This makes me happy on so many levels.

Wow; they managed to #### up this one, too.

Nice call, ##########.

Popcorn: check.
Cocoa: check.
Comfy easy chair: check.

settles in

Okay, Yankees fans: let 'er rip.

Wow. That's a horrible decision, but I can't help but laugh.

I guess Jeter will never get one now. Despite all the Jeter hate out there, that is not right.

It's the RBIzzzzz, bay-bee!

So what can we now say about the voters? In both leagues, they went for (a) RBIs, and (b) the guy with the big second-half drive. The voters have short attention spans and they pay attention to the most meaningless possible data.

Bully for them.

One of the worst votes in history. And this has to be the worst year in the history of the MVP Award. For both leagues' awards to go so obviously and completely wrong is unprecedented. Isn't it?

so the Face of Baseball will have to console himself by curling up with Scarlett Johansson in front of a crackling fire

(God, I hate that guy)

I've never been more pleased that the BBWAA is as utterly clueless as they are. All hail MVP Morneau.

Okay, Yankees fans: let 'er rip.

Jeter really shouldn't have gotten it either (but he would have been a better choice)

Like it's been said before; Morneau was the third best player on the damn Twins behind their starting catcher and ace pitcher!

I think he is dating Jessica Biel now.

RBIs are to MVP voters as weed is to willie nelson.

so the Face of Baseball will have to console himself by curling up with Scarlett Johansson in front of a crackling fire

I think he's moved on to Jessica Biel by now.

One of the worst votes in history. And this has to be the worst year in the history of the MVP Award. For both leagues' awards to go so obviously and completely wrong is unprecedented. Isn't it?

Wait until the 2007 MVPs go to Chone Figgins and David Eckstein.

A bad decision of historical proportions; Morneau didn't even make my top 20.

For both leagues' awards to go so obviously and completely wrong is unprecedented. Isn't it?

1987.

Is Sam M. hoping for Morneau's career to crash and burn, too, now?

I have no words. A tiny, tiny part of me is a little happy to see the Jeter fetish a subset of sportswriters go unfulfilled, but a much, much bigger part of me thinks this is proof positive that a majority of baseball writers simply do not understand the sport they cover. Not that I ever took much creedence in what many of them wrote or thought anyway, but this is absolutely incredible. As I said elsewhere, how do you have him ahead of Jeter, Mauer, Hafner, Ortiz, Dye, Sizemore, Wells, Santana, Guillen, or Guerrero. How could he possibly even be in the top 5?

Well there's nothing Jeter does either offensively or defensively that makes him the MVP of the American League, so I've got no problem with the vote. I'd much rather he get a transcendently undeserved Gold Glove than an undeserved MVP.

so the Face of Baseball will have to console himself by curling up with Scarlett Johansson in front of a crackling fire

I think he's moved on to Jessica Biel by now.

so I hate him even more(neau)

Anybody heard anything about Jessica Biel?

This vote is far, far worse than the Howard one. There is no way in hell to justify Morneau over Jeter, Mauer, and Santana.

I never, ever thought I'd say this, but I actually feel a little bit bad for Jeter.

Damn. I don't think I had Mourneau in the top ten. I sure as f**k didn't have Frank Thomas in the top ten, and I'm an A's fan! I hate Jeter, and I would have voted him second behind Santana. Has the BBWAA lost every shred of credibility now? Do they even watch baseball games? I hate to say it, but Yankee fans have a legitimate gripe with this vote. Just baffling. I'm sure we'll see plenty of articles bashing us internet geeks and stat head types for this.

Thanksgiving comes early in NY.

how do you have him ahead of Jeter, Mauer, Hafner, Ortiz, Dye, Sizemore, Wells, Santana, Guillen, or Guerrero. How could he possibly even be in the top 5?

Because he had a great year, his team won the division, and wouldn't have without him. He anchored the offense of a division winner that had to have a power bat in his spot.

