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Wednesday, April 06, 2011
Sherman: Rafael Soriano: Silent treatment speaks volumes
ATTACK! This is bloodier than Jack Palance’s tank-shredded right arm!
After his first meltdown as a Yankee, which led to a 5-4 Minnesota triumph in 10 innings last night, Soriano vanished. He never came to his locker. A flustered Yankees media relations official conceded Soriano probably dressed quickly and departed, leaving others to explain his ineffectiveness.
This would not be quite as big a deal if Soriano’s reputation were closer to pristine. But in previous stops in Atlanta and Tampa Bay, he was known for being prickly, reclusive, determined not to be used in any way, but how he thought fit. Last year he expected, for example, to be deployed only for a full inning in save situations.
...Thus, when his attention and fastball seem off, there is natural wonder if Soriano does not think 4-0 in the eighth inning is worth his full attention. That would have been among the questions asked had he handled last night with professionalism. Instead, he fled, leaving uncertainty if this was a singular poor effort for a talented pitcher or a bad omen for a bad actor.
...But really, this game was lost in the eighth. Was it because of the cold that Soriano faltered? Pitching the day before? Unfamiliarity with the role? Or anger at being asked to take the ball at 4-0 in the eighth? Soriano played to the worst of his reputation and was not around to answer.
He took a bribe to come here for a role he did not really want. Maybe money really can’t buy happiness.
Repoz
Posted: April 06, 2011 at 09:31 AM | 92 comment(s)
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1. Walt Davis Posted: April 06, 2011 at 10:01 AM (#3787533)I know for sure that if I had a bad day, I would not hang around to have a bunch of idiots with microphones and cameras ask me why I sucked that day.
ATTACK! This is bloodier than Jack Palance’s tank-shredded right arm!I remember that movie, and I winced many years later when Palance did pushups on the Academy Award Show. Forget Tommy John surgery, Jack Palance surgery, without anesthesia per Jack' instructions, far superior.
I don't remember who kills Eddie Albert in the movie (although I think it may be everybody). Thanks Repoz I have just requested the movie from my library, its a forgotten classic.
It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The reporters claim it causes problems in the clubhouse then go around and ask every player about the guy bailing out which causes the problem. To that extent, the reporters are right, but it's a bit of a sleazy approach roughly equivalent with a 3 year old telling you he is going to throw a temper tantrum if he doesn't get a toy.
Well, there you go.
I think most teams would consider that to be part of the player's job.
I think players legitimately dislike it when the people who the reporters really will want to talk to, especially goats of the game, pull a disappearing act. Look at a lot of the Yankees quotes last night. There were a bunch of "I guess" or "you'll have to ask him" kinds of things when they talked about Soriano. I could be imagining it, but I senses some low-level aggravation.
The Yankees have made a point to give their players media training. A big part of this is facing the music after a bad game. When Soriano doesn't do that he's both ticking off his teammates and not going along with the team's program.
Put differently, this is not some media invention. It's a real issue. Maybe not as big a one as it will get blown up into today, but it's real.
That was the most insightful thing on this topic that has been said by anyone on this site. Good recall on the Wagner quote. Since talking to the media is part of a player's job, screwing up and leaving others to do it for you is not a way to engender yourself to teammates.
I agree, if more reporters were hit on the head obnoxious reporters, yes I'm talking about you Simers, would go away.
Said after describing how it's a media invention.
That some players get annoyed that others aren't pulling their weight on the being-annoyed-by-hacks-who-are-too-lazy-to-write-their-own-stories front doesn't mean the root of the problem isn't the untalented d-bags who require quotes to fill inches.
I don't understand how you can paint the entire media with such a broad brush. I don't know who's blog or articles you read, but I've been reading Sherman's articles for a while now and your characterization is uninformed and unfounded. Posters on this website gets their panties all in a bunch when people characterize them as geeks living in their mom's basement but feel they can ascribe all baseball writers and beat reporters the same motiviations and skills based on a small sample size of the local columnists in their local paper. All sports columnists aren't untalented d-bags who require quotes to fill inches, maybe it's just the one you've been reading.
And this article isn't about the low-level aggravation he caused his teammates by forcing them to answer questions about him. Rather, the article is about how Soriano's silence suggests that he will continue to fail because he's a head case who doesn't want to be in New York as a setup man.
