Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, February 08, 2021

Source: St. Louis Cardinals bring Yadier Molina back on 1-year deal

The St. Louis Cardinals are bringing back Yadier Molina for an 18th season, a source told ESPN’s Jesse Rogers, confirming multiple reports.

The Cardinals agreed to a one-year deal with the catcher on Monday, the source said.

Molina is a rarity, having spent his entire career—2,025 games—with the Cardinals. The only two players to play more games in a Cardinals uniform in franchise history are Hall of Famers Stan Musial (3,026) and Lou Brock (2,289).

Molina shared a video of his career highlight on Instagram Monday and ended it with the words “I’m back.”

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 08, 2021 at 09:24 PM | 43 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cardinals, yadier molina

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. John Northey Posted: February 08, 2021 at 09:54 PM (#6004339)
As neat as it was that the Jays were looking at completing their Molina collection, I'm glad he is back in St Louis and that he has a good chance of it being his only home throughout his career. Never a common thing. Something the Jays have never had really - most games for a guy who played his entire career for the Jays is 931 for Garth Iorg (a platoon 3B), then 316 for Devon Travis. Ugh. 946 innings for Luis Leal is the peak for pitchers. If only Dave Stieb didn't have those 4 games for the White Sox in 1993. Sigh.
   2. The Duke Posted: February 08, 2021 at 11:42 PM (#6004353)
I’m quite excited about Molina. I still think he can raise his game back to league average and continue playing good defense. Everyone has to be excited when stars manage to play out their careers with one team. Be nice to see Waino and Molina have one more post-season run
   3. Zonk Will Be Reinstated in August Posted: February 09, 2021 at 08:29 AM (#6004374)
I'm probably a lot more bullish on Yadier's HoF chances than most - maybe even including Cardinal fans - but I definitely think he needs the lifelong Cardinal-dom to gain some additional mythos separation from Jim Sundberg.
   4. bjhanke Posted: February 09, 2021 at 06:42 PM (#6004496)
The most likely problem the Molina will face in the Hall of Fame is that his career numbers don't have the shape of any other HoF catchers. Most HoF catchers are power hitters with Gold Gloves, like Ewing, Hartnett, Berra, Bench, IRod.... Two (Cochrane and Bresnahan) were speedsters with good gloves who took many walks and so were on base constantly. There are a few guys who weren't power hitters or on-base speedsters, but some of them (Schalk) are viewed as mistakes, and some (Lopez) had their resumes spruced up with managerial careers, and would not be in the HoF without that. And then there is Ernie Lombardi, whose career is unique. There isn't really anybody whose batting stats have the shape of Molina's. I don't know how the voters will respond to this. There is no one to compare Yadi to, really.
   5. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: February 09, 2021 at 06:47 PM (#6004498)
Well, it's nice he got that 2,000th hit. But even with the "full catcher bonus" of 10 WAR, that still only gets him up to 50 or so; in the conversation, still well short of 62. (Maybe he could win a few pennants as a manger in the 2030s?)
   6. cardsfanboy Posted: February 09, 2021 at 08:08 PM (#6004502)
I’m quite excited about Molina. I still think he can raise his game back to league average and continue playing good defense. Everyone has to be excited when stars manage to play out their careers with one team. Be nice to see Waino and Molina have one more post-season run


I think Molina has the same issues as Rolen did in his later days as a Cardinal, a stubbornness to not take days off, while showing a clear improvement when he takes a day off. If Molina starts just 100 games, I think he'll be more valuable to the team than if he played 120. Let him choose 3 pitchers to be their personal starter, and then let the other guy (Whoever it ends up being) getting the other starts, let him come in for close games where we might need a better defensive catcher to handle an unsure reliever etc.... but roughly 100 starts.
   7. cardsfanboy Posted: February 09, 2021 at 08:11 PM (#6004503)
I'm probably a lot more bullish on Yadier's HoF chances than most - maybe even including Cardinal fans - but I definitely think he needs the lifelong Cardinal-dom to gain some additional mythos separation from Jim Sundberg.


