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Tuesday, July 26, 2011

Stone: Is this the most embarrassing point ever for Mariner franchise?

Why…is today’s game rained out?

To answer my original question, I’d say that this is indeed the low point for the franchise in my memory. Perhaps you can point to off the field moments involving their long, painful quest for a new stadium, when it looked for sure like they were headed out of Seattle. But as far as the product on the field, I can’t think of anything to match this. There have been painful losses in the past, to be sure, but those were in the context of successful seasons that simply didn’t extend as far as they could have. There have been awful seasons, but many of those came in the early years, when the Mariners still had the excuse of being an expansion team to fall back on. And while the recent downturn has been painful—five last-place finishes in the last seven years, two of them with triple-digits in losses and another at 99—I’d say that their abrupt demise in 2011, punctuated by this hideous losing streak, is the absolute nadir.

The only point in time I believe compares on the embarrassment meter occurred in 2008, when the Mariners became the first team in history to lose 100 games with a payroll over $100 million. That was indeed a shining example of ineptitude, one that got them a lot of unwanted attention for an epic job of squandering their resources. But the Mariners have been selling us on the progress they’re making to get out of the giant hole they’ve dug for themselves in recent years (and for awhile, it appeared, aptly so). As a growing number of baseball fans around the nation begin to focus on the Mariners’ monumental train-wreck of a skid, however, it’s getting harder and harder to buy into.

Repoz Posted: July 26, 2011 at 09:38 AM | 73 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: history, mariners

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1. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 26, 2011 at 12:02 PM (#3885566)

The falling Kingdome tiles are right up there, I think.

2. Dag Nabbit: Sockless Psychopath Posted: July 26, 2011 at 01:46 PM (#3885620)

Why…is today’s game rained out?

HA!

3. RJ in TO Posted: July 26, 2011 at 01:52 PM (#3885625)

What about Maury Wills' reign of baffled terror?

4. RJ in TO Posted: July 26, 2011 at 01:54 PM (#3885627)

Or the recent revelation that the only reason they didn't trade Randy Johnson for two middle relievers was that Woody Woodward was too busy golfing.

5. SoSH U at work Posted: July 26, 2011 at 01:59 PM (#3885630)

Or the recent revelation that the only reason they didn't trade Randy Johnson for two middle relievers was that Woody Woodward was too busy golfing.

If your GM is pondering trading the Big Unit for two middle relievers, you want him on the links as much as possible.

6. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:03 PM (#3885634)

When I was a kid they stunk every year (never had a winning season til what '91 or so?) and played in the worst stadium in the league. At least they play in a nice stadium now.

7. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:12 PM (#3885645)

Is this the most embarrassing point ever for Mariner franchise?

Are you nuts?

8. Dag Nabbit: Sockless Psychopath Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:18 PM (#3885649)

There's the time they traded Jason Varitek and Derrek Lowe for Heathcliff Slocomb.

9. Mike Emeigh

Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:30 PM (#3885661)

the Mariners have been selling us on the progress they’re making to get out of the giant hole they’ve dug for themselves in recent years

which is the problem - they haven't made much progress yet and have oversold the progress that they have made. Rebuilding an organization that was as much of a train wreck as this one was when Zduriencik took over takes time, and the unexpectedly competitive season in 2009 set unrealistic expectations. Had the Mariners won 75 games in 2009 (which by rights they probably should have) instead of 85, they probably don't make the Figgins and Lee moves and they'd probably be further along today.

I've made this point before with respect to the Pirates, but I think it bears repeating - a season where a team is unexpectedly catapulted into a pennant race can be a setback to that team's long-term success if they lose sight of where the organization is in the success cycle. I don't know whether Zduriencik overvalued what he had on hand or whether ownership pushed him to go all in on 2010, but the decisions that they made in that offseason set the process back.

-- MWE

10. Bourbon Samurai stays in the fight Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:31 PM (#3885664)

I mean, really? This isn't some proud juggernaut. This is the Mariners. They've been shitty plenty of times. What about, say, 1988, when they were terrible AND their best player was Alvin Davis?

They still have Ichiro and King Felix, so they are still worth going to take a look at even if they're bad.

11. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:37 PM (#3885669)

I mean, really? This isn't some proud juggernaut. This is the Mariners. They've been shitty plenty of times. What about, say, 1988, when they were terrible AND their best player was Alvin Davis?

How bout 1980 when Bruce Bochte was by far their best player and they had FOUR starters with a sub .600 OPS. FOUR!!! They hit .248/.308/.356 AS A TEAM!

