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Tuesday, November 21, 2006

Star Tribune: Morneau Named MVP

A twincredibly bad decision by the voters to choose the Doctor over the Chairman or the Captain.

WillYoung Posted: November 21, 2006 at 07:07 PM | 237 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   101. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: November 21, 2006 at 07:56 PM (#2243186)
RE #89:

Thanks for proving that you're a ########. I wasn't entirely sure after #67, but you've removed all doubt.
   102. Rants Mulliniks Posted: November 21, 2006 at 07:56 PM (#2243187)
As a fellow Canadian I'm happy for Morneau, but this is completely retarded. Almost as retarded as Raul Ibanez finishing ahead of Vernon Wells. And why does everyone think Morneau had such an awesome second half? He slugged UNDER .500 ONLY HIT 6 GD HOMERS AFTER THE END OF JULY!!!!!
   103. rory_b_bellows Posted: November 21, 2006 at 07:57 PM (#2243189)
I wonder if Jeter's problem is that the writers so focus on his intangibles (America's captain, clutch hitting, etc.) that they don't look at his numbers? So when his intangibles take a hit after his poor handling of the A-Rod situation, the writers hold that against him more than his great numbers?

Also, could jealousy be the reason for him finishing 2nd? Writers figure he gets enough love from everyone they vote for some other player out of spite? Which I guess would be kind of funny since his jealousy of A-Rod seems to have hurt him.
   104. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:00 PM (#2243193)
Except Mauer plays the most demanding position on the diamond ...

This has been dissected in great detail in numerous previous threads, but the fact is that Mauer was out of the lineup a lot even by typical catcher standards, and his playing time was way short of MVP-winning catcher season standards.
   105. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:00 PM (#2243194)


Because he had a great year, his team won the division, and wouldn't have without him. He anchored the offense of a division winner that had to have a power bat in his spot.


Seems like that applies to Pujols, even moreso. Yet the award in his league went to the league leader in HR and RBI, a defensive zero who smashed his club's HR record and was generally considered the cluchest player in the league.

But in the AL, the league leader in HR and RBI, a defensive zero who smashed his club's HR record and is considered the clutchest player in the league lost to the guy who had a great year, his team won the division, and wouldn't have without him. He anchored the offense of a division winner that had to have a power bat in his spot

Huh?
   106. John Northey Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:01 PM (#2243196)
OK, dumb AL MVP votes...
2001 - Ichiro! with an 838 OPS vs shortstops A-Rod with a 1.021, Jeter with a .857, and Tejada with an 802. That is just one position vs Ichiro. At second we had Robbie Alomar had a 956 OPS, and Bret Boone a 950. For pure hitters you have Giambi (1.137), Thome (1.040), and Manny Ramirez (1.014). Need I go on? 8 guys who could easily be argued to be better than the winner.

1998 - Juan Gonzalez 996 OPS vs SS Garciaparra (946), Jeter (865), A-Rod (920 and 9th place). OF Ken Griffey 976, Bernie Williams 997, Albert Belle 1.054. Roger Clemens winning the pitchers triple crown. More exist for that year I'm sure too.

1996 - Juan Gonzalez 1.011 vs SS A-Rod 1.045 and 6 other guys with a 1000 OPS who were probably just as good defensively as Gonzo.

The AL has a dumb MVP vote on a regular basis. To be surprised by it is like being surprised that the arctic is cold or that Brazil is hot.
   107. Sam M. Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:01 PM (#2243197)
See, now. # 96 proves this thread is NOT pointless.

Brilliant.
   108. Schtoopo Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:02 PM (#2243198)
CFiJ,

Yes, actually I do give a ####. I don't give a #### though.
   109. CFiJ Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:03 PM (#2243199)
Also, could jealousy be the reason for him finishing 2nd? Writers figure he gets enough love from everyone they vote for some other player out of spite? Which I guess would be kind of funny since his jealousy of A-Rod seems to have hurt him.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a case of game theory gone amok. A few too many writers thinking, "Everybody will vote for Jeter and he'll probably get it. I'll be the maverick and vote for Morneau."
   110. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:03 PM (#2243200)
Igno, I've seen the earlier threads. I'm willing to dock Mauer a bit for that, but he still had a phenomenal season offensively and defensively to help his team make the playoffs, and that's what got him my vote. I think Jeter would have been a very worthy choice. Morneau is just dumb.
   111. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:04 PM (#2243201)
Did my post get eaten?
   112. Guapo Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:06 PM (#2243204)
It's such a terrible decision that I don't care at all. I can't remember a worse awards call in my lifetime.

Christopher Cross, Grammy for Album of the Year, 1981
   113. Law Boy Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:06 PM (#2243205)
If you're going to choose a Twin, it should have been Santana.
   114. sunnyday2 Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:07 PM (#2243207)
The two issues with MVP voting are:

1. Basically it is the Best Story Award, I mean it is chosen by people who write stories...

2. It is most assuredly NOT (as far as the voters, apparently, are concerned) an award for the best player

Now if we could just fix these two misconceptions...to fix the first, the writers MUST be relieved of this duty. And to fix the second, well, all it would take would be to abolish the MVP award, and to initiate something called the Best ####### Player award. I mean, would that be so hard?
   115. . Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:07 PM (#2243208)
Forrest Gump over Pulp Fiction and The Shawshank Redemption?

