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Wednesday, February 10, 2021

Sources: Boston Red Sox sending Andrew Benintendi to Kansas City Royals in 3-team deal

The Boston Red Sox, Kansas City Royals and New York Mets have agreed to a three-way trade that will send outfielder Andrew Benintendi from Fenway to K.C., sources told ESPN’s Jeff Passan on Wednesday night.

Royals outfield prospect Khalil Lee will go to the Mets, while Royals outfielder Franchy Cordero will go to the Red Sox, with other players involved as well, sources told ESPN.

Benintendi, once a part of the Red Sox’s vaunted outfield core, missed most of the pandemic-shortened 2020 season, landing on the injured list Aug. 12 because of a strained right rib cage, with Boston later ruling him out for the year.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 10, 2021 at 10:07 PM | 47 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: andrew benintendi, mets, red sox, royals

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   1. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: February 10, 2021 at 10:56 PM (#6004655)
Josh Winckowski, we hardly knew ye.
   2. Jay Seaver Posted: February 10, 2021 at 11:08 PM (#6004658)
Man, in just a little over a year in the job, Chaim Bloom has really done a good job in making rooting for the Red Sox about as much fun as I always imagined rooting for the Rays to be.

Sure, this may be a net gain, but it sure feels dispiriting.
   3. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 10, 2021 at 11:16 PM (#6004659)
while Royals outfielder Franchy Cordero


Is this just Jeff Francoeur playing under a pseudonym?
   4. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: February 11, 2021 at 12:13 AM (#6004663)
"Hey, remember when we won 108 games? LOL"
   5. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: February 11, 2021 at 01:10 AM (#6004666)
So does Khalil Lee a guy who could potentially play next year as semi-regular or regular CFer?
   6. The Duke Posted: February 11, 2021 at 08:36 AM (#6004672)
This seems like the kind of deal teams like the royals should always be doing. Get a former prized prospect on the cheap with a couple years of control and he either doesn’t make you worse or he gets good and you trade him to help you rebuild. They did a similar thing with rosenthal last year.
   7. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 11, 2021 at 08:47 AM (#6004674)
Depending on the PTBNLs, I'm okay with this trade. I liked Lee and Cordero, but they are both huge question marks. I'm not sure I get the idea that "we should contend" in the next two years, but this does make them better, and I like Andrew's chances of being a trade asset in next two years better than Lee or Cordero in 4-5 years.
   8. Zonk Will Be Reinstated in August Posted: February 11, 2021 at 08:47 AM (#6004675)
Yeesh, Red Sox....
   9. jmurph Posted: February 11, 2021 at 08:50 AM (#6004676)
I don't what all the angst is about, cheering for payroll flexibility is good and righteous.
   10. Nasty Nate Posted: February 11, 2021 at 09:02 AM (#6004678)
So I assume the quantity of PTBNLs in this deal is a result of the COVIDized 2020. So the Sox presumably want to see the guys in question show up and prove they're alive, etc.

Does anyone have any guesses when those players will be moved? End of spring training? Mid-season? Each at different times?
   11. RoyalFlush Posted: February 11, 2021 at 09:04 AM (#6004679)
So does Khalil Lee a guy who could potentially play next year as semi-regular or regular CFer?


As a Royals fan, I didn't notice him on anyone's radar to crack the Royals' MLB roster next year.

If Franchy ever figures out how to stay healthy and put the bat on the ball, he has the potential to put up numbers. There wasn't any evidence that was going to happen in KC, but I'd like to see what he can do.
   12. Mike Webber Posted: February 11, 2021 at 10:26 AM (#6004691)
Many times I've read Dayton Moore saying "we need to improve our OBP."

This might be the first time I ever remember seeing them make an actual move where they picked up a guy that a lot of his value is in walks. One can only assume they will flog that out of Andrew B, we won't get past St. Patrick's day without articles from coaches saying things like "more aggressive early in counts" and "changing his approach."


I do like this move for all three sides.
   13. villageidiom Posted: February 11, 2021 at 10:45 AM (#6004692)
I'm going to look at this as Benintendi for Cordero, because Winckowski is far enough away that we don't even know if he'll survive AA, let alone contribute in MLB, and PTBNLs rarely amount to anything. Obviously if Boston gets anything out of any of them, good for them.