QFT.
The idea that sportswriters chase after quotes from players because they're lazy is just nutty. It would be far easier for sportswriters to simply sit in the press box after the game and type rather than go to the clubhouse and try to get quotes for their stories.
Sportswriters try to get quotes from the key players in the game because they think that's what their readers want. They might be wrong about this, and it might be unfair of them to attack players for not giving them quotes, but it has absolutely nothing to do with laziness.
Fact: Rafael Soriano's personality problems are not an invented issue. His history of playing poorly (or with perceived -- by teammates and coaches, not media -- petulance) when brought in to pitch in situations he deems to be beneath his dignity is well-documented. This is not a Plaschke-esque invention of angry, fat, talentless media hacks as some of the more predictably robotic posters here would have it. It's a meme that has trailed Soriano literally since his time in Seattle, to when he was with the Braves, then the Rays, and now the Yankees. Either it's a massive phony confabulation, media malpractice in the worst way, or more likely it's true and Soriano is an immature prick with a lot of talent in his arm but a lot of personal and professional issues that alienate him from his teammates.
Also: skipping out on facing the media after blowing a game is a bush-league move. There's never a good excuse for it, in the eyes of other players, no matter how much ha-ha-the-media-are-jackals excusemongering Primates want to snarkily toss around in this thread. It's part of his ####### job, and he's not doing it because, again, he's known to be a bit of a jerk.
no, not all--only about 95%
?? If the concern was that he would pop-off or make things more troubling in a post-game interview, isn't avoiding the interview wise?
If he is a hot-head, giving a "no comment" is not more evidence of it.
I hate how newspapers expect more frequent access from baseball players for whom English is the second language than they expect from elected officials. I've hated it since the Boston media always tried to make "Pedro Martinez is/isn't talking to the media" an important issue. A player not giving an interview is simply not newsworthy.
You can't have it both ways: walk away from the media and care what they think/write/report. If Soriano thinks his media portrayal is unfair, he has to stick around last night and talk to them.
Do we have any reason to think that Soriano thinks his portrayal is unfair?
I hate how newspapers expect more frequent access from baseball players for whom English is the second language than they expect from elected officials. I've hated it since the Boston media always tried to make "Pedro Martinez is/isn't talking to the media" an important issue. A player not giving an interview is simply not newsworthy.
Thank you. Does anyone honestly give a flying #### about what a pitcher who's just blown a game says in broken English to some moron with a microphone? Soriano's performance in the 8th inning spoke far more eloquently than anything else that could possibly have been added to the conversation.
I've had Extra Innings for 10 years worth of YES, and I'm still waiting for the first coherent post-game interview. After watching Teixeira, Jeter or Rivera filibuster in jockbabble for 60 seconds with one eye on the dugout, I gotta think that Soriano has the right idea.
I'm sorry, but I don't see the logic here. Sherman decided before Soriano even joined the team that he wouldn't fit, and has gone around trying to find evidence to justify his beef without trying to find countervailing evidence, is what it sounds like. That's the very definition of a hatchet job.
I come from a media family, and I think I tend to be more sympathetic to reporters and columnists of all stripes than most people around here, but this is sour grapes bullshit. A player's job is to play baseball and help his team win, full stop. Anything the media can wring out of him is gravy. Does this make me think Soriano is a totally sweet dude? No, not really. But this kind of entitled farting about reflects just as poorly on the reporter as the player, if you ask me. Suck it up and ask relevant questions to other players. If it's absolutely necessary that you buttonhole someone who played like crap, bust Boone Logan's balls or something. Jesus.
I don't know about Tampa Bay, but I recall nothing of the sort during his tenure in Atlanta, and Sherman offers nothing to support this assertion. He was dang good, and I was sorry to see him go. And in fact he was the "closer" only one year of the three, and did just fine as a setup man.
Indeed.
Fact: Rafael Soriano has pitched better in low-leverage situations than he has in medium and high leverage situations over the course of his career.
I think the accusation is that it's intellectually lazy. After all, once you get a quote from the player, the rest of the article could usually be written by a good piece of software.
Nevertheless, there's a defense to being intellectually lazy during a 162 game season, because trying to be creative every day over that span can only lead to misery. Where I have a problem is not getting a little ticked at a player making your job harder, that's understandable. My problem is when you ##### about it in the paper the next day instead of letting it go and doing your best with what you got. The player may have caused you a problem, but it's your problem not the rest of the world's.
