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Thursday, September 16, 2021

Shohei Ohtani has sore arm, might not pitch again this season

Two-way star Shohei Ohtani won’t pitch Friday for the Los Angeles Angels because of a sore right arm that could sideline him as a pitcher for the rest of the season.

“If there’s any kind of lingering soreness, you may not see him pitch,” Angels manager Joe Maddon said before Thursday’s game against the Chicago White Sox.

Ohtani (9-2, 3.36 ERA) felt soreness while playing catch Wednesday. Maddon said he raised the possibility of the likely American League MVP being shut down on the mound for the rest of the season during a meeting.

Hombre Brotani Posted: September 16, 2021 at 06:59 PM | 39 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: angels, shohei ohtani, well, this just fucking sucks

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   1. Hombre Brotani Posted: September 16, 2021 at 07:31 PM (#6040026)
This leaves Alex Cobb, who returned today after being out since the last week of July, as the only surviving member of the 6-man rotation the Angels opened their season with. Fletcher, Ohtani, and Stassi are the only hitters from Opening Day to have survived the season thus far. As rough as season as it's been, it's kind of a miracle the Angels didn't lose 110 games.
   2. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: September 16, 2021 at 08:34 PM (#6040030)
As rough as season as it's been, it's kind of a miracle the Angels didn't lose 110 games.

Having the Rangers in the same division is a nice security blanket to keep any other teams off a 110-loss pace.
   3. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: September 17, 2021 at 08:18 AM (#6040051)
I'm trying to imagine being an Angels fan. You've had the greatest baseball player on your team for years, and don't go anywhere as a franchise. Then, you sign one of the best, most interesting, unique players in years in Ohtani, and you still don't go anywhere as a franchise.

The team was 28-32, and is currently 72-74. In those intervening 86 games, they have never fallen more than four games below .500 - but have also never been more than one game above .500 except for one day in early August. They just hover, all the time, a few games from .500, never really getting too hot or too cold, never really being in the playoff hunt, but always being a two-week hot streak away from being in the WC conversation...but the hot streak never happens.

Has there been a time in baseball (I'm sure there has, I'm just not thinking of it right now) where a team has two players as transcendent and important as Trout and Ohtani, but was nonetheless just completely irrelevant and boring for years like this?

I mean, the late 70s-early 80s Expos had several Hall of Famers (Dawson, Raines, Carter) and several high-end complimentary players (Rogers, Gullickson, Wallach, etc.) but never won anything. However, they almost got to the World Series, and were very relevant - 40 years later, people still talk about those teams as exciting, interesting, and consequential to baseball history. The Angels of the Trout/Ohtani Era seem uniquely...irrelevant to both baseball history and to contemporary coverage of the sport - depsite having the best player in the game, and the most interesting superstar in the game.
   4. Lassus Posted: September 17, 2021 at 08:30 AM (#6040053)
Re: #3

Yes. It is weird and sad.
   5. Ron J Posted: September 17, 2021 at 09:08 AM (#6040056)
#3 Bill James noted that the Expos had a habit of assuming their front line talent was so good that they didn't have to take much care in filling out the rest of the roster. Or to put it another way, Hal Lanier played a key role in the Giants not winning several pennants in the 60s. Doug Flynn had that job for the Expos.
   6. Rally Posted: September 17, 2021 at 09:42 AM (#6040058)
Angels were 35-28, about a 90 win pace, on June 6, 2018. That date is relevant because it’s the last time that year they had both Ohtani the 2 way player and Trout. Ohtani did pitch one more game in early September, but only lasted 2 innings. This year Ohtani made 5 starts before Trout’s injury. In 3 of those he walked more batter than innings, and only once did he go more than 5 innings.

For the most part they just haven’t had those two on the field and in their most valuable roles at the same time.
   7. DL from MN Posted: September 17, 2021 at 09:44 AM (#6040059)
Ted Williams finished 3rd or 4th a lot. The Cubs never did anything with Ernie Banks, Ron Santo and Billy Williams.
   8. The Duke Posted: September 17, 2021 at 10:59 AM (#6040075)
You can either have two great players or a winning team - which do you choose ?

I’m all for winning
   9. bunyon Posted: September 17, 2021 at 11:25 AM (#6040081)
Yeah, in MLB, I'd rather a line up full of very good players than 2 or 3 all time greats and 6 or 7 placeholders. It ain't the NBA.

If you could guarantee your all time great would get 12 PA per game or start every other game on the mound, sure, fine, go with the greats. But that isn't how it works.


