TFA:

"Heartbreaking move, disappointed. What are you hitting, .240?'' Morrison said Beinfest told him. "I don't know if that makes any sense to me or you guys, but all I know is I go out and give everything for this team. I play hurt, play through injury and this is how you get treated. It doesn't seem very fair or right to me.

"They didn't say anything about [my 17 homers and 60 RBI]. They didn't say anything about maybe the reason I was hitting .240 was getting the guy over to third rolling over groundballs, not worrying about average.

"Am I going to say I'm having the best of years? Absolutely not. But I'm never satisfied.''

Morrison, who's outspoken and often shares his humorous, candid thoughts on Twitter and radio, said he believes the demotion may have to do with something he did "off the field.'' He didn't wish to elaborate.

Morrison said he still wanted to play "for a big-league team and yes, that's the big-league team I'm with, [except] I'm in Triple-A now,'' he said. "Right now I just feel resentment and anger. I guess anger could motivate.

"Stand up for what's right and this happens.''

One gets the impression this may inflame the rift in the team more than solve it.

What the hell? Now it's become a "Giants not out to avenge Buster Posey injury" article.

OK, found the new link and updated.

I couldn't ID Logan Morrison in a police lineup, but this guy sure comes off as a self-absorbed ####### with no filter any time he's got a reporter's voice recorder in front of his face.

Hanley 1, LoMo 0. If you're going to talk like you're the centerpiece of the team, you damn well better play like it. Morrison hasn't, and the message needed to be sent. Smart move on the Marlins' part.

Is he really not aware that this might have something to do with his terrible fielding?

Wait...a guy with a 115 OPS+ is being optioned?

Hanley Ramirez must be kowtowed to at all costs.

A 115 OPS+ plus the instincts of a tranquilized rhino in left field equals replacement level.

#8 As I said in the other thread, it's lack of ability, not a lack of effort.

In a way it reminds me of Bill James' comment about Bill Madlock being unhappy about being shifted to second.

"This is understandable; bears don't like to roller skate, cows don't like to dance and the Pope rarely appears on game shows. Playing second base was not among Madlock's considerable talents."

And if you think about it, the image of Morrison as a roller skating bear works quite nicely.

A 115 OPS+ plus the instincts of a tranquilized rhino in left field equals replacement level.

In his defense, he only played first baseman in the minors and was playing out of position in left, where he is very athletically stretched. It still doesn't excuse the bad defense necessarily but they knew what they were getting.

If getting sent to the minors teaches him not to speak about 162 game schedules when he's never played one and not to blast a teammate through the media, it'd have served a good purpose. He should really accomplish more before he lets his inner Curt Schilling out.

So let me get this straight....

You take a left handed power hitting FIRST BASEMAN who is a blue chip prospect, and has an excellent minor league career, and then comes up to the majors and you stick him in Left Field.

All he does at AGE 23 in his first 156 games, 693 PA's is hit .264/.354/.459 118 OPS+, and you are all bent out of shape because he sucks in left field and embraces modern media ? Yes....sending him to the minors is the OBVIOUS solution here. (insert eye roll)

Man....trade him to the D backs in the offseason. We can use his left handed bat at first base.

Seriously, the Marlins should trade the 27 year old Sanchez who is as good as he'll ever be, but would bring in some nice pitching or outfield help, and put Morrison back at first where he belongs.

"LoMo" has acted very entitled for the past year, so he needs to grow up. And Sanchez was ahead of him in the pecking order at 1B, and produced.

From a inventory standpoint, I like post 11. But if LoMo is as annoying as he seems, I'm not surprised that the team goes tough-love on him.

It ain't braggin' if you can back it up. And if you are reasonably good but not great...

I'd put him at very good for his age at the plate at least. Not great, but more than 'reasonably good'

Since 2002, (So last 10 years) players through age 23 minimum 600 PA's by OPS +

LINK

Clearly one of the best young hitters to come up in the last 10 years. Easily top 20

Big deal, it's not like he won't be back. Maybe when he comes back he won't act like such a self important #######.

Big deal, it's not like he won't be back. Maybe when he comes back he won't act like such a self important #######.

It actually is quite a big deal, this move pretty much sends the message "you #### with Hanley, you get ######\" Logan will go to the minors, come back in September and get traded in the off season...none of that should be a surprise.

well when you at like an ass callin out other teamates while not produing this is what happpens

well when you at like an ass callin out other teamates while not produing this is what happpens

No, this is what happens when you find a stranger in the alps.

And Sanchez was ahead of him in the pecking order at 1B, and produced.

Well, kinda. Sanchez was considered by many to be the "over the hill" (prospect-wise) place-holder until Morrison was ready. And Sanchez has not hit that well -- 108 last year. This season, Sanchez is 2 points ahead in OPS+ and is 4 years older -- from a strictly baseball viewpoint, you don't mess with Morrison in favor of Sanchez.

On the "bright" side, near as I can tell this won't mess with Morrison's FA clock. He's past a full-season but, even if up for the full year, he still wouldn't qualify for super-2 after next year. Unless maybe the Marlins know something about super-2s and arbs in the next CBA that we don't.

Man....trade him to the D backs in the offseason. We can use his left handed bat at first base.

I thought you folks were all hot and bothered about that Goldschmidt kid. Better is to trade him to the Cubs for Z. :-)

Well, kinda. Sanchez was considered by many to be the "over the hill" (prospect-wise) place-holder until Morrison was ready. And Sanchez has not hit that well -- 108 last year. This season, Sanchez is 2 points ahead in OPS+ and is 4 years older -- from a strictly baseball viewpoint, you don't mess with Morrison in favor of Sanchez.

