL testing is in all likelihood a massive joke) these guys serve their suspension, and the positive test is never mentioned again. If Merriman continues at his current pace he'll fly into the HOF, and nobody will give a #### that he tested positive. People don't care about football players, they care about football teams.

36. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:38 PM (#3222088)

Depends on what you mean by "casual," doesn't it? Go to any sports bar on any Sunday afternoon in the Fall, or tune in any sports talk show when the discussion comes around to football, and you won't find many who don't know who those two guys are, if only by osmosis.

Yeah, but the football equivalent of ARod/Bonds/Sosa is Manning/Brady/Tomlinson etc.

Harrison and Peppers is like Canseco and Palmeiro.

37. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:40 PM (#3222090)

People don't care about football players, they care about football teams.

And the spread!

But you're right. I think this is why baseball cards have always dwarfed football cards in popularity.

38. DCA Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:43 PM (#3222094)

I don't know. I can still remember the names of most of the 1980 Raiders defense. Ted Hendricks, Lester Hayes, Rod Martin...

You were probably more than a casual fan then. I can still name most of the 49ers defense of the same era. But I can't name one player on that side of the ball today, and don't they just have a high draft pick turn into the league's leading tackler? I don't remember his name.

39. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:44 PM (#3222096)

You were probably more than a casual fan then. I can still name most of the 49ers defense of the same era. But I can't name one player on that side of the ball today, and don't they just have a high draft pick turn into the league's leading tackler? I don't remember his name.

Tackles are a near worthless stat, but it's Patrick Willis, and he's very good.

40. JJ1986 Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:45 PM (#3222099)

You were probably more than a casual fan then. I can still name most of the 49ers defense of the same era. But I can't name one player on that side of the ball today, and don't they just have a high draft pick turn into the league's leading tackler? I don't remember his name.

Probably Patrick Willis. I don't know about the tackles, but he's a recent draftee, ILB, for the team.

41. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:45 PM (#3222100)

If you don't know who these guys are, then you don't know who any defenders or lineman are.

Most people don't know who any defenders or linemen are, with the possible exception of someone like Brian Urlacher or some guys on their favorite team. You have to be a football fan to know who most of these guys are.

42. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:46 PM (#3222103)

You were probably more than a casual fan then. I can still name most of the 49ers defense of the same era. But I can't name one player on that side of the ball today, and don't they just have a high draft pick turn into the league's leading tackler? I don't remember his name.

I was only 9! I couldn't name more than 3 players on the 49ers now. I can still name a lot of the 1981 team, though. That's more a product of me not caring anymore and not watching ESPN, though.

Dan Bunz! Dan Bunz!

43. Randy Jones

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:47 PM (#3222105)

The NHL could really use your support. Since their drug of choice is alcohol (and lots of it), the only chemical enhanced thing you'll have to worry about is their inflated sense of self-esteem.

I've seen this and similar things said before about the NHL and it is total and utter bullshit. Look at the size of NHL players now versus just 10 years ago. I have no doubt that steroids and other PEDs are just as prevalent in the NHL as they are in the NFL and MLB.

44. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:57 PM (#3222118)

There are a lot of reasons why football's P.R. on steroids has been different from baseball's, and baseball fans should embrace many of those reasons. Baseball's popularity is boosted in part on its statistical record. It's foolish to pretend that steroids haven't had a huge negative impact on that aspect of goodwill. And that's the case whether you consider baseball's emphasis on records as a cynical marketing tool, or as a warm father-son continuum.

The moderately attentive fan could likely tell you what player had the most stolen bases, for instance, or the most Gold Gloves. Many (if not most) avid football fans couldn't say who's got the most career touchdowns. The emphases are just different.

However, it's hardly an act of retaliatory hypocrisy to point out the comparative free ride that the NFL has enjoyed on steroid use. It's calling attention to a central flaw in the "media outrage" that can't be argued away.

Neither is it a clarion call to get the relevant pundits and officials to take their most moronic or insincere reactions to baseball's PED problem, and double down. The media has already screwed up twice on the subject; I don't think three times would prove the charm.

