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Thursday, February 28, 2019

Switch-pitcher Venditte figures rule change won’t hurt him

SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. (AP) — Pat Venditte figures he has an advantage if Major League Baseball and the players’ association adopt a three-batter minimum for pitchers starting in 2020: the 33-year-old reliever is a switch-pitcher.

The rule, if adopted, might cause less use of left-handed relief specialists. That could benefit Venditte, who has made 56 appearances over three big-league seasons and is at his first spring training with the San Francisco Giants.

“As long as I’m executing pitches and getting guys out, that would be beneficial from a split standpoint,” Venditte said Wednesday. “The only thing that would throw that off would be a switch-hitter, obviously. Then I’d be just like anybody else. You could still have them go from their weaker side. If I’m doing my job, it would be advantageous to me.”

Does this make BOOGYs the new market inefficiency?

QLE Posted: February 28, 2019 at 07:44 AM | 25 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: pat venditte, rule changes, switch pitchers

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   1. bobm Posted: February 28, 2019 at 10:03 AM (#5819011)
Rule 5.07

(f) Ambidextrous Pitchers

A pitcher must indicate visually to the umpire-in-chief, the batter and any runners the hand with which he intends to pitch, which may be done by wearing his glove on the other hand while touching the pitcher’s plate. The pitcher is not permitted to pitch with the other hand until the batter is retired, the batter becomes a runner, the inning ends, the batter is substituted for by a pinch-hitter or the pitcher incurs an injury. In the event a pitcher switches pitching hands during an at-bat because he has suffered an injury, the pitcher may not, for the remainder of the game, pitch with the hand from which he has switched. The pitcher shall not be given the opportunity to throw any preparatory pitches after switching pitching hands. Any change of pitching hands must be indicated clearly to the umpire-in-chief.
   2. Karl from NY Posted: February 28, 2019 at 02:45 PM (#5819165)
I hate that rule. I think it should be the other way around. The batter is the one who has to physically pick a box to stand in. The pitcher should be able to deliver the ball using whatever body parts he damn well desires.

I get it reflects the idea the offense gets last say in things like multiple PH/RP switches, but I still disagree.
   3. Walt Davis Posted: February 28, 2019 at 04:43 PM (#5819266)
I didn't put my two cents in on the other thread so let me put my vote in now ... I think a 3-batter rule is too much and that a 2-batter rule is generally sufficient to accomplish what's wanted. If a team still wants to double up LHB in their lineup, then that's on them.
   4. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 28, 2019 at 04:57 PM (#5819279)
I didn't put my two cents in on the other thread so let me put my vote in now ... I think a 3-batter rule is too much and that a 2-batter rule is generally sufficient to accomplish what's wanted. If a team still wants to double up LHB in their lineup, then that's on them.

I'd like a 6 batter rule.
   5. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: February 28, 2019 at 05:10 PM (#5819283)
Put me down for you get one free mid-inning change per game, and otherwise you can't remove a pitcher mid-inning unless he's given up a run in the current inning.
   6. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: February 28, 2019 at 05:39 PM (#5819304)
Now I'm not as well versed as many of you are on the rule book but am I the only one who is quite stunned by the fact that they actually have a rule covering ambidextrous pitchers? That seems like one of the most obsure things ever.

   7. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: February 28, 2019 at 06:03 PM (#5819311)
Now I'm not as well versed as many of you are on the rule book but am I the only one who is quite stunned by the fact that they actually have a rule covering ambidextrous pitchers? That seems like one of the most obsure things ever.


It was created specifically because the first time Venditte faced a switch hitter, both of them switched back and forth until the umpire forced them to stay in some position. Soon after the game, the new rule was added to the book. There are plenty of other rules motivated by a single occurrence. Iirc, the rule that a pitcher may not move to another position and then back to pitch in the same inning was because one time a manager had a left handed and right handed reliever and had them switching back and forth for matchups, which they could do since neither ever got replaced on the field.
   8. Karl from NY Posted: February 28, 2019 at 06:03 PM (#5819312)
#6, they made the rule specifically for Venditte.