You could take Jeter off the Yankees, plug ARod in to play SS, and the Yankees wouldn't miss a beat.

Sorry, no season reached 1987 for poor MVP votes, and I'm a Blue Jay fan.

George Bell, a poor defensive LF hitting 308/352/605 while choking during that horrible last week vs Alan Trammell, a good defensive SS hitting 343/402/551 who hit well when his team needed him to in order to beat the Jays.

Andre Dawson, a decent defensive RF hitting 287/328/568 for a last place team vs Ozzie Smith, one of the best defensive SS ever hitting 303/392/383 for a first place team. There also was Tim Raines going 330/429/526 in LF for the Expos and many other quality players who should've been a mile ahead of Dawson.

Two MVP winners who had no argument at all for winning outside of RBI's.

Is Sam M. hoping for Morneau's career to crash and burn, too, now?

Strangely, no. And I think the reason is that there is no obvious person that I think the voters ripped off in this case. There were a bunch of pretty much equally deserving candidates, any of whom you could make a reasonable case for, and I don't feel like there was a particular one of them who got cheated in favor of Morneau. In the NL, I felt like they did Pujols an injustice, and Howard should pay for that.

I've calmed down, though. I don't want his career to crash and burn any more -- but I do want him to lose out on something he really deserves to make up for it. Maybe a really bad call next year that costs the Phils the NL East in favor of the Mets. Yeah, that'd do it . . . . ;-)

so I hate him even more(neau)

Just because he's a serial mow-er?

This vote is far, far worse than Howard over Pujols.

I would like to work up a Sam-like rage for it, but I really sort of expected it, so that takes the edge off.

Maybe Captain Supporter can show up, and give us a good froth-at-the-mouth post.

Mauer was left off five ballots.

Amazing.

Hilarious.

The only regret I have is that who voted for whom isn't published, so that we can't automatically discount anything written by anyone who gave Morneau a first-place vote.

It's such a terrible decision that I don't care at all. I can't remember a worse awards call in my lifetime.

I agree with #22. We all know that it took about five years for baseball fans/writers to have no idea how or why Willie Hernandez was made the MVP...ten years for George Bell, and about thirty years for Zorro Versailles. I predict that within less than six months from now, only about three or four writers will have any idea why they did this. I liken it to tulipomania.

Every writer had Morneau in their top 4. EVERY MFING ONE OF THEM!?!?!

Not even close.

0 for 2.

Thmoas finishing 4th is much more surprising than Morneau. I thought he'd do very well in the voting; but I would never have imagined that he'd end up ahead of Mauer.

Because he had a great year, his team won the division, and wouldn't have without him.

Strange - that's why I thought Mauer should have won it - who had a better year than Morneau.

You think the Phils are gonna be close enough to the Mets that even 10 bad calls will cost them the NL East? Bah!

Alas. This MVP would've looked very nice on Jeter's Hall of Fame plaque someday. According to ESPN, Morneau got 15 1st Place votes to Jeter's 12, and beat him 320 to 306 overall. Astoundingly, no one listed Morneau lower than fourth while someone managed to stick Jeter sixth. Well-played writers!

How in the hell can a guy win the Hank Aaron award and the Gold Glove at shortstop, be the most media-beloved (dare I say, overrated?) player in the game by far, and have his team make the playoffs, and not win the MVP?

This on the heels of the vote yesterday, when any idiot could see that the Phillies would have been a better team in 2006 if they had traded Howard straight up for Beltran last November and held on to Thome.

If the voters can't appreciate defense and positional value this year, they will NEVER get it!

"You could take Jeter off the Yankees, plug ARod in to play SS, and the Yankees wouldn't miss a beat."

Sure, but there'd be a lot of ground balls going through that empty spot by third base.

Because he had a great year, his team won the division, and wouldn't have without him. He anchored the offense of a division winner that had to have a power bat in his spot.