45. RJ in TO Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:02 PM (#3222123)

I have no doubt that steroids and other PEDs are just as prevalent in the NHL as they are in the NFL and MLB.

First, it was a joke.

Second, I have no doubt that steroids and other PEDs are used in the NHL. I do doubt, however, that it's anywhere near as prevalent as it is in MLB and the NFL. While the NHL policy isn't as rigid as that of MLB (or it may be, but it's hard to tell since details aren't nearly as available), there are a huge chunk of players who are subject to international testing, from the Junior levels on up - Junior Championships, World Championships, World Cup, Olympics, and so on - and there have been almost no positive tests (only three I'm aware of, with one of them being for the masking agent Rogaine).

Of course, as I've also mentioned before, this low rate of positives could just mean that NHL players have a lot more practice in evading the major testing techniques.

46. Randy Jones

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:06 PM (#3222127)

First, it was a joke.

It did seem like too stupid a statement for you to actually believe it. However, I have heard it many, many times from NHL fans who were absolutely serious when they said it, so I wasn't sure.

47. RJ in TO Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:12 PM (#3222135)

It did seem like too stupid a statement for you to actually believe it. However, I have heard it many, many times from NHL fans who were absolutely serious when they said it, so I wasn't sure.

Nah, as I said, I'm sure there is some PED use in the NHL, but I do think it's less than the other major sports (assuming that the NHL still counts as "major").

I also do believe that alcohol is currently a bigger potential problem for the NHL, but that's mostly because (generally speaking) hockey players are colossal drunks, and drinking is extremely heavily integrated in the game - I never hear much about guys getting tagged for PED use, but stories involving players getting stupidly drunk and arrested (or killing themself or someone else) are pretty common.

48. JJ1986 Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:14 PM (#3222136)

I don't even know who has the most Gold Gloves.

49. Randy Jones

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:16 PM (#3222139)

I also do believe that alcohol is currently a bigger potential problem for the NHL, but that's mostly because (generally speaking) hockey players are colossal drunks, and drinking is extremely heavily integrated in the game - I never hear much about guys getting tagged for PED use, but stories involving players getting stupidly drunk and arrested (or killing themself or someone else) are pretty common.

And that is different from the other major sports how? Donte Stallworth, Leonard Little, Jim Leyritz, Josh Hancock, Scott Speizio, etc, etc, etc...

50. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:19 PM (#3222144)

I don't even know who has the most Gold Gloves.

Same here. But I do know who has the most career TD's. And he is every bit as famous as any retired baseball player.

51. SouthSideRyan Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:22 PM (#3222145)

I don't even know who has the most Gold Gloves

Jim Kaat?

52. RJ in TO Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:23 PM (#3222147)

And that is different from the other major sports how? Donte Stallworth, Leonard Little, Jim Leyritz, Josh Hancock, Scott Speizio, etc, etc, etc...

Based on purely anecdotal evidence - I've never known a hockey player who hasn't had a major problem with alcohol.

53. RJ in TO Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:25 PM (#3222148)

Jim Kaat?

Didn't Greg Maddux take the lead from him?

54. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:25 PM (#3222149)

Based on purely anecdotal evidence - I've never known a hockey player who hasn't had a major problem with alcohol.

You must know like, three players. Alcohol is a problem with hockey players, but you're implying that they're all drunkards.

55. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:29 PM (#3222151)

Baseball, rightly or wrongly, does connect us to the past in the way no other American sports do. It's just BS nostalgia but I won't pretend to be immune to it.

I think this is a huge reason MLB is viewed differently than any other sport in regards to steroids. People want baseball to be a reflection of the 'good old days' and steroids mar that.

On a side note, I have never understood the contempt/vitriol/nastiness directed towards other sports than can be seen in posts here. I enjoy watching baseball. I don't really care about the history as much as others here do, but I have a great time watching and discussing MLB. I also enjoy the NFL, NBA, NCAA basketball, alpine skiing and golf. I don't watch other sports, but I understand why someone would get enjoyment out of them. I would never dis the NHL just because I don't follow it. NASCAR may certainly paint a red neck bulls-eye on it chest but I can see why it would be fun to watch. Why do posters here feel the need to piss on other sports they do not watch?

56. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:32 PM (#3222157)

I don't like the "everyone is doing it" argument, but....I have been frustrated that the NFL gets a pass on steroids, when steroids are MUCH more damaging in the NFL than in MLB. If Barry Bonds wants to ruin his body, that's his business. I get the "he'll influence the kids" angle, and that is a concern. But he's not directly hurting opposing players.

But in the NFL, a roid user can do serious damage to other non-roid users. More PEDs = more violent collisions. There are guys from the 50s and 60s who can't walk and suffer serious neurological impairments. What are guys from this era going to suffer from? Assuming they live past age 45?

I think part of the problem is baseball is such an individual sports, whereas the NFL is a team sport. Barry Bonds is in the limelight. He is the one breaking records. Meanwhile, the Carolina Panthers can reach a Super Bowl where half the team is on steroids, and no one seems to bat an eye.

I think Shooty is also right in that baseball gets held to a higher standard I think because it is a game that connects better with kids than football. Thus, we like to see the game played the way it was when we grew up (less home runs), and we want the game "purer" than other sports (to protect the children)

I think baseball should be held to a higher standard, but I don't like that talk of steroids in the NFL is pretty much non-existent despite the fact that usage is likely still quite high.

57. RJ in TO Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:32 PM (#3222158)

You must know like, three players. Alcohol is a problem with hockey players, but you're implying that they're all drunkards.

Which is why I qualified it earlier with "generally speaking." You're right, in that not all hockey players are drunks, but drinking (to excess) is an extremely big part of hockey culture, and not just at the pro-level.

58. SouthSideRyan Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:32 PM (#3222160)

#55, I think it's reactionary to the way baseball gets portrayed by everyone who isn't a baseball fan(slow, boring, full of cheaters)

59. The Good Face Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:32 PM (#3222161)

I do doubt, however, that it's anywhere near as prevalent as it is in MLB and the NFL. While the NHL policy isn't as rigid as that of MLB (or it may be, but it's hard to tell since details aren't nearly as available), there are a huge chunk of players who are subject to international testing, from the Junior levels on up - Junior Championships, World Championships, World Cup, Olympics, and so on - and there have been almost no positive tests (only three I'm aware of, with one of them being for the masking agent Rogaine).

Considering how frequently PED use comes up in the Olympics (and every other form of serious international competition), I don't find this particularly compelling. Steroid use was common on my college's hockey team, and that was small time D2. Hell, there were several guys on my college club rugby team using steroids and the stakes don't get much lower than that.

To sum up, I assume that PED use is rampant in the NHL... just like in every other competitive sport where increased speed/strength are valuable.

60. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:33 PM (#3222162)

In that case, I look forward to Manny being welcomed back by a media whose consensus opinion is "he did his time".

I think Ramirez will be much better-treated than Bonds or Sosa.

Who are Julius Peppers and Rodney Harrison? I'd be willing to bet that most casual sports fans have very little idea who those two guys are, while almost every casual sports fan knows who Alex Rodriguez and Sammy Sosa are.

You're kidding, right? I'd put Peppers and Harrison in the top 50 most famous players in football today (at least, before Harrison retired). Both will be in Hall of Fame discussions.

Harrison and Peppers is like Canseco and Palmeiro.

Yes. So? Those are pretty big names. If you're saying that baseball's PED crisis has involved even bigger names, you're reinforcing my point.

61. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:33 PM (#3222163)

I don't even know who has the most Gold Gloves.

Rafael Palmeiro?

62. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:35 PM (#3222166)

Which is why I qualified it earlier with "generally speaking."

But then you said every player you've ever known is an alcoholic. Well, how many do you know? I've worked in hockey, from my experiences the number of alcoholics isn't as high as you are portraying.

63. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:38 PM (#3222170)

You're kidding, right? I'd put Peppers and Harrison in the top 50 most famous players in football today (at least, before Harrison retired). Both will be in Hall of Fame discussions.