And I will make a carbonated beverage specifically for #7.
   9. bobm Posted: February 28, 2019 at 07:26 PM (#5819335)
From Wikipedia

His initial assignment was to the Staten Island Yankees of the Class-A Short-Season New York–Penn League.[14] On June 19, 2008, in his first minor league appearance with Staten Island against the Brooklyn Cyclones, Venditte pitched a scoreless ninth inning for a Yankees win. Before Venditte faced the last Cyclone batter, Ralph Henriquez, a switch-hitter, upon choosing to bat left- or right-handed (with Venditte subsequently choosing to pitch with the same hand), Henriquez would then go to the other side of the plate (and adjust his shin guard—which is worn on the front leg when a batter takes his stance) to regain the advantage. After this had happened several times the teams appealed to the umpiring crew, which ruled that the batter must first select from which side of the plate he intended to hit, and that the pitcher would then be allowed to declare with which arm he would pitch (the Venditte Rule, adopted several weeks later by the umpires' association, would make the opposite determination and preserve the traditional right of a switch-hitter to choose an opposite-handed match-up). Venditte subsequently struck out Henriquez, who slammed his bat against the dirt, to end the game.
   10. PepTech Posted: February 28, 2019 at 07:26 PM (#5819336)
Yes, but with which hand will you serve that beverage?
   11. bobm Posted: February 28, 2019 at 07:29 PM (#5819338)
There are plenty of other rules motivated by a single occurrence. Iirc, the rule that a pitcher may not move to another position and then back to pitch in the same inning was because one time a manager had a left handed and right handed reliever and had them switching back and forth for matchups, which they could do since neither ever got replaced on the field.

Mets Reds, July 22, 1986. Great great game
   12. bobm Posted: February 28, 2019 at 07:35 PM (#5819340)
Jaffe: Silver anniversary: Davey Johnson runs out of players

A quarter century ago, Mets manager Davey Johnson got stuck in an unenviable position: He ran out of position players before he ran out of game. Ejections and pinch hits forced him to get creative, as the Mets somehow managed to prevail over the Reds in 14 innings. ...

So Carter at third, and Hearn at the backstop. Who replaces Mitchell in the outfield?

Here’s where Johnson gets really creative. He has a southpaw pitcher in the game right now in Orosco. And he’s got a right-handed reliever he really trusts ready to go in Roger McDowell.

So let’s platoon them. When Orosco is the better match-up, he’ll take the mound against lefties, and McDowell will patrol the outfield. And then McDowell will face righties with Orosco in the outfield.

Johnson takes the platooning a step further. Since Orosco will face lefties, he’ll put McDowell in left field where the ball is less likely to be hit. Following similar logic, Orosco will go in right field when McDowell is on the mound. Wilson will bounce around from corner to corner as need be.
   13. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 28, 2019 at 08:35 PM (#5819354)
I hate that rule. I think it should be the other way around. The batter is the one who has to physically pick a box to stand in. The pitcher should be able to deliver the ball using whatever body parts he damn well desires.

Completely agree. Once Venditte takes the mound, the batter should choose which side he wants to hit from. Penalizing the one guy who has made it as aswitch-pitcher is a dumb move. MLB should encourage him. Let's get Manfred to reconsider this.
   14. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 28, 2019 at 08:44 PM (#5819357)
Iirc, the rule that a pitcher may not move to another position and then back to pitch in the same inning was because one time a manager had a left handed and right handed reliever and had them switching back and forth for matchups, which they could do since neither ever got replaced on the field.


And that's a shame, because there isn't anything wrong with this.
   15. SoSH U at work Posted: February 28, 2019 at 09:04 PM (#5819361)
Completely agree. Once Venditte takes the mound, the batter should choose which side he wants to hit from. Penalizing the one guy who has made it as aswitch-pitcher is a dumb move. MLB should encourage him. Let's get Manfred to reconsider this.


I don't think it's a matter of penalizing. It's simply staying consistent. The offensive team gets the last call on PH/RP matters, thus they get the last call here.

But I'd gladly give up this particular nod to the offense if MLB would make both teams announce their starting pitchers first, then the opposing teams can counter with their lineups.