Yeah, but because he sucked so much in the earlygoing of the season, he basically had to hit like he did to help the Twins out of their hole. Mauer hit all year long. If Mauer weren't there, the Castro/Batista-playing Twins probably would've been buried.

Good news is Canadians now have 2 MVP's who were helped by dumb voters. First Larry Walker in 1997 (Coors effect) and now Morneau. Not to mention the only MVP from a Canadian team being George Bell in 1987.

Travashamockery.

This vote is far, far worse than the Howard one.

This vote is far, far worse than Howard over Pujols.

Yes and no. A more deserving winner in the NL got hosed (Pujols), so that's worse. But a less deserving winner in the AL won (Morneau), so that's worse.

Pick your poison. Both suck.

http://www.kenschuller.com/scanners.jpg

yep......horseshit.

Player/Club 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th Points

Justin Morneau, Minnesota 15 8 3 2 - - - - - - 320
Derek Jeter, New York 12 14 - 1 - 1 - - - - 306
David Ortiz, Boston - 1 11 5 7 3 1 - - - 193
Frank Thomas, Oakland - 3 4 7 7 4 1 - - - 174
Jermaine Dye, Chicago - 1 2 6 5 7 4 2 1 - 156
Joe Mauer, Minnesota - - 3 6 1 2 5 3 2 1 116
Johan Santana, Minnesota 1 - 5 1 3 3 3 1 1 3 114
Travis Hafner, Cleveland - 1 - - - 2 4 7 3 2 64
Vladimir Guerrero, Los Angeles - - - - - 2 3 4 6 - 46
Carlos Guillen, Detroit - - - - 1 - 3 3 2 3 34
Grady Sizemore, Cleveland - - - - 1 - 1 1 2 7 24
Jim Thome, Chicago - - - - - 1 3 - - - 17
Alex Rodriguez, New York - - - - 1 - - 2 - 1 13
Jason Giambi, New York - - - - - 1 - - 2 - 9
Johnny Damon, New York - - - - 1 - - - - 1 7
Justin Verlander, Detroit - - - - 1 - - - - 1 7
Ichiro Suzuki, Seattle - - - - - 1 - - 1 - 7
Joe Nathan, Minnesota - - - - - 1 - - - 1 6
Manny Ramirez, Boston - - - - - - - 1 1 1 6
Miguel Tejada, Baltimore - - - - - - - - 2 1 5
Raul Ibanez, Seattle - - - - - - - 1 - 1 4
Robinson Cano, New York - - - - - - - 1 - - 3
Paul Konerko, Chicago - - - - - - - 1 - - 3
Magglio Ordonez, Detroit - - - - - - - 1 - - 3
Vernon Wells, Toronto - - - - - - - - 1 1 3
Carl Crawford, Tampa Bay - - - - - - - - 1 - 2
Mariano Rivera, New York - - - - - - - - 1 - 2
Kenny Rogers, Detroit - - - - - - - - 1 - 2
Chien-Ming Wang, New York - - - - - - - - 1 - 2
Troy Glaus, Toronto - - - - - - - - - 1 1
Gary Matthews Jr., Texas - - - - - - - - - 1 1
A.J. Pierzynski, Chicago - - - - - - - - - 1 1
Michael Young, Texas - - - - - - - - - 1 1

Every writer had Morneau in their top 4. EVERY MFING ONE OF THEM!?!?!

Other awesomeness -

David Ortiz and Frank Thomas both finished ahead of Jermaine Dye.

Joe Mauer didn't finish in the top five.

I don't normally care about awards, but it's like they required a lobotomy before voting for AL MVP.

Because he had a great year, his team won the division, and wouldn't have without him.

Strange - that's why I thought Mauer should have won it - who had a better year than Morneau.

Which is why I would have voted for Santana!

Can anyone tell me what makes Morneau appreciably more valuable than Paul Konerko?

Nobody voted Morneau lower than fourth! I think it's safe to say that every single voter is a complete blithering idiot. I don't even give a pass to the one voter who put Santana first.