Sounds like the Colby Rasmus Cardinals situation... I didn't know that TLR was also the manager of the Marlins.

I looked through the other Marlin players' twitter accounts last night and didn't see much (the catcher Baker had a comment that made it sound like he was upset, but that was it). Anyway, I'd love to know the players' reactions to this. The Marlins beat writer, Steve Berthiaume and Keith Olbermann all seemed upset about it.

I like LoMo more than most people here but I agree that he should grow up a bit with his twitter use. But as for calling out Hanley - who else on their team is going to do it? They're mostly young players and veteran's minimum guys. Maybe Josh Johnson doesn't feel comfortable calling out a hitter?

Oh no! He's going to get traded away from the Marlins? What a punishment. That'll teach him whatever lesson he's supposed to learn.

Hanley 1, LoMo 0. If you're going to talk like you're the centerpiece of the team, you damn well better play like it. Morrison hasn't, and the message needed to be sent.

This year, neither has Hanley.

But as for calling out Hanley - who else on their team is going to do it? They're mostly young players and veteran's minimum guys. Maybe Josh Johnson doesn't feel comfortable calling out a hitter?

Perhaps the Marlins thought it was counterproductive to call out the guy with the sprained shoulder for not playing through it.

Anyhow, at most he will be down for two weeks because rosters are about to expand. This looks more like a disciplinary message than a baseball move.

It actually is quite a big deal, this move pretty much sends the message "you #### with Hanley, you get ######\"

This certainly seems to be the Marlins M.O. Between this and Fredi last year it appears from afar that Hanley is untouchable. Maybe Morrison crossed some lines but the Marlins appear to be painting themselves into a corner with Hanley.

Here's one Braves fan who wishes Fredi had been a lot nicer to Hanley.

Hanley 1, LoMo 0. If you're going to talk like you're the centerpiece of the team, you damn well better play like it. Morrison hasn't, and the message needed to be sent. Smart move on the Marlins' part.

This year, neither has Hanley.

Yeah, the writer of the original comment hasn't followed much baseball this year.

Team ranks: 3rd-highest OPS, 2nd in HRs.

Guy is going to end up on the Yankees and we're all going to be PO'ed about it.

well when you at like an ass callin out other teamates while not produing this is what happpens

A 114 OPS+ out of a 23-yr-old playing out of position is "not producing"?

They sent him down because they're out of the playoffs and didn't like his mouth. Period. He'll have to clean it up in whatever org he ends up in next, otherwise he might be as hard to have around as Manny.

He had an excellent April, but since coming off the DL in may: .235/.308/.433

From a poor-fielding LF, that's "not producing"

Sounds like the Colby Rasmus Cardinals situation... I didn't know that TLR was also the manager of the Marlins.

Yes. And isn't it amazing how the anti-Morrison sentiment is almost exactly as strong as was the pro-Rasmus sentiment? Man, they really do hate Tony La Russa around here! Nice start for Rasmus in Toronto, btw.

Sounds like he fits on the Jays.

Nice start for Rasmus in Toronto, btw.

Meh, wait til next year (See: Escobar, Yunel.)

He had an excellent April, but since coming off the DL in may: .235/.308/.433

From a poor-fielding LF, that's "not producing"

Fine, but that's mostly a bad June (.200/.277/.340). I guess sending him down makes sense in order to fix his problems against lefties (.222/.310/.324)--but only if the Marlins actually think he'd fix it by hitting lesser pitching. I mean, he'd already started to rebound in August (112 OPS+)...if they were going to send him down because of lack of performance, wouldn't they have done so after June or in July?

Also, FWIW he has a .271 BABIP this year, well below last year and anything he ever did in the minors. Now, this could be due to weak contact, but his .215 ISO suggests otherwise.

And again, he's a lousy fielder because he was a first baseman in the minors. Before being called up he'd played a grand total of 25 games in LF in five minor-league seasons.

Maybe he needs to improve his LF defense (somewhat dubious given that Gaby Sanchez really doesn't look like the long-term answer at 1B, regardless of what the team thinks of him). He surely needs to improve his hitting vs. LH. But how is he OR the team served by having him trying to rectify these problems in the minors? The playoffs aren't happening whether they rejuvenate Morrison via minors stint or not.

It's also worth noting that Dan Uggla is not in Florida any more because he didn't kowtow to St. Hanley.

Yes. And isn't it amazing how the anti-Morrison sentiment is almost exactly as strong as was the pro-Rasmus sentiment? Man, they really do hate Tony La Russa around here! Nice start for Rasmus in Toronto, btw.

Did Rasmus go around bashing Pujols?

Did Morrison get traded for a couple of relievers?

"LoMo" has acted very entitled for the past year, so he needs to grow up.

Proud to say he's a grad of my affluent suburban school district!

It's also worth noting that Dan Uggla is not in Florida any more because he didn't kowtow to St. Hanley.

Dan Uggla was traded because the Marlins were trying to sign him to an extension, and the two sides weren't anywhere near close on money.

Reminds me more of the Joe Girardi/petulant Jeff Loria incident.

So congratulations to the Marlins, who have (as mentioned above) let Hanley Ramirez run the asylum. I'm sure Samson and Loria consulted with the Marlin fan before making this move.

It's also worth noting that Dan Uggla is not in Florida any more because he didn't kowtow to St. Hanley.