   16. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: February 28, 2019 at 11:47 PM (#5819398)
Johnson takes the platooning a step further. Since Orosco will face lefties, he’ll put McDowell in left field where the ball is less likely to be hit. Following similar logic, Orosco will go in right field when McDowell is on the mound. Wilson will bounce around from corner to corner as need be


Most fly balls are hit to the opposite field. Hits are more often pulled, so they’d get fewer plays where they’d have to scoop up a hit and return the ball to the infield, but they’d have to catch more fly balls (though I suppose oppo flies are typically lazy flies while pulled flies tend to be tougher plays). I also agree with Misirlou that this never should have been banned.
   17. Adam S Posted: March 01, 2019 at 04:08 AM (#5819411)
But I'd gladly give up this particular nod to the offense if MLB would make both teams announce their starting pitchers first, then the opposing teams can counter with their lineups.


Wouldn't that change just encourage further use of openers?
   18. SoSH U at work Posted: March 01, 2019 at 08:49 AM (#5819430)
Wouldn't that change just encourage further use of openers?


I don't see how. If your opponent announces that it's going with a righthanded opener instead of its scheduled lefthanded starter on regular rest (who, presumably, will still be pitching* innings 2-?), you can, if you'd like, shift your lineup so more of your lefthanded hitters get that free at bat with the platoon edge.

Teams may not choose to do so, for various reasons, but providing more information to the offensive team can't be anything but an advantage to the offense, and thus should reduce whatever incentive there is for the defensive team to use some kind of strategic maneuver.

* Moving your regular "starters" off rotation for a very-limited first-inning gambit doesn't strike me as a long-term sensible thing for the defensive team.
   19. Karl from NY Posted: March 01, 2019 at 10:30 AM (#5819456)
Teams may not choose to do so, for various reasons, but providing more information to the offensive team can't be anything but an advantage to the offense, and thus should reduce whatever incentive there is for the defensive team to use some kind of strategic maneuver.


The missing piece of that argument is that the strategic maneuver is to delay/deny information to the offensive team. The team may be pitching an opener for one inning or may intend to leave him in as a regular starting pitcher.
   20. Karl from NY Posted: March 01, 2019 at 10:35 AM (#5819460)
I also agree with Misirlou that this never should have been banned.


I'm not so sure. I could see some overenthusiastic tinkerer, some modern equivalent of Tony La Russa, doing this as a matter of course and making every 8th inning take twice as long and making a mess of all the scorecards and boxscores. It's funny when it happens once but there's a not insignificant danger of it turning into the last two minutes of NBA games.
   21. Nasty Nate Posted: March 01, 2019 at 10:43 AM (#5819462)
The team may be pitching an opener for one inning or may intend to leave him in as a regular starting pitcher.
It depends. The Rays gave Diego Castillo and Sergio Romo some starts last year. They are pure relievers who at most will pitch 2 innings.
   22. SoSH U at work Posted: March 01, 2019 at 11:06 AM (#5819469)
The missing piece of that argument is that the strategic maneuver is to delay/deny information to the offensive team. The team may be pitching an opener for one inning or may intend to leave him in as a regular starting pitcher.


If the announced starting pitcher is a short reliever, he's not likely to be going 2+ innings.

If he's some kind of swing guy, you factor that into your decision making as well.

In every case, by making the defensive team announce the starting pitcher before the offensive team has to turn in its lineup, you're giving the offensive team more information than they have now.



   23. RoyalFlush Posted: March 01, 2019 at 11:17 AM (#5819474)
I'm not so sure. I could see some overenthusiastic tinkerer, some modern equivalent of Tony La Russa, doing this as a matter of course and making every 8th inning take twice as long and making a mess of all the scorecards and boxscores. It's funny when it happens once but there's a not insignificant danger of it turning into the last two minutes of NBA games.


Just as some folks enjoy watching position players pitch - I kind of enjoy seeing a pitcher out there trying to field a position every now and then.

Couldn't this potentially be a time saving thing - as compared to what currently happens with 13-pitcher staffs and no rules governing changes? If the players are already in the game, they're not executing pitching changes - they're just "shifting" sort of.
   24. Greg Pope Posted: March 01, 2019 at 12:33 PM (#5819494)
It was created specifically because the first time Venditte faced a switch hitter

I remember hearing about this rule when Greg Harris switch pitched in 1995. But it's possible that it wasn't an official rule then, just a policy or something.
   25. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: March 01, 2019 at 06:32 PM (#5819602)
I agree with Greg; I am certain I heard about this situation before and they came to some understanding that the pitcher has to choose first. It was before Venditte I am certain.

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