Not as bad as today's lineup, but it was bad!

12. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:38 PM (#3885671)

Hey! Alvin Davis was good!

13. SoSH U at work Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:39 PM (#3885672)

Hey! Alvin Davis was good!

He was, though that was one hell of a cliff he went off at 30. Was he hurt?

14. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:41 PM (#3885674)

Alvin Davis was no Phil Bradley.

15. Jeff R. Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:52 PM (#3885684)

He was, though that was one hell of a cliff he went off at 30. Was he hurt?

I don't remember any injury talk. He just turned into the poster-boy for guys with old-players skills who fall off the table in their 30's.

16. Guapo Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:57 PM (#3885686)

Most embarrassing Mariners moment: I would have gone with Clemens' first 20-k game, or the Rick Honeycutt incident:

When pitching for the Mariners against the Royals on Sept. 30, 1980, Honeycutt taped a thumbtack to his finger to cut the ball. Willie Wilson, after hitting a double, spotted the tack from second base. When the umps came out to have a look, they not only found the tack, but also a gash in Honeycutt's forehead -- he had rubbed his face absentmindedly, almost poking his eye out in the process.

"I should have known right then that it wasn't going to work," he later said. "It didn't do anything for me. I didn't know what I was doing at the time. I only did it once and I did it badly and got caught at it. I was really struggling at the time. We were getting ready to go out onto the field, and I passed a bulletin board and there was a tack in it. I put it on the middle finger of my glove hand." Honeycutt was ejected, suspended for 10 games, and fined $250.

[from espn.com]

17. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 26, 2011 at 03:08 PM (#3885690)

The Rick Honeycutt Incident was easily Guns and Roses' worst album.

18. SoSH U at work Posted: July 26, 2011 at 03:12 PM (#3885695)

The Lennie Randle blow job (Wait, that came out wrong).

19. Infinite Yost (Voxter)

Posted: July 26, 2011 at 03:26 PM (#3885701)

They still have Ichiro and King Felix, so they are still worth going to take a look at even if they're bad.

Watched Scratchiro play lately?

20. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 26, 2011 at 03:39 PM (#3885709)

They still have a better record than the Baltimore Orioles.

I would have to think last year was the low point, with that legendarily bad offense.
If King Felix didn't been so good last year, there would have been no reason to watch them.

21. Infinite Yost (Voxter)

Posted: July 26, 2011 at 03:54 PM (#3885719)

They're scoring a tenth of a run more per game -- in other words, they're in for a whopping 532 runs this year, after 513 last season.

There has been an improvement in pitching . . .

22. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 26, 2011 at 03:56 PM (#3885720)

If they reunited the 2001 team, how much worse (or better) would they be?

23. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 26, 2011 at 04:25 PM (#3885736)

It's weird.
They are scoring more (as #21 points out), but their OPS is lower (.623 vs .637).
But then, their team OPS+ is the same (79), in what is considered a much lower scoring environment this year.

I guess they suck SO much that they are almost contributing to the lower scoring environment on their own...

24. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 26, 2011 at 04:31 PM (#3885739)

Watched Scratchiro play lately?

Ichiro is always worth watching, whether or not he's any good.

25. PreservedFish Posted: July 26, 2011 at 04:34 PM (#3885740)

If they reunited the 2001 team, how much worse (or better) would they be?

Fantastic question, please let somebody thoroughly answer this question.

26. The George Sherrill Selection Posted: July 26, 2011 at 04:48 PM (#3885746)

Of the still-playing 2001 Mariners:

Carlos Guillen is hitting .357/.387/.464
Mike Cameron is hitting .144/.238/.264
Ichiro? is hitting .268/.314/.318

And the pitching:
Freddy Garcia: 3.23 ERA
Arthur Rhodes: 5.09 ERA
Brian Fuentes: 4.32 ERA
Joel Pineiro: 4.61 ERA
Ryan Franklin: 8.46 ERA

27. Bourbon Samurai stays in the fight Posted: July 26, 2011 at 04:53 PM (#3885748)

Hey! Alvin Davis was good!

He was ok, but he sure wasn't a player you got excited about going to the ballpark to go see.

28. Ray (CTL)

Posted: July 26, 2011 at 05:01 PM (#3885752)

They still have Ichiro

Yes. That's been a big part of the problem. -0.7 WAR is really, really bad.

29. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: July 26, 2011 at 05:04 PM (#3885754)

I've made this point before with respect to the Pirates, but I think it bears repeating - a season where a team is unexpectedly catapulted into a pennant race can be a setback to that team's long-term success if they lose sight of where the organization is in the success cycle. I don't know whether Zduriencik overvalued what he had on hand or whether ownership pushed him to go all in on 2010, but the decisions that they made in that offseason set the process back.

On one hand, PETOCA projected the 2010 Mariners as a 86 win team and a legitimate contender. Certainly we could point to the flaws of PETOCA (don't they always underestimate the Angels for whatever reason?), but I think Jack Z could make a legitimate case to himself that contention in 2010 was possible without engaging in complete wishful thinking analysis. On the other hand, even if Jack Z saw a significant degree of skepticism about his team's chances to contend in 2010, could he act upon that skepticism and give up on 2010 given the occupational constraints of his job? He's paid to make the M's a contender and his job security is dependent on showing progress. I'm assuming you mean the Figgins signings and maybe the Lee trade (although he did gain an excellent haul back at the deadline) when you they made in that offseason set the process back. And I guess there's the puzzling League for Morrow trade. But when you have a chance to contend, you have to go for it. While I haven't check to see how Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies, and Juan Ramirez are doing today, he did at least get back Smoak and three minor leaguers to help compensate for their loss.

30. Mr. Hotfoot Jackson (gef, talking mongoose) Posted: July 26, 2011 at 05:52 PM (#3885781)

The Lennie Randle blow job (Wait, that came out wrong).

That's what he said.

31. Mr. Hotfoot Jackson (gef, talking mongoose) Posted: July 26, 2011 at 05:55 PM (#3885784)

Of the still-playing 2001 Mariners:

Forget those guys. Would they be better if they reassembled the retired '01 players?

32. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 26, 2011 at 06:12 PM (#3885799)

Nothing embarrasses #6.

33. TerpNats Posted: July 26, 2011 at 06:21 PM (#3885803)

I've made this point before with respect to the Pirates, but I think it bears repeating -- a season where a team is unexpectedly catapulted into a pennant race can be a setback to that team's long-term success if they lose sight of where the organization is in the success cycle.

Which is why, as a Nationals fan, I'm perversely glad that they haven't been more than two games over .500 before the trading deadline. While I doubt Rizzo ever believed they were ready yet, I'm a bit fearful what might have happened if one of the Lerners thought that way.

34. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 26, 2011 at 07:32 PM (#3885852)

You know what's embarrassing? Starting Mario Mendoza. Yes, THAT Mario Mendoza. Not only that, but for two years. And one of which in which he actually hit UNDER the Mendoza Line.

35. Dag Nabbit: Sockless Psychopath Posted: July 26, 2011 at 09:06 PM (#3885889)

Inspired by this piece, I present to you the latest THT Live offering: Low points in Mariners history

36. rb's team is hopeful for the new year! Posted: July 26, 2011 at 09:14 PM (#3885893)

They still have Ichiro and King Felix, so they are still worth going to take a look at even if they're bad.

This is not true. I went to the king's last home start, and the whole experience was brutal.

37. Good cripple hitter Posted: July 26, 2011 at 09:44 PM (#3885907)

Inspired by this piece, I present to you the latest THT Live offering: Low points in Mariners history

Nice list, but 2010 could've used the game in which Eric Brynes pulled his bat back on an suicide squeeze in extra innings (a gaffe so bizarre that Ron Washington argued that the pitch should've been called a strike because he couldn't fathom the idea that Brynes took the pitch), then struck out looking and bicycled his way out of the stadium, dodging the press and Jack Z. He was subsequently released by the team.

Come to think of it, Ken Griffey Jr.s napping fiasco probably could've made the list, along with the Choo/A.Cabrera for Broussard and Eduardo Perez trades. And there's plenty more low points in recent times that I've forgotten (like what caused Richie Sexson's pose that's captured in Lookout Landing's banner image). It's been pretty gloomy for the M's in recent years.

38. villageidiom Posted: July 26, 2011 at 10:03 PM (#3885915)

Mariners fans need their own It Gets Better campaign.

39. The George Sherrill Selection Posted: July 26, 2011 at 10:04 PM (#3885916)

More classics:

Scott Spiezio, in particular him showing off a tattoo of his stripper^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H model girlfriend.

The price of beer at a local bar pegged to the batting average of Richie Sexson.

Al Martin.

40. rb's team is hopeful for the new year! Posted: July 26, 2011 at 10:07 PM (#3885918)

Mariners fans need their own It Gets Better campaign.

This is a brilliant idea. It could include videos from pirates fans, and the like.

