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Tuesday, November 12, 2019

The Astros stole signs electronically in 2017 | The Athletic (paywall)

Early in the 2017 season, at least two uniformed Astros got together to start the process. One was a hitter who was struggling at the plate and had benefited from sign stealing with a previous team, according to club sources; another was a coach who wanted to help. They were said to strongly believe that some opposing teams were already up to no good.

They wanted to devise their own system in Houston. And they did.

“That’s not playing the game the right way,” said Fiers, who was with the team from 2015-17 and was non-tendered in the offseason after the Astros won the 2017 World Series. “They were advanced and willing to go above and beyond to win.”

Three other sources who were inside the organization in 2017 and had direct knowledge of the scheme discussed its existence on the condition of anonymity.

The article goes into detail about how the Astros did it. More broadly, it discusses the problem of teams league-wide using high tech equipment to circumvent rules, steal signs, and get more in-game information.

Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: November 12, 2019 at 02:03 PM | 195 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, because of course they did, cheating

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   101. PreservedFish Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:18 AM (#5900842)
That's a pretty big stretch of an analogy, considering "fine the Astros and take a draft pick" is not personally harmful to any single human.


Apologies, Blastin. I too hate bad analogies. I didn't mean to draw an equivalence between the two "crimes," one of which is obviously totally frivolous. The theft/murder analogy is an even bigger stretch from that perspective, obviously.

But I think the logic of "let's just make the punishment ####### severe, problem solved" is similar in each case. And it's a bad idea whether we're talking about punishment of thieves and murderers, or discipline for a toddler.
   102. Blastin Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:21 AM (#5900844)
Actually, I meant that jailing someone for life is harmful and fining the team isn't going to ruin anyone's life. That's what I meant by "harmful."

I get your point, but I do think there's enough smoke here that the Astros seem to have been doing a lot of really out of bounds things, including that barring of the reporter in Detroit, and so forth.
   103. PreservedFish Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:24 AM (#5900846)
Actually, I meant that jailing someone for life is harmful and fining the team isn't going to ruin anyone's life. That's what I meant by "harmful."

Well, I certainly agree with this too.
   104. The Duke Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:24 AM (#5900847)
Singapore has draconian drug laws, including first time offenders, and it works fine for them. Draconian works but you have to be able to withstand public blowback.

MLB can’t cripple the Astros but they could do at least as much as they did to the cardinals and Braves to send a message. If it turns out that Yu Darvish was beaten badly twice because of this, all hell will break loose.
   105. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:25 AM (#5900848)
But I think the logic of "let's just make the punishment ####### severe, problem solved" is similar.

Sure, but St. Thomas More details what the bad consequences could be. We don't make the penalty for burglary, or even rape, death, because we don't want people to commit murder to try and avoid getting caught.

If there's a reasonable worse crime that teams might commit to avoid being caught stealing signs, I'm willing to hear it. Another issue is that death is the ultimate punishment. It's hard to get more severe. There are plenty of more severe things MLB can do to a team and it's personnel than forfeiting one draft pick and paying a fine.
   106. JJ1986 Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:28 AM (#5900849)
Singapore has draconian drug laws, including first time offenders, and it works fine for them. Draconian works but you have to be able to withstand public blowback.
You are the worst.
   107. jmurph Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:29 AM (#5900851)
MLB can’t cripple the Astros but they could do at least as much as they did to the cardinals and Braves to send a message.

They could also do that for managers arguing balls and strikes. Or catcher interference. But I think most people would agree that would be wildly excessive.

   108. RoyalFlush Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:29 AM (#5900852)
67. shoelesjoe Posted: The Blue Jays have been suspected of doing something similar at Rogers Centre for a while. The big take away here seems to be the willingness of former Astros to fess up, which as expected tends to make them look as bad as the team. Maybe a lot of ex-players from other organizations would have comparable stories but they’d rather not soil their own legacies.


Username checks out
   109. PreservedFish Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:33 AM (#5900854)
Singapore has draconian drug laws, including first time offenders, and it works fine for them.


And they'll cane ya for spitting gum onto the sidewalk. Maybe Singapore's policies are self-consistent, I don't know.

