If the Mets plan on using Murphy at 2B, they should probably just deal him now while his value's high, rather than trying to move him next season, after he has yet another traumatic knee injury...

I don't care if he dies trying to play second base. He's more valuable as a corpse at 2B (and I know corpses at 2B -- we had the remains of Roberto Alomar, remember?) than Tony Gwynn, Jr. If that really was the proposed deal, I'm glad Alderson looked elsewhere. Anywhere.

deleted for repeat of intro

He's more valuable as a corpse at 2B (and I know corpses at 2B -- we had the remains of Roberto Alomar, remember?) than Tony Gwynn, Jr. If that really was the proposed deal, I'm glad Alderson looked elsewhere.

Agreed. With all of the interest in Murphy, though, I doubt that's the lowest offer on the table.

It might be. The other GMs are looking at them like hyenas look at the freshly killed wildebeest. I look at the Met news with trepidation. And get "rewarded" with stories like Alderson trying hard to get Alex Gonzalez, whose age and lousiness seem to fit the "plan" perfectly. How sad.

The other GMs are looking at them like hyenas look at the freshly killed wildebeest.

You mean the way the Mets have looked at 90% of MLB for years?

You mean the way the Mets have looked at 90% of MLB for years?

You know Vlad -- you're being a real ass in these Mets' threads. Not everything that happens to and with the Mets should or must be seen through a comparison to the Pirates or the experience of Pirates' fans. You really don't have to go around and search for every single opportunity to point out that you think your team has suffered worse misery in the last X number of years, implying that Mets' fans deserve to have owners who are broke, involved in a great Ponzi scheme, etc.

We get it. You hate the Mets, you're glad the Wilpons are in the poorhouse, and you hope the team loses 100 games a year from now until infinity. I've heard enough -- you're now on my ignore list.

You know it's really unfair when you consider who Minaya took free agents from. Boston, LAA and Houston were playoff teams. Now Harizin liberating the Pirates from Bonilla was cruel ( to Met fans) they weren't really screwing with small markets like some other, cough cough Yankees, teams were. They were like Robin Hood.

Re #2
The Mets ended up getting a strong defensive outfielder and a solid relief pitcher when they traded Pagan. What if the Dodgers had kicked in a RP? Would Tony Gwynn Jr. + Kenley Jansen been enough for Murphy?

The Mets ended up getting a strong defensive outfielder and a solid relief pitcher when they traded Pagan. What if the Dodgers had kicked in a RP? Would Tony Gwynn Jr. + Kenley Jansen been enough for Murphy?

Well, I think Gwynn < Torres (if, as is apparently true, Torres was hurt last year that explains at least in part his drop-off with the bat), although Gwynn is substantially cheaper. Jansen? I'd make that deal. I'd be shocked if the Dodgers would, though.

Well, I think Gwynn < Torres (if, as is apparently true, Torres was hurt last year that explains at least in part his drop-off with the bat), although Gwynn is substantially cheaper. Jansen? I'd make that deal. I'd be shocked if the Dodgers would, though.

Maybe I'm undervaluing Jansen and overvaluing Torres, but I like the package that they got for Pagan better, and they still have Murphy. I don't know why the team soured so badly on Pagan after how well he played in 2010 and the fact that he was playing hurt in '11. I;m pleased with the return they got on him.

Maybe I'm undervaluing Jansen and overvaluing Torres, but I like the package that they got for Pagan better, and they still have Murphy.

Jansen has only been pitching for a couple of years (converted catcher), and he's capable of doing what he did in the majors last year? If the Dodgers don't want to keep seeing how good he can become, and keep getting it cheap, I'd be more than happy for the Mets to find out. Of course, now that they've filled up the bullpen after Alderson's shopping at the winter meetings, it's a little different, but looked at two weeks ago, you have to say that when they were trying to fill the pen, getting Jansen would have been worth Murphy. Much as I like Murphy, he really isn't ideally suited to their current needs. I'd rather have Justin Turner/Jansen than Murphy/Ramirez. And then (if you want) deal Pagan for something else.