41. Infinite Yost (Voxter)

Posted: July 26, 2011 at 10:19 PM (#3885924)

Pitied by Pirates fans. That's a new low.

42. Dag Nabbit: Sockless Psychopath Posted: July 26, 2011 at 10:28 PM (#3885932)

The price of beer at a local bar pegged to the batting average of Richie Sexson.

Hey - they did that to Dave Valle first.

Who could forget Dave Valle Days?

43. Rally Posted: July 27, 2011 at 12:11 AM (#3885997)

This headline will be very funny if CC keeps pitching like he has through the first four.

44. bestergonomicgamingchair.com Posted: July 27, 2011 at 12:15 AM (#3885999)

[43] Make that 5.

45. Kurt Posted: July 27, 2011 at 12:16 AM (#3886000)

Forget the headline, what about Repoz' intro? Spooky.

46. bestergonomicgamingchair.com Posted: July 27, 2011 at 12:17 AM (#3886001)

Although, the weather looks awfully ominous ...

47. Ray (CTL)

Posted: July 27, 2011 at 12:24 AM (#3886008)

#43, 10 Ks through 5 for CC. So he has a chance to:

* throw a perfect game
* break the strikeout record (again against the Mariners)
* extend the Mariners' futility to 17 games.

Neat game to be at.

48. bestergonomicgamingchair.com Posted: July 27, 2011 at 12:37 AM (#3886017)

Also had a shot at the consecutive strikeouts record.

And now ... ####### rain delay.

Argh.

49. Ray (CTL)

Posted: July 27, 2011 at 12:47 AM (#3886031)

I don't know what the weather is in New York (er, even though I'm a scant few miles from the Stadium - but I'm locked in my office), but that has to one of the suckiest rain delays ever if it forces CC to come out.

Though I believe Girardi has a track record from Florida of allowing his ace pitcher to re-boot after a rain delay :-)

50. bestergonomicgamingchair.com Posted: July 27, 2011 at 01:24 AM (#3886066)

Well, there it goes, to Brendan "Megan's Law" Ryan.

CC did K the next 2 batters, giving him 14 through 7, a new career high.

Wonder how it would have gone without the delay, he was completely locked in with all 4 pitches.

51. RollingWave Posted: July 27, 2011 at 01:58 AM (#3886099)

don't look now, but bases loaded no out and CC's out

52. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE

Posted: July 27, 2011 at 02:04 AM (#3886106)

Just curious: does a seven-inning, one-hit, and 14-strikeout performance against the 2011 Mariners count as a quality start?

53. Good cripple hitter Posted: July 27, 2011 at 02:08 AM (#3886114)

In gameday, one of Chone Figgins' hot zones is right down the middle... where he's OPSed .548.

Mariners Baseball!

54. RollingWave Posted: July 27, 2011 at 02:21 AM (#3886134)

I am 17 going on 18 .....

55. Srul Itza Posted: July 27, 2011 at 02:40 AM (#3886170)

Why…is today’s game rained out?

If only:

The Seattle Mariners flailed away helplessly against CC Sabathia in their 17th straight loss, managing only one hit and striking out 18 times overall in a 4-1 loss to the New York Yankees on a rain-soaked Tuesday.

56. Spahn Insane Posted: July 27, 2011 at 03:23 AM (#3886199)

I don't remember any injury talk. He just turned into the poster-boy for guys with old-players skills who fall off the table in their 30's.

I remember Davis's career, but don't have a clear memory of actually watching him play. Looking at his stats--man, he must've been SLOW. 7 career SBs, 5 of them in his rookie year; 10 triples, 3 of them in his rookie year. Despite having a lot of power and a career OBP of .380, he scored 568 runs in 9 years.

57. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 27, 2011 at 03:30 AM (#3886204)

Despite having a lot of power and a career OBP of .380, he scored 568 runs in 9 years.

Who was going to drive him in, Jim Presley?

58. The George Sherrill Selection Posted: July 27, 2011 at 03:43 AM (#3886211)

Geoff Baker has the list of worst streaks in AL/NL since 1890...