1. Dances with Wolves over Goodfellas

2. George Bell over Alan Trammell, a legitimate Gold Glove shortstop, in 1987.
   116. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:09 PM (#2243210)
I would like to know Steven A. Smith's take on this.
   117. Rants Mulliniks Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:10 PM (#2243211)
RE: 104 - He caught 120 games, which isn't as much as any of the other MVP catchers in the last 60 years, but he played 140 games as an offensive star, which is pretty much the same thing total contribution when you factor in his great defense.
   118. greenback used to say live and let live Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:10 PM (#2243212)
How many times do the writers have to be wrong about things before you guys stop caring about this stuff?

Getting upset over BBWAA idiocy is like getting upset over a Neifi Perez out. You know it's coming, but every instance is still an unpleasant experience.
   119. Kyle S Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:11 PM (#2243213)
   Player Team    1  2  3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 Tot
J Morneau, MIN   15  8  3 2 - - - - - - 320
D   Jeter, NYA   12 14  - 1 - 1 - - - - 306
D   Ortiz, BOS    -  1 11 5 7 3 1 - - - 193
F  Thomas, OAK    -  3  4 7 7 4 1 - - - 174
J     Dye, CHA    -  1  2 6 5 7 4 2 1 - 156
J   Mauer, MIN    -  -  3 6 1 2 5 3 2 1 116
J Santana, MIN    1  -  5 1 3 3 3 1 1 3 114
T  Hafner, CLE    -  1  - - - 2 4 7 3 2  64
VGuerrero, LAA    -  -  - - - 2 3 4 6 -  46
C Guillen, DET    -  -  - - 1 - 3 3 2 3  34
GSizemore, CLE    -  -  - - 1 - 1 1 2 7  24
J   Thome, CHA    -  -  - - - 1 3 - - -  17
ARodriguz, NYY    -  -  - - 1 - - 2 - 1  13
J  Giambi, NYA    -  -  - - - 1 - - 2 -   9
J   Damon, NYA    -  -  - - 1 - - - - 1   7
JVerlandr, DET    -  -  - - 1 - - - - 1   7
I  Suzuki, SEA    -  -  - - - 1 - - 1 -   7
J  Nathan, MIN    -  -  - - - 1 - - - 1   6
M Ramirez, BOS    -  -  - - - - - 1 1 1   6
M  Tejada, BAL    -  -  - - - - - - 2 1   5
R  Ibanez, SEA    -  -  - - - - - 1 - 1   4
R    Cano, NYA    -  -  - - - - - 1 - -   3
P Konerko, CHA    -  -  - - - - - 1 - -   3
M Ordonez, DET    -  -  - - - - - 1 - -   3
V   Wells, TOR    -  -  - - - - - - 1 1   3
CCrawford, TBD    -  -  - - - - - - 1 -   2
M  Rivera, NYA    -  -  - - - - - - 1 -   2
K  Rogers, DET    -  -  - - - - - - 1 -   2
C    Wang, NYA    -  -  - - - - - - 1 -   2
T   Glaus, TOR    -  -  - - - - - - - 1   1
GMtthwsJr, TEX    -  -  - - - - - - - 1   1
APrzynski, CHA    -  -  - - - - - - - 1   1
M   Young, TEX    -  -  - - - - - - - 1   1
   120. My guest will be Jermaine Allensworth Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:12 PM (#2243214)
2. George Bell over Alan Trammell, a legitimate Gold Glove shortstop, in 1987.


What's more insane about that vote is that Wade Boggs went .363/.461/.588 in 1987, won the batting title, and finished ninth.
   121. . . . . . . Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:12 PM (#2243215)
WPA, American League, 2006

1. David Ortiz: 8.04
2. Derek Jeter: 5.98
3. Jermaine Dye: 5.14
4: Justin Morneau: 4.46
5: Travis Hafner: 4.44
6: Jason Giambi: 4.18
7: Manny Ramirez: 4.03
   122. . Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:13 PM (#2243216)
My best friend is a Yankees fan, and he loves to needle me about my all-time favourite player getting hosed in '87. Now he knows how I feel. Except 87 was an even worse pick (how they can award it to someone choking down the stretch in DIRECT head to head competition with the real MVP was staggering), and of course, Jetes is an HOF lock while Trammell has almost no chance.

You got a big ally here. Trammell's vote count in HOF voting is a massive injustice.
   123. sunnyday2 Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:13 PM (#2243217)
There are two fundamental problems with the MVP award.

1. The voters think that it is quite precisely NOT an award for the best player. It is something that is meant to be mind ###### endlessly by, for and of people who mind #### for a living.