Would Tony Gwynn Jr. + Kenley Jansen been enough for Murphy?

Ummm... ZiPS projects Mr. Jansen to a 165 ERA+. That is not a typo. It projects 98 K* and just 39 hits in 63 IP. Kenley Jansen is enough to get David Wright. Given the way MLB fetishizes closers, give him a season of saves and he might be enough to get almost any player in the league.

Don't get me wrong, I'd never heard of the guy until I saw that ZiPS projection but Holy Haysoos he makes Carlos Marmol look like Dale Murray.

*98 K in 63 IP is a substantial regression from his career 15.3 K/9. In 2011, he had 16.1 K/9.

I'd rather have Justin Turner/Jansen than Murphy/Ramirez. And then (if you want) deal Pagan for something else.

Fair enough, I didn't realize the difference between Jansen and Ramirez was that pronounced.

Other than losing Reyes, which I'm not downplaying, I'm pretty happy with the Mets' offseason so far. They added three arms to the 'pen (of varying quality, but after last year, they just needed arms), and all it cost them was a few dollars and Pagan.

Jansen is a reliever so an ERA+ of 165 is very nice, but certainly not anything worth trading David Wright for.

Last year Grant Balfour had an ERA+ of 165, which ranked 35th among relievers with at least 20 games pitched.

Kenley Jansen has a career 15.6 K/9 rate. Just think about that for a second.

You really don't have to go around and search for every single opportunity to point out that you think your team has suffered worse misery in the last X number of years, implying that Mets' fans deserve to have owners who are broke, involved in a great Ponzi scheme, etc.

Heh, that's cute. Since when has an exhaustive search been required to locate Mets threads on this site?

You hate the Mets, you're glad the Wilpons are in the poorhouse, and you hope the team loses 100 games a year from now until infinity.

No, actually, that's not it at all.

For a long time, Mets fans have been shielded from the inequities of the system, as well as the normal cycle of success and rebuilding that's an integral part of sports fandom. The current downward turn in fortunes is a great time for growth and insight through introspection.

I'm not saying the things I'm saying because I want to kick you guys while you're down. I'm saying it the way an AA sponsor would, because I've been for years in the place where you are now, and I can show you the way: "Hi, my name's Vlad, and I'm a fan of a bad team with no money."

When things get better for you guys (and they will), keep the way you're feeling right now in the back of your mind. Remember what it feels like to be one of the helpless have-nots. The memory of that feeling is what allows you to fully enjoy better seasons on their own terms, even if they don't end in a World Series appearance. You get better at appreciating the day-to-day stuff, like a good start or a diving catch or a rookie who plays hard even if he's never going to be a star.

Even if there are some individual Mets fans here who don't need to be reminded of that, I think that there are a lot of members of the fan base who do.

You know it's really unfair when you consider who Minaya took free agents from. Boston, LAA and Houston were playoff teams. Now Harizin liberating the Pirates from Bonilla was cruel ( to Met fans) they weren't really screwing with small markets like some other, cough cough Yankees, teams were. They were like Robin Hood.

You were posting in this thread because you were upset at the idea of another team viewing the Mets as a parts car to be disassembled at will, even though no deal for Murphy happened, or appears likely to happen in the future. Thus, if you're comparing our teams' situations, the correct analogy would seem to be with New York speculations about prospects-for-veterans trades with the Pirates.

Be honest with yourself. Can you remember speculations about the Mets trading for Brian Giles, or Jason Bay, or Paul Maholm, or Zach Duke, or pretty much any other Pirate who distinguished himself in any way over the last decade-and-change, whether the Pirates had expressed any interest in trading that player or not? Because I sure can.

For a long time, Mets fans have been shielded from the inequities of the system, as well as the normal cycle of success and rebuilding that's an integral part of sports fandom. The current downward turn in fortunes is a great time for growth and insight through introspection.

Seriously? The Mets? A franchise with an overall 3811-4149 record? No offense, but are you really that ignorant of baseball history?