Sure, but try to tell that to Sherman.
What? It's intellectually lazy to talk to a player for a game story, because the rest of the story writes itself? That makes no sense at all.
There were whispers and asides about his personality, his lack of emotion or warmth and his lack of friends on the team. But all of that didn't seep above the rumormill phase in Bobby Cox's clubhouse. From his entire career arc I would suspect - completely devoid of factual evidence, mind you - that Soriano has some combination of Bob Gibson's personality, Barry Bonds' ability to relate to other players or the media, maybe a little of the Zack Greinke/Joey Votto-esque anxiety thing happening, and a strong language barrier to boot.
None of which justifies his behavior, nor rationalizes Sherman's on-going character assassination trope. I do think there are long standing, on-going issues with Soriano and his personality. He has been reported to dislike non-save usage scenarios in all three previous stops, including Atlanta. And Sherman is playing that angle for all it's worth now that Soriano is in "media mad New York." Of course, it's not surprising that a player like Soriano might chafe in the media spotlight of the City, but at the end of the day that's the world's most obvious self-fullfilling prophecy. If Yankee beat reporters wanted to cut back on the amount of stress non-media savvy players endured in the Bronx they could reel in their over the top "this is New York, and the media is king, and you will do our bidding or suffer our wrath!" bit. Sherman clearly doesn't want that. He's getting too much good copy from milking his Soriano-isn't-cut-out-for-New-York angle, which obviously sells to his readership relatively well.
What intellectual advancement of the story or argument is generated by a player quote? Please weight that for the likelihood that the player "quote" is going to be some canned, pre-fabricated nothingness mumbled in rote fashion.
This is it. It would be impossible to write something brand new every single day about every single game over the course of six months. But it's a really classless move to write this kind of article about it. And this kind of article is really common.
No, that the typical beat writer story is basically a paint by numbers sort of thing, with the player interview being the bow that wraps it up (excuse my mixed metaphor). When they don't get that interview, it messes the whole thing up.
And yeah the same game report story we've all seen a gazillion times is indeed intellectually lazy, pretty much by definition. But like I said, it's defensible because of the ridiculous volume of articles these guys have to write. It's impossible to not fall back on formula quite often when you're writing for every game over a 162 game season.
Then change the formula.
That said, I think Girardi played it more or less exactly right (though he maybe should have brought in Rivera when the bases got loaded).
It makes the story much more readable and lively.
I mean, God knows, all of us here are much too sophisticated and enlightened to care about such things, and we'd rather see a real-time update of every player's VORP, but some people like their ballplayers all humanlike.
Of course it does, which is the whole point because otherwise the article could be computer generated. And that was simply my point: that the player quote at the end of what happened game report is boilerplate and therefore fits the definition of intellectually lazy. It's defensible laziness, just like not sprinting out of the blocks in a distance race is a defensible lack of effort.
Unless you're the editor, that's not your call.
It is a flashy (apocryphal?) answer that can help make a career for a writer - but how many times is the player asked that question in his career? How many times can he give a meaningful answer? Deep down I think each writer isn't looking to bury a player so much as hoping he can get something fresh and original. Clubhouse reporting must be like panhandling for gold.
Nothing humanizes a ballplayer like the rote mumbling of cliches while looking both bored and uneasy. And nothing livens up a story like a quote about "needing to execute better" or "just happy to contribute towards getting a win".
From Sherman's recent article about Jeter still hitting at the top of the Yankees order (April 05, NY Post):
"I am paid to make tough decisions and I recognize that would be a tough decision because we are talking about an icon," Girardi said before the Yankees' 4-3 victory over the Twins last night. "But I don't think it is ever wrong to do what is right for the team. And I don't think it is right for the team to move [Jeter out of the top of the lineup]. When it is the right time -- if it ever is the right time -- we'll know."
And...
"I'm not ready to jump ship or go crazy," said hitting coach Kevin Long, who has worked to alter Jeter's swing. "I think it would be wrong to go game by game, day by day, analyzing this. I think he's doing fine and we'll get there."
And...
"I don't consider 15 at-bats a start," said Jeter, who is 2-for-14. "I have to get a few more games under my belt to consider it a start."