I think he's crossed the line for many of the voters, but I have gotten in the habit of pointing to Sundberg to my Cardinal brethren as a roughly equivalent player who didn't remotely get any hof consideration. Barring some transforming incident with the electorate, I think Molina goes in through the writers within three elections, if not he goes in on the first shot with the veteran's committee. Whether he's deserving will be argued for another 100 years, but his enshrinement is extremely likely... even more so than Vizquel if he didn't beat a woman.
   8. Lassus Posted: February 09, 2021 at 10:36 PM (#6004527)
HOVG
   9. SoSH U at work Posted: February 09, 2021 at 10:37 PM (#6004528)
I have gotten in the habit of pointing to Sundberg to my Cardinal brethren as a roughly equivalent player who didn't remotely get any hof consideration.


They're only equivalent to a Hall of Merit-style voter. Molina is a 9-time all-star and the single Cardinals who was on all four WS teams over the course of the decade. Sundberg made three A-S teams and was a clearly inferior hitter. Add to that the fact Yadi's defense may be underrated by bWAR (he's a comfortable HoFer by fangraphs, for instance), and there's a reason Sundberg got no traction while Molina is a legit candidate.
   10. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 09, 2021 at 11:38 PM (#6004533)
The Hall is overdue on making a proper positional adjustment for catchers, having passed on the likes oaf Freehan, Torre, Munson, Posada, and Simmons (until the recent Vets Committee vote). Although I don’t have much of a problem with electing Molina, I do object to those who seem inclined to support Molina without acknowledging that there are more deserving players at his position that have been excluded - guys who could actually hit.
   11. baxter Posted: February 09, 2021 at 11:45 PM (#6004535)
10 Yes, especially on Freehan, not to slight the rest on your list, but really underrated. I don't know that any of the other c's had the defensive skills Molina had (Torre, Posada, not good defensive reps, likewise Simmons; Munson all around excellent). But, Freehan best AL catcher for 10 years, doesn't get his due. This is no argument against Molina, more C's should be in.
9 yes also; Sundberg more HOVG; Molina's getting in combination gold gloves, AS games + 2 WS (must admit I had forgotten Sundberg had a ring also).

I'm no Cards fan, but he's going to get in quite easily, barring some type of scandal.

Good for him. The competitiveness of these elite athletes drives them to want to play every day. Hopefully, he can stretch it out a bit more w/some rest.
   12. SoSH U at work Posted: February 09, 2021 at 11:49 PM (#6004536)
Although I don’t have much of a problem with electing Molina, I do object to those who seem inclined to support Molina without acknowledging that there are more deserving players at his position that have been excluded - guys who could actually hit.


I would have no problem with Freehan or Munson going in. Of course, since they're not on the BBWAA ballot, they don't really have anything to do with Yadi Molina's case.

I actually was a big fan of Posada when he was with the Yankees, but his defense really sink his candidacy for me. I can't imagine there are too many HoF catchers who had multiple pitchers who didn't want to throw to him.
   13. Voodoo Posted: February 10, 2021 at 12:17 AM (#6004538)
Yadi has always "felt like" a HoFer to me. Which I guess is a Rice/Morris argument. Posada, too, "felt" like that to me, but I'm given to the argument that Jorge was not a good enough defensive catcher to match that feel.
   14. Howie Menckel Posted: February 10, 2021 at 12:20 AM (#6004539)
Molina has perhaps the best "narrative over production" that I can ever remember.

which is not to belittle his accomplishments, which of course are impressive.

but even with the continuing turnover of HOF voters, I can't imagine him floundering on the ballot.

his first year of eligibility and the rest of the ballot of course will be key factors - but only in helping determine how many years he has to wait.