DB

Be honest with yourself. Can you remember speculations about the Mets trading for Brian Giles, or Jason Bay, or Paul Maholm, or Zach Duke, or pretty much any other Pirate who distinguished himself in any way over the last decade-and-change, whether the Pirates had expressed any interest in trading that player or not? Because I sure can.

You do realize that Jason Bay was a Met before he was a Pirate, don't you?

Again, no offense, but these posts read like they were written by someone who just started following baseball a couple of years ago.

DB

Remember what it feels like to be one of the helpless have-nots.

Again, this is the Mets we're talking about. They've been helpless have nots the majority of their existence.

Perhaps you're thinking of that other New York team.

DB

Be honest with yourself. Can you remember speculations about the Mets trading for Brian Giles, or Jason Bay, or Paul Maholm, or Zach Duke, or pretty much any other Pirate who distinguished himself in any way over the last decade-and-change, whether the Pirates had expressed any interest in trading that player or not? Because I sure can.

I'm assuming that Vlad wrote this, since I now have him on ignore -- but I will respond to it anyway, by saying this: SO WHAT??? So, some fans speculate about how the Mets might trade for a Pirate player. Not get him as a free agent, mind you -- but trade for him, in the way baseball teams have been exchanging talent for many decades now -- long before there even was a New York Mets. This is supposed to be evidence that the Mets are bullies and that their fans need to learn some profound lesson in humility through losing?

It is certainly true that the Mets have not suffered the ceaseless parade of losing season that have plagued the Pirates since the end of the Leyland/Bonds/Drabek era. But our team has been just about as poorly run, all things considered, over that space of time, in terms of the success that fans should expect given the resources available to the franchise. We have endured seasons that certainly rival any individual year the Pirates have suffered, and we've been humiliated in some of the worst ways imaginable along the way (the misconduct of Steve Phillips and Tony Bernazard and Vince Coleman; the sordid financial shenanigans of our owners).

Shielded from the normal cycle of success and rebuilding??? The team that went through the early to mid 90s, built back up to the 2000 WS, sucked again in the early to mid 2000s, then build up again to a solid team (though only one post-season appearance)? The Mets are almost the poster child for the success/failure cycle . . . except that we seem to usually not make the most of our times at the top of the roller coaster ride.

No, you've got nothing. You literally have nothing but a bizarre misconception of the Mets and their history. I'm sorry to not be the juggernaut you think we are, but geez, I'm even more sorry we don't have this fabulous history of uninterrupted success to draw on to make it true.

Vlad, I find the majority of sports fans to be insipid whiners, and Mets fans to actually be the worst of the lot. That being said...

The idea that any sports fans - out of certain small pockets - will be introspective is pretty laughable, and my eye-roll at "Remember what it feels like to be one of the helpless have-nots" was severe enough to knock squirrels out of the trees over my house.

Seriously? The Mets? A franchise with an overall 3811-4149 record? No offense, but are you really that ignorant of baseball history?

Yeah, the Mets lost a lot of games in the '60s. How many modern fans actually lived through that, though? The ones who did are the exception, rather than the rule.

You do realize that Jason Bay was a Met before he was a Pirate, don't you?

Mets fans didn't want to trade for Bay because he'd been one of their minor league players for four months. They wanted to trade for him for the same reason they wanted to trade for the other guys I mentioned: He developed into a good player.

Again, this is the Mets we're talking about. They've been helpless have nots the majority of their existence.

And the Pirates lost a lot of games in the '50s, before I was born. To actually know what that was like, though, I'd have to raise my grandfather from the dead and ask him, because there's hardly anybody left who lived it.

The Mets have had some bad individual seasons, but to find their last really extended period of purposess flailing, you have to go back to the late '70s/early '80s, and that's just too long ago to provide useful context for a lot of fans. I mean, I was born in '79, and I went to my first game in '86 - there's a whole generation of fans my age who have no direct personal connection to any of the stuff you're talking about.

The idea that any sports fans - out of certain small pockets - will be introspective is pretty laughable, and my eye-roll at "Remember what it feels like to be one of the helpless have-nots" was severe enough to knock squirrels out of the trees over my house.

