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Monday, September 27, 2021

TB progressing with Montreal Sister City plan

While expressing club officials’ desire to be “very considerate” about keeping their focus on the field, Rays president Matt Silverman revealed the team will soon be “more visible and more vocal” regarding its Sister City plan to split future seasons between the Tampa Bay area and Montreal.

During an interview on the This Week in Rays Baseball pregame radio show, Silverman said the Rays will unveil a sign representing the plan at Tropicana Field during the playoffs.

“For the postseason, we’re going to add a sign in the right-field foul territory with a very simple Tampa Bay Montreal graphic. Especially with the eyes of baseball on us this October, we want that visible symbol of our plan and our excitement for it,” Silverman said during his radio interview. “It’ll mark the effort subtly and keep the focus on winning and winning games in October and getting to that final game, maybe, and finally winning it for the first time in franchise history.”

The Rays first unveiled the Sister City concept in June 2019, when Major League Baseball’s executive council granted the club permission to explore the possibility of playing a schedule with home games split between the Tampa Bay area and Montreal. At the time, Commissioner Rob Manfred said the plan would aim to “preserve baseball in Tampa, but improve the economics of the club overall by playing some of their games in Montreal.”

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 27, 2021 at 01:17 PM | 63 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: montreal, rays

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   1. bfan Posted: September 27, 2021 at 02:12 PM (#6041939)
I think this is a great idea. For a small city like Tampa Bay, 81 home games is a boatload of tickets to sell. Drop that to 60 or 40 (I do not know how many games Montreal would get), and i doubt you get that much of a loss in tickets. Also, you spend summers at home in Montreal, and the spring and the fall in Tampa Bay, getting the better weather for both locals.
   2. The Duke Posted: September 27, 2021 at 02:17 PM (#6041942)
I agree - this might work
   3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 27, 2021 at 02:22 PM (#6041945)
I think this would have a much better chance of success if you had two cities in the same region, like Charlotte and Nashville.

The main problem, is you'll always be playing in sub-par facilities. You're not going to get the same stadium built for 40 games, and you would for 80.
   4. SoSH U at work Posted: September 27, 2021 at 02:36 PM (#6041951)
Has it worked anywhere it's been tried?

Even the places that once played a few home games in another location (Green Bay in Milwaukee and the Celtics in Hartford) stopped doing it.

   5. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: September 27, 2021 at 02:50 PM (#6041954)
The Fighters play (or maybe played? I'm not sure if it's still a thing) some of their home games in Sapporo and some of their games in Tokyo.
   6. Jaack Posted: September 27, 2021 at 02:53 PM (#6041956)
Yeah I can't see this working all that well. Literally having one foot out the door can't he a good way to draw people into the Trop and I can't imagine Montreal will be happy with just half a team on a long term basis.

If they were playing in Orlando or Jacksonville, I could see it, but this very much looks like a team gearing up to leave.
   7. Tom Nawrocki Posted: September 27, 2021 at 02:55 PM (#6041957)
The White Sox played ten games at County Stadium in Milwaukee in 1968. Surprisingly (at least to me), they didn't schedule whole series up there, just random games, such that they played the Angels in Chicago on May 14 and in Milwaukee on May 15.

After being in contention for most of the previous decade and a half, the Sox collapsed from 89-73 in 1967 to 67-95 on 1968. They went 1-9 in the games in Milwaukee.
   8. bfan Posted: September 27, 2021 at 02:57 PM (#6041958)
Even if it has never worked, every situation is unique. These are 2 smaller market cities that have proven to be a struggle in attendance and 81 (home games) is a bigger number than 7 (the NFL was playing 14 home games when Green Bay was splitting) or 41 (NBA).
   9. Mayor Blomberg Posted: September 27, 2021 at 03:33 PM (#6041965)
Basketball briefly had the KC-Omaha Kings And the Baltimore-Washington (or was it the Washington-Baltimore?) Bullets.
   10. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 27, 2021 at 03:51 PM (#6041969)
The Bills have played games in Toronto. The Jacksonville Jaguars seems to regularly play games in London.
   11. Paul d mobile Posted: September 27, 2021 at 03:59 PM (#6041972)
This seems like a colossal pain in the ass for the players. The two teams aren't even in the same country... navigating leases, bank accounts, etc, seems like a pain, and if I were the MLBPA, I'd ask for additional compensation for players on this team.
   12. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 27, 2021 at 04:03 PM (#6041975)
Well the players are already having to shuttle between Tampa and Durham on a regular basis, what's one more city.
   13. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 27, 2021 at 04:03 PM (#6041976)
This seems like a colossal pain in the ass for the players. The two teams aren't even in the same country... navigating leases, bank accounts, etc, seems like a pain, and if I were the MLBPA, I'd ask for additional compensation for players on this team.