2. And what it IS, then, is the best story award, awarded by people who write stories.

In order to fix the MVP award, the writers clearly need to be relieved of the duty of awarding it. They have a clear professional conflict of interest which renders them constitutionally incapable of doing the job. And maybe, just maybe, the MVP award should just be abolished, blown up, and replaced by something called the Best Player award. Then maybe there would be a chance.
   124. The Original SJ Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:14 PM (#2243218)
For those of you who say nothing these votes don't matter, i disagree. When it comes time to vote for the HOF, this will be looked at, "oh, he won an MVP"
   125. My guest will be Jermaine Allensworth Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:14 PM (#2243219)
Wow. Frank Thomas got more second-place votes than David Ortiz.
   126. talbright Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:16 PM (#2243221)
current poll on ESPN.com


1) Should Justin Morneau have won the AL MVP award?

50.9% Yes
49.1% No

2) Should Ryan Howard have won the NL MVP award?

63.8% Yes
36.2% No

Total Votes: 2,110
   127. The Ghost of Sox Fans Past Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:16 PM (#2243223)
Basically it is the Best Story Award, I mean it is chosen by people who write stories...

There is something to that, all right. Maybe the promotions dcepartment at MLB gets to jiggle the votes.

Knowing how many of the voters are old school (non-sabermetric), we can hope for a more logical result the future, but don't bet a lot on it.

The 1-through-10 ranking leaves room for finaging as well. Think Mauer is the biggest rival to your favorite? Leave him off your ballot entirely.

Boston.com sent out an email announcing the award. Though the text had it right, they had Mauer's name in the subject line.
   128. sunnyday2 Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:17 PM (#2243225)
Re #114 and #123, I have never before had a post hang up in the ozone for a full 10 minutes!
   129. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:18 PM (#2243226)
1. The voters think that it is quite precisely NOT an award for the best player. It is something that is meant to be mind ###### endlessly by, for and of people who mind #### for a living.

2. And what it IS, then, is the best story award, awarded by people who write stories.


Morneau wasn't even the best story, not even close.

I'm not one who believes the MVP is or should be a "best player" award, but there's no way that a sentient creature should come to the conclusion that Morneau is MVP, no matter what their definition of "MVP" really is.
   130. Shredder Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:19 PM (#2243227)
1. The voters think that it is quite precisely NOT an award for the best player. It is something that is meant to be mind ###### endlessly by, for and of people who mind #### for a living.

Well, this is really THE problem. No matter who votes, people are going to disagree with them, and assuming they all thought the award was for the same thing, there would be legitimate disagreements. But when the people voting can't even agree on the criteria, you're always going to end up with what a lot of people think are crazy results. This is one of the reasons I generally don't care who wins awards or who goes to the hall of fame.
   131. shaftr Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:21 PM (#2243232)
1976: Rocky won Best Picture over Taxi Driver, All the Presidents Men & Network.
   132. pkb33 Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:22 PM (#2243233)
Morneau was on my fantasy team and it won the league this year. Jeter was on a different team which didn't win this year.

That's about as good an explanation for him winning as anything else, right? Because I can't come up with a real-baseball explanation that makes any sense.
   133. J. Cross Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:24 PM (#2243234)
For those of you who say nothing these votes don't matter, i disagree. When it comes time to vote for the HOF, this will be looked at, "oh, he won an MVP"

SJ, I'd also argue that who gets into the HOF doesn't matter.
   134. Shohei Brotani (formerly LA Hombre) Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:27 PM (#2243235)
Christopher Cross, Grammy for Album of the Year, 1981

Dude. "Sailing" was my first favorite song. I was nine years old.

Vlad, Manny Ramirez and A-Rod all have streaks of nine consecutive seasons with at least one MVP ballot appearance. Just out of curiosity, I looked up a few other players. Mays went 13 straight seasons, Mantle had one of 11. Rose, 9. Dimaggio had 13, would've had 16 but for WWII.

Hank Aaron showed up on a ballot for 19 consecutive seasons. If not for WWII and Korea, Ted Williams would probably have had 22.
   135. 185/456(GGC) Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:31 PM (#2243239)
Mike and the Mad Dog were talking with NHL Commish Gary Bettman when I heard them . WEEI's guys are talking more about Ortiz.
   136. . Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:31 PM (#2243240)
For those of you who say nothing these votes don't matter, i disagree. When it comes time to vote for the HOF, this will be looked at, "oh, he won an MVP"

Which is why Tram really needed the MVP he had stolen from him. You slap that on his resume and his HOF vote goes way up.
   137. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:32 PM (#2243243)
SJ, will Jeter miss out on the HOF? Not bloody likely...
   138. bibigon Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:32 PM (#2243244)
Ok - defense Morneau as MVP coming up. Note - I don't buy this defense, but I'm trying to come up with a baseball explanation...

Morneau was 4th in WPA, which does a pretty good job of taking into account clutch performances. That's what the MVP is about by and large. It's also about leading your team into the playoffs, since there's no prize for missing the playoffs by one game instead of by fourty. Of the guys ahead of him, David Ortiz and Jermaine Dye are out, since their performances didn't lead to the playoffs, so they're of questionable value. The Red Sox and White Sox would have won as many playoff berths without these two as they did with them.

So Jeter. Well, by the same reasoning as we don't vote for guys on teams that don't make the playoffs, we shouldn't be voting for guys like Jeter, who are on teams that would have made the playoffs if they'd dropped dead on the first day of the season too. The Yankees took that division by 10 games - Derek Jeter was not a 10 game above replacement player. He had no marginal value. The Yankees would have won exactly as many playoff berths without him as with him.