That's a shame. Enjoying the little things should be what baseball's all about. If you only live for championships, how much can you really enjoy the sport? Even the Yankees don't win every year.

That's a shame. Enjoying the little things should be what baseball's all about. If you only live for championships, how much can you really enjoy the sport?

I'm not disagreeing with that, and can't imagine you thought I was.

Be honest with yourself. Can you remember speculations about the Mets trading for Brian Giles, or Jason Bay, or Paul Maholm, or Zach Duke, or pretty much any other Pirate who distinguished himself in any way over the last decade-and-change, whether the Pirates had expressed any interest in trading that player or not? Because I sure can.

Do you want Jason Bay back? :)

Do you want Jason Bay back? :)

Hey, with McLouth coming back to Pittsburgh, I guess anything's possible... :)

For a long time, Mets fans have been shielded from the inequities of the system, as well as the normal cycle of success and rebuilding that's an integral part of sports fandom.

For most of the last 20 years, the Mets having money has been a curse rather than a blessing. There were a couple of points where this wasn't true, but the bulk of their failures have coming from spending too much, rather than not spending enough. It's because they had money that we got Mo Vaughn, Kevin Appier, Todd Zeile, Vince Coleman, Robbie Alomar, and Jason Bay. I'm sorry the Pirates are the worst franchise in sports, but let's not pretend it's because of money. The Mets had buckets of it, and actually managed to use it to their disadvantage. Within my lifetime, the Mets have never had a stretch of suckitude like the Pirates have, but that's true of most franchises. You just happen to root for one that's terrible beyond comparison.

The Mets have had some bad individual seasons, but to find their last really extended period of purposess flailing, you have to go back to the late '70s/early '80s, and that's just too long ago to provide useful context for a lot of fans. I mean, I was born in '79, and I went to my first game in '86 - there's a whole generation of fans my age who have no direct personal connection to any of the stuff you're talking about.

In your lifetime, the Pirates have won the same number of World Championships as that juggernaut Mets franchise that you seem to envy so much. In your lifetime, the Pirates had a stretch where they went to the NLCS three consecutive years; while the Mets, in their entire history, have never made the post-season three years in a row. Over the past twenty years (which, I presume you understand, is not the 1960s) the Mets have had more seasons under .500 than above.

Seriously, of all the teams to be jealous of, you picked the Mets?!?

DB

The fact that somebody would be jealous of the Mets is unfathomable to me. Seriously?

What makes you think I'm jealous of the Mets? Seriously, that's a bizarre conclusion to draw...

I feel sorry for Mets fans. In general, they have less sense of perspective about ups and downs than almost anyone else. They never seem to understand how to just be happy that it's a nice day and there's a game on.

I'm assuming that Vlad wrote this, since I now have him on ignore -- but I will respond to it anyway, by saying this: SO WHAT??? So, some fans speculate about how the Mets might trade for a Pirate player. Not get him as a free agent, mind you -- but trade for him, in the way baseball teams have been exchanging talent for many decades now -- long before there even was a New York Mets. This is supposed to be evidence that the Mets are bullies and that their fans need to learn some profound lesson in humility through losing?

It would have made a lot more sense to you, Sam, if you'd read the other half of that post, and the post to which it was replying.

If you want to ignore me, fine, then ignore me. Don't half-ass it by replying to something some third party is quoting. Either you care what I have to say, or you don't.

Me thinks Vlad should reread some of his posts before commenting that others perceptions of his posts are odd

Let me explain it to you
when you whine or complain or simply dump on the Mets and their fans you come off like the myriad that whines and complains about the YANKEES and their fans

Plus some of your comments really do seem to arise from mistaking the two NYC teams for eachother

That or following the Pirates has really warped your sense of what a normal success fail rebuild cycle looks like

Anyway, back to the original article . . . if the Dodgers are really still interested in Murphy, I wonder if they'd part with Tim Federowicz, their young catcher who looks like a nice prospect? I could see pairing him with Thole as part of a young platoon. Federowicz has a solid defensive rep and has shown decent doubles power in the minors -- looks like he's a nice player.