Szym has an article up on the trade, with projections. It seems as though Benintendi has upside only on the performance front. Cordero has performance upside, but also playing time upside - his projections assume he only plays in about half the games. (ZiPS doesn't project playing time, but it does rely on playing time estimates for projected WAR totals.) Like, Cordero being better than Benintendi the next few years might just depend simply on Cordero staying healthy, and not on other development improvements.

That doesn't mean Cordero is likely to be healthy. There's obviously injury downside to his projections. But the same is true with Benintendi - his WAR projections assume he's playing essentially full time. Both of them missed about 3/4 of the short 2020 season due to injury. And some have suggested Benintendi's subpar 2019 might have been due to playing through an undisclosed injury.

I guess a lot of this comes down to how good you feel about Boston acquiring a player with significant injury history and finding a way to turn that around. I don't feel good about that at all. I mean, I really hope Cordero stays healthy because he could be an exciting player to watch. But Boston acquiring a player with an injury history usually means history will repeat itself.
   14. pikepredator Posted: February 11, 2021 at 11:05 AM (#6004696)
Man, in just a little over a year in the job, Chaim Bloom has really done a good job in making rooting for the Red Sox about as much fun as I always imagined rooting for the Rays to be.

Sure, this may be a net gain, but it sure feels dispiriting.


I came into this thread hoping someone would cheer me up . . . I like understanding baseball through advanced stats and all that but I prefer rooting for actual players I know and like for more than a year or two in a row.

I don't what all the angst is about, cheering for payroll flexibility is good and righteous.


now I feel all kinds of better.
   15. jmurph Posted: February 11, 2021 at 11:23 AM (#6004702)
now I feel all kinds of better.

Eh I know nothing of the prospects so my sarcasm can probably be mostly ignored. It's just been a really uninspiring couple of years.
   16. pikepredator Posted: February 11, 2021 at 11:39 AM (#6004705)
agreed 100%, jmurph. I'm all for keeping JBJ because he's friggin' fun to watch. Red Sox can print money, they can afford to put a decent team on the field that is fun to watch. I'm not asking for a WS ever year, just a competitive team with talent. And talent is fun. Economically responsible talent that is commensurate with it's investment isn't nearly as entertaining.
   17. The Mighty Quintana Posted: February 11, 2021 at 11:42 AM (#6004707)
Well, when Franchy hits a ball it stays hit. However, the frequency is not exactly what you'd want. Benny looked like toast last year, so I guess on the 5% chance Franchy turns into Nelson Cruz, the trade is OK. More likely he turns into Butch Huskey or Wily Mo Pena based on what I've seen of him.
   18. Zach Posted: February 11, 2021 at 12:39 PM (#6004721)
I keep thinking that Cordero has a 40-40 season in him somewhere, but staying healthy enough to get 600 at bats to do it with doesn't seem likely.

"Playing time upside" seems like an overly rosy way to describe someone who can't stay on the field.

I love upside, but I hate the idea of trading blue chips for it.

Lee is a quality prospect who should make the majors at some point.

I think the Royals did pretty well here.
   19. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 11, 2021 at 12:42 PM (#6004722)

Many times I've read Dayton Moore saying "we need to improve our OBP."

This might be the first time I ever remember seeing them make an actual move where they picked up a guy that a lot of his value is in walks. One can only assume they will flog that out of Andrew B, we won't get past St. Patrick's day without articles from coaches saying things like "more aggressive early in counts" and "changing his approach."