Molina's family can book that trip to Cooperstown, year not yet certain. he's HOF-bound, whether anyone likes it or not. and God bless Freehan and Sundberg et al, but they can't stop or even slow this train.
   15. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 10, 2021 at 01:03 AM (#6004540)
The Molina brothers combined have 54.5 WAR...just induct them as a package.
   16. Rally Posted: February 10, 2021 at 08:30 AM (#6004549)
And 6 rings between them? Or 5? Or 4?

Depends how you count. Bengie and Jose were both on the 2002 Angels, so is that 2 rings or one ring as a family?

Bengie played for the 2010 World Champion Giants. But he was not there in the postseason because he was traded to Texas, who lost the world series to the Giants.
   17. SoSH U at work Posted: February 10, 2021 at 08:54 AM (#6004551)
Bengie played for the 2010 World Champion Giants. But he was not there in the postseason because he was traded to Texas, who lost the world series to the Giants.


He got a ring.
   18. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: February 10, 2021 at 12:25 PM (#6004571)
Molina's family can book that trip to Cooperstown, year not yet certain.


Given that it's Benji and Jose we're talking about, they're going to need some advance notice in order to get up there in time.
   19. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 10, 2021 at 12:35 PM (#6004577)
I would have no problem with Freehan or Munson going in. Of course, since they're not on the BBWAA ballot, they don't really have anything to do with Yadi Molina's case.
Is every HoF vote an ad hoc decision, or do the prior results inform current voters as to what the standards are? If Freehan & Munson are not worthy, those inclined to vote for Molina might want to take a look at areas in which Freehan & Munson out-performed Molina. Applying a ‘just for Molina’ standard for the Hall isn’t a great process, IMHO.
   20. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 10, 2021 at 12:44 PM (#6004578)
Looking at his BRef page today, the thing that struck me about Molina is his total lack of black/gray ink. O/20 is lowwww. No black ink is fairly common for C b/c of the PT, but Simmons has 95 on gray, Munson 46. His offense is -86 runs (Rbat+Rbaseru+Rdp). That's worse than Ferrell.
   21. SoSH U at work Posted: February 10, 2021 at 12:57 PM (#6004579)
Applying a ‘just for Molina’ standard for the Hall isn’t a great process, IMHO.


Failing to use a "but whattabout Thurman and Bill" is not employing a 'just for Molina' standard.

Molina will be on the ballot, and should be measured on his merits, not whether he's better than the worst omission or two. Such a standard would have prevented Biggio from election because of the continued slights to Whitaker and Grich, and would suggest one should withhold votes from CC in a few years time because of Rick Reuschel's cruel fate.

Of course, it's also possible to think that Yadi is a better candidate than Thurman and Freehan, were one to believe Fangraphs does a better job of capturing catcher contributions than BBRef does.
   22. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 10, 2021 at 01:06 PM (#6004581)
Molina will be on the ballot, and should be measured on his merits, not whether he's better than the worst omission or two.

You can't evaluate him without looking at the in-out line. There's a cluster of guys that look similar or better than him on the out side. That has to matter.

Of course, it's also possible to think that Yadi is a better candidate than Thurman and Freehan, were one to believe Fangraphs does a better job of capturing catcher contributions than BBRef does.

The FG numbers are weird. We're to believe he was worth 20 runs a year between 2008 and 2013, and then lots most of the skill? Why would that happen with framing?
   23. Zonk Will Be Reinstated in August Posted: February 10, 2021 at 01:19 PM (#6004582)
The most likely problem the Molina will face in the Hall of Fame is that his career numbers don't have the shape of any other HoF catchers. Most HoF catchers are power hitters with Gold Gloves, like Ewing, Hartnett, Berra, Bench, IRod.... Two (Cochrane and Bresnahan) were speedsters with good gloves who took many walks and so were on base constantly. There are a few guys who weren't power hitters or on-base speedsters, but some of them (Schalk) are viewed as mistakes, and some (Lopez) had their resumes spruced up with managerial careers, and would not be in the HoF without that. And then there is Ernie Lombardi, whose career is unique. There isn't really anybody whose batting stats have the shape of Molina's. I don't know how the voters will respond to this. There is no one to compare Yadi to, really.