The team could just pay for hotels in one of the cities. Why would they need separate bank accounts or anything else? You can withdraw money from your U.S. bank acct at a Canadian ATM, and your CCs work everywhere. The logistics aren't complicated, it's just that you're on the road 3/4 of the year.
   14. The Duke Posted: September 27, 2021 at 04:17 PM (#6041980)
The reason this could work is that you could optimize weather. Stay out of Montreal at the beginning and end of season and stay out of Tampa during the heat of the summer.

I suggested yesterday that this model could work for regions like the deep south or upper Midwest where you play 20 games in four places for instance. I don’t see why the stadium issues wouldn’t work. They build football stadiums for 8 games.

Attendance collapse had already begun pre-pandemic and May continue so creative ways to draw fans might be required.
   15. bfan Posted: September 27, 2021 at 04:21 PM (#6041984)
This seems like a colossal pain in the ass for the players. The two teams aren't even in the same country... navigating leases, bank accounts, etc, seems like a pain, and if I were the MLBPA, I'd ask for additional compensation for players on this team.

The team could just pay for hotels in one of the cities. Why would they need separate bank accounts or anything else? You can withdraw money from your U.S. bank acct at a Canadian ATM, and your CCs work everywhere. The logistics aren't complicated, it's just that you're on the road 3/4 of the year.


Yes, I am not sure this is this hard on anyone. And, to be clear, I am guessing they would split the games in large blocks. To me, ideally, it would be the first 25 games in Tampa Bay, then up to Montreal about June for the summer of their 40 games, and then back to Tampa Bay in September for 16 home games.
   16. crict Posted: September 27, 2021 at 04:33 PM (#6041988)
The plans I saw this weekend in Montreal media called for games in Tampa until early June, then Montreal the rest of the season. Playoffs alternating yearly. Also, new open air stadiums in both cities.
   17. Jay Seaver Posted: September 27, 2021 at 04:38 PM (#6041990)
The main problem, is you'll always be playing in sub-par facilities. You're not going to get the same stadium built for 40 games, and you would for 80.


I haven't seen what the current stadium plans in MTL are (the Quebec-based story I saw over the weekend exaggeratedly described it as "The Return of the Montreal Expos" and seemed to imply a project near Peel Basin, not far from Centre Bell), but truth be told, I half-suspect that a move there is closer to a done deal than anyone has reason to admit, since they're still a couple years away from officially being able to talk with anybody about the team building a stadium outside the Tampa area.

The move there just seems to make too much sense not to happen. There's a ready-made rivalry with Toronto, a sports network that badly needs programming, and during rough periods, you can probably keep attendance up with vacationing Torontonians/New Yorkers/New Englanders. I wouldn't be shocked if the team still played the first few series in St. Petersberg for a while - I went to the Jays/Sox exhibition there a few years back and would not recommend being in an outdoor stadium in late March/early April - but eventually they'll just be the Expos.
   18. winnipegwhip Posted: September 27, 2021 at 04:41 PM (#6041991)
"Wander Franco Travelling All-Stars and Motor Kings"
   19. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 27, 2021 at 04:53 PM (#6041997)
I don’t see why the stadium issues wouldn’t work. They build football stadiums for 8 games.
Montreal doesn’t seem to be that interested in building a state-of-the-art baseball stadium for local ownership; I’d be surprised if they’re willing to do much for out-of-town ownership that may just be using Montreal to get a better deal from Tampa-St. Petersburg. As mentioned in the other thread, the Rays appear to be trying to gin up a stadium competition, with the winner stabbing its ‘partner’ in the back to take all 81 games. The Rays only need one jurisdiction to take the bait, and although that may still be unlikely, it’s more likely than getting two new stadiums for one team.
   20. KronicFatigue Posted: September 27, 2021 at 04:54 PM (#6041998)
Yes, I am not sure this is this hard on anyone.