Strange - that's why I thought Mauer should have won it - who had a better year than Morneau.
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Agreed, but the question was how could you put Morneau in the top 5.

Maybe Jeter lost some points for negative intangibles for throwing A-Rod at the wolves when they were braying for him. That would be the most delicious of ironies.

A.J. Pierzynski, Chicago - - - - - - - - - 1 1

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No one had Mauer in the top 2? That's a bigger travesty than Morneau winning.

A more deserving winner in the NL got hosed (Pujols), so that's worse. But a less deserving winner in the AL won (Morneau), so that's worse.

Pujols (or Beltran) should have won, but at least Howard hit 58 jacks. Morneau's season wasn't even that great.

Can anyone tell me what makes Morneau appreciably more valuable than Paul Konerko?

Defense! (Because you know they considered it)

You could take Jeter off the Yankees, plug ARod in to play SS, and the Yankees wouldn't miss a beat.

Jeter's relative fungibility with the prior year's MVP isn't a particularly convincing argument against his qualifications to be this year's MVP.

Let's try this instead:

You could take Jeter off the Yankees, plug Morneau in to play SS, and the Yankees wouldn't miss a beat.

Doesn't work quite as well.

Ridiculous.

It's clear that the writers take different approaches to the Cy Young and the MVP votes. With the Cy, they usually vote for who they think is simply the best pitcher (although they often get that wrong). With the MVP, they vote for the good/great player who was most "valuable" to his team -- this means more votes go to players on teams that barely make it into the playoffs or even just miss making it into the playoffs, because those teams' stars have more impact. In both cases this year, they picked the sluggers who got hot at the same time as their teams (although Howard had a much, much better year). I bet that if the Yankees had slunk into the playoffs with 88 wins, Jeter would have walked away with the trophy. Sometimes I think half the sportswriters out there sleep through the first three months.

it's like they required a lobotomy before voting for AL MVP.

that's already a prerequisite for being a baseball writer

Can anyone tell me what makes Morneau appreciably more valuable than Paul Konerko?

I was just thinking exactly the same thing. Their stat lines are virtually identical.

My disgust that Mauer didn't get it outweighs the slight cheer I feel at seeing Jeter denied. I wouldn't have minded Jeter over Mauer, but this...

And I think the reason is that there is no obvious person that I think the voters ripped off in this case.

Well, the 2nd place finisher was but 14 points behind and 113 points ahead of 3rd place, so it seems that someone was ripped off.

Mauer didn't get any 1st place votes and finished 6th. Strange that there wasn't more of an even split on Mauer/Morneau among those inclined towards the Twins.

One of the worst votes in history. And this has to be the worst year in the history of the MVP Award. For both leagues' awards to go so obviously and completely wrong is unprecedented. Isn't it?

Its been said before, but 87 was definitely worse. Dawson was a worse choice than Morneau, and Bell was worse than Howard. Both by a lot.

That said, I agree that Howard was defensible but wrong, and Morneau is indefensible.

Sometimes I think half the sportswriters out there sleep through the first three months.

Well, hell. All you have to do is read their columns to know that's true.

Can someone give me a good argument in 100 words or less that Win Probability is crap, so I can use it and stop the ####### harping that Ortiz got screwed on SOSH?

Hell Yeah.

Faith in the cosmos restored.

Yeah, yeah, I don't know the guy, but Jeter just seems to be the most profound douche bag of douche bags. The way he handled the Huckaby and ARod situations made him come off as a supreme jerk. So, I'm raising my glass to the voters today. Way to do a shitty job guys!

2 thoughts:

1. Congrats to Morneau! (First Canadian to win the AL MVP, no?)

2. I only watched maybe 40 Twins games this year (Thank you Extra Innings), and they were almost all in June-September, but it seemed that in every damn game, Morneau got a huge hit, or drove in a huge run, and the Twinkies won all the damn time. I had (have?) no idea what his stats line was at the end of the season, but maybe the BBWAA were watching the same games that I was. Frankly, I don't think that they were that off base.