24 -- Cleveland (NL), 1899
23 -- Philadelphia (NL), 1961
23 -- Pittsburgh (NL), 1890
21 -- x-Baltimore (AL), 1988
20 -- Boston (AL), 1906
20 -- Philadelphia (AL), 1916
20 -- Philadelphia (AL), 1943
20 -- Montreal (NL), 1969
19 -- Kansas City (AL), 2005
19 -- Detroit (AL), 1975
19 -- Boston (NL), 1906
19 -- Cincinnati (NL), 1914
18 -- Philadelphia (AL), 1920
18 -- Washington (AL), 1948
18 -- Washington (AL), 1959
18 -- St. Louis (NL), 1897
17 -- Boston (AL), 1926
17 -- New York (NL), 1962
17 -- Atlanta (NL), 1977
17-- SEATTLE (AL), 2011

Next 5 games according to ESPN:
Felix vs. Hughes
Beavan vs. Niemann
Pineda vs. Cobb
Vargas vs. Hellickson
Fister vs. Cahill

22 is not out of the question. Oakland has the best chance to 'stop the streak'; after that it's the Angels, Texas, Boston... ugh.

59. TerpNats Posted: July 27, 2011 at 05:09 AM (#3886253)

The price of beer at a local bar pegged to the batting average of Richie Sexson.

The Jayson Werth of his era.

60. RollingWave Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:52 AM (#3886302)

Felix is having a down year (for him) but you'd figure between Hughes' inability to either throw real fastballs and/or adequet curveballs in the same game and the Yankees propensity against streaks( both winning and losing) this year, that next game will be probably be the end.

Of course if they manage to lose tomorrow they're in deep shite.

61. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: July 27, 2011 at 11:57 AM (#3886322)

They still have Ichiro

Yes. That's been a big part of the problem. -0.7 WAR is really, really bad.

SO. After kicking and screaming like a diabetic child in a candy store aginst the use of WAR to capture Ichiro's value in hundreds of previous Ichiro threads, and insisting on using EQA and crap that you never bring out for anybody else. Now that it shows that he is awful you are perfectly happy using it? Color me shocked.

62. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: July 27, 2011 at 12:25 PM (#3886332)

Alternatively, if even the metric that typically paints his performance in the best possible light shows him to be ####, then he must have really, really turned to ####.

63. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: July 27, 2011 at 01:50 PM (#3886378)

Alternatively, if even the metric that typically paints his performance in the best possible light shows him to be ####, then he must have really, really turned to ####.

Or alternatively, three months of fielding stats are basically useless. I mean I can buy a defensive decline. But convincing me that he's 30+ runs worth than anytime in the previous 8 years is going to be a tough sell...

64. Infinite Yost (Voxter)

Posted: July 27, 2011 at 02:03 PM (#3886381)

After kicking and screaming like a diabetic child in a candy store aginst the use of WAR to capture Ichiro's value in hundreds of previous Ichiro threads, and insisting on using EQA and crap that you never bring out for anybody else. Now that it shows that he is awful you are perfectly happy using it? Color me shocked.

WAR is a shitty stat, but leave us not pretend that he hasn't sucked donkey balls.

65. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: July 27, 2011 at 02:13 PM (#3886391)

It's sad seeing Ichiro turn to ####, but everyone gets old. I hope he's got one last season of magic left to give.

66. Greg Pope Posted: July 27, 2011 at 03:13 PM (#3886449)

67. Qufini Posted: July 27, 2011 at 03:14 PM (#3886450)

I was hoping he could keep it going until age 40. I would have loved to see Ichiro get 3000 hits on this side of the Pacific.

68. Ray (CTL)

Posted: July 27, 2011 at 03:23 PM (#3886463)

SO. After kicking and screaming like a diabetic child in a candy store aginst the use of WAR to capture Ichiro's value in hundreds of previous Ichiro threads, and insisting on using EQA and crap that you never bring out for anybody else. Now that it shows that he is awful you are perfectly happy using it? Color me shocked.

Stop lying, and go take a flying leap instead.

69. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: July 27, 2011 at 04:33 PM (#3886551)

Stop lying, and go take a flying leap instead.

A well-reasoned and concise rebuttal.

70. bestergonomicgamingchair.com Posted: July 27, 2011 at 07:29 PM (#3886834)

Go CRAZY, Seattle!!!

Phil Hughes, Corey Wade, Boone Logan and Luis Ayala, cure for anyone's losing streak!

71. Jose is an Absurd Sultan Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:09 PM (#3886884)

Three more outs, it's not over yet.

72. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 27, 2011 at 08:13 PM (#3886891)

It is now.

73. Something Other Posted: July 30, 2011 at 09:44 AM (#3888920)

It's sad seeing Ichiro turn to ####, but everyone gets old. I hope he's got one last season of magic left to give.

He seems to have a very high baseball IQ, so if his skills have truly eroded he may well figure out how to compensate and bounce back in 2012.

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