What about the players' families?
   21. SoSH U at work Posted: September 27, 2021 at 04:59 PM (#6042000)
The only thing I can see from this is as the first step in moving from Tampa to Montreal completely.
   22. bfan Posted: September 27, 2021 at 05:06 PM (#6042003)

What about the players' families?


I realize this is the internet, and there is a counter for everything, but goodness gracious, they just live out of an apartment furnished by the team either in Montreal or Tampa, their choice, and live out of their home the other time (or an apartment-the team will be able to arrange it).

But you know what is an even bigger, obvious point? Half the dang country, and all of Canada, is trying to get to Florida in the winter and spring, to escape the cold, and half of the south is trying to find a cool place for the summer to avoid the summer heat. This is a blessing and a feature, and not a bug.

In any event, do you know how any sales people and executives live on the road from Monday morning until Thursday afternoon. Once the pandemic subsides, so stand in a major airlines hub on a Thursday afternoon.

But what about their pets?
   23. SoSH U at work Posted: September 27, 2021 at 05:15 PM (#6042006)
Half the dang country, and all of Canada, is trying to get to Florida in the winter and spring, to escape the cold, and half of the south is trying to find a cool place for the summer to avoid the summer heat. This is a blessing and a feature, and not a bug.


Then Tampa must have much better attendance in April and May than July and August. Oh yeah, that doesn't happen.

This is not going to work.
   24. Walt Davis Posted: September 27, 2021 at 05:47 PM (#6042014)
Don't forget the Expos playing some games in Puerto Rico in those last couple of seasons. This is the sort of thing you'd think b-r would obsessively track but if they did, I can't find how many games the Expos played there. (I could dig through the boxscores if I was obsessive.)
   25. Snowboy Posted: September 27, 2021 at 06:07 PM (#6042019)
Expos played 22 "home" games in Puerto Rico in 2003 and 2004.
   26. Tony S Posted: September 27, 2021 at 06:57 PM (#6042030)
Basketball briefly had the KC-Omaha Kings And the Baltimore-Washington (or was it the Washington-Baltimore?) Bullets.


The Carolina Cougars in the ABA as well.

These kinds of arrangements don't seem to last very long. Eventually the stronger city usually prevails.

Montreal was a hot draw during the Carter-Dawson-Raines years. Tampa has never been, even with consistently competitive teams.
   27. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: September 27, 2021 at 07:48 PM (#6042034)
This is such an unbelievably crass and idiotic idea, even as MLB ownership cash grabs go, that of course it's going to happen under Rob Manfred's watch.
   28. SoSH U at work Posted: September 27, 2021 at 07:57 PM (#6042037)
These kinds of arrangements don't seem to last very long. Eventually the stronger city usually prevails.


Which, in the case of the Kansas City-Omaha Kings, was Sacramento.
   29. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: September 27, 2021 at 08:48 PM (#6042040)
I realize this is the internet, and there is a counter for everything, but goodness gracious, they just live out of an apartment furnished by the team either in Montreal or Tampa, their choice, and live out of their home the other time (or an apartment-the team will be able to arrange it).

But you know what is an even bigger, obvious point? Half the dang country, and all of Canada, is trying to get to Florida in the winter and spring, to escape the cold, and half of the south is trying to find a cool place for the summer to avoid the summer heat. This is a blessing and a feature, and not a bug.

In any event, do you know how any sales people and executives live on the road from Monday morning until Thursday afternoon. Once the pandemic subsides, so stand in a major airlines hub on a Thursday afternoon.

But what about their pets?


Do you really not see how much of a disruption this is for players with kids? School isn't out until June in most places, so even if you scheduled this in complete blocks, April, May, September in Tampa and June through August in Montreal (which I doubt they would do, since it's generally a bad idea to let your fanbase go three full months without seeing the team), you're probably still overlapping on both ends with some school time. And then you're asking your family to completely leave their homes and move to a separate place. Some families would be okay with this (and some already live in a separate place full-time, like many who reside in Arizona). Many wouldn't, especially if you're leaving behind extended family or a doctor that deals with a specific condition a family member has.