Schalk was a guy I was thinking of in the "HoF voters love glove-first catchers" vein... Anyway, I think voters are going to be shiny with the 9 GGs -- behind only Bench (10) and I-Rod (13). Bob Boone is next behind at 7 -- and while he never got out of single-digits, he did manage to stick around the ballot for 5 years or so.

I'm undecided on whether I'd actively support him, FWIW -- I'm just saying that I do think he'll get elected... and at least per my indecision, I don't think I'd necessarily be opposed to that.

Obviously, it gets harder and harder with expanded playoffs to figure out how to count such things - but he's actually got what amounts to nearly a full season worth of postseason numbers pretty much inline with his regular season production. In addition, while he didn't take home any postseason hardware - he was quite good and a key postseason contributor to both his rings, too... Eckstein/Freese were both fine choices - but maybe more "moment" based... Molina slashed 412/500/529 in the 2006 WS, 333/413/417 in 2011 - leading the team with 9 RBI. If not for Freese's game 6 walk-off - he's probably the 2011 WS MVP.

   24. SoSH U at work Posted: February 10, 2021 at 01:24 PM (#6004583)
There's a cluster of guys that look similar or better than him on the out side. That has to matter.


There are two catchers that look better (by one metric). There are some other guys who look similar. Preferring Molina to Posada is entirely defensible on the merits least favorable to Yadi.

The FG numbers are weird. We're to believe he was worth 20 runs a year between 2008 and 2013, and then lots most of the skill? Why would that happen with framing?


You don't have to take Fangraphs entirely on face value. If you think that his defensive contributions fit somewhere between BBRef's and Fangraphs, it would put him at the very top of the cluster.

   25. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 10, 2021 at 01:43 PM (#6004585)
There are two catchers that look better (by one metric). There are some other guys who look similar. Preferring Molina to Posada is entirely defensible on the merits least favorable to Yadi.

That's not true.

If you look by WAR you have these guys not in the HoF: Schang 47.9, Munson 46, Freehan 44, Posada 42.7, Kendall 41.7, Porter 40.9, Sundberg 40.5, Molina 40.4, Parrish 39.5
by WAA: Munson 25.5, Schang 23.3, Freehan 21.1, Porter 18.4, Sundberg 17.6, Posada 17.3, Molina 16.2, Kendall 14.6

It's a lot more than two guys ahead of Yadi, even if you bounce Posada for his D.

You don't have to take Fangraphs entirely on face value. If you think that his defensive contributions fit somewhere between BBRef's and Fangraphs, it would put him at the very top of the cluster.


No. A lot of those other guys were good defensive C too. You can just give Molina 5 or 10 extra wins for framing and give them nothing. That's a terrible methodology. I would guess framing was even a bigger factor back when umps couldn't review their calls on video after the game.
   26. SoSH U at work Posted: February 10, 2021 at 01:53 PM (#6004586)
OK, three of them look better, one of whom played 100 years ago. From Posada down through Parrish you're in a legit cluster, where other factors that have historically come into play in Hall voting (all-star games, role on a successful team, etc.) can tip the scales.

No. A lot of those other guys were good defensive C too. You can just give Molina 5or 10 extra wins for framing and give them nothing. That's a terrible methodology.


I'm doing no such thing.

Munson performs worse on Fangraphs than BBRef just on their methodology, independent of what he gained/lost on framing. Give him a normal level of extra framing points, and he's still coming up short of Molina. Same with Freehan. Same with Posada (who, of course, is being judged by almost the exact same criteria as Molina, as they're contemporaries).

If you don't like Fangraphs at all and you want to go exclusively by BBRef's WAR calculation, only value offense over defense in the position and don't care about any of the other stuff that often goes into Hall voting, then withholding a vote for Molina is fine.