Both Santana and Benintendi have career walk rates of 10+ percent. There have only been eight seasons that players have reached that mark under Dayton Moore - all but two are from Alex Gordon and Billy Butler, who he inherited.
   20. dave h Posted: February 11, 2021 at 01:09 PM (#6004726)
The Red Sox seem to have been really focused in the last couple years in making fans like me lose all interest in the team, which given how rabid a fan I was not that long ago is really quite a feat.
   21. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: February 11, 2021 at 01:15 PM (#6004728)
I am going to withhold judgment on this trade, from the Red Sox perspective, until we see who the three PTBNL are. PTBNL typically means some form of "throw in guys", but in this case, Bloom made it clear that they are waiting on the minor-leaguers until they have a chance to see them in action (since most of them saw no on-field action in 2020). I suspect at least one of the three players will be a prospect of note. Four of the system's top 17 prospects, as ranked by SoxProspects.com, were the result of trades in 2020-21 (Downs, Seabold, Rosario, and Potts). Three more were the results of trade currently ranked in the 20s (Wong, Wallace, and German). I would bet one of the three PTBNLs will be a top-20 additional to Boston's system, another in the top 30, and then a lottery ticket or depth guy. The REd Sox need all the minor-league depth they can get, after what was left after the 2019 season, and Bloom seems particularly good at this...we'll see.
   22. SoSH U at work Posted: February 11, 2021 at 01:15 PM (#6004729)

The Red Sox seem to have been really focused in the last couple years in making fans like me lose all interest in the team, which given how rabid a fan I was not that long ago is really quite a feat.


Yup.
   23. jmurph Posted: February 11, 2021 at 02:02 PM (#6004738)
The Red Sox seem to have been really focused in the last couple years in making fans like me lose all interest in the team, which given how rabid a fan I was not that long ago is really quite a feat.
Yup.

Absolutely never thought they could do anything to make this happen, but yeah, obviously same for me. I've been feeling the urge to dive back in, though, so I'm hoping for some reasons for optimism soon.
   24. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: February 11, 2021 at 02:54 PM (#6004747)
I suspect this is part of what comes along with being run by Dave Dombrowski - a real boom-or-bust pattern. I mean, I am willing to have some crappy years in exchange for the championships in 2013 and 2018, but are sports increasingly becoming a "load up" or "tear down" decision every year?

Since 2012, the Red Sox have finished as follows in their division:
2012: Last
2013: First, won world series
2014: Last
2015: Last
2016: First, lost ALDS
2017: First, lost ALDS
2018: First, won World Series
2019: Third
2020: Last

That's 4 first-place finishes; 4 last-place finishes; and a third place finish where we finished 19 games out of 1st place.

That's a lot of boom-or-bust in a short amount of time, and the current operation seems content to build something theoretically a little more conventional.
   25. Mike Webber Posted: February 11, 2021 at 03:23 PM (#6004749)

@19
Both Santana and Benintendi have career walk rates of 10+ percent. There have only been eight seasons that players have reached that mark under Dayton Moore - all but two are from Alex Gordon and Billy Butler, who he inherited.


I forgot the Santana move, wow two moves in one off season after years of none. John Sherman? Not the Glass family? Something changed.

Whatever it is at least the actions are matching the rhetoric.
   26. cardsfanboy Posted: February 11, 2021 at 03:48 PM (#6004754)
I suspect this is part of what comes along with being run by Dave Dombrowski - a real boom-or-bust pattern. I mean, I am willing to have some crappy years in exchange for the championships in 2013 and 2018, but are sports increasingly becoming a "load up" or "tear down" decision every year?


Can't say anything about other sports, but the Dodgers, Cardinals, Yankees, don't follow that model. And I think the Braves are pretty safe to say don't follow that model, sure they did a tear down, but we are still talking about 30 years and 6 losing seasons (4 of which was 2014-2017- their tear down years)

I get that the Cubs and Astros helped promote this philosophy, but it's not a necessity, the A's don't really tear themselves down as they just don't bother to build themselves up too much either, Brewers didn't tear down.. of the 12 teams with above a .500 record for this century, I think that the Yankees, Cardinals, Dodgers, A's are safe from the tear down label, the Red Sox, Cubs, and Astros absolutely deserve the build and tear down labels, while the Indians, Giants, Phillies, and Twins are debatable. (meaning I really don't know what they actually did)
   27. jmurph Posted: February 11, 2021 at 03:56 PM (#6004756)
I think 24 makes things look a little more intentional than they were in real time, especially the first part of the 2010s.
   28. Nasty Nate Posted: February 11, 2021 at 04:05 PM (#6004758)
I think 24 makes things look a little more intentional than they were in real time, especially the first part of the 2010s.
Agreed. The 2012, 2014, and 2015 teams were veteran-filled high-payroll teams that failed.
   29. villageidiom Posted: February 11, 2021 at 04:45 PM (#6004762)
Yeah, it's not like Boston has really done anything like a tear-down in a long time. They'll do the "oops we spent a shitton of money on the wrong players, let's unload them" move every year or two. This is different - and, by my eye, partly the byproduct of spending too much on the wrong players.