Which brings us to Morneau. He was worth just enough wins to push the Twins over the top. Without him, the White Sox probably win that division and Jermaine Dye is your MVP. With him, they made the playoffs. Screw Johan Santana and Joe Mauer. If they wanted the damn MVP so bad, they'd have had more WPA point.

/end sophistry.
   139. Guapo Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:33 PM (#2243247)
Dude. "Sailing" was my first favorite song. I was nine years old.

OK, um, Henry Kissinger, Nobel Peace Prize, 1973.
   140. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:34 PM (#2243248)
Berra and Bonds had 15
   141. Shredder Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:35 PM (#2243249)

SJ, I'd also argue that who gets into the HOF doesn't matter.


Count me in on that as well.
   142. Sexy Lizard Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:36 PM (#2243250)
This vote killed Robert Altman. The bastards.
   143. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:38 PM (#2243254)
/end sophistry.


No kidding. I can't think of a more contrived defense.

1 - Pick an obscure stat, one in which the only players ahead of the subject play on teams either slightly worse or significantly better than the subject's.

2 - ???

3 - MVP!!
   144. JJ1986 Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:39 PM (#2243255)
I think that Joe Nathan had a higher WPA than Morneau.
   145. bibigon Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:41 PM (#2243257)
Contrived? Sure. Defensible? I think so.
   146. Captain Supporter Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:45 PM (#2243258)
Maybe Captain Supporter can show up, and give us a good froth-at-the-mouth post.


Well, Srul, I am sorry to disappoint you, but I'm actually pretty indifferent to this. I'd like to have seen Jeter win, but I never had any confidence in the voters anyhow. Like the Captain, I'm all about championships, not awards. Let Little Alex have the awards.

For what its worth, I think the award should have gone to either Mauer or Jeter. Mauer's being 6th is far more ridiculous than Jeter's being second.

In terms of the HOF vote, it does not matter. Derek is going to the Hall of Fame. The only question is on what ballot.
   147. Loren F. Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:45 PM (#2243259)
Re: Post 143. Shouldn't Step 2 be "A miracle occurs"?

Besides, I'd eat my hat if as many as three voters could tell me what WPA is without mentioning the New Deal.
   148. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:47 PM (#2243261)
Contrived? Sure. Defensible? I think so.


The problem with that, is that MVPs can then only come from teams which barely make the playoffs, which is what, 1 or 2 every year.

And to extend the sophistry even further, what about slots 2-10 on the ballot? Are they fundamentally different from #1? Or can those players come from disallowed teams? If so, why?
   149. TVerik - Dr. Velocity Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:53 PM (#2243263)
This has to be considered a complete & total repudiation of Tim McCarver more than anything, doesn't it?

Were the 2006 general election votes a repudiation of Rush Limbaugh personally?
   150. G A Delgado Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:57 PM (#2243264)
Wouldn't it be eisier if the voters just voted who they want to win? not vote like

Player 1st 2nd 3rd
Jeets *
Mauer *
Dye *

Just send them a card so they can send back saying.

I___________________, am voting for AL MVP; that vote goes to_____________.

Seems so much eisier.
   151. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:57 PM (#2243265)
Lee Marvin, Cat Ballou over Rod Steiger, Pawnbroker

Were the 2006 general election votes a repudiation of Rush Limbaugh personally?

just his limp dick
   152. Don Guillote (The Cheat) Posted: November 21, 2006 at 08:58 PM (#2243267)
I voted for the terrorists. My conscience is clean.
   153. haven Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:00 PM (#2243268)
One thing about Morneau winning.... It should make my ride home with Mike and the Mad Dog rather interesting.
   154. bibigon Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:03 PM (#2243271)
The problem with that, is that MVPs can then only come from teams which barely make the playoffs, which is what, 1 or 2 every year.


I'm fine with that.

And to extend the sophistry even further, what about slots 2-10 on the ballot? Are they fundamentally different from #1? Or can those players come from disallowed teams? If so, why?


Shutup.
   155. ??'s Biggest Fan! Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:04 PM (#2243273)
Well, this vote makes the Yankees' first round exit easier to swallow. If the Twins couldn't beat the Tigers with the Cy Young winner and the league MVP in their lineup, what chance did my scrappy little team of overachievers had of beating this year's AL pennant winner?
   156. TerpNats Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:08 PM (#2243275)
Well, now Yankee fans know how we in Washington felt last week when Ryan Zimmerman didn't win NL Rookie of the Year.
   157. Boots Day Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:08 PM (#2243276)
You could look at it like this:

Justin Morneau was the third-best player on his own team.

Justin Morneau was roughly as good as Paul Konerko, who was the third-best player on the White Sox, a team that was considered to have a disappointing year.

Justin Morneau was not as good as Travis Hafner, who was the second-best player on the Indians, a team that had a very disappointing year.

Justin Morneau was not as valuable as Alex Rodriguez, who was widely considered to have a down year, if not a disastrous one.

Justin Morneau was not as valuable as Vladimir Guerrero, who did not receive a single vote in the Top Five.