I'm sure more learned sabr folks than me have looked at it but I would guess this lineup (numbers are seasonal WAR): 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3 would demolish 1, 2, 8, 10, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1 (Pretty sure that comes to 27 for each) over the course of a season.
   10. Nasty Nate Posted: September 17, 2021 at 11:35 AM (#6040087)
Has there been a time in baseball (I'm sure there has, I'm just not thinking of it right now) where a team has two players as transcendent and important as Trout and Ohtani, but was nonetheless just completely irrelevant and boring for years like this?
That's a really interesting question. I will point out that they only had 2-way Ohtani for 2 of the 4 years.
   11. Rally Posted: September 17, 2021 at 11:40 AM (#6040090)
And only part of those years. His career inning total is only 168.
   12. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 17, 2021 at 11:43 AM (#6040093)
Has there been a time in baseball (I'm sure there has, I'm just not thinking of it right now) where a team has two players as transcendent and important as Trout and Ohtani, but was nonetheless just completely irrelevant and boring for years like this?
And let’s not forget Anthony Rendon, who averaged 5.7 WAR in his last 4 seasons in Washington before being plagued by injuries in his 2nd season as an Angel. There’s enough bad luck there to support a pretty good ‘cursed franchise’ theme.
   13. Nasty Nate Posted: September 17, 2021 at 11:54 AM (#6040096)
Has there been a time in baseball (I'm sure there has, I'm just not thinking of it right now) where a team has two players as transcendent and important as Trout and Ohtani, but was nonetheless just completely irrelevant and boring for years like this?
I'm tempted to say the Rickey-Winfield late-80's Yankees. But they were only mostly irrelevant, as they were actually good squads. And I doubt they were boring.
   14. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: September 17, 2021 at 12:03 PM (#6040099)
Life is meaningless and full of pain.

That's what it's like to be an Angels fan right now. Don't forget, the ONE YEAR the Angels were good while Mike Trout's been around, they were really good (99 wins) and then didn't win a game against the Royals in the ALDS. It's been one long slog through mediocrity since then. And since ownership is the problem, it's not going to get better any time soon.
   15. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili (TeddyF.Ballgame) Posted: September 17, 2021 at 12:32 PM (#6040109)
Has there been a time in baseball (I'm sure there has, I'm just not thinking of it right now) where a team has two players as transcendent and important as Trout and Ohtani, but was nonetheless just completely irrelevant and boring for years like this?


The '90s Mariners had prime Alex Rodriguez, Ken Griffey, Jr., and Randy Johnson, not to mention Edgar Martinez. To be fair, they did make the playoffs a couple times at the tail end of the decade.
   16. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: September 17, 2021 at 01:21 PM (#6040116)
The '90s Mariners had prime Alex Rodriguez, Ken Griffey, Jr., and Randy Johnson, not to mention Edgar Martinez. To be fair, they did make the playoffs a couple times at the tail end of the decade.


It still boggles the mind to think about the fact that they had their best year (and arguably the best season in MLB history) after those guys had left over the past two and a half seasons (Unit in the middle of '98, Griffey after '99, A-Rod after '00). And then they win 116 games in 2001. Crazy.

But that team did have some success with those guys. Not as much as they probably should have, but they made the playoffs twice with all of them (and won a series), and another time before A-Rod left. That's way more than the Angels can say with Trout.
   17. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 17, 2021 at 02:00 PM (#6040122)
And since ownership is the problem, it's not going to get better any time soon.
People keep saying this, but the Angels have been in the top 10 in payroll for every season of Trout's career. Moreno has certainly been willing to spend. It's just that the spending has often been misguided (Pujols, Vernon Wells, Josh Hamilton, CJ Wilson...the list goes on and on - hell, anyone remember that they paid Scott Kazmir $28.5 million for zero WAR 2009-11?).

Are you saying that Moreno was the driving force behind those contracts and thus the problem?
   18. Dr. Pooks Posted: September 17, 2021 at 02:11 PM (#6040123)
Has there been a time in baseball (I'm sure there has, I'm just not thinking of it right now) where a team has two players as transcendent and important as Trout and Ohtani, but was nonetheless just completely irrelevant and boring for years like this?


#15's example of the 90s Mariners is probably a better example, but the 1994-2014 Blue Jays come to mind.