Baseball players want to see their families when they're home. And this makes them choose between missing their families and uprooting them for a large chunk of time. These guys are already on the road a ton; don't make it even harder to be there with their kids.
   30. Doug Jones threw harder than me Posted: September 27, 2021 at 08:58 PM (#6042042)
IIRC The Homestead Grays split their season for many years between Pittsburgh and Washington, D.C.
   31. NattyBoh Posted: September 27, 2021 at 09:17 PM (#6042045)
Taxes are higher in Quebec than Florida.
   32. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: September 27, 2021 at 09:26 PM (#6042048)
Serious questions:
1) Would the team wear a different uniform in Montreal?
2) Would they still be called the Rays in Montreal?

Because if and when they move permanently to Montreal, they've got to be called the Expos!
   33. greenback used to say live and let live Posted: September 27, 2021 at 09:40 PM (#6042049)
The Carolina Cougars in the ABA as well.

The Virginia Squires played in semi-random locations that had something to do with the commonwealth of Virginia.
   34. NattyBoh Posted: September 27, 2021 at 10:20 PM (#6042052)
But what about their pets?


Remember poor Mark Buehrle who couldn't bring his dog to Toronto?
   35. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 27, 2021 at 10:30 PM (#6042053)
Do you really not see how much of a disruption this is for players with kids? School isn't out until June in most places, so even if you scheduled this in complete blocks, April, May, September in Tampa and June through August in Montreal (which I doubt they would do, since it's generally a bad idea to let your fanbase go three full months without seeing the team), you're probably still overlapping on both ends with some school time. And then you're asking your family to completely leave their homes and move to a separate place. Some families would be okay with this (and some already live in a separate place full-time, like many who reside in Arizona). Many wouldn't, especially if you're leaving behind extended family or a doctor that deals with a specific condition a family member has.

Baseball players want to see their families when they're home. And this makes them choose between missing their families and uprooting them for a large chunk of time. These guys are already on the road a ton; don't make it even harder to be there with their kids.


Most players don't live full-time in the city they play. This is a difference ion degree, not in kind. If they really want their families with them full-time they have the option to home-school/hire tutors.
   36. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 27, 2021 at 11:10 PM (#6042058)
Most players don't live full-time in the city they play. This is a difference ion degree, not in kind. If they really want their families with them full-time they have the option to home-school/hire tutors.
Because this is something that nobody will do. Look, I know that the MontrealBay ExpoRays will simply solve this problem by not signing any free agents, but… this is going to make it impossible for them to sign any free agents. No players are going to want this crappy alternative.
   37. Baldrick Posted: September 28, 2021 at 12:28 AM (#6042065)
I mean, I would rather live part-time in Montreal and part-time in Tampa than live full-time in Tampa.
   38. Walt Davis Posted: September 28, 2021 at 12:55 AM (#6042068)
I've never been in either city but my distant impression is that you would be hard-pressed to find two more different cities.
   39. Doug Jones threw harder than me Posted: September 28, 2021 at 01:59 AM (#6042074)
I've been to Montreal and it is a great city and they still love the Expos there. I don't really see the need for a new stadium - Olympic Stadium's biggest problem was the roof never worked, they seem to have solved that issue in recent years, and noting that both the Tampa Stadium and Olympic Stadium are domes with turf. Really perhaps if they do want the "two city solution", they should play games in the spring and fall in Montreal, when it is still rather chilly and attending an indoors sporting event would have some appeal (whereas the weather in Tampa is nice), and likewise play midsummer games in Tampa when the weather is sweltering, and likewise the long summer nights are when the folks in Montreal want to spend as much time outdoors as possible. Might be a really good solution for two cities that otherwise may not be able to support a team. Just call them the Rays/Expos, and let them wear the appropriate uniform in the appropriate city.
   40. Random Transaction Generator Posted: September 28, 2021 at 07:35 AM (#6042079)
they should play games in the spring and fall in Montreal, when it is still rather chilly and attending an indoors sporting event would have some appeal (whereas the weather in Tampa is nice), and likewise play midsummer games in Tampa when the weather is sweltering


So Montreal would get the revenue/excitement from the season opener, and the excitement/revenue of the playoffs (chase and games), and the Rays would get the more consistent (except in Tampa) revenue of kids-off-school summer attendance...indoors.