Well, that and the whole costing real money and soon to be an FA thing. (i.e. Uggla was gonna be gone no matter what he thought/said about Hanley)

Dan Uggla was traded because the Marlins were trying to sign him to an extension, and the two sides weren't anywhere near close on money.

If you think it's mere coincident that Uggla told the Marlins he wanted Ramirez' contract +1 mil you're not paying attention.

If you think it's mere coincident that Uggla told the Marlins he wanted Ramirez' contract +1 mil you're not paying attention.

I can see the Marlins trading him after this because they didn't want a batshit insane person on their team. Not necessarily a defence of Hanley.

If you think it's mere coincident that Uggla told the Marlins he wanted Ramirez' contract +1 mil you're not paying attention.

What does this have to do with "kowtowing" to Ramirez? Even if Uggla set his contract demands just so that he could make $1 million more than Ramirez, he was traded because the Marlins couldn't afford it. It wasn't a matter of the team trying to punish Uggla or appease Ramirez.

Maybe Larry's/Loria's thinking is: okay, if Hanley doesn't improve, I'll be stuck with an albatross that takes up 25% of my payroll for the next four years (including 2011). We HAVE to get this guy productive again at all costs.

Is there any evidence, other than dumping LoMo, that the org is bowing and scraping for Hanley this year (a lousy season)?

Dan Uggla is 31. I will guess the Marlins didn't want to pay $60 million for Uggla's 31-36 age seasons. They had his best years already.

Did Rasmus go around bashing Pujols?

His dad did go around bashing TLR/Mark McGwire. Not exactly the same but somewhat similar.

Did Morrison get traded for a couple of relievers?

don't know yet, hopefully the Marlins are smarter than Mozeliak(not that difficult of a thing to be) and manage to make the trade in the off season where you can play off of more than a few teams.

Considering that the Marlins traded Cameron Maybin for a pair of relievers. No, they are not smarter than the Cards.

Yes. And isn't it amazing how the anti-Morrison sentiment is almost exactly as strong as was the pro-Rasmus sentiment? Man, they really do hate Tony La Russa around here!

Sending a guy with 0.5 WAR in 700 PA's to the minors for 2 weeks, is not exactly the same thing as running a 3-win player out of town. If the Cards had found a more productive way to get through to Colby, I don't think many people would have complained. They decided to go nuclear instead.

Not all criticism is automatically hatinn'. Sometimes it's earned on merit...

The plot thickens.

So congratulations to the Marlins, who have (as mentioned above) let Hanley Ramirez run the asylum. I'm sure Samson and Loria consulted with the Marlin fan before making this move.

Have we seen T&B around?

The Marlins are a joke, and this move is a disgrace. Logan Morrison is one of the best players on their roster, and to demote him is inexcusable for any genuine, defensible baseball reason. He probably can't win a grievance, but it would be awesome if he did and got service time restored.

I like Sheriff LoMo, both as a ballplayer and a mouth. His riding of Hanley crossed a pretty basic line of decorum, though. I normally consider Beinfest infallible, but the handling of this whole situation doesn't speak well of Beinfest/Hill/McKeon. Hopefully they can all hash this out.

Logan Morrison is one of the best players on their roster, and to demote him is inexcusable for any genuine, defensible baseball reason.

As a couple of other people have said, his defense is terrible and a 114 OPS+ (with most of the damage done in April) is nothing great out of a corner OFer.

As a couple of other people have said, his defense is terrible and a 114 OPS+ (with most of the damage done in April) is nothing great out of a corner OFer.

And how many players do they have who are better? If that really is the basis on which he was sent down, how many of their players would have been sent down with him, or released with Helms? McKeon had a quote from before today's game that really shows that it has nothing to do with his performance, but the organization not liking his mouth.

Personally, I think that organization would benefit from a player being candid like Morrison, though I certainly get why, ideally, you don't want a rookie being that guy. But if I'm Logan Morrison, I'd tell them to go screw themselves and talk my way out of that place. And then kick their asses once I do.

And how many players do they have who are better?

You seem to be forgetting that this opens up a spot for a certain Mr. Jose Lopez. (Actually I'm sure he's replacing Helms on the roster, but couldn't resist)

From the link in 47:

Capozzi's article shines some light on the situation, as he informs readers that Helms had advised Morrison that he didn't have to attend a meet-and-greet that day with Marlins season ticket holders. Morrison had recently finished an autograph session and was upset with the Marlins' handling of a charity bowling event that had to be canceled due to lack of interest. He spoke about the issues to Helms, the team's union representative. While Helms did attend the event, Morrison ultimately did not, and hours later neither were with the big league club.

This seems like important information pertaining to the situation. I could be wrong, but this sounds like pretty good ammunition for the grievance filing.

Logan Morrison is a pretty good hitter, but arguably not a better player than Gaby Sanchez, who also plays his position. Given that he's blocked at 1st for now, he's not a particularly valuable to the Marlins, as he's a poor defender in LF and a plodding baserunner (-0.5 WAR according to BR).

I think the multiple pissing contests going on here are childish, but Morrison hasn't done anything to endear himself to the organization and his on field production isn't such that it is an outrageous baseball decision to demote him to AAA.

And how many players do they have who are better?

He's young so you can say that a little more time in the minors would help him, and the Marlins, more than some other players.

Anyway, I'm not saying I agree with the decision, just giving a baseball reason.

McKeon had a quote from before today's game that really shows that it has nothing to do with his performance, but the organization not liking his mouth.