The Jays essentially played 20 years of .500 ball, doomed to always finish behind the Yankees and the Red Sox, sometimes the Orioles and much later the Rays despite sporting rosters with Roger Clemens, Shawn Green, Carlos Delgado, Roy Halladay, Chris Carpenter, Jose Bautista, Edwin Encarnacion, Troy Glaus, Scott Rolen, prime Vernon Wells, Alex Rios, AJ Burnett, BJ Ryan, etc.
   19. Ron J Posted: September 17, 2021 at 02:24 PM (#6040128)
#17 People who know the market better than me can give more detail, but yeah Moreno has been pretty active and it's easy to find cases where his involvement has not been positive.

I'm skeptical of just so stories so I wouldn't want to push an "all bad decisions are on Moreno" narrative. But the Pujols contract is somewhere around 105% Moreno.
   20. bunyon Posted: September 17, 2021 at 02:43 PM (#6040131)
My (very distanced) sense is that Moreno is not engaged that much day to day but swoops in for the big splash signings. And sets a tone that "stars" are the way to go. So, whether intentionally or not, he hires folks that sign big names but don't build a team.

But this is a snakebit season. A full season of Trout, Ohtani and Rendon wouldn't make them the best team in the game but they could very easily be on the fringes of the wild card race. (low bar)
   21. The Honorable Ardo Posted: September 17, 2021 at 02:48 PM (#6040132)
The post-Scioscia Angels have been 12th, 13th, and 12th again in ERA among AL teams. They seem like the anti-Rays: any pitchers they touch turn to soot.
   22. Rally Posted: September 17, 2021 at 04:11 PM (#6040142)
If the Angels sign some formerly decent pitcher for about a year and 10 million, DO NOT touch in your fantasy draft. An ERA over 7 is all but guaranteed.

They have had some limited success trading for Oriole reclamation projects (Bundy, Cobb), but it only lasts for a year.
   23. cardsfanboy Posted: September 17, 2021 at 06:25 PM (#6040174)
And let’s not forget Anthony Rendon, who averaged 5.7 WAR in his last 4 seasons in Washington before being plagued by injuries in his 2nd season as an Angel. There’s enough bad luck there to support a pretty good ‘cursed franchise’ theme.


Funny thing, in the weekday game chatter we are discussing w/l record over swaths of time, and one point brought up... since 2000... it goes 1. Yankees 2. Cardinals/Dodgers, 3 Red Sox 4 Braves 5 A's 6th. Angels ahead of the Giants. The Angels just don't know how to win in a dominating fashion, they compete year to year, just don't really win.
   24. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: September 17, 2021 at 06:53 PM (#6040176)
People keep saying this, but the Angels have been in the top 10 in payroll for every season of Trout's career. Moreno has certainly been willing to spend. It's just that the spending has often been misguided (Pujols, Vernon Wells, Josh Hamilton, CJ Wilson...the list goes on and on - hell, anyone remember that they paid Scott Kazmir $28.5 million for zero WAR 2009-11?).

Are you saying that Moreno was the driving force behind those contracts and thus the problem?


Moreno has been a couple of things that have been harmful to the team. First, he's meddlesome well beyond where an owner should be. As others have noted, he's gotten involved in the big free agent deals and forced them, sometimes going above his GM's head to get it done. Early on, some of these worked out (Guerrero, Colon), but he's missed pretty badly on more recent ones. He's also meddled in the other way, forcing people to act on his timing and nixing deals when he feels like the other side isn't respecting him. Adrian Beltre gave an interview last year where he said he wanted to play for the Angels coming off of his year in Boston, but Moreno gave him an ultimatum and pulled the deal when Beltre didn't respond quickly enough. The Angels had a deal in place in early 2020 to get Joc Pederson and Ross Stripling from the Dodgers, but when the Dodgers and Red Sox had to take some some extra time while they worked out the Mookie Betts trade, Moreno got petulant about it and squashed the deal. Moreno has seemingly avoided having an experienced, strong voice in a GM role, preferring to give up-and-comers their first job. I'm not opposed to that if it's done for the right reasons, but I worry it's been done so he can have more control over baseball decisions (and he's said as much in interviews - it's his money and he wants a say).