That doesn't mean they are well known by casual sports fans. Football is a much more anonymous sports, where team is emphasized above individual player. The top guys are pretty well known - Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Terrell Owens, Brian Urlacher, Tony Romo, Jason Taylor - but I'd bet there is a pretty significant drop-off after that among casual sports fans. I don't think most casual sports fans have heard of Julius Peppers or Rodney Harrison, despite their talents.

64. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:40 PM (#3222173)

I don't even know who has the most Gold Gloves.

Same here. But I do know who has the most career TD's. And he is every bit as famous as any retired baseball player.

And that's why I said "for instance." If you don't like "Gold Gloves," replace it with batting average or strikeouts or walks or saves or home runs or wins.

Is anybody suggesting that the NFL's all-time marks have anything approaching the mainstream cachet of baseball's statistical records?

And as #55 notes, it doesn't mean very much that LaDainian Tomlinson's single-season rushing TD record or Flipper Anderson's 336-yard game aren't unforgettably embedded in many football fans' minds. Football and baseball are simply different numbers games. Which is one reason why people care more about steroids' perceived effect on MLB history than those of the other team sports.

65. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:43 PM (#3222177)

I get the "he'll influence the kids" angle, and that is a concern.

To me, the concern is the coercive effect on other players. It's a health and safety issue, and if players think they need to do PEDs to keep up, they'll do PEDs. Now, that means that yes, I'm calling out the sports media for holding Sammy Sosa to a higher standard than Pablo Ozuna. If it's bad for one, it's bad for both.

You're kidding, right? I'd put Peppers and Harrison in the top 50 most famous players in football today (at least, before Harrison retired). Both will be in Hall of Fame discussions.

There's only maybe half-dozen really famous players in football at any one time. Everyone else is relatively anonymous. And does anyone really care about the Pro Football hall of fame?

Guys like Sosa, Rodriguez, and Bonds are much, much bigger names than any defensive football players.

66. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:45 PM (#3222180)

The top guys are pretty well known - Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Terrell Owens, Brian Urlacher, Tony Romo, Jason Taylor

I wouldn't call half those guys "top." The latter two are more popular for their off the field endeavors than their on the field play.

67. bads85 Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:48 PM (#3222184)

I'd put Peppers and Harrison in the top 50 most famous players in football today (at least, before Harrison retired).

"Top fifty in football today" is a pretty damn wide boundary for fame. Who is the fiftieth most famous baseball player today?

68. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:50 PM (#3222189)

I wouldn't call half those guys "top." The latter two are more popular for their off the field endeavors than their on the field play.

Sorry, I meant "most famous."

Who is the fiftieth most famous baseball player today?

Frank Tanana.

69. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:51 PM (#3222191)

So, no love for Dan Bunz?

70. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:53 PM (#3222193)

Most marketable athletes in the USA

Not quite an exact measure of fame but knowing who someone is certainly plays into marketability.

I think a lot of people here are pretty far off-base with their understanding of what a 'casual sports fan' knows about football.

71. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:53 PM (#3222195)

Sorry, I meant "most famous."

Famous I'll give you, but Brian Urlacher?

72. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq., LLC Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:53 PM (#3222196)

Who is the fiftieth most famous baseball player today?

Probably someone like Robinson Cano.

73. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:55 PM (#3222199)

Famous I'll give you, but Brian Urlacher?

He was linked romantically to Paris Hilton and does ads for Old Spice and Campbell's Soup. His jersey is consistently one of the top five sold in the NFL. He is famous.

74. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:57 PM (#3222204)

He was linked romantically to Paris Hilton and does ads for Old Spice and Campbell's Soup. His jersey is consistently one of the top five sold in the NFL. He is famous.

And Vitamin Water. He's definitely very famous.

75. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 03:58 PM (#3222207)

I think a lot of people here are pretty far off-base with their understanding of what a 'casual sports fan' knows about football.

That list is interesting. "Tigers Woods" and "Reggie Busch." And Teemu Selanne is on there.

76. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:00 PM (#3222210)

He was linked romantically to Paris Hilton and does ads for Old Spice and Campbell's Soup. His jersey is consistently one of the top five sold in the NFL. He is famous.

He dated Paris Hilton for like 5 minutes and that was 6 or 7 years ago, and he doesn't do those ads anymore. He's certainly more famous than LBs that are better than him, I'll give you that.

77. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:00 PM (#3222211)

"Tigers Woods" and "Reggie Busch."

Are you surprised about these? Tiger is probably in the running for most famous person in the world right now. And while Busch is looking more like a bust he certainly had unbelievable hype coming out of college.

78. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:01 PM (#3222214)

Are you surprised about these?

They're typos, which is kind of funny on a list of famous people.

79. JJ1986 Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:03 PM (#3222217)

Is Jason Taylor more well known than Peppers and Harrison? He's a great player, but I didn't realize he was that famous.

80. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:03 PM (#3222219)

#78 - Ah, totally missed that.

81. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:04 PM (#3222223)

Is Jason Taylor more well known than Peppers and Harrison? He's a great player, but I didn't realize he was that famous.

He was on Dancing With the Stars, your mother probably knows who is he because of that. I know mine does.

82. Downtown Bookie

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:05 PM (#3222226)

He dated Paris Hilton for like 5 minutes

My understanding is that's about all the time that's needed with Paris Hilton.

DB

83. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:05 PM (#3222227)

Is Jason Taylor more well known than Peppers and Harrison? He's a great player, but I didn't realize he was that famous.

Peppers and Harrison should learn to dance.

edit: Coke to the Dr.

84. cardsfanboy

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:05 PM (#3222229)

You're kidding, right? I'd put Peppers and Harrison in the top 50 most famous players in football today (at least, before Harrison retired). Both will be in Hall of Fame discussions.

I understand the Harrison comment, but I have absolutely no clue who in the heck Peppers is, and I've only stopped paying attention to football the last two seasons. Of course I'm a local fan, meaning I focuse first on the Rams, then their conference, league and then worry about the AFC last. But Canseco was always famous, Palmeiro less so. I don't doubt that this Peppers guy is one of the 50 best players in the game, but most famous? off the top of my head I would say there are probably 20 quarterbacks more well known, 10-15 running backs, 10-15 receivers, 5 kickers, and several defensive linemen and safeties that are probably more well know (after looking it up, I see that he plays for Carolina which also explains his lack of recognition)

I agree with the majority here, football isn't really about the individual players, people ultimately follow their team more than they care about the individuals. I agree with Bud here, the other sports aren't treated as seriously as baseball when it comes to the ped issue. and to the person that claims hockey doesn't have a problem, I find it to be hilarious, I knew of guys who played recreationally who used peds, the sport is the one sport where it's almost a requirement to use peds. next to pitchers, I can't think of any other athletes that require the benefits of steroids more, add in the small amount of money that they get paid where any improvements could bring you up quickly in salary and I find thinking they don't use is just ignoring the obviousness.

85. GM Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:06 PM (#3222230)

Someone on another thread said that MLB is going to pass the NFL in overall revenue soon, is this true? documented somewhere?

86. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:07 PM (#3222232)

after looking it up, I see that he plays for Carolina which also explains his lack of recognition

Yeah, it's not like he played in a Super Bowl or something.

87. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:18 PM (#3222245)

Peppers is no longer a top 50 in terms of quality. About 5 years ago, every Sportscenter was required to call him "The Freak" about 10 times.

88. cardsfanboy

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:19 PM (#3222247)

Well, they certainly were on pace to after last year, as both sports were well within a billion dollars of each other, with MLB growing at a much, much faster rate. Given this downturn, though, I wonder if they will. I mean, I have to assume MLB relies far more on ticket sales than the NFL, and that almost has to be the largest variable in this economic climate.

depends on how much their websites figure into their revenue and whether their 'spinoffs' count. They are now hosting/sponsoring or whatever Tiger Woods website which could bring in some revenue (their website is a cash cow)

Yeah, it's not like he played in a Super Bowl or something.
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playing in the superbowl doesn't mean much, he wasn't even a pro-bowler until after his superbowl run. I think most people on here are sports fans and many casual football fans, and it seems almost all of us are saying "who is Julius Peppers?" again we just don't see him as a famous player outside of to harder core fans of the game. I don't expect a casual fan to know who Ryan Ludwick, Pat Burrel, Carlos Delgado, or even Mark Buerhle to be, but should be able to name Pujols, Howard, Santana or Thome.