This quote (the part about tending to business) from McKeon:

"Too many young guys come into the game today and think they've got it made. They're the darlings of the media and they want to run their mouth instead of tending to business."

makes it seem like maybe he wasn't working as hard as they would like.

Capozzi's article shines some light on the situation, as he informs readers that Helms had advised Morrison that he didn't have to attend a meet-and-greet that day with Marlins season ticket holders. Morrison had recently finished an autograph session and was upset with the Marlins' handling of a charity bowling event that had to be canceled due to lack of interest. He spoke about the issues to Helms, the team's union representative. While Helms did attend the event, Morrison ultimately did not, and hours later neither were with the big league club.

So Helms was released for telling Morrison not to come to an event that he himself did go to, while Morrison was sent down for listening to his player rep? Or was Morrison sent down for missing the meet-and-greet, while Helms was simultaneously released for stinking as a player? I don't see how this info provides a particularly compelling storyline to either side.

Honestly, even if the Marlins feel like they can't defend the move purely based on on-field concerns (which I'm sure they'll at least try), "he's just generally been acting like a dick and we wanted to knock some sense into him" sounds like a much better thing to say to an arbitrator then "he missed one meet-and-greet."

Given that he's blocked at 1st for now, he's not a particularly valuable to the Marlins

The notion that Sanchez blocks Morrison is, well....something that a bad front office comes up with.

I think the multiple pissing contests going on here are childish

I'd call it childish that the catalyst for a team releasing a player and demoting another is a charity bowling event.

The notion that Sanchez blocks Morrison is, well....something that a bad front office comes up with.

Logan Morrison evidently can't play a competent LF; Gaby Sanchez probably can't either. Thus, they probably don't belong on the same diamond. Given that: 1) Morrison has the greater long-term potential; 2) Sanchez is a perfectly competent, young cost-controlled 1B right now (2.3 WAR last year, >3 WAR pace this year); 3) Sanchez is a likely trade chip; and 4) Sanchez has been a better player this season, I don't really see a case that Morrison should be their starting 1B.

Playing Morrison in the outfield hasn't worked; he hasn't been an asset on the field this season, and he's been a pain in the rear off it. It's a lost season for the Marlins, so trade Sanchez in the off-season and return Morrison to 1B. But in the meantime, there really isn't any justification to be up and arms that a player who isn't playing particularly well was demoted to the minors.

I don't understand why the Marlins would make an issue out of this. I think the obvious outcome will be that he will be traded this off-season, potentially to the loser of the Fielder sweepstakes. But I think that Beinfest will only get 50 cents on the dollar because it's unpossible that Morrison will be on the team next April. FWIW, his BABIP this year is .273. I would love it if my team took him off their hands.

The Marlins are a joke, and this move is a disgrace. Logan Morrison is one of the best players on their roster, and to demote him is inexcusable for any genuine, defensible baseball reason. He probably can't win a grievance, but it would be awesome if he did and got service time restored.

I agree 100% except I think he could win a grievance. Logan Morrison is my new favourite player. I love how he is standing up to these bullies. Anyone who thinks this is his fault either doesn't know anything about people, is a bully themselves, or a coward.

What the Marlins are doing here is despicable. They are taking advantage of a massive power inbalance to do serious damage to a pretty much defenseless player's career just because they can. If I'm Mike Stanton I get up tomorrow, I call a press conference, and I tell Mr. Beinfest that I'm not going to take his thuggery and I demand Morrison is recalled immediately. Are they going to option Stanton down too? How many bullets do they have? The problem is that most people don't have Morrison's kind of courage.

Now this is an outsider's view. I'd love to hear what Teal and Black thinks about this.

The notion that Sanchez blocks Morrison is, well....something that a bad front office comes up with.

Considering that the Marlins front office is an EXCELLENT front office, and they decided they wanted Gaby Sanchez at 1b over Logan Morrison I wouldn't say that the idea of Sanchez blocking Morrison is something a bad front office would think

Sanchez has been a better player this season, I don't really see a case that Morrison should be their starting 1B.

Not really. Sanchez is +11 hitting, Morrison is +7 in 90 fewer PA (or separated by just 2 points of OPS+). The difference is predominantly defense and a little playing time -- but that's no surprise given Morrison is a 1B playing LF while Sanchez is a 1B playing 1B. Move Morrison to 1B and Sanchez to LF and let's see what that does to their respective values. Also note that while Sanchez is rated a good 1B this year, he was a bad one last year (using b-r) so it's not like there's particularly good reason to think Sanchez is a better-fielding 1B than Morrison.

And so what? The Marlins are out of it and Morrison is 4 years younger than Sanchez. If you decided neither can play LF, there's no way you don't choose Morrison over Sanchez for 1B. OK, if you can trade Morrison for heaps but you can't trade Sanchez for heaps, then you consider trading Morrison.

One thing I find puzzling is why the Marlins are obliged to help one of their young players reach free agency sooner rather than later. Is there some provision in the CBA that allows for a grievance to be filed in this kind of matter? If your 21 year old 2bman in AAA is hitting 300/400/500 in May 2011 after putting up those numbers in AAA in 2010, and the 2bmen on your ML roster, making 1m apiece on one year deals are hitting 200/250/300, and to top it off you're already 15 games out, are you obliged to bring up the youngster from AAA?

I assume not, even though everyone knows you're avoiding starting the minor leaguer's service clock. And if there's no grievance likely in the hypothetical case I mentioned, why should a grievance be successful in the actual case with Morrison? In fact, other than pissing players off, why can't the Marlins, once they're out of the race, send down all their young guys? It'd probably kill them for various reasons in the long run, and I'd loathe Loria even more, but what would be the grounds to stop them?