   41. Tony S Posted: September 28, 2021 at 08:45 AM (#6042088)
I mean, I would rather live part-time in Montreal and part-time in Tampa than live full-time in Tampa.


Having visited both cities, I'd rather live full-time in Montreal than one minute in Tampa.
   42. DL from MN Posted: September 28, 2021 at 08:46 AM (#6042090)
So Rays games would be blacked out on streaming in Florida and all of Canada?
   43. jmurph Posted: September 28, 2021 at 10:03 AM (#6042098)
I will continue to be extremely confident this isn't actually going to happen right up until the minute it actually happens. Then I'll offer mea culpas.

The first, most important reason for the league: why would they give up the Montreal expansion possibility without actually extracting the expansion fees from a new ownership group/team? That's transparently bonkers!
   44. jmurph Posted: September 28, 2021 at 10:07 AM (#6042099)
Two new stadiums!

Come on.
   45. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 28, 2021 at 11:13 AM (#6042105)


The first, most important reason for the league: why would they give up the Montreal expansion possibility without actually extracting the expansion fees from a new ownership group/team? That's transparently bonkers!


It's like a drug dealer that gives you the first hit for free.
   46. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 28, 2021 at 11:23 AM (#6042107)
Because this is something that nobody will do.

Scott Brosius did it for most of his career.
   47. jmurph Posted: September 28, 2021 at 11:33 AM (#6042110)
It's like a drug dealer that gives you the first hit for free.

Ha! I've seen/heard NBA expansion fee estimates of as much as $2.5 billion. Just to be able to start the team! Maybe it's less than that, maybe it's a billion, maybe less. $900 million is still $30 million per existing team. And MLB is just going to let one of the two or three LEAST POPULAR franchises occupy two markets, just for fun? With no compensation to the other owners? This does not make any sense.
   48. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 28, 2021 at 11:35 AM (#6042111)
So Rays games would be blacked out on streaming in Florida and all of Canada?
And Greenland.
   49. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: September 28, 2021 at 11:36 AM (#6042113)
Because this is something that nobody will do.

Scott Brosius did it for most of his career.


He qualifies as a nobody. Point stands.
   50. Jay Seaver Posted: September 28, 2021 at 12:17 PM (#6042125)
The first, most important reason for the league: why would they give up the Montreal expansion possibility without actually extracting the expansion fees from a new ownership group/team? That's transparently bonkers!


There was a story a few months back where Manfred basically said that MLB probably won't be expanding any time soon - owners are in it for the long haul, they split an absurd amount of money every year, and that even if the expansion fee was 2x$2B American divided evenly between the existing owners, they'd be coming out behind by going from a 30-way split to a 32-way split in a decade or so. If they aren't going to do it now, when the owners might be tempted by a big cash infusion after a couple of Covid-impacted seasons, they're not going to do it in a year or two when things are closer to back to normal.

I suspect that the split temporarily makes MTL more useful for threatening places like Oakland or whoever is next in terms of building a new stadium ("we've got two cities supporting half a team better than you're doing with a full schedule, only makes sense...") than it is currently. And if they do wind up moving there in full (which I suspect is the endgame that they just can't legally talk about yet), then in five years or so Tampa once again becomes the city that's a useful threat if KC won't build that new stadium or Baltimore decides theirs is too old, the way Montreal is now.
   51. DL from MN Posted: September 28, 2021 at 01:01 PM (#6042131)
MTL more useful for threatening places like Oakland or whoever is next in terms of building a new stadium


Or Tampa, specifically, in this case. That's really what is holding up expansion - new stadiums in Oakland and Tampa.
   52. DL from MN Posted: September 28, 2021 at 01:06 PM (#6042132)
Baltimore decides theirs is too old


Are there any new amenities that Oriole Park is lacking? That stadium is the archetype for everything that has come later.