But the idea that Molina is not a viable candidate at this moment, or shouldn't be considered because of two guys who can't make a Vets committee ballot, basically comes down to the idea that only that approach is acceptable, which is folly.

   27. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 10, 2021 at 02:02 PM (#6004588)
Munson performs worse on Fangraphs than BBRef just on their methodology, independent of what he gained/lost on framing. Give him a normal level of extra framing points, and he's still coming up short of Molina. Same with Freehan. Same with Posada (who, of course, is being judged by almost the exact same criteria as Molina, as they're contemporaries).

Take away framing, and Munson is almost exactly equal to Molina on fWAR in almost 2000 fewer PA. FG is giving him 15 wins. Freehan is 4 fWAR ahead of Molina in 1000 fewer PA. If they had fWAA, Munson and Freehan would crush him. Porter has the same fWAR as Molina in fewer PA.

You can't just give Molina 15 wins of framing and give other highly regarded catchers of the past zero, and call it a fair comparison.

   28. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 10, 2021 at 03:27 PM (#6004601)
Umpire errors now make a Hall of Famer?
   29. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 10, 2021 at 04:03 PM (#6004609)
Umpire errors now make a Hall of Famer?

Only if they happened from 2008 to when the robots arrive.
   30. cardsfanboy Posted: February 10, 2021 at 08:50 PM (#6004638)
Umpire errors now make a Hall of Famer?

In this particular argument yes, if it's something that can be exploited and there is evidence that some do a better job of exploiting it than others, then it is a "skill" that should be used in determining the value a player added. (And yes, I get that my argument also can be applied to PED... I have no problem with that argument, but it's actually a bit more nuanced than that) (note: for the record I've always been one of the people on this site who argues against the large numbers that people attach to pitch framing)

Mind you, the argument that people make about Yadier is beyond his framing, and it's his pitch calling, and ability to handle a staff, and I doubt that that is something that can be quantified, even in a 100 years, simply because we don't have enough control elements to make a statistical argument. (meaning that no matter what, we will never have enough data to quantify the difference between an average catcher at pitch calling vs a good or bad, simply because we'll never have enough data from a pitcher to make that determination... Even a pitcher who jumps around from team to team year to year, still has the issue of just 2-3 catchers to compare against in any given year, and that their skill levels change every year, so the data will never be there-- we can trust about 300 pa of data for hitters, about 3 years of data for fielders, it would be closer to 7 years of data to remotely trust for catchers pitch calling ability, and then we would have already eliminated a good portion of those who can't cut the mustard.... Piazza was a horrible catcher by the arm metrics, but I have yet to see anyone make a claim he couldn't call a game. There is a reason he stayed behind the plate for his career, and a reason why every team he caught for a full season was well above average in preventing runs. Whether people want to acknowledge it or not, simply because he had a big bat and we all know you either hit or play defense, doesn't negate the fact that he played defense on par with the REAL expectations of the position to keep a job. )

Ultimately, Sundberg, Molina, Bench or others are going to have to rely on the narrative when it comes to their ability to handle a staff, and the voters should include the narrative in their decision process.
   31. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 10, 2021 at 09:20 PM (#6004641)
In this particular argument yes, if it's something that can be exploited and there is evidence that some do a better job of exploiting it than others, then it is a "skill" that should be used in determining the value a player added.

Just to be clear, I have no problem including pitch framing, if we could include it for everyone. Effectively if we use it in WAR, we're using it only for Molina, and no one else who we'd naturally compare him to, except maybe Posey. That's the problem.

You can't say "Molina's at 40 WAR, give him 10 more from framing, so he's better than Munson, Freehan, Sundberg, Porter, & co." It's a blatantly unfair comparison.
   32. cardsfanboy Posted: February 10, 2021 at 09:49 PM (#6004644)
Just to be clear, I have no problem including pitch framing, if we could include it for everyone. Effectively if we use it in WAR, we're using it only for Molina, and no one else who we'd naturally compare him to, except maybe Posey. That's the problem.