And on and on.
   158. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:10 PM (#2243277)
This vote is far, far worse than the Howard one.

This vote is far, far worse than Howard over Pujols.


Yes and no. A more deserving winner in the NL got hosed (Pujols), so that's worse. But a less deserving winner in the AL won (Morneau), so that's worse.

Pick your poison. Both suck.
I know where you're going with that, Sam, but it doesn't make any sense. There's no (for lack of a better term) Law of Conservation of Deservingness.

Your logic, essentially, is that if there are two (league leading) 1.000 OPS players beaten by a .600 OPS player, that's not as bad as a (league leading) .900 OPS player being beaten by a .700 OPS player, because we can clearly tell that the .900 OPS player should have won, whereas we don't know which of the two 1.000 OPS players should have won. But that's backwards. If anything, it's twice as bad, because there were two options better.
   159. Cutter Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:16 PM (#2243280)
Mike Lupica disease is spreading. Get your vaccine quick.
   160. BrianSabeanRuinedMyChildhood Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:17 PM (#2243281)
Players who should have won the MVP ahead of Morneau (no particular order)

1) Jermaine Dye
2) Derek Jeter
3) Johan Santana
4) David Ortiz
5) Jim Thome
6) Travis Hafner
7) Grady Sizemore
8) Vernon Wells
9) Joe Mauer
10) Manny Ramirez (could have used about 50 more AB)
11) Carlos Guillen
12) Vladimir Guerrero

Other guys you could argue:
13) Miguel Tejada
14) Jason Giambi
15) Paul Konerko
16) Alex Rodriguez
17) Robinson Cano
18) Jorge Posada

Anyone else?

This guy had a great season, but come on; this is ridiculous.
   161. Craig in MN Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:19 PM (#2243283)
Well, this vote makes the Yankees' first round exit easier to swallow. If the Twins couldn't beat the Tigers with the Cy Young winner and the league MVP in their lineup, what chance did my scrappy little team of overachievers had of beating this year's AL pennant winner?

You forgot the mention the batting champion, executive of the year, and 2nd best manager.
   162. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:20 PM (#2243284)
On the one hand, I'm disappointed because Morneau didn't deserve the award.

On the other hand, I'm pleased, because Jeter didn't deserve the award either.
   163. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:35 PM (#2243292)
WRONG!
   164. Zack F Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:35 PM (#2243293)
I always thought the '99 AL MVP was the dumbest selection by the voters in recent memory...sorry, although there are at least 5 players who are clearly more deserving than Morneau, this year doesn't compare to that miscarraige of justice.
   165. Mark Edward Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:37 PM (#2243294)
I figure, since an undeserving Canadian won the MVP, an undeserving American should win the Hart Trophy. Fair's fair.

Jamie Langenbrunner for the Hart!
   166. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:40 PM (#2243295)
Yes, actually I do give a ####. I don't give a #### though.

Why is the cybernanny bleeping out "hoot" and "tinker's cuss"?
   167. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:41 PM (#2243297)
I always thought the '99 AL MVP was the dumbest selection by the voters in recent memory...sorry, although there are at least 5 players who are clearly more deserving than Morneau, this year doesn't compare to that miscarraige of justice.

This is way, way worse than Ivan Rodriguez' MVP. There are at least ten players clearly more deserving than Morneau.
   168. Fridas Boss Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:45 PM (#2243300)
Just out of curiosity, why is there an expectation for the MVP to be "correct" when it is named by voting conducted by a small sample of an extremely heterogenous group of writers with rooting interests and biases and as many definitions of what an MVP is as there are voters?
   169. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:47 PM (#2243303)
This should be the end of any talk about teammates 'splitting the vote'. If it didn't happen with Morneau-Mauer-Santana, then it's not going to happen.
   170. cardsfanboy Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:48 PM (#2243304)
Jethro Tull over Metallica Best hardrock/heavy metal performance.


Ok, being a guy who doesn't care for Jeter, I have to agree with pretty much everyone on here, there is no way that I can imagine Morneu being more valuable than Jeter. As mentioned, he was the third best player on his own team. I don't think Jeter fans can have the righteous indignation that a Cardinal fan has, but Mauer, Jeter and fans of others (see post 160) can be reasonably upset. Is this the worse voting year in baseball history? as mentioned 87 was pretty bad, I mean they did get the al cy young right, they probably got the nl cy young right(although number two is a wtf?)

At least with howard we are going to look back in ten years and see a great season as an argument, not really sure what people are going to be thinkin ten years about this vote.
   171. Sam M. Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:50 PM (#2243305)
Your logic, essentially, is that if there are two (league leading) 1.000 OPS players beaten by a .600 OPS player, that's not as bad as a (league leading) .900 OPS player being beaten by a .700 OPS player, because we can clearly tell that the .900 OPS player should have won, whereas we don't know which of the two 1.000 OPS players should have won. But that's backwards. If anything, it's twice as bad, because there were two options better.