The official mouthpiece of the Marlins published this curiously timed article yesterday afternoon.

Key metrics revealed in it include this gem from Trader Jack: "Fifty percent difference or maybe 100 percent difference," McKeon said of how much Sanchez has improved.

You don't suppose that the Marlins' EXCELLENT front office is reading this thread, do you?

Considering that the Marlins front office is an EXCELLENT front office, and they decided they wanted Gaby Sanchez at 1b over Logan Morrison I wouldn't say that the idea of Sanchez blocking Morrison is something a bad front office would think

Which is why it surprised me.

The article in #65 says that instead of Helms and Morrison they're using...Jose Lopez and Ozzie Martinez.

Yep, two staples of the next ####### awesome Marlins team.

Move the ####### franchise already.

EDIT: Oh, one more thing: re: 64 - I don't see how anything they did player-personnel-wise would hurt the Marlins. This is a team that has virtually no fans, yet nobody in Bud's office even hints at contraction.

It would seem kinda rude to hint at contraction when you just got the government to build you a free stadium.

No way they get contracted with the new stadium coming online. Also, shame on the voters of Miami for allowing their elected reps to hand $360mm to Jeff Loria.

Which is kinda my point. Bud lets this BS thrive.

Sounds like the Colby Rasmus Cardinals situation... I didn't know that TLR was also the manager of the Marlins.

Yeah, I was just wondering if Anthopoulos would take advantage of this situation to snap up Morrison. You think the Marlins would get along with Edwin Encarnacion any better? Jon Rauch?

Hanley has a history of loafing. But would he have become a loafer in Boston, where the fans would have excoriated him if he tried that?

the marlins aren't moving anywhere because they have a new stadium that won't nobody go to there neither

bud WANTS this - it gets more $$$ for the owner, he doesn't CARE if fans go or not. bud is ONLY about making more money for the owners by screwing ballplayers/taxpayers. it's his JOB. owners make money keeping the payroll low by the MLBAM/broadcast/yankees/redsox/phils welfare $$$. bud knows it and him and the rest of the owners and espn/fox WANT it that way

this is all about the Organization deciding that everyone needs to be hanley ramirez fluffer and you don't fluff you are toast

logan is having his ass kicked for refusing to fluff hanley, doing stuff like forgetting to talk only from bull durham cards and forgetting the fact that MOST baseball fans (see half the guys on this page) don't think that ballplayers especially rookies have any business saying ANYTHING to the media except, well, i just put a good swing on it - well, we gotta take it one day at a time. why the thing about why rookies have to act like beaten Dogs and slink around i do not get except it is a male thing i guess

i remember all the shtt when matt kemp or anyone else who came up and didn't go along with the pretending he is a piece of crap just lucky to be there staring in awe at the major leaguers "going about their business" - he got talked about like how he was this terrible person for daring to act like he belonged there and not kissing crappy worn out no good anymore veteran ass

...so it's not like there's particularly good reason to think Sanchez is a better-fielding 1B than Morrison.
My reading of ZiPS had Sanchez about 6-7 runs better than Morrison at first going into the season, which seems about right to me.

Long run, I'd rather have Morrison than Sanchez but, between the weak recent performance and the attitude (this is not simply Morrison v. Hanley), I think demoting him is a good move. LoMo seems like he needs to get taken down a peg (better to nip that stuff in the bud sooner than later, if possible), it could save some salary down the road, and it's not a move that will cost them this year. Could've been handled better by Florida, though...

this is not simply Morrison v. Hanley

No, it's not. Since the start of the season, Morrison has fired on Sabean/Posey and the Marlins FO, in addition to twice calling out Hanley, just in the items linked here.

There hasn't been this much talk about "overexposure" and "Morrison" by the powers that be since the ill-fated Doors concert in Miami in 1969.

I guess there's just something compelling about a guy being successful in the bigs while being completely candid about everything.

I agree with Der-K in #74. There are not only baseball-related reasons for Morrison's demotion (213/285/408 since the end of May) but when you look at Beinfest's statement ("he needs to work on all aspects of being a Major Leaguer") it's clear that the Marlins aren't happy with Morrison's off-field actions, either. Of course, if Morrison had been performing better on the field, he might have had more leeway off the field, but I think that Beinfest's actions here are certainly defensible.

I don't see how Morrison can win a grievance, nor do I expect the MLBPA to file one.

-- MWE

They're just giving the kid a chance to win.

Also, shame on the voters of Miami for allowing their elected reps to hand $360mm to Jeff Loria.

They didn't "allow" it, in fact they recalled the mayor a few months ago...

They didn't "allow" it, in fact they recalled the mayor a few months ago...

Yep...too bad they still have to put up with the ####### results.

I think demoting him is a good move. LoMo seems like he needs to get taken down a peg (better to nip that stuff in the bud sooner than later, if possible), it could save some salary down the road, and it's not a move that will cost them this year. Could've been handled better by Florida, though...

How can this be a good move? This isn't nipping anything in the bud it's creating a permanent problem. I can't see any circumstance where Morrison plays for them on a regular basis again. People with pride don't forget this kind of thing. He's going to carry this bitterness until they trade him. If he channels his anger and they call him up and he plays well, he's still going to be angry all the time which will lead to future fights with management. If they call him up and he's pissed off and can't focus he'll play bad. He's never going to admit that he was wrong because he wasn't wrong. Either way they just flushed his future with them down the toilet. This is a lose-lose situation and there is no scenario where the Marlins come out ahead.