   53. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 28, 2021 at 01:21 PM (#6042134)

There was a story a few months back where Manfred basically said that MLB probably won't be expanding any time soon - owners are in it for the long haul, they split an absurd amount of money every year, and that even if the expansion fee was 2x$2B American divided evenly between the existing owners, they'd be coming out behind by going from a 30-way split to a 32-way split in a decade or so. If they aren't going to do it now, when the owners might be tempted by a big cash infusion after a couple of Covid-impacted seasons, they're not going to do it in a year or two when things are closer to back to normal.


The only thing that has ever driven expansion is litigation, so keep an eye on the MLBPA grievance over 2020 pay.
   54. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 28, 2021 at 01:59 PM (#6042140)
Are there any new amenities that Oriole Park is lacking?
Air conditioning, which is reportedly important to some. And it’s CAMDEN YARDS.
   55. Jay Seaver Posted: September 28, 2021 at 02:38 PM (#6042147)
Are there any new amenities that Oriole Park is lacking? That stadium is the archetype for everything that has come later.


Been a while since I visited, but probably not, although I wouldn't rule out it not being as luxury-box focused as later parks. I just threw that out there because it is one the first of the new wave and I can imagine a relocation threat from them a bit easier than the White Sox. I guess Kansas City is probably a more realistic name to throw in there as the next place the league will be trying to shake down after Oakland and Tampa.
   56. Perry Posted: September 29, 2021 at 11:33 AM (#6042322)
2) Would they still be called the Rays in Montreal?


Combine the Expos and Rays -- The Ex-Rays!
   57. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: September 29, 2021 at 11:47 AM (#6042325)
The Monta Rays.
   58. SoSH U at work Posted: September 29, 2021 at 12:06 PM (#6042332)
Combine the Expos and Rays -- The Ex-Rays!


It works on so many levels.
   59. BDC Posted: September 29, 2021 at 12:56 PM (#6042344)
Are there any new amenities that Oriole Park is lacking?

Aside from air-conditioning, which may not actually be hypermodern (I seem to remember the Astrodome being air-conditioned as of 1965 but my memory is admittedly faulty) … the structural feature that seems to be taking hold of late is extending the moated sections, whether in renovations or in new designs. I don't know how much of a moat there is in Camden Yards now, if any, but the trend that has spread after YS2 (and I seem to remember Philly and some other parks of the 2000s, too) is to have more & more lower seats cordoned off from the unwashed masses.

The BDC Dome cordons off the entire lower deck unless you have a ticket for it. (Theoretically; it's a pretty huge area to keep under constant guard.)

Maybe that's the next new necessity in stadium design. It used to be boxes at a club level were essential (and we have those too), but now an entire tier of the stadium must be exclusive. But the lower-deck seats, for the most part, involve no luxury except a decent view of the game. They're just seats. The beer & hot dogs aren't even better; maybe a bit worse in terms of selection.
   60. Darren Posted: September 29, 2021 at 02:39 PM (#6042375)
I know players like money and money is usually the driving factor in where they sign, but I think this would be a major turnoff to any free agent who has any choice about where he signs. You can either sign with a team and spend half the season in one place, in one country, or spend your year split between road games and two home cities that are in different countries.
   61. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 29, 2021 at 02:55 PM (#6042379)

I know players like money and money is usually the driving factor in where they sign, but I think this would be a major turnoff to any free agent who has any choice about where he signs. You can either sign with a team and spend half the season in one place, in one country, or spend your year split between road games and two home cities that are in different countries.


Sure, but how does that affect the Rays?
   62. DL from MN Posted: September 29, 2021 at 05:44 PM (#6042420)
I know Andrelton Simmons wasn't able to travel to Toronto due to immigration issues. I imagine that would keep him from signing with Canadian teams as well.
   63. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: September 29, 2021 at 06:07 PM (#6042429)
The "regional franchise" was a thing, mostly in basketball, in the 1970s. The ABA had the Carolina Cougars, Virginia Squires and the Floridians, while the NBA had the KC-Omaha Kings; also, both leagues played numerous "neutral site" games. (The Celtics played three or so home games in Hartford every year from 1974-95.)

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