Not quite, David. My logic is that if there is one league-leading 1.000 OPS player beaten by an .800 OPS player, that is worse than three .900 OPS players being beaten by a .700 OPS player. Even though the .700 OPS player (Morneau) is worse than the .800 OPS player (Howard) -- and thus a "worse" MVP choice -- the injustice isn't as great, because the guys who did NOT win weren't as deserving, for two reasons. First, they weren't as clear-cut. And second, they weren't as good. NONE of the AL candidates were as clear-cut, or as good, as Pujols. Thus, the miscarriage of justice was greater in the NL, even though Howard had a better season than Morneau.
   172. AndrewJ Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:51 PM (#2243306)
Ryan Howard wasn't my first choice for MVP either, and I'm a Phillies fan. But it's not indefensible -- Howard did step up after Abreu was traded (when the local media had thrown in the towel on the rest of the season) and keep the Phils in contention, he had excellent OPS+ numbers, the Phillies did have a better regular season record than the Cardinals... and I can see where the NL beat writers post-Bonds just might select a guy who hit 58 homers and who, as far as they know, isn't doing 'roids.
   173. Benji Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:51 PM (#2243307)
Bad call. This was Jeter's year.
   174. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:53 PM (#2243309)
I always thought the '99 AL MVP was the dumbest selection by the voters in recent memory...sorry, although there are at least 5 players who are clearly more deserving than Morneau, this year doesn't compare to that miscarraige of justice.

I don't agree...while I would have voted for Pedro, at least w/IRod there's a plausible argument that he deserved the award because of his defense. 650 PAs as a gold glove catcher makes up for a lot of offensive shortcomings. I'm not saying he was better than Pedro, Jeter, et al, but I don't think it was a crazy selection. By contrast, there's simply no plausible argument for voting for Morneau over most of the other guys in the top 10.
   175. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:54 PM (#2243310)
This should be the end of any talk about teammates 'splitting the vote'. If it didn't happen with Morneau-Mauer-Santana, then it's not going to happen.
The talk is completely illogical to begin with. I don't mean it's illogical normatively; I mean it's illogical descriptively. It makes no sense to think that it could happen.

For teammates to split the vote, what that means is that if there were no Mauer, that his votes would go to Morneau instead. (As opposed, say, to going to Jeter.) But the only way that makes sense is if there are voters out there who start by picking the team from which the MVP will come, and then pick the player to vote for. As idiotic as voters are, there's no reason to believe they ever are <u>that</u> nonsensical. They use the teams to narrow down the universe of possibilities, of course, but they don't first decide what team to give their votes to, and then decide what player.

(Actually, they decide what player to give their votes to, and then desperately search for some justification for that decision.)
   176. Zack F Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:57 PM (#2243314)
This is way, way worse than Ivan Rodriguez' MVP. There are at least ten players clearly more deserving than Morneau.


There are certainly plenty of players more deserving than Morneau, I'm not arguing with that. But the difference between the most deserving - Jeter, maybe? - and the winner is a lot smaller than it was in '99, when you had Pedro with one of the best seasons a pitcher has ever had losing because of one of the most mindbogglingly foolish voters ever, Jeter, who had a far better year than he did this year, Manny (165 RBIs), plus years from Alomar and Nomar that were just as good as Pudge. Since no one really had a great year, I don't mind an undeserving candidate receiving the award as much as I would have had if someone had really put together a great year.
   177. cardsfanboy Posted: November 21, 2006 at 09:59 PM (#2243315)
Fridas Boss Posted: November 21, 2006 at 04:45 PM (#2243300)

Just out of curiosity, why is there an expectation for the MVP to be "correct" when it is named by voting conducted by a small sample of an extremely heterogenous group of writers with rooting interests and biases and as many definitions of what an MVP is as there are voters?


It doesn't have to agree with our perceptions, in fact that is part of the fun of the awarding of these awards, but I guarantee you, you will be hard pressed to find even one voter that voted for Morneu over the guys he was inferior too, that will give you a reasonable, rational explanation.

Best argument I would expect to see is these guys saying "I didn't want to give it to Jeter because his team finished so far ahead of everyone he had no value, therefore I gave it to morneu" They couldn't argue why they gave it to him, they would have to resort to arguments about why they didn't give to the guy that is more deserving.


Why Morneu over Jeter? team record.
Why Morneu over Mauer? more games played
Why Morneu over Santana? Pitcher don't deserve mvp.
Why Morneu over Carlos Guillen? Who????????
Why Morneu over Thomas? DH don't deserver MVP
Why Morneu over Hafner? see thomas
Why Morneu over Vlad? team didn't make the playoffs (applies to thome, dye, konerko, sizemore, wells etc)

basically the voters decide on who they want then try to argue a way into a reason. Mind you their reasoning doesn't stand up to any real arguments so they squirm again. When pressed with why did you vote for a non-playoff guy in second place, they'll reply they can finish second just not first.
   178. Buttjustice Posted: November 21, 2006 at 10:00 PM (#2243316)
As a Twins fan, I'm just going to accept this MVP Award without question, objection, or complaint as a form of reparations from the BBWAA for the 2005 Cy Young Voting Massacre. Frankly, I would have preferred 3 (or more) consecutive Cys Young for El Presidente Santana, but because I can't turn back time, this award will have to do.
   179. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: November 21, 2006 at 10:02 PM (#2243320)
There are certainly plenty of players more deserving than Morneau, I'm not arguing with that. But the difference between the most deserving - Jeter, maybe? - and the winner is a lot smaller than it was in '99

Rodriguez put up gold-glove defense at catcher over 140 games and put together a .900 OPS. He probably didn't deserve it, but he was a lot more defensible than Morneau, and I can at least understand the logic there.