To wit, just before the Dodgers signed Bauer, they had roughly the same 2021 payroll as Boston. Tell me the Dodgers' roster pre-Bauer and the Boston roster were of equal value.
   30. . Posted: February 11, 2021 at 05:04 PM (#6004763)
I mean, I am willing to have some crappy years in exchange for the championships in 2013 and 2018, but are sports increasingly becoming a "load up" or "tear down" decision every year?


Thanks, analytics!!

OK, I'm going to go back into the vault and throw out an old-school story from 1980, which I would consider at or near the peak of baseball. I'd probably pick like 1988 or 1992 over it and a year like 2010 wasn't even that bad, either, but this will help describe the contrast between the silly "we have to be a clear contender or we're probably tearing down" era which just takes all the fun and spontaneity out of everything.

So the 1980 Tigers with a little help from BB-ref to make sure memories aren't off. Came into the season with some promise and optimism with some young guys looking like great players -- Trammell, Lou, Parrish, Gibson, Morris. A division title, while optimistic, isn't remotely inconceivable. Very carefree time of life for this fan, not a care in the world really. So of course after blasting the Royals at KC in the opener, the season spirals quickly out of control. One and seven, 7-13, 10-16. Then in baseball's inimitable way, the season slowly but surely starts getting better and by mid-June, they climb from 21-26 to 37-30, only 6.5 games out.

So that summer the Tigers played a lot of summer doubleheaders and I went to almost every one of them. (*) July 27, Billyball A's at Tigers for a Sunday day doubleheader. Tigers win the first game. Tigers 8 out. Pretty sure by the time of the second game, the crowd knew the Yankees had lost, so if they Tigers won, they'd be 7 out. Morris starting the second game. Oakland jumps out to a 1-0 lead which they hold for many innings. Bottom of the 8th, Tigers down 2-0, get a rally going.(**) Sometime in one of the ABs with men on and Keough behind in the count, the 44,093 in attendance start to go nuts making noise. Whereupon (or maybe to spur, can't remember) the pre-video CF board (picture like an updated Astrodome or Three Rivers with the "WOW!" or the "ZOWIE!!" flashing) starts to flash on and off in a big ass font, "PENNANT FEVER!!!," "PENNANT FEVER!!!", which then spurs the crowd even more. (Rally fades, A's win 4-0).

Now how are we to explain and deconstruct that crowd clearly in the throes of pennant fever even though the odds of winning the division were still quite low? Naive? Stupid? Clueless? Wasn't that moment of hope somehow ... worth something in and of itself irrespective of the odds or where the team stood on the "win curve"? To me the answer is obviously yes. I mean, as a fan it was obviously better that season to have moments like those than to sit through a bunch of stories about GMing and rebuliding. What happened to moments like those? They seem to have been replaced by dreams farther down the road, less immediate, more speculative, with the dream's stars not the guys actually on the team, but the stats and youtubes of minor leaguers, and the prospect reports on ESPN+ and BA and Fangraphs and stories about the great "philosophy" of the GM. The Tigers were actually in the "right" place on the "win curve" then, but a similarly-situated team today not on the right place on the "win curve" would have the Fangraphs and other commentariat spending the long, happy days of mid-summer shitting on them for being happy being 8 games out and belaboring the fact that they have no future. At least in the time they weren't demanding that the team trade all the players fans had grown to like, so as to build for "the next good [INSERT TEAM NAME HERE] team."(TM)(***)

I don't see that as improvement. Why? Because it's not an improvement.

(*) I've previously referenced the Al Oliver 4-homer doubleheader from that year.