I don't see how Morrison can win a grievance, nor do I expect the MLBPA to file one.

If the players can't win this kind of grievance then they can't win any kind of grievance. They are making an example out of player to prove a point. This is exactly why unions exist.

Gaelan, I think you've got this 100% backwards.

If the players can't win this kind of grievance then they can't win any kind of grievance. They are making an example out of player to prove a point. This is exactly why unions exist.
The uniform player contract gives teams a lot of leeway in this regard - I can't see how Morrison would have much of a leg to stand on.
Put another way, if players could win this grievance - why do you never see it filed?

How can this be a good move? This isn't nipping anything in the bud it's creating a permanent problem. I can't see any circumstance where Morrison plays for them on a regular basis again.
This is far from the first time teams have sent a player to the minors in part (here, in large part) for off-field reasons. Normally, the two sides get over it. If Morrison doesn't/can't, doesn't that validate some of the concerns the Fish have about him?

***
I guess there's just something compelling about a guy being successful in the bigs while being completely candid about everything.
I like candid (not that the Marlins necessarily should, but whatever), but I've got the distinct impression over the last year-plus that this guy is a ####.

The problem is he has no off-field concerns. He wasn't sent down for partying too much or for getting into a fight or any actual off-field concern. He was sent down because he didn't go to a team function and they wanted to put him in his place. He is being picked on by bullies. That isn't the kind of thing someone gets over. He has no power in this situation so he has to bend over and take it but being ###### in the ass isn't the kind of thing a person forgets. Because he's not allowed to look for another team all he can do is nurse his anger. I can't imagine a situation in which he is called up and isn't still angry, moreso for having no outlet for it.

Normally, the two sides get over it. If Morrison doesn't/can't, doesn't that validate some of the concerns the Fish have about him?

But that's a catch-22. The player only gets over it when he realizes he is wrong. Since Morrison isn't wrong there is nothing for him to get over. Being angry at being unjustly persecuted doesn't validate the injustice in the first place.

Put another way, if players could win this grievance - why do you never see it filed?

Well, this is a pretty egregious example. I can't think of any that are worse.

I like candid (not that the Marlins necessarily should, but whatever), but I've got the distinct impression over the last year-plus that this guy is a ####.

This is the source of disagreement. From all accounts Hanley Ramirez is a lazy piece of crap and Morrison called him that. Good for him.

The problem is he has no off-field concerns. He wasn't sent down for partying too much or for getting into a fight or any actual off-field concern. He was sent down because he didn't go to a team function and they wanted to put him in his place. He is being picked on by bullies.

[slaps forehead]

You do know that the Marlins have been frustrated with him for quite awhile, right? This isn't about some team function....

From all accounts Hanley Ramirez is a lazy piece of crap and Morrison called him that.
Who's defending Hanley?

Well, this is a pretty egregious example. I can't think of any that are worse.
Clearly, we disagree here.

On the other hand, it has to be possible to send a guy down who's acting like an #######. If you can make clear to him the reasons there are certainly players who eventually 'get it'. If Morrison is of the opinion that he can behave any way he wants, why is keeping him on the ML team less likely to result in the scenarios Gaelan describes?

Speaking of "fluffing", are you sure you want to do your small bit to bring into common parlance the word used for giving an actor in a pornographic movie an erection so that he can play out a scene?

We have enough wits on this site that someone is going to remember the origin of "knock your socks off" but, still... think of your children!

From all accounts Hanley Ramirez is a lazy piece of crap and Morrison called him that. Good for him.

Rule #1 in team sports is that you don't rubbish your teammates in public, keep it in the club house.

I think Gaelen is beating Der Komminsk-sar on points, of course I get the distinct impression that both have taken the sides they have taken because of how they feel about LoMo before this happened.

I think Gaelen is right in that this was basically a power move by the powers that be with the Marlins, they don't like LoMo's mouth- oh sure there are some on field justifications- but you have to be hopelessly naive to think LoMo's on field performance is why he was demoted.

That being said, I don't think he can win a grievance... I think that given his service time the Marlins have the power to demote LoMo for just about any damn old reason*, including simply "because." Is this a smart move by the Marlins? I don't think so, basically he's being punished for running his mouth- and I cant for the life of me see where his mouth running has risen to anything worse than annoying.

*There are exceptions but I don't think any are applicable

He is being picked on by bullies. That isn't the kind of thing someone gets over. He has no power in this situation so he has to bend over and take it but being ###### in the ass isn't the kind of thing a person forgets. Because he's not allowed to look for another team all he can do is nurse his anger. I can't imagine a situation in which he is called up and isn't still angry, moreso for having no outlet for it.

Being picked on implies that the Marlins are just doing this for shits and giggles. They aren't. LoMo isn't some blameless little angel here. He's been an anti-team player every step of the way, and the Marlins decided it was enough, and it was time to send him a signal. He clearly wasn't going to stop being a clubhouse cancer on his own.

Yes the signal they sent was very much 'we can #### you in the ass whenever we want'. But I don't understand how you can think that this isn't a powerful signal. Maybe LoMo might realize, 'damn if I keep acting like a bitch, I'll keep getting ###### in the ass, maybe I shold tone it down a bit'. People who got ###### in the ass tend to want to find ways to not repeat that experience.