Canned, trite, cliched pablum. It does not make the story more readable or lively. It makes the story trite and cliched, but it fills column inches, which is all it's designed to do. You might as well just have Kevin Costner on speed dial to recite the officially sanctioned responses from Bull Durham.
Get a better editor.
Choose a better profession.
As I said, Sam, you're far too sophisticated to care about what any dumb ballplayer says. What's more important to the newspaper, though, is whether the millions of Atlantans who don't measure up to your intellectual capabilities like those kinds of quotes.
All of this is true. None of it countermands anything I've said in this thread.
Yes, it'd be a shame to mess up the winning formula that's taken newspapers to such dizzying heights of recent success.
Hitler didn't like talking to Joel Sherman either.
Yes, it's the sports section that's behind newspaper's economic issues. What they need to do is target the 4 percent of the sports audience that wants to know a guys value over replacement level and the win probability at various points of the game. That would be a formula that would take daily newspapers right back up to the top.
As a former sportswriter, I looked at the player/coach quotes as largely a necessary evil. I figured if I couldn't say it better than the coach or player I was in the wrong line of work. But I also knew my editor wanted them, the readers wanted to see them, and occasionally, you'd find an athlete/coach who had something to say that would aid your story (or future stories).
Then again, I never had to work a major league baseball beat, which has got to be an entirely different beast.
Rangers were in Oakland and led 3-1 into the eighth. Francisco Cordero gives up a run in the eighth. Ugueth Urbina gives up a run in the ninth. R.A. Dickey gives up a run in the 11th.
Rangers lose 4-3. After the game, we go down into the clubhouse. Talk to Cordero and talk to Dickey. They say whatever they said about giving up their run. Take full blame, no excuses. The next excuse R.A. Dickey ever makes will be his first. He is the real deal as a person.
Urbina refused to talk. He almost never talked to reporters. Didn't make my job better or worse, harder or easier. Probably had the same story with a Showalter quote about Urbina rather than Ug-Boy talking for himself.
Tell me if I'm wrong though. Doesn't that make Urbina sound like, "It's not my fault...I'm not taking the blame...blame somebody else."
I tell young players that story often. John Wetteland called it being "accountable." Michael Young same way.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/OAK/OAK200306180.shtml
You're right that it is canned, trite, cliched pablum but it is also true canned, trite, cliched pablum. This is exactly what I want from the guys on my team when they are going poorly. If Girardi is saying after 14 at bats "holy crap, Jeter is toast, I'm booting him to the curb, someone get me Eduardo Nunez!!" I'm a lot more concerned. Sports radio is usually the exact opposite of this stuff and I find that a LOT less interesting than this. At least this is an insight into how the manager runs his tream.
Seconded. At different times, Soriano was the closer in Atlanta, he shared closer duties with Gonzalez, and he served as Gonzalez' setup man. He pitched hurt, he pitched on consecutive days (including one memorable game with the Dodgers when he pitched on his fourth straight day, had absolutely nothing, yet still got the save thanks to one at 'em ball after another), he was tremendous. Perhaps not the warmest guy, which matters way too much in a Chipper Jones clubhouse, but I'd take Soriano back in a heartbeat.
Listening to beat-writers talk, I don't really think this is it. Going down to talk to the players and get a quote, and then file the article takes more time and is more work than just filling a game story with a description of the game play. I'm guessing the lazy ones would be more than happy to not talk to players at all.
Getting quotes from players is presumably an order from the editor, because they think the customers want them.
Some enterprising player - maybe Brian Wilson without the hipster baggage - should set up a web cam in his locker and answer every question in sarcastic deadpan. Have a bad day as a reliever? "Well, you know, I really didn't want to be out there at all. Had 'Dancing With The Stars' TIVO'd and wanted to see Kirstie Alley fall 'live,' ya know? But Skip wanted me out there, so I had to go. Figured the best way to get out fast was to groove a couple of BP fastballs. So that's what I did, but that guy didn't get any lift on the ball, so it was just a 2-run double. Was hopin' he'd jack that out and the game would be over, ya know? But he doubled, friggin' tied it up. Like what I needed was extra ####### innings, man! I still haven't gotten to the TV yet! They say that fall is hilarious."