(**) During which, Billy Martin came out for a mound visit and spent, bare minimum, 45 seconds screaming like a lunatic at his catcher, Jeff Newman, for god knows what, probably calling a "stupid pitch" or something. Or more likely, it being a long Sunday after Saturday night in one of his former big league haunts, Billy was badly hung over. Friends and I had pretty good seats and got a nice chuckle out of it.

(***) And it should be mentioned here that it wasn't like salaries and payroll weren't considerations. Five years into the free agency era, they absolutely were.

   31. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 11, 2021 at 05:20 PM (#6004770)
Wasn't that moment of hope somehow ... worth something in and of itself irrespective of the odds or where the team stood on the "win curve"? To me the answer is obviously yes. I mean, as a fan it was obviously better that season to have moments like those than to sit through a bunch of stories about GMing and rebuliding. What happened to moments like those? They seem to have been replaced by dreams farther down the road, less immediate, more speculative, with the dream's stars not the guys actually on the team, but the stats and youtubes of minor leaguers, and the prospect reports on ESPN+ and BA and Fangraphs and stories about the great "philosophy" of the GM. The Tigers were actually in the "right" place on the "win curve" then, but a similarly-situated team today not on the right place on the "win curve" would have the Fangraphs and other commentariat shitting on them for being happy being 8 games out and belaboring the fact that they have no future.
Come on. It's exactly those moments that the teardowns are (trying to) build toward and achieve. Did it escape your notice that every single one of the players you mentioned - Trammell, Lou, Parrish, Gibson, Morris - was a young product of the Tigers' farm system? The 2015 Cubs had exactly the same vibe, although of course they did end up winning the pennant, and it was tremendously exciting. The excitement comes from a sense that there is a group of core young players that can form the basis of a sustained run of success.

If you have a team with a bunch of middling, kinda expensive veterans that finds itself 8 games out in July, there would be nowhere near the level of excitement. That's like, I dunno, the 2018 Pirates or something.
   32. . Posted: February 11, 2021 at 05:37 PM (#6004772)
That makes perfect sense, but only from the conditioned perspective of the analytics era. The premises, templates, nomenclature, narratives don't translate back -- really at all. The 2015 Wrigley crowd has an entirely different frame of reference and modes of interpretation than the 1980 crowd. The 1980 people would see being on the cusp of only being 7 out as far more inherently worthy and valuable than the 2015 crowd. (And no, I didn't poll them lol and yeah I was only 16. But sports fans and writers just didn't think in armchair GM terms then as they do now. It's like 10,000 times more that now than it was then. Fans and writers are WAY WAY WAY smarter now, that's true. No question about it. I've just never understood why that's ipso facto seen as a good thing and no philosophical support has ever really been offered for it, beyond the trite, "Being smart is better than being stupid." But of course, that isn't true. Knowingness isn't always a good thing and oftentimes it sucks. Would we want to know exactly when we're going to die? Don't think so.)
   33. Howie Menckel Posted: February 11, 2021 at 06:04 PM (#6004775)
The 2015 Cubs had exactly the same vibe, although of course they did end up winning the pennant

um, not THAT one - 4-2, 4-1, 5-2, 8-3 says otherwise

   34. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 11, 2021 at 07:11 PM (#6004784)
Well, they won the damn pennant in my mind.
   35. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 11, 2021 at 07:35 PM (#6004789)
That makes perfect sense, but only from the conditioned perspective of the analytics era. The premises, templates, nomenclature, narratives don't translate back -- really at all.
So that means you're going to just dismiss any example I would give since when, maybe 2000? OK, I'll go back further...remember the White Sox' "White Flag" trade that they caught so much crap for? That was on July 31, 1997, when they were only at .500, in third place, 3 games behind in their division.

So they're not a great comp, but the 1997 Mets seem to be a pretty good one. Their next home series started on Aug. 4, when they were 14 games over .500, in third place, 7.5 games out.

They were a veteran, expensive team - Lance Johnson, Bernard Gilkey, John Olerud, Todd Hundley, Edgardo Alfonzo, Rey Ordonez, and Rick Reed were all in the starting lineup. John Franco got the save.