89. cardsfanboy

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:20 PM (#3222250)

Peppers is no longer a top 50 in terms of quality. About 5 years ago, every Sportscenter was required to call him "The Freak" about 10 times

ok, now I do remember the freak, that was a guy with what appeared to be abnormally large arms.

90. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:26 PM (#3222259)

About 5 years ago, every Sportscenter was required to call him "The Freak" about 10 times.

That was Jevon Kearse. Well, both.

playing in the superbowl doesn't mean much, he wasn't even a pro-bowler until after his superbowl run.

Which was his 2nd year in the league. The year before he was defensive Rookie of the Year. My point was that he's been in the spotlight.

I agree that Peppers isn't that popular of a player though.

91. JJ1986 Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:26 PM (#3222260)

Jevon Kearse was the Freak.

92. SoSH U at work Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:27 PM (#3222263)

ok, now I do remember the freak, that was a guy with what appeared to be abnormally large arms.

I thought the Freak was the other guy. Played for the Titans. Something Kearse.

Edit: Cokes to JJ and Dr. Love for being quicker and more complete.

93. JJ1986 Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:31 PM (#3222271)

Peppers also played basketball at UNC. There is probably another whole group of people who know him for that.

94. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:39 PM (#3222282)

I understand the Harrison comment, but I have absolutely no clue who in the heck Peppers is

after looking it up, I see that he plays for Carolina which also explains his lack of recognition

Yeah, it's not like he played in a Super Bowl or something.

And was also a much-heralded sixth man on a Carolina basketball team that was on ESPN about twice a week and made it to the Final Four.

95. Obama Bomaye Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:49 PM (#3222297)

he doesn't do those ads anymore

Maybe not "anymore," but I'm quite sure his Old Spice (or whatever it was) ad in which they show the clip of him as a 12-year-old in some Dungeons & Dragons crew was being shown within the last year.

96. Jose Canusee Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:52 PM (#3222303)

Bud, nobody would go after the 1970s Steelers, they’d have to deal with Mean Joe Greene and Franco Harris. Would you want to deal with Mean Joe Greene and Franco Harris?
Bud: Put the little kid with the Coke bottle on Mean Joe and Jack ("Assassin") Tatum on Franco "The Wuss" Harris. Jack Lambert might be a different matter.

97. phredbird

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:52 PM (#3222304)

haven't RTFA or even most of this thread, but i don't have a problem with baseball being held to a higher standard. it's a superior game to football in every way. what frustrates me is how NFL and college football are so popular in this society. it's a stupid game that cripples its players before throwing them on the trash heap, and the public laps it up. ugh.

okay, i sound like an elitist. so be it. i'm scarred against football after going to high school in small town louisiana and then attending LSU. it's a devouring beast.

i have only the vaguest idea who peppers and harrison are, and i'm glad.

98. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:55 PM (#3222309)

i have only the vaguest idea who peppers and harrison are, and i'm glad.

Uh oh. You just disrespected Rodney Harrison. He is not going to take that lightly.

99. SoSH U at work Posted: June 17, 2009 at 05:06 PM (#3222327)

it's a stupid game that cripples its players before throwing them on the trash heap, and the public laps it up. ugh.

And this is why we don't care about steroid use in the NFL. Football players are faceless and disposable. It's hard to get worked up about what guys put into their bodies in pursuit of a championship when they are largely anonymous to us.

100. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 17, 2009 at 05:07 PM (#3222329)

i have only the vaguest idea who peppers and harrison are, and i'm glad.

Peppers taught the band to play, 20 years ago today. Harrison was in the band.

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