I fully agree with this... I mean you include the data that you have to compare equivalent years, but you cannot use data that was developed to add value to a current player and then compare that value to a past player(while ignoring that you don't have the data for that player)... The point is of course to develop a concept of average vs good and bad and to somewhat use the new data we have to at least use the narrative data of the past to figure out extra value.
   33. Rally Posted: February 10, 2021 at 10:11 PM (#6004649)
The FG numbers are weird. We're to believe he was worth 20 runs a year between 2008 and 2013, and then lots most of the skill? Why would that happen with framing?


Other teams caught on to framing, catchers who were bad at it either figured out a way to get better or lost their jobs. Makes it a lot harder for a player to stand out.
   34. cardsfanboy Posted: February 10, 2021 at 10:29 PM (#6004652)
Other teams caught on to framing, catchers who were bad at it either figured out a way to get better or lost their jobs. Makes it a lot harder for a player to stand out.



Did other players stand out after 2013?

I agree with the sentiment of the argument, but for the data to speak, it would mean that the overall data dropped, if not, then the original comment stands.
   35. SoSH U at work Posted: February 10, 2021 at 10:53 PM (#6004654)
You can't say "Molina's at 40 WAR, give him 10 more from framing, so he's better than Munson, Freehan, Sundberg, Porter, & co." It's a blatantly unfair comparison.


First, you're treating this like it's a bonus, free points available only to modern catchers. It isn't. Those guys could have just as easily lost ground due to poor framing as gain it by good framing.

Second, the fact is, Molina stands out against his peers. Buster Posey hasn't added that much value. Joe Mauer, Chris Iannetta and any number of other catchers who had the same opportunity over that time frame didn't do what he did. That tells us that Molina really was a bit of a standout in that category. Which gets back to what I said at the beginning, that even if you don't take the fangraphs numbers at face value, simply acknowledging that they go some way to measuring defensive contributions makes Molina's candidacy look even better.

Finally, his Hall worthiness shouldn't be beholden to the failures of Thurman Munson and Bill Freehan any more than Craig Biggio is deemed unworthy because he wasn't as good as Grich and Whitaker.

Hell, his induction could help refocus some attention on their careers, attention that has not previously been paid.
   36. The Duke Posted: February 10, 2021 at 11:39 PM (#6004661)
I’m not sure Yadi is very close to being done yet. I’m guessing a minimum of two more years and I think he could play up to four more. I think the first two he will be a starter and then maybe part of a tandem. That’s possibly 350 more games which will help him get into the top 3 in counting stats for catchers, add to his hits total and I also think multiple more playoff appearances since the Cards seem to be in good shape with the arenado deal.

He keeps himself in pristine shape and at some point his Hall induction is inevitable if he keeps wracking up games/innings/hits

I definitely think Munson and Freehan should be in. I thought Posey was a lock and now I’m worried he just disappears. Mauer - not a good Comp as he split his playing time.

If Molina goes in, people should also assess McCann and Martin. Neither one is on my list but they both have very good cases
   37. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 11, 2021 at 11:08 AM (#6004697)

Finally, his Hall worthiness shouldn't be beholden to the failures of Thurman Munson and Bill Freehan any more than Craig Biggio is deemed unworthy because he wasn't as good as Grich and Whitaker.


Craig Biggio was clearly over the established line for HoFers. 3000 hits, 65 WAR, etc. Molina is scraping along the borderline. That's a big difference. The only HoF C's Molina is clearly better than are Schalk and Ferrell.

First, you're treating this like it's a bonus, free points available only to modern catchers. It isn't. Those guys could have just as easily lost ground due to poor framing as gain it by good framing.

No. No long term C that's in consideration for the HoF is likely to be bad at this skill if it's so important. The old-timers knew about it too. The old timers cared more about catcher D than the modern age does. It's likely every great C was a positive on this metric. Just like almost every long career SS was a big plus on D.
   38. SoSH U at work Posted: February 11, 2021 at 11:18 AM (#6004700)


No. No long term C that's considered for the HoF is likely to be bad at this skill if it's so important. The old-timers knew about it too. The old timers cared more about catcher D than the modern age does. It's likely every great C was a positive on this metric.