That night, they drew 17,944 fans. The next night: 22,777. The next night: 26,633. Night after that: 29,536.

Ah, but those were weekday games, you say. What about the weekend? Friday night: 23,818. Saturday night: 34,352. Sunday night: 32,914.

Of course we don't know how fired up those fans were, but...there definitely weren't 44k+ of them there. Just one example, but I would be very surprised if there weren't a ton of others.
   36. Moses Taylor hashes out the rumpus Posted: February 11, 2021 at 07:46 PM (#6004791)
I get that the Cubs and Astros helped promote this philosophy, but it's not a necessity, the A's don't really tear themselves down as they just don't bother to build themselves up too much either, Brewers didn't tear down.. of the 12 teams with above a .500 record for this century, I think that the Yankees, Cardinals, Dodgers, A's are safe from the tear down label, the Red Sox, Cubs, and Astros absolutely deserve the build and tear down labels, while the Indians, Giants, Phillies, and Twins are debatable. (meaning I really don't know what they actually did)

The tear down looks worse when everyone is doing it at the same time or you're doing a tear down because you want to cheap out (like the Cubs now). I think there are times when a tear down makes sense, but those aren't nearly as common as people think or are happening*. The smarter play - which is honestly easier said than done - is the reload or whatever the hell you want to call what the 2016 Yankees did.

Having said all that, I definitely appreciate the fan argument of the dregs of losing now more than I did before. The 2012-2014 Cubs were awful to watch, but so were the 2011 Cubs so it wasn't much of a downgrade.


*I'll go to my grave arguing the original Cubs teardown was a good decision and it worked just about as well as you could have hoped.
   37. cardsfanboy Posted: February 11, 2021 at 08:09 PM (#6004796)

*I'll go to my grave arguing the original Cubs teardown was a good decision and it worked just about as well as you could have hoped.


Honestly, I have no issue with a teardown... you do that when you get new management, and they aren't happy with the things were going previously and they want to set up a new philosophy.... I'm fine with that, a second tear down under the same management/ownership shows a failure of leadership, there is no reason to build a team that is about up and down cycles, ESPECIALLY when you are allowed a tear down from ownership.... I get that if you don't have the option of a tear down, and you come in and do a good job just to keep your job, that things might snowball to the point that the stuff that made you successful in the past is now hurting you, but you should have planned better. No reason to tear down after being successful... as you said, you reload, you accept a couple of mediocre years or whatever, but you don't just tell the fans and owner "we are tearing this isht down"... at no point in time outside of the first two years as gm or owner, is a tear down an acceptable course of action.

I know I'm spoiled. But I cannot imagine being a fan of a team that is in a constant state of up and down cycles... I understand being a fan of a team that isn't good, but when the operational philosophy seems to be looking at 3 years down the road and not one year down the road, I find it hard to care about the team. Yes again I get the realities of the situation, but at the same time, if I'm a fan of a 70 win team, I would like to think that we are just a year or two away from being competitive, anything longer turns me off from the team.

At the same time, if I was a Marlins fan, and the new Derek Jeter group came in and said we are tearing it down, and we are doing it to improve the team three years down the road, then they trade their best players, not to save money but to get a crap ton of potential prospects, then that would make me mad and hopeful at the same time... Nobody thinks that is what the Marlins actually did.
   38. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: February 11, 2021 at 08:35 PM (#6004800)
The Red Sox seem to have been really focused in the last couple years in making fans like me lose all interest in the team, which given how rabid a fan I was not that long ago is really quite a feat.
Thirded or fourthed or whatever it is.

Though actually, in my case it's really only been a year. A year to the day today actually, the Betts trade. 2019's underperformance was a bummer but I wasn't *md* about it, just disappointed. They traded Mookie and my interest and rabidness went from about an 8 or 9 to a 2 or a 3.