You'd have to webcam it and post the uncut video to a personal blog, in order to guard against misquoting and failure to get the gag.
Not really. To me, it makes Urbina sound like, "I'd rather not answer questions about how badly I performed."
Not really, no. I think you're just reading that into the situation because that's sort of the assumed "meaning" of not talking after a bad outing. It could just as easily mean "I'm so pissed off at myself that I don't want to be around people, much less talk about how bad I sucked today, and it's not like 40,000 people didn't see it happen live."
You state that Urbina wasn't much of a talker anyway. Why would he become more of a talker when he had a bad day? I think the assumption that people *should* talk after a bad outing is wrong. Not everyone is R. A. Dickey. Some guys deal with their bad days by setting people on fire.
Obviously, the importance of this depends on your market. Tampa Bay players greet the fans at the turnstiles on opening day, thanking them for their patronage. I have the feeling that if every Yankee player stuck their middle finger at the camera after every game and shouted "F*** you, fans!", that would be seen by your average New Yorker as a sign of character, and attendance would go up.
Not every player is equally skilled at being gracious and giving interviews. Although it does burden his other teammates, I am okay if Soriano hides, if he is simply unable to cope with interviews after a tough loss (he just failed miserably in front of 50,000 customers); some guys can handle it and some others can't. It is up to teams to put the player with the requisite skills in the best position for that player to excel, and sticking Soriano in front of a mike after that performance is no different than sticking CC Sabathia in as a pinch-runner at 1B when you are down by 1 in the 9th; it isn't the best use of talents and resources.
Seeing Soriano's difficulties here makes me appreciate Jeff Francoeur even more :)
I don't think you have to work that hard to make Urbina sound like a bad guy. Didn't he try to set some people on fire in South America and then chase them with a machete?
I don't care if my players are machete-wielding lunatics, but they better be quotable, dammit!
Before we make this judgement we must wait until Francoeur actually realizes that he sucks.
I will admit that I'd respect T.J. Simers's schtick a lot more if the guy he was ####### with had a machete.
Clearly I'm not alone here, but it seems to me like you're wrong. Not everybody feels like basking in their failure. It's a non-story.
Look, these guys aren't politicians. Their failure to talk to the press is not really material to their jobs one way or the other. It's not like they're stonewalling because they don't want you to know something. They just don't feel like talking to your ass. I'd probably be the same way. When I perform poorly, I personally have a tendency to become unbearable to be around. I know this about myself, and usually withdraw from people for a while, until I've cooled off. Would you prefer that he stay in the clubhouse and give you a profanity-laced dressing down when you prod him with questions about his failure?
Doesn't sound like that to me. Sounds only like "no comment."
Sincere question: If a player who hits a GW homerun avoids the media after the game, is he seen as sounding like "I'm not taking the credit ... credit someone else?"
On the other hand, if Urbina had tried to set the reporters on fire instead of sulking there would have been a more exciting post-game story for the paper.
Then perhaps the Yankees should have listened to their GM and not signed Soriano. Soriano was offered $10 million per year. He took it. Can't say as I blame him for that.
I laughed.
Loudly in my office.
Actually it sounds alike lot this:
" "
You could just as easily speculate altruistic motives based on what he didn't say as you could negative ones. Now in the case of Urbina and what we subsequently know, he probably was just busy buying gas and sharpening his machete.
In any event, my real objection is that reporters take such great offense to such things. Maybe the guy ought to talk to the press, but the reporter's hurt feelings aren't the reason why.
After a player hits a GW homerun, almost all you'll ever hear is them not taking the credit: "my teammates got on base and I got a pitch to hit" ... "I just put the bat on the ball and the guys in front of me did a great job taking pitches and getting in position for us to win the game," etc.
But you're still going to sit there and give the interview.
It's what's expected of you today as a professional baseball player. Your role goes beyond the field, and many franchises fully expect their players to do off-field stuff like interviews, appearances, charity work, etc. It's part of what they get paid to do. Just like part of what they get paid to do is get yelled at by drunken jerks in the stands, and be civil when everyone stares at them when they take their families out for dinner, or when people ask for their autographs when they're getting milk at the grocery store on Sunday morning.
Most teams expect their players to help maintain the team brand. Don't say anything crazy, don't rock the boat. Some teams can get away with being PG-13 -- like the Giants -- because the local market can handle it. In NY you can be a fun, drunken lout like David Wells, but don't snub the media after a game like Randy Johnson or Rafael Soriano.