That's inane.
   39. Ron J Posted: February 11, 2021 at 11:54 AM (#6004712)
#38 It's also a testable hypothesis. And one I took a cursory look at many years ago. You can check pitchers before during and after moving to the team where the catcher in question was the main catcher. The only one I can recall my results was Johnny Bench. Pitchers joining the Reds did not show any noticeable tendency to pitch better. I mean some did, some didn't but I couldn't identify anything of interest.
   40. SoSH U at work Posted: February 11, 2021 at 12:02 PM (#6004716)
#38 It's also a testable hypothesis.


It's also disproven in other ways. First, we know that players defensive reputations aren't always supported by the data, such as with Roberto Alomar or Kirby Puckett.

Additionally, as for catchers, not all catchers had great defensive reputations (such as Ted Simmons).

Finally, we see it now WHEN WE HAVE THE DATA. Salvy Perez has a great defensive reputation, yet he doesn't score well by Fangraphs. The idea that all former great catchers were likely great at this just doesn't pass a test of any of the senses.
   41. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 11, 2021 at 12:30 PM (#6004719)
That's inane.

Not as inane as including a skill for one player, and one player only, and excluding it for everyone we're comparing him too. At a defense first position, you have to assume every who played there for a long time was at least pretty good at D. That's what we see if we look at rField for HoF SS. Yeah, you have the Jeter exception, but everyone else could pick it.

By oWAR, Molina would be the second worst C in the HoF, beating only Schalk.
   42. Harmon "Thread Killer" Microbrew Posted: February 11, 2021 at 01:58 PM (#6004737)
He keeps himself in pristine shape and at some point his Hall induction is inevitable if he keeps wracking up games/innings/hits


I don't follow the Cards very much so, between Yadi's catcher gear and his brothers, I wasn't sure about this. Googled it and, wouldn't you know it . . .
   43. cardsfanboy Posted: February 11, 2021 at 03:24 PM (#6004751)
Second, the fact is, Molina stands out against his peers. Buster Posey hasn't added that much value. Joe Mauer, Chris Iannetta and any number of other catchers who had the same opportunity over that time frame didn't do what he did. That tells us that Molina really was a bit of a standout in that category. Which gets back to what I said at the beginning, that even if you don't take the fangraphs numbers at face value, simply acknowledging that they go some way to measuring defensive contributions makes Molina's candidacy look even better.


This is the thing, I'm never going to be fan at definitive numbers for defense for a player "+ 22.5 runs" or whatever, but I am a fan of acknowledging ranges for defense. And I think a modern system can set up ranges for defense, that we can apply to a player.... simply speaking for most of his career you might make an argument that a great defensive catcher is responsible for .5 runs above average per 100 games played (or something like that) that isn't captured by the data we have or will ever have.

You can somewhat retroactively apply that to other players in the past and come up with an number etc to show their probable real world value. To me, catchers are going to be always underrepresented in war, because it doesn't, and will probably never fully recognize that they are involved in every single plate appearance to a small degree that they play defense. A shortstop might be involved in 15 plate appearances in a game, a left fielder maybe never etc... but there is literally not one single plate appearance in which a catcher is uninvolved in (same with pitchers, which is obvious, and is accounted for, but it's possible that we are overrating a pitchers value in the plate appearances, at least some--- and that is another thing, some pitchers control their pitch selection, location etc more than others so maybe for a rookie a pitcher is responsible for 40% of the pitching and the catcher 10% while for an established veteran it might be 48% to 2% or something like that, again, we'll never have enough data to know)

The thing is that as a general rule, the Cardinals have produced major league capable pitchers during Molina's time, they have seen their share of people come over and improve their performance as pitchers with Yadier, and the pitchers themselves have said as much... of course the opposite has happened too, so again, determining how much responsibility belongs to who is a tough nut to crack. To me, ultimately it falls down to a few core beliefs/ideas.