Put another way: #### you, John Henry.
   39. dave h Posted: February 11, 2021 at 08:45 PM (#6004803)
Yeah, trading Mookie is obviously the biggest part of it, but it's not the whole story. I was devastated when they traded Nomar (I named my first cat after him) but it was clear it was a baseball move. Now it's clear that everything is business. In fact I'd throw in the PawSox move, which to me was absolutely disgusting. Put everything together, and it's just severed the kind of psychic connection I had to the team, where I felt every win and loss in my core. It's not even a conscious choice, it's just gone.
   40. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 11, 2021 at 09:48 PM (#6004810)
I was devastated when they traded Nomar (I named my first cat after him)
Cat approaches food bowl.

Cat pauses.

Cat scratches left ear with back paw.

Cat scratches right ear with other back paw.

Cat grooms whiskers with front paw.

Cat twitches tail once...twice...three times.

Cat arches back.

Cat stretches front paws forward.

Cat takes bite of food.

Cat backs away, circles food bowl.

Return to step 1...
   41. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: February 11, 2021 at 10:48 PM (#6004815)
(I named my first cat after him)


When I was a sophomore in college, a little black-and-white cat wandered into my dorm. I fed her and hung out with her and named her Nomar. After a few weeks, she wandered off. I like to think she lived a long and good life off the scraps of college dining halls.
   42. . Posted: February 12, 2021 at 07:52 AM (#6004826)
So that means you're going to just dismiss any example I would give since when, maybe 2000?


This gives short shrift to our general agreement. The only "disagreement" appears to be the degree to which fans have been conditioned to accept teardowns and the premises of analytics, as opposed to just coming to those conclusions and narratives on their own. I think the conditioning is dramatic, although modern communications tools also really help. It was a lot easier for Cub fans to dream and project during the teardown/rebuild when they could actually follow the prospects every day on the internet and see highlights of them on youtube and elsewhere and the prospect websites gave them the fun opportunity to compare their prospect stash with other teams'. Couldn't be done pre-net. Trammell/Morris/Gibson/Lou, etc. were far more distant when they were minor leaguers than Baez/Bryant, etc. Everything else equal, that makes teardown rebuilds much easier to sell now than then.

Was obviously REALLY young at the time, but if you take the Tigers they actually did ride out their veterans that had won the 1968 World Series and the 1972 AL East until the bitter end until it all came crashing down in the second half of 1974. They had practically a whole new young team the next year. But that was a rebuild more of necessity, much more in the natural ebbs and flows of time passing rather than the conscious teardowns of today many of which have nothing to do with a good team simply aging out. Rebuilding an aged out team in the pre-analytics era obviously happened all the time. It wasn't the "we're contending or we're tearing down" as it is today.
   43. . Posted: February 12, 2021 at 08:14 AM (#6004827)
The differences in the two eras can be seen starkly in the early 90s Pirates who kept a team together all the way until the players they had no chance of being able to keep together became free agents at the end of 1992. The analytics era would have been demanding that that team be sold off and rebuilt, probably starting in 1990.
   44. Lassus Posted: February 12, 2021 at 08:30 AM (#6004829)
Thanks, analytics!!
Good christ.
   45. Zach Posted: February 12, 2021 at 03:06 PM (#6004904)
The Royals tried to keep the 2015 team together until the bitter end. Almost every quality young player hit free agency after 2017, which meant that everything was predictably going to come crashing down in 2018 (which it did).

But I'd argue that a small market team has to ride the good times, or ruin the market. The prospects they would have gotten for Hosmer, Moustakas, Cain, and Perez wouldn't have kept them contending, and would have soured the memory of 2015.

Do a Marlins style teardown of a winning team too often and you risk ending up with the Marlins' local market.
   46. DFA Posted: February 13, 2021 at 02:09 AM (#6004956)
primey for #40
   47. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 13, 2021 at 08:08 AM (#6004960)
The differences in the two eras can be seen starkly in the early 90s Pirates who kept a team together all the way until the players they had no chance of being able to keep together became free agents at the end of 1992. The analytics era would have been demanding that that team be sold off and rebuilt, probably starting in 1990.

I am as anti-teardown as just about anyone, but this is a tough example to use. The Pirates held onto pretty much everyone until they reached free agency, and were great for three years, but that was followed by 20 consecutive losing seasons. Of course, that was due more to mismanagement after 1992 than to the decision to let Bonds/Bonilla/etc walk.

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