Heck -- I'm just some dude on a message board, and I know most of these "unwritten rules." The players definitely know this stuff, and if they're not falling in line with their team's expectations, then they're not doing their job.
But doesn't happen to be true. For his career he's pitched consistently well in non-save situations and in low leverage situations.
In Tampa Bay he simply wasn't used much in non-save situations. When he was (57 PAs), well .173/.228/.269 with a K/BB ration better than his overall numbers is none too shabby. He gave up all of 3 runs (and 9 hits) in non-save situations so there couldn't have been too many bad outings.
In Atlanta he was at his least effective in high leverage situations. .227/.291/.375 in save situations, .166/.247/.269 in non-save situations and .244/.301/.431 in high leverage situations.
Again in 2008 (not that he pitched much) he was at his very best in low leverage situations.
2007: Well I can sort of see it. He was utterly amazing in save situations (.120/.162/.250 -- 105 PAs). But you know I can live with a guy who can count .220/.275/.421 as struggling. .186/.233/.363 with a 5.2/1 K/BB ratio in low leverage (presumably beneath his dignity) situations.
2006: Again I can sort of see it. .139/.213/.278 in high leverage situations, .213/.300/.313 in low leverage situations.
Nothing to note in 2004 or 2005
2003: Pitched better in non-save situations. (.145/.219/.214) Not that he was lousy in his limited time in save situations (.225/.244/.325 in 41 PAs)
The pitching poorly part is simply selective memory. Petulance? Can't speak to that WRT Soriano, but I'm an Oriole fan going back to the late 60s. Didn't care for Jim Palmer's petulance but was glad to have him on the team.
EDIT: No cokes awarded. Extra details provided.
Not really, as there would be no one to report it. At least not by deadline.
Only if his RSOF/RP is 1.0
And that's a lot to ask from a first attempt.
Look, he blew the game. Report that. He didn't give a presser and say "I'm sorry" - report that too. Stringing together a bunch of innuendo, unsupported assertions, statements of dubious factual accuracy, and loaded adjectives to imply this was some moral failing is not reporting, it's score-settling. Sherman is being either a dick or a troll, and to say so is hardly being "anti-reporter" (unless you happen to be one, in which case apparently anything you don't like qualifies).
The description for that job (whether political columnist, media columnist or sports columnist) is "stir up sht". I sincerely doubt the word "insightful" or "respectful" or "logical" or "literate" appears anywhere on the same page.
He was following form in his earlier articles about Soriano. He was following form in this article. He will keep following form.
Is any of that a surprise?
Yes, dealing with the media is part of the job. But, giving no comment after a loss is a way of dealing with the media. And it is a far better at the PR side, and building team image etc, than some angry outburst (although not as good for those purposes, admittedly, as giving a calm and non-controversial interview.) There are many players who have been burned by their own comments, so it can be a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation - especially a guy who has English as a second language.
As for the team's expectations, do we really know them in this case? Its entirely plausible that the Yankees don't want him to talk when riled up and risk making controversial remarks, given his temperment.
New York already had a closer when Soriano signed with them? Who knew?
PeterBotte
Sori just said sorry for blowing off media after blowing up on mound Tues. Said Boras told him "Whatever happens, I have to talk to u guys"
P.S. I just realized that this memory is ideal for this forum.
The joy of covering Mets/Yankees games in the 1990s was that you needed to be in the clubhouse by 3:30 or so for say a 7:30 game. It was hard to say who hated it more, the players or the writers. It wasn't until 5:15 or so that the manager would do his pre-game, and some players weren't even THERE yet at 3:30.
How did this happen? I was told that one writer with a lot of clout insisted that the clubhouse be open so early (for a 7:30 p.m. NBA game, btw, the media access is/was 6 pm til 6:45 pm, and the players would barely arrive before 6 p.m.).
And in the competitive NY media, if one writer was going to be there, so were the other writers. All 7 to 10 of them, or more if it's a big game.
Anyway, who was this powerful writer?
BBTF favorite and angry blogger Murray Chass, then with the NY Times.
You can't make it up...
well, most of them walk around carrying bats.
Ah, but will he do interviews on top of Kilimanjaro?
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