The more damaging aspect of Moreno's ownership, in my opinion, has been his penny-wise, pound-foolish mentality. He'll pay a ton for a big name, and he'll spend to bring in veterans. But he runs an incredibly lean front and back office so that the Angels have not had a strong player development or scouting department for years. As a fan, it's nice to know he'll shell out bucks for talent. But in order to be successful, it seems pretty important to be able to supplement talent from the minor leagues. Outside of David Fletcher, the Angels haven't had an above average homegrown position player since they brought Trout up. And pitching is almost as bad. It seems Moreno wants the flashy names to put on billboards (which is where he made his money), but doesn't want to spend on support staff who can help get the most out of the minor league organization talent. Nothing I've seen has indicated he's changed his stance on that, but maybe Minasian has convinced him that he needs to spend more there.
   25. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: September 17, 2021 at 07:00 PM (#6040177)
Funny thing, in the weekday game chatter we are discussing w/l record over swaths of time, and one point brought up... since 2000... it goes 1. Yankees 2. Cardinals/Dodgers, 3 Red Sox 4 Braves 5 A's 6th. Angels ahead of the Giants. The Angels just don't know how to win in a dominating fashion, they compete year to year, just don't really win.


Most of that comes from the aughts when they won the division five times, the Wild Card another year, and were competitive the other years. In the teens, they've basically been a .500 team other than one really good year and one pretty bad year. But throughout the aughts, they were fairly dominant. They won a Series and made two other ALCSs. They had a Red Sox problem for a while that kept them from more postseason success, but they were legitimately one of the top two or three AL teams throughout the aughts (behind the Red Sox and right there alongside the Yankees).

It's only been in the teens that they've been thoroughly mediocre. One really good season, one pretty bad season, and then a bunch of win totals in the high 70's and low 80's.
   26. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 17, 2021 at 07:19 PM (#6040183)
Well said, JAHV - thanks for the elaboration in 24. I couldn't agree more with the idea that it's about more than just spending money. A lot of people in our corner of the baseball discussion world have somehow gotten to the point where they think spending big $ on free agents is inherently a good thing in and of itself.
   27. John Northey Posted: September 19, 2021 at 12:10 PM (#6040399)
The starts and scrubs method can work, but you need a smart GM who can find good scrubs. For example, the Jays re-signed Robbie Ray as a free agent for $8 mil last winter - Cy Young contender now, Reese McGuire they removed form the 40 man (free to anyone else via waivers) for a time, then called him back up and he has an 86 OPS+ now which is solid for a strong defensive catcher. Marcus Semien was an MVP candidate in 2019, flopped in 2020, Jays risked $18 mil on him (not exactly scrub cash, but not a killer especially on a 1 year deal) and he has 6.7 bWAR so far this year (#1 on the Jays who have Vlad & Ray just behind him). Breyvic Valera was found on waivers and has a 98 OPS+ at 3B with decent defense, Jake Lamb was also a waiver wire gain - 88 OPS+ as a backup. LAA have their stars (Ohtani, Trout, Rendon) but have 2 regulars with OPS+ sub 85. A guy with 19 starts and an ERA over 6.

It isn't easy, but stars lock in positions, scrubs fill in holes, but you need to sign the right scrubs. You need to build up a strong AAA team that minor free agents would be happy to play for so you have decent backups. By WAA the Angels are dead last in the majors at SS/LF, Bottom 10 for RF/3B/1B/2B/C, #15/15 for SP/RF, CF is 18th and dropping with Trout out, but DH is #1 by a mile. For comparison the Jays, an ugly team in 2018/19, is top 5 at 1B/2B/SS/LF/DH. Top half for SP/RF/C/RF. 20th at 3B (a rotating nightmare all year - when someone gets going they get hurt), 22nd in CF (where they blew a fortune on George Springer who has been hurt or DHing mostly this year).

In 2019 the Angels were 5 games ahead of the Jays and I suspect most figured they were in a really good position then with Ohtani, Trout, and others, then signed Rendon as a free agent. Development and good use of the waiver wire (saved the Jays bacon mid-season when the pen was a disaster and kept 3B from falling into the pits of hell when it became cursed) made the difference. LAA need desperately to sign a strong GM and give that GM free reign to do as needed.
   28. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: September 19, 2021 at 02:15 PM (#6040409)
A lot of people in our corner of the baseball discussion world have somehow gotten to the point where they think spending big $ on free agents is inherently a good thing in and of itself.