He seemed to carry that team for 3 months when they went from afterthoughts to the playoffs.

I'm sure that Jeter is very deserving, but the thought that Morneau wasn't one of the top 20!!! players in the AL is staggering to me. Huh. Playing Rauseo's part.

What's amazing is that Jeter manages to be both massively overrated and massively underrated at the same time. Is there any other player than can make this claim? I thought maybe Pete Rose but he was probably underrated in the beginning of his career and then overrated late in his career, not both at the same time like Jeter. Personally, I can't think of anyone else.

Also, Jeter and Mauer's seasons were similar but Jeter played a lot more which gives him the edge. Although it seems like the writers were smart enough to figure that out -- although it's probably just a coincidence.

Nobody voted Morneau lower than fourth! I think it's safe to say that every single voter is a complete blithering idiot.

That's what also struck me first while looking at the ballot tallies. Wow, they are dumb.

Count me in the group that thinks that although both votes suck, this one is far worse than the Howard choice in the NL. Realistically, the NL choice was between Howard and Pujols -- a few folks mentioned Beltran, but he certainly didn't garner anywhere near the press as the others.

Here, OTOH, one can definitely make the case that Morneau isn't even the MVP on his own team . . . and possibly isn't even 2nd on his own team either. Frankly, I'm baffled on how he deserved to get anything over a 5th place vote, let alone win the darned thing.

This has to be considered a complete & total repudiation of Tim McCarver more than anything, doesn't it?

At least the MVJ voters got it right.

Can anyone tell me what makes Morneau appreciably more valuable than Paul Konerko?

I was just thinking exactly the same thing. Their stat lines are virtually identical.


Player 1: 566 AB / 30 2b / 35 HR / 113 RBI / .313 BA / .381 OBP / .551 SLUG / .932 OPS / 135 OPS+

Player 2: 592 AB / 37 2b / 34 HR / 130 RBI / .321 BA / .375 OBP / .559 SLUG / .934 OPS / 140 OPS+

Both are First Baseman from 90+ win teams who were the 3rd best players on their team. Player 1 won the MVP with 320 pts, the other received 3 points in the MVP race.

Mauer didn't get any 1st place votes and finished 6th. Strange that there wasn't more of an even split on Mauer/Morneau among those inclined towards the Twins.

The Minnesota sports media pretty much agreed to unanimously support Morneau back in September. There seemed to be a recognition that Mauer was more deserving, but they thought that Morneau had a better shot at the award.

Basically, Twins fans and local media were betting that the voters were stupid, which turned out to be an excellent bet.

RE #67:

You do realize that you also come off as a supreme jerk with a post like this, don't you? "I don't know the guy, but I irrationally despise him and wish him ill." Yep, makes you seem like a real prince.

I just barfed in my mouth and swallowed it! And to think, I am a Jeter-detracter! I can't imagine what I would have done if I were a Jeter fanboy: Barf in my mouth, gargle and then felch it out of a discarded filthy sock taken out of a dumpster behind a run-down restuarant in Bedford Stuyvessant, perhaps!?!

God this thread is pointless.

"1. Congrats to Morneau! (First Canadian to win the AL MVP, no?)"

Nope - Larry Walker.

Larry Walker?

The AL MVP?

Are you sure?

</Plaschke>

Good news is Canadians now have 2 MVP's who were helped by dumb voters. First Larry Walker in 1997 (Coors effect) and now Morneau. Not to mention the only MVP from a Canadian team being George Bell in 1987.

Walker's award wasn't in the same ballpark of badness as Morneau's or Bell's. Even with the Coors effect, Walker had a tremendous season. Piazza should have won, but Walker wasn't a ridiculous choice (similar to Howard over Pujols).