This year they might as well have let their dogs vote for them.
   180. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: November 21, 2006 at 10:04 PM (#2243322)
It's such a terrible decision that I don't care at all. I can't remember a worse awards call in my lifetime.

It's karmic justice for last year's AL Cy Young, I guess.

What a terrible, terrible, terrible decision this is. Just abominable.
   181. Boots Day Posted: November 21, 2006 at 10:06 PM (#2243324)
I don't think Jeter fans can have the righteous indignation that a Cardinal fan has

Why not? Pujols won last year, when he wasn't appreciably better (if at all) than Derrek Lee. He lost this year to a candidate with much better credentials than the guy who beat Jeter.

You could make the case that Jeter shouldn't have been the clear-cut favorite this year (though I think he was, and I hate him the way Ted Nugent hates vegetarians), but Pujols really doesn't have a whole lot to complain about.
   182. stanmvp48 Posted: November 21, 2006 at 10:12 PM (#2243326)
Well I think they do pick the team first and then look for the player from the team. That is what leads to selections like this and Tejada for example. Minnesota scored exactly an average number of runs. They made the playoffs, not because of their offense, but because they had the second best pitching in the league. But since the voters won't consider pitchers, they end up trying to find and justify an MVP from an average offense, leading them to bizarre suggestions like this one. The next problem is that they think the most valuable offense is the one with the most RBIS resulting in nonsense like Bell over MCGriff and Garvey over Wynn. The fact is, the highest ranking player in the RBI column from a playoff team will always be a prime contender. I am interested why so many people thought Howard was a bad choice. His averages were a little lower than Pujols' but his totals, because of not missing a month, were much better.
   183. rdfc Posted: November 21, 2006 at 10:12 PM (#2243327)
Childhood - Roy Halladay definitely belongs on the list. Ichiro does because of his defense. Jim Thome. A bunch of relievers who had great seasons - Papelbon, Ryan, Nathan, and F Rodriguez. And maybe Michael Young, whose defense significantly improved this year.

I don't think you can reasonably put Giambi ahead of Morneau,, however.
   184. cardsfanboy Posted: November 21, 2006 at 10:14 PM (#2243330)
Why not? Pujols won last year, when he wasn't appreciably better (if at all) than Derrek Lee. He lost this year to a candidate with much better credentials than the guy who beat Jeter.

at least with derrek lee vs pujols the writers can come up with a reason(see sosa vs mcgwire) about the team standing. (for the record, I think that voters outside of st louis that voted for pujols over lee should be made fun of, and anyone that voted andruw over either should be taken outside and shot to prevent them from breeding) Howard vs Pujols the writers can't even use that. I agree about the second part, but the thing is that there is a very strong argument that Jeter wasn't the MVP(see Mauer)so from that point of view, there was a good chance that Jeter wasn't going to win anyway, and may have deservedly lost. (btw my vote has Jeter as MVP)
   185. Boots Day Posted: November 21, 2006 at 10:19 PM (#2243335)
Howard vs Pujols the writers can't even use that.

They can't use team standing to justify it, but on the other hand, Howard's team won more games than Pujols', which probably counts for something. Plus, Howard's team turned it into overdrive coming down the stretch, while Pujols' team looked for a while like it was going to have a collapse of historic proportions.

I suspect that team issues may have been what pushed Howard ahead of Pujols, despite the fact that Pujols made the playoffs (and eventually won the WS, though that's irrelevant here) and Howard didn't. Strange, isn't it?
   186. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 21, 2006 at 10:22 PM (#2243337)
In terms of the HOF vote, it does not matter. Derek is going to the Hall of Fame. The only question is on what ballot.

Unless he's transformed into Neifi Perez for the last third of his career, Jeter is already in 1st ballot territory, although I suppose you have to allow for some doubt due to the haters.
   187. Jundt Posted: November 21, 2006 at 10:31 PM (#2243345)
The feeling I get reading this thread is that Jeter was the obvious choice, or at least Justin was a bad choice. Jeter vs. Justin may be the wrong argument, the better one is why no love for Carlos Guillen?? Based on the Jeter praise, Carlos being completely left out of the discussion seems to me the biggest injustice.
   188. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: November 21, 2006 at 10:39 PM (#2243349)
Agree with Sam M. on this. For those of you who might have missed it, I'm reposting it here:

Fox is airing a new special.

Derek Jeter, in his own words.

"If I had won the MVP, this is how I would have done it."


Pure gold; Primey, MBS worthy with a huge dollop of RDF.