This is very peculiar, given that we spent something like 15 years arguing that teams should mostly forego signing FAs since most FA production can be reproduced on the cheap by pre-arb guys. (Something that teams have finally figured out and people around here now complain about.)
   29. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: September 19, 2021 at 05:49 PM (#6040430)
"Might not pitch for the rest of the year" lasted 2 days.
   30. Hombre Brotani Posted: September 19, 2021 at 06:26 PM (#6040435)
For his "might not pitch, but totally did" start, Ohtani goes 8 IP, 5 hits, 2 runs (2 homers), and 10 Ks. A fine start, backed by an offense that's put up zero runs on 1 hit.
   31. . Posted: September 19, 2021 at 06:38 PM (#6040437)
This is very peculiar, given that we spent something like 15 years arguing that teams should mostly forego signing FAs since most FA production can be reproduced on the cheap by pre-arb guys. (Something that teams have finally figured out and people around here now complain about.)


That's because, as was noted and explained long ago, those arguments all come from a place that ultimately has nothing to do with baseball. The "you don't need to sign free agents to compete" did; it's essential polar opposite -- "owners aren't spending enough money on free agents" -- also does. Once you understand that, the 180 degree whipsaw makes way more sense. Without it, it makes no sense.

This is really the big picture story of sabermetrics -- the vast majority of it was and is arguments and philosophies to which the protagonists subscribed that had ultimate sources far outside baseball. Baseball just happened to be their vehicle and happened to be in the way.
   32. Hombre Brotani Posted: September 19, 2021 at 07:01 PM (#6040439)
In 2019 the Angels were 5 games ahead of the Jays and I suspect most figured they were in a really good position then with Ohtani, Trout, and others, then signed Rendon as a free agent. Development and good use of the waiver wire (saved the Jays bacon mid-season when the pen was a disaster and kept 3B from falling into the pits of hell when it became cursed) made the difference. LAA need desperately to sign a strong GM and give that GM free reign to do as needed.
From the 2010 to today, the Angels have had a grand total of two drafted players accumulate 5 WAR for the organization: Kole Calhoun and David Fletcher. That's it, that's the entire list. It's been a devastating, crippling stretch for the organization -- the few players they've drafted who've been at all productive have been traded away for expensive, declining vets.
   33. Smitty* Posted: September 19, 2021 at 07:07 PM (#6040440)
Anybody good drafted in 2009? :)
   34. Hombre Brotani Posted: September 19, 2021 at 07:26 PM (#6040443)
Anybody good drafted in 2009? :)
That 2009 draft, with Trout, Grichuck, Patrick Corbin, Garrett Richards, and Tyler Skaggs should have set the organization up for a decade. Reagans and Dipoto -- no doubt pressured from above -- fumbled a lot of talent away to try to win now.
   35. Matt Welch Posted: September 20, 2021 at 01:46 PM (#6040527)
The 1955-61 Giants bobbled around .500 despite Mays & 1B production factory (Bill White, Cepeda, McCovey), plus Antonelli still pitching well.

   36. Rally Posted: September 20, 2021 at 02:07 PM (#6040536)
In 2019 the Angels were 5 games ahead of the Jays and I suspect most figured they were in a really good position then with Ohtani, Trout, and others, then signed Rendon as a free agent. Development and good use of the waiver wire (saved the Jays bacon mid-season when the pen was a disaster and kept 3B from falling into the pits of hell when it became cursed) made the difference. LAA need desperately to sign a strong GM and give that GM free reign to do as needed.


Well, they do have a relatively new GM who used to work for the Jays.
   37. Rally Posted: September 20, 2021 at 02:16 PM (#6040537)
That 2009 draft, with Trout, Grichuck, Patrick Corbin, Garrett Richards, and Tyler Skaggs should have set the organization up for a decade. Reagans and Dipoto -- no doubt pressured from above -- fumbled a lot of talent away to try to win now.


That was an incredible draft. But while those pitchers were promising and occasionally brilliant, they wouldn’t have been enough, given the missed time to injuries. Had they kept them all, how many decent years would the Angels have gotten: by this I’ll define as ERA+ > 100 and 150 innings, 55 if the year is 2020.

Corbin 2013, 17-19
Richards: 2014, 2015
Skaggs: never

Would have helped, but their problems run deeper than that.
   38. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: September 20, 2021 at 08:23 PM (#6040607)
The '90s Mariners had prime Alex Rodriguez, Ken Griffey, Jr., and Randy Johnson, not to mention Edgar Martinez.


I'm anything but a Mariners fan, but this is epic.
   39. homerwannabee Posted: September 21, 2021 at 07:44 AM (#6040642)
I'm thinking about the 1988 season with the Baltimore Orioles. Eddie Murray and Cal Ripken were both in their prime. Both players actually played every single game of that miserable season.
A season where the Orioles would end up with a 54-107 record.

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