More armchair psychoanalysis
Vlad is upset Because the Mets have been as badly run the past 15 years or so as the Pirates the onfield results have not been as consistently awful because the Mets have a huge revenue advantage which while largely squandered has every now and then bought some wins

I'm sorry the Pirates are the worst franchise in sports

The Bengals and Clippers would like a word. I mean, they can't even use money as an excuse.

Collins was yapping something the other day about the team willing to try Murphy again at second base. It's my fervent hope this increasingly dysfunctional FO trades Murphy to a team that won't obsessively wreck his health, a team looking for a cheap third or first baseman with some upside, and that has a comparable player to offer the Mets at 2B, C, the OF, or a low minors starter with upside. This feels like the Minaya Mets all over again, where the best thing for a young player is to get him the hell off the team, to somewhere he has a chance to carve out a decent career.

It's extraordinary. Ike Davis was seriously injured last season. David Wright was seriously injured last season. Wright may well have real health issues, and might well benefit from regular rest. That suggests the Mets have an above average need for a good corner IF sub, yet the one they have they seem bent on hurting. The position they want Murphy to risk yet a third potentially career ending injury at is currently not well-filled, but it looks for the moment to be adequately filled. Presumably this FO, when it's not drinking to forget, is aware of BABIP and therefore aware that Murphy isn't quite the hitter he seems to be, therefore he's not going to be quite the hitter at 2B--if he survives--he might seem to be. Therefore the upside of putting Murphy at 2B is small, and the downside is once again throwing away a perfectly decent player.

A lot of Murphy's apparent success as a hitter is tied to an unsustainable BABIP, but enough teams still don't seem to pay attention to the stat, and the Mets might pick up a somewhat better player in return than Murphy warrants.

I'm not saying the things I'm saying because I want to kick you guys while you're down. I'm saying it the way an AA sponsor would, because I've been for years in the place where you are now, and I can show you the way: "Hi, my name's Vlad, and I'm a fan of a bad team with no money."

Actually, you're saying it the way an uncomprehending Al-Anon does, one who wonders why the abuse won't stop. "Hi, my name's Vlad, and I'm the wife of a bad husband who beats me. Why does this keep happening to me?"

When I was young and even dumber than today, I used to applaud moves that put defensive square pegs in round holes. Hebner back at 3rd, Jefferies at 2nd, Coleman in CF, etc. But as each one was a bigger disaster than the last, I knew it was a strategy that helped neither the team or the player. That's what Murphy at second base would be. The tiny help you'd get offensively wouldn't offset the defensive destruction and injury certainty. Either you keep him around as a caddy for Wright and Davis and pinch hitter deluxe or you trade him. Outfield and second base will not work.

What makes you think I'm jealous of the Mets? Seriously, that's a bizarre conclusion to draw...

So bizzare that everyone who reads your posts reaches it.

Collins was yapping something the other day about the team willing to try Murphy again at second base. It's my fervent hope this increasingly dysfunctional FO trades Murphy to a team that won't obsessively wreck his health, a team looking for a cheap third or first baseman with some upside, and that has a comparable player to offer the Mets at 2B, C, the OF, or a low minors starter with upside. This feels like the Minaya Mets all over again, where the best thing for a young player is to get him the hell off the team, to somewhere he has a chance to carve out a decent career.

Starting Murphy at 2B was your idea.

So bizzare that everyone who reads your posts reaches it.

Well, if three people on the Internet think it, then it MUST be true.

when you whine or complain or simply dump on the Mets and their fans you come off like the myriad that whines and complains about the YANKEES and their fans

Plus some of your comments really do seem to arise from mistaking the two NYC teams for eachother

Simply having fewer resources and less success than the Yankees is not enough, in and of itself, to make a team into a scrappy, plucky underdog.

I am perfectly happy to concede that the outlook of Mets fans is not, in general, as out-of-balance as that of Yankees fans. That's not a high bar to clear.

This thread looks like a great ride, though I fear I may not be tall enough for it.

Starting Murphy at 2B was your idea.

?