Best Regards

John
   189. Randomly Fluctuating Defensive Metric Posted: November 21, 2006 at 10:40 PM (#2243350)
Per my blog:

" Wow.
Just wow.
This is amazing. Unprecedented, really… has a team’s third best player ever before “won” the MVP?
How did the Baseball Writers of America screw this up so badly? Their utter incompetence is almost staggering. Their sheer inability to adapt their reasoning to present day, sensible statistical advancements, such as V.O.R.P., is at best laughable, at worst irresponsible.
This awful decision only leads credence to the fact that American sports journalism is broken beyond repair.
I may compose a post later detailing just how brutal the sports media has become, in listening, watching, or reading, if I'm still disgusted enough later to write such a column.
The odds are looking good that I will be."

You could say I'm angry... nay... outraged.
   190. sunnyday2 Posted: November 21, 2006 at 10:48 PM (#2243354)
Well, I still think George Bell was a worse choice than Morneau because Trammell '87 was so much better than Jetes '06.

But here's the scary thing, which has always stuck in my mind and my craw. From the don't go looking anywhere too close to home for salvation category. The players picked Bell as the AL MVP that year, too.

Ouch.
   191. The Polish Sausage Racer Posted: November 21, 2006 at 10:50 PM (#2243356)
Let me get this straight.....not only did EVERYONE have Morneau in their top four slots, but NO ONE had Mauer in their top two? Whoa.

FWIW, Morneau was on my fantasy team, which came in fourth; he was okay, but he wasn't the best offensive player by any means, and my offense completely stank.

Or is it stunk? Stunk. Stank? Hm....Sucked, we'll go with sucked.

Anyway, totally goofy voting.
   192. . Posted: November 21, 2006 at 11:02 PM (#2243366)
Carlos Guillen is (much) better defensively, had an OPS 19 points higher in a bad hitters' park, played on a better team than Jeter, and has better (actual, not phony) intangibles than Jeter. And stole 20 bases.

When Carlos isn't in the Tiger lineup, they stink. Jeter plays right next to a teammate who is better than he is at his position.

Why is it that Jeter was screwed finishing second, but Carlos was fine at tenth with a preposterous 34 points? With Trammell getting hosed as bad as you can get hosed in the HOF balloting, it's as if you get no pub at all if you play SS if you don't play SS in New York.
   193. . Posted: November 21, 2006 at 11:06 PM (#2243370)
Well, I still think George Bell was a worse choice than Morneau because Trammell '87 was so much better than Jetes '06.

Alan Trammell OPS 1987: 953.
Derek Jeter OPS 2006: 900.

Alan Trammell fielding 1987: Like Alan Trammell.
Derek Jeter fielding 2006: Like Derek Jeter.

You make the call.
   194. Dan Turkenkopf Posted: November 21, 2006 at 11:10 PM (#2243373)
had an OPS 19 points higher in a bad hitters' park


Not that I'm disagreeing with you that Guillen should have been higher, but Jeter had a slight lead in OPS+ (138-137).
   195. Swedish Chef Posted: November 21, 2006 at 11:16 PM (#2243379)
And stole 20 bases.

20-9 SB-CS is no positive, especially if you compare with Jeters 34-5.
   196. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: November 21, 2006 at 11:18 PM (#2243381)
Yeah, if one's criterion is 'most valuable to his team' Guillen would win it in a walk. The Tigs offense was god-awful without him. I can't believe he didn't get a 1 or 2 vote from one of the Detroit voters, at least.
   197. . Posted: November 21, 2006 at 11:19 PM (#2243383)
Not that I'm disagreeing with you that Guillen should have been higher, but Jeter had a slight lead in OPS+ (138-137).

I hear you, but I find it tough to credit a system that would narrow the OPS gap in favor of the guy that played in Yankee Stadium over Comerica Park.
   198. bob gee Posted: November 21, 2006 at 11:24 PM (#2243393)
RE: #189 - i know win shares doesn't agree with me, but i felt that mo vaughn, when he won mvp, was the third most valuable red sox (behind valentin and wakefield).

however, (to my eye), vaughn was much closer to valentin and wakefield than morneau is to the other twins.

i'm going next door now, where my neighbor is a HUGE jeter fan. and i'll have to explain that if either of the other two twins had won, it wouldn't be bad, but compared to morneau, jeter was robbed....

agreed RE: 96 - hysterical.
   199. Hal Chase Headley Lamarr Hoyt Wilhelm (ACE1242) Posted: November 21, 2006 at 11:29 PM (#2243400)
#75 and #175 can't both be right, can they?
   200. . Posted: November 21, 2006 at 11:31 PM (#2243401)
20-9 SB-CS is no positive, especially if you compare with Jeters 34-5.

Only in Saberville is the former true. In real baseball a guy with enough speed to steal 20 bases is a plus for his speed and a guy who is plus for speed is better, ceteris paribus than a guy who isn't. I understand I'm in Saberville, but it is what it is.

No one said his SB record was as good as Jeter's, only that in addition to being a superb hitter and above-average fielder, Guillen can also run.

The spread between Jeter's 300+ MVP points and Guillen's 34 is simply preposterous. At least the writers had the decency to jump Carlos to 10th, unlike in 2004 when he had about as good a year -- 8th in the AL in OPS, excellent range at SS -- and finished an incomprehensible 24th.
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