And if he doesn't get the signal, then so what? His upside is Milton Bradley, which is great if you just get the baseball player. But if he brings along his friends drama and high maintenance, he's more of a headache than he's worth.

Hanley 1, LoMo 0. If you're going to talk like you're the centerpiece of the team, you damn well better play like it. Morrison hasn't, and the message needed to be sent. Smart move on the Marlins' part.

Yeah, the writer of the original comment hasn't followed much baseball this year.

The writer of the original comment has followed baseball, and Logan Morrison, plenty this year. Dude's pretty much tanked my fantasy team the last couple of months.

Did you actually read what he said? "What we don’t have is experience and a veteran who is in the lineup every day that can be an anchor for us. We don’t have it…. He’s not there every game. It’s 162 games. It’s not a 100-game season."

Hanley's games played from 2006-2010: 158, 154, 153, 151, 142

Say what you want about Ramirez, but he's been in the lineup plenty until this year, when he has played horribly and he's complained of severe back and shoulder pain. I don't know, maybe he really is hurt. You know who else doesn't know if Hanley is hurt? Logan Morrison.

I think Gaelen is beating Der Komminsk-sar on points

Apparently, taking the "honestly, isn't this self evident?" route is insufficient. Fine.


There are two different concerns here.

1) Can the Marlins do this?

My argument is (generally) that teams have pretty free reign to demote players at will, short of service time considerations (upon accruing enough time, you can't be demoted without consent). Were this not the case, people would argue for a greivance along these lines somewhat frequently. Short of accepting that, the Marlins can, at minimum, hang their hat on articles 3b/c of the uniform player contract (this would be for missing the team function). This, however, is beside the point (imo). He's signed to a (defacto) split contract, they may send him to the minors as they wish.
JSLF, you seem to agree with this.

2) Is it wise?

Well, my argument here doesn't rely on bullies f****** people in the a**, so this may be a tougher sell.

I find unfathomable the notion that demoting Morrison necessarily irrevocably corrupts the relationship between team and player (or the implication that everything would be fine between them if they didn't take some action). We already know everything wasn't fine between them - Morrison and the club had bumped heads over the firing of the team's hitting coach (Logan was not unique in this), over how he dealt with the whole Posey thing, repeated calling out of Hanley (for better or worse, right or wrong (I think a bit of both)), and his use of Twitter (his Twitter icon is of his head, Marlins cap perch on top, with a 'censored' strip over his mouth) among other things. Here's a Beinfest quote:

“We just thought it was in the best interest for Logan to go down and work on some things,” Beinfest told Miami-area reporters Sunday. “Just needs to concentrate on baseball and all aspects of being a major leaguer and work his way back. I think there’s a place and time for everybody in the game. I think there’s a lot of unwritten rules, a lot of quote-unquote ‘respect in the game.’ Again, I’m not speaking specifically about Logan, but there are those things out there.”

I'm taking that at face value. This guy has been a below average major leaguer the last few months (June on: .213/.285/.408 - selective endpoints sure (I'm not making a true talent or 'why he struggling argument', just noting that he is) and a pain in the butt to some of the higher ups. Were he hitting .280, or fielding well (not it's not his fault he's in left, but he's not a particularly good fielder anywhere), or finding ways to get on - you might let it go. But, if he's young enough to matter going forward and he's got off-field issues that you think can improve through a public action like this (if this happened to me, I'd be embarrased as hell and ask myself what did I do to f*** this up - then not do that again. Granted, my temperment isn't that of most pro ball players.) Isn't it better to move aggressively after other methods have failed now than have him develop into a good player / possible clubhouse problem and trade him at a discount a la Rasmus. (cfb - this is exactly what I said the Cards should have done years ago if they thought it was such a big problem ... I don't know why you persist in your TLR persecution dreams.) If he doesn't matter to the org going forward, trade or cut him - if does, get him in line with your corporate values.
[As an added bonus, you save some money going forward by doing this, but that's obviously not a reason to take this course of action.]

I think Gaelen is right in that this was basically a power move by the powers that be with the Marlins, they don't like LoMo's mouth- oh sure there are some on field justifications- but you have to be hopelessly naive to think LoMo's on field performance is why he was demoted.

Sure - I don't think that's in doubt. So, why did you think they did it - just to bully some fearless speaker of truths? Morrison is a fan favorite, sure, I don't think he's a favorite in the locker room...

I am on Der K's side.

I don't buy Gaelan's black and white dissection of this, or the idea that no good could possibly come of it. Why not?

And if I were Morrison's boss, I would be very angry with him for talking #### about his coworker to the media/public. Even if I privately knew that his criticism was spot on.

Re 91 and 92 by saying that Galen was winning on points I meant his version was closer but by no means do I see it as a knockout or in black and white as he does

I think the marlins have the authority to do what they did I just don't think it was wise

Where does the idea that Morrison is some kind of clubhouse cancer come from? I haven't seen anything to that effect. If true, that would change things. Der K's quote from Beinfest is the right one to focus on. I take it at face value too. It is the same old "respect" euphemism which means do as I say and shut your mouth. It's the kind of thing that is twisted by those with authority to abuse those new to the system. From what I've seen Morrison tries hard, is never late, and stands up for his teammates. He publicly called out Sabean when Sabean deserved to be called out. Where was Beinfest when Cousins needed someone to stand behind him? Where is the respect in that?