1. Catchers influence on the game is not able to be quantified, and never will be, but it has a value beyond what we give using war, how much value is hard to determine, but yes I think the best catchers probably add about .5 runs per 100 games caught (or 900 innings, whichever you prefer) that is general, and I honestly think that is a safe bet.

2. Pitch Framing numbers we have now, overrates catchers value in a system like war, a system which is based upon per pa value, while framing is based upon per pitch value, and I do not think those things are equal or should be calculated the way they are.

3. A view I have mentioned many times, a players ability to show up day in and day out, and that the team can rely on it happening in the future, in itself, has value, it allows the team to alter their bench to strengthen itself for perceived needs since they don't have to worry about the position, in this case the Cardinals didn't need to spend a chunk of change on a backup catcher or have to hunt for one or develop one etc.. how much value that adds is, again a debate, but if you can save 3 mil on a position and use it elsewhere because of the certainty that you are getting by having Cal Ripken at short, should be extra credit for the player.

3a. at the same time, a player being stubborn and playing at less than ability, simply because they want to be in the lineup, should also be a consideration. (People point to Ripken as an example of this, I point to late St Louis Rolen as an example, and also the past three years of Molina) If your performance is noticeably better when you take two days off, maybe accept that aging is a thing, and take those days off.(mind you, war does effectively count for this, but if you take the day off, and improve your WAA, and allow the team to selectively choose the best option for a backup, it might end up being more beneficial for the team... there is a reason that the best left handed hitters take off against the best left handed pitchers, it gives them a rest, and allows the team to choose the best matchup options)

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
aleskel
for his generous support.

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogTB progressing with Montreal Sister City plan
(39 - 1:59am, Sep 28)
Last: Doug Jones threw harder than me

NewsblogWhy Detroit Tigers, Chicago White Sox stormed the field: 'It wasn't intentional'
(2 - 1:44am, Sep 28)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

NewsblogShohei Ohtani, on future with Los Angeles Angels: 'I want to win'
(19 - 1:29am, Sep 28)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogBrother HRs off brother for first time since '75
(6 - 12:59am, Sep 28)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

NewsblogThe Cardinals’ Impressive Winning Streak Doesn’t Guarantee October Success
(14 - 12:50am, Sep 28)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogNBA 2021 Playoffs+ thread
(4653 - 10:50pm, Sep 27)
Last: PJ Martinez

Sox TherapyThat Didn’t Go Well, But The Situation Is Still Very Good
(21 - 10:36pm, Sep 27)
Last: snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster)

NewsblogOT Soccer Thread - Transfer! Kits! Other Stuff!
(302 - 9:02pm, Sep 27)
Last: bunyon

NewsblogArizona Diamondbacks give manager Torey Lovullo one-year extension despite 104-loss season
(11 - 7:34pm, Sep 27)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogWhich MLB managers are on the hot seat? Ranking four skippers most likely to be fired after 2021 season
(2 - 6:47pm, Sep 27)
Last: Tom Nawrocki

Newsblog14 wins in a row! Cards tie 1935 club record
(17 - 6:24pm, Sep 27)
Last: Ron J

NewsblogChicago Cubs plan to be 'really active" in MLB free agency, says team president Jed Hoyer
(13 - 6:13pm, Sep 27)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogMullins 1st Oriole in 30-30 club: 'It's surreal'
(29 - 6:11pm, Sep 27)
Last: Ned Garvin: Male Prostitute

NewsblogEmpty Stadium Sports Will Be Really Weird
(14214 - 5:10pm, Sep 27)
Last: GregD

NewsblogFINAL REGULAR SEASON OMNICHATTER! for September 27 thru Game 162!
(8 - 5:06pm, Sep 27)
Last: Walt Davis

Page rendered in 0.5181 seconds
48 querie(s) executed