IBAs vs. BBWAAs
Morneau 7th vs 1st
Thomas 8th vs. 4th
Mauer 2nd vs 6th
Santana 3rd vs. 7th
Hafner 5th vs 8th
Guerrero 12th vs. 9th
M Ramirez 11th vs 19th
Tejada 13th vs 20th
Halladay 15th vs. No Votes
Vernon Wells 16th vs 25th
Jason Giambi 25th vs 14th

What's amazing is that Jeter manages to be both massively overrated and massively underrated at the same time. Is there any other player than can make this claim?

It seems to me that this really isn't all that uncommon. I think it was true of Griffey when he was at his peak. And A-Rod got the second most votes for most overrated in that player survey.

Obviously the MVP award must weight the raw score with an "intangibles" factor.

God this thread is pointless.

Well, sure, but if we were the type of people who could convince themselves not to care about this trivia, then we wouldn't be lurking a site such as this. We'd be reading books or flossing or working on our Presto Magix underwater scene or something.

Damn Canadians.

It's such a terrible decision that I don't care at all. I can't remember a worse awards call in my lifetime.

Forrest Gump over Pulp Fiction and The Shawshank Redemption?

Forrest Gump over Pulp Fiction and The Shawshank Redemption?

Touche.

#76 -

1. Ask me if I give a ####
2. Not knowing the guy doesn't mean it's irrational to despise him. There are a lot of people I don't know whom it is rational to despise.
3. Wishing him ill is a bit of hyperbole. I'm glad he didn't win the MVP vote. I didn't wish that he be run over by a bus.
4. Ask me if I give a ####
5. Ask me if I give a ####

Can someone give me a good argument in 100 words or less that Win Probability is crap, so I can use it and stop the ####### harping that Ortiz got screwed on SOSH?

Just paste everything DCA said in this thread.

Damn Canadians

First Nash, now Morneau. Is Mike Vanderjagt going to win the NFL MVP award?

Forrest Gump over Pulp Fiction and The Shawshank Redemption?

Well, if we want to play the tv or movie awful award game, we'll be here even longer.

Ex. Crash, The West Wing, The Wire not even getting nominated, etc.

How many times do the writers have to be wrong about things before you guys stop caring about this stuff?

to my #74. Player 2 on the MVP, not Player 1. I'm an idiot.

Also, Jeter and Mauer's seasons were similar but Jeter played a lot more which gives him the edge.

Except Mauer plays the most demanding position on the diamond at a Gold Glove level while Jeter is a below average SS. And Mauer won the batting title. By our standards, it would be almost impossible to award a C MVP. At BP, I voted Mauer-Jeter-Guillen. I think I had Morneau 10th.

My best friend is a Yankees fan, and he loves to needle me about my all-time favourite player getting hosed in '87. Now he knows how I feel. Except 87 was an even worse pick (how they can award it to someone choking down the stretch in DIRECT head to head competition with the real MVP was staggering), and of course, Jetes is an HOF lock while Trammell has almost no chance.

Fox is airing a new special.

Derek Jeter, in his own words.

"If I had won the MVP, this is how I would have done it."

Forgon the Conclusion,

Just wondering, do you give a ####?

I don't really care all that much who wins the AL MVP, or any of the post season awards anymore. I mean, whats the point? (Ok...it didn't suck that Webb got recognized, but all thats going to do is cost the D backs money, it doesn't make him a better pitcher)

It's just depressing that after 25 years of revolutionary, groundbreaking work in the field of player analysis that the people with the biggest voice and most influence still think RBI's are the most important thing to look at when deciding who is best or the most valuable. And they are helping to perpetuate the lack of true understanding, as yet another generation of fans comes online and assumes these guys know what they are talking about, and therefore base THEIR valuation methods on the same shallow, ill thought out criteria.

We still have alot of work to do.

How many times do the writers have to be wrong about things before you guys stop caring about this stuff?

I just think that the depths of stupidity to which they descend is absolutely fascinating.

'your standards,' sorry.