As to the irreparable damage I'm basing this on my own personality which is a lot like Morrison's. There would be no going back from this. Once I was talked off the ledge I might quiet down for a little while out of self-preservation but I don't think I'd ever get over it. He wasn't a cancer now but I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes one. What is he supposed to say to other guys in the organization? "Keep your mouth shut or they will #### you." That isn't the kind or organizational mood that inspires loyalty. And even if you think loyalty is overated everyone performs better when they believe in the larger good. How can any Marlins player believe in the the greater good of the team after this. If they have their eyes open they will see that it is a dog eat dog world and they better look out for themselves and not care about anything else. Now you have 25 clubhouse cancers. They've handled this the worst possible way. The Marlins need to pay attention to Machiavelli here. You treat people well or you kill them. There is no in between. Publicly humiliating someone only makes you an enemy for life.

As for the grievance what about Wes Helms. While his performance was terrible the circumstantial evidence that he was released for his actions as the union rep is very strong. If union reps don't have some kind of protection why would anyone agree to be a union rep when it is so easy for a vindictive organization like the Marlins to target you.

I think the marlins have the authority to do what they did I just don't think it was wise
That's how I took your comment - I was just offended (not actually offended, but moved to type a screed) in the sense that you might have thought his argument was reasonable (I think it's pretty bad, to be honest*), not in that you might think that was a tactical error by the Marlins (from my limited vantage point, I disagree, but it's certainly a reasonable thing to think and I think that you're a reasonable guy regardless).

* not meant as a personal dig at you, Gaelan - I'm definitely cool w/ you, I just thought your post was kind of off the handle

[Reads 94]
Ah, now we're on much more common ground. (Phew - I don't like being genuinely disagreeable.)

From what I can gather (Marlins fans who know more, chime in): the book on him is: hard worker, kind of a big mouth, some entitlement issues - that can rub people the wrong way. I (naively) bet that teammates have less issues with him than Hanley, but this isn't about Hanley.

It is the same old "respect" euphemism which means do as I say and shut your mouth.
That is, for better and worse, management's call. As a member of labor, it's then Morrison's prerogative to do as he's told or face the consequences. I have not heard that Florida's is particularly heavy-handed about this stuff (indeed, Hanley has gotten away with things in the past (imo), though there is the issue that's he's reportedly a favorite of the owner. This could be a problem, but that's, again, a somewhat separate issue). Florida was, as I understand it, more lax than other teams pre-McKeon. (Can't speak as well for the current era.)

He publicly called out Sabean when Sabean deserved to be called out.
Really not Morrison's job.

That isn't the kind or organizational mood that inspires loyalty.
Well, are they doing this to everybody or are they doing it to one guy with whom they've had repeated issues? If they thought he was the sort of guy who couldn't take this kind of action, they either shouldn't/wouldn't have done this and probably should have dealt / should deal him for 90 cents on the dollar instead of 70. In any case, the lack of an uproar from his teammates (and, yes, they have an incentive not to speak up) suggests that they might not be too disapproving of the move.
To be clear, that doesn't make it the right choice in and of itself. When the Braves dumped Escobar, I was disappointed/upset even though his ex-mates seemed happy to see him go. While it was no sure thing that he'd improve like he did, there was no way that that move would be a winner on paper.

As to: Publicly humiliating someone only makes you an enemy for life.
I generally subscribe to the time heals all wounds school, with it happening faster for some than others. Even if Morrison is slow to cool on this, I doubt it's going to completely poison the well. (And, again, if he is that kind of guy - they should know that before that they choose to do / not do this.) I guess we'll see.

Helms: I think that's an interesting facet of this that I'd like to know more about. Incidentally, isn't the turnover rate with union reps really high (meaning that they get traded/released/etc...)? This is golden research material for somebody...

FWIW, I LIKE Morrison. I really do. He seems like a brash, aggressive player and personality but not an #######, I'm ok with that, but Gaelan's line of argument is completely ridiculous.

As for the grievance, if you allow grievances based on this kind of thing you're really hamstringing a baseball team's ability to make any kind of subjective baseball move. Was this drama the impetus for Helms' release and Morrison's demotion? Yeah, maybe. But how is that provable to ANY extent. Helms is a washed up has been hitting .190. Do you really want to set a precedent that teams can't cut .190 hitters if they are union reps? I'm not sure how one could say releasing Helms wasn't completely justified for baseball reasons.
Morrison was a better player, but still a young guy having a middling year. This isn't Albert Pujols being sent to Quad Cities. If Morrison's performance being a

What really gets me is this though:

The problem is [Morrison] has no off-field concerns. He wasn't sent down for partying too much or for getting into a fight or any actual off-field concern.

SAYS WHO?! There are tons of off-the-field things that don't make the press. Would it really be better for Beinfest to air whatever dirty laundry Morrison has to the media?

Helms: I think that's an interesting facet of this that I'd like to know more about. Incidentally, isn't the turnover rate with union reps really high (meaning that they get traded/released/etc...)? This is golden research material for somebody...

2006 union reps
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060816&content_id=1612881&vkey=news_mlb&fext;=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Looking at the 2006 list I can't find anything suspicious. Some reps were bad players who washed out or talented guys who blew their arms to shreds (Jay Gibbons, Mike Maroth, Josh Paul, Chris Reitsma, John Patterson), some guys are still with their teams (Konerko, Rollins, Youkilis, Cuddyer) or left for obviously baseball only reasons (Teixera, Lackey) and others were journeymen players who keep moving around the league, as many players of their mediocre caliber tend to (Aaron Heilman, Will Ohman, 38 year old Kenny Lofton)

NOTE: I'm only using 2006 because it was the only complete list to easily come up in quick Google search