I also wouldn't take it for granted that their drug laws "work fine." Wikipedia says that the drug policy also allows police to search suspected drug users without a warrant, mandates the presumption of guilt, and so on. I'm sure this all cuts down on drug use, but it doesn't sound like a fine situation to me, especially as a guy that thinks that some of these drugs should actually be legal.
   110. Blastin Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:37 AM (#5900855)
I also wouldn't take it for granted that their drug laws "work fine."


Yeah it's a lot more problematic than the outside image suggests.
   111. PreservedFish Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:37 AM (#5900856)
There are plenty of more severe things MLB can do to a team and it's personnel than forfeiting one draft pick and paying a fine.


Your second punishment - banning the GM, Manager etc - is about as harsh a punishment as they could possibly use, short of compelling the owner to sell the team.
   112. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:41 AM (#5900858)
Your second punishment - banning the GM, Manager etc - is about as harsh a punishment as they could possibly use, short of compelling the owner to sell the team.

Au contraire. How about forfeiting all shared revenue for a few years? In any case, if you still do it after getting caught once, you're either a moron or a psychopath.

I also still don't see what the other consequences of my rule would be except putting an end to sign stealing with technological means. This isn't like most criminal law where we need to worry about mistaken conviction, or the police framing somebody. If the equipment is found in the ballpark, no body else could have put it there.
   113. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:44 AM (#5900860)
How about forfeiting all shared revenue for a few years?

I am very, very skeptical such a punishment could be imposed.
   114. Lars6788 Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:48 AM (#5900862)
Obviously, this is something the Astros could only do in their home games, yet since 2017, they've had a better record on the road than they have at home. They had a better record on the road in both 2017 and 2018, and they rather famously just finished a World Series in which they lost all their home games.

I doubt this system has helped all that much.


Would it be a little loony [without evidence] to think that the Astros likely had a system on the road as well? If they were using shenanigans to help with their batters, then who knows what was fair game to them?


   115. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:50 AM (#5900863)
I think it's well established that as a deterrent, "relatively mild punishment that is almost guaranteed if you commit the crime" is much more effective than "draconian punishment that is unlikely to be applied, but ruins your life if it is". Most people aren't risk-averse enough to imagine themselves as the 1 person in 10 who gets caught and punished.
   116. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:53 AM (#5900864)
I think it's well established that as a deterrent, "relatively mild punishment that is almost guaranteed if you commit the crime" is much more effective than "draconian punishment that is unlikely to be applied, but ruins your life if it is". Most people aren't risk-averse enough to imagine themselves as the 1 person in 10 who gets caught and punished.

But the enforcement costs of almost guaranteeing punishment tend to be very, very high.

A more severe punishment with a moderate probability of getting is generally more efficient.
   117. PreservedFish Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:56 AM (#5900865)
Is the point to dissuade the practice, or to maximize MLB's $/punishment ratio?
   118. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:59 AM (#5900866)

But the enforcement costs of almost guaranteeing punishment tend to be very, very high.


Yeah, in a society of millions of people. Maybe not in Major League Baseball.
   119. donlock Posted: November 13, 2019 at 12:01 PM (#5900867)
Why doesn't MLB have an official stand behind the batter and catcher? He could monitor things like a banging trash can and unusual hitting behavior.

Oh, they do? The home plate umpire
   120. base ball chick Posted: November 13, 2019 at 12:01 PM (#5900868)
MuttsIdolCochrane Posted: November 13, 2019 at 08:17 AM (#5900752)

Astros all of them.....cheaters
Altuve.........******* cheater - certainly no hero
Bregman....******* cheater
All cocky liars too.
Caught
Worse than Clemens (never proven)
Worse than Bonds


- dayummmm

here and i didn't never EVAH think that something could POSSIBLY be worse than those 2 EVULLLLLLL people
   121. The Duke Posted: November 13, 2019 at 12:01 PM (#5900870)
But they do work fine for Singapore. The populace there, which is very different than the one here, is completely supportive. Greater good etc. Lee Kuan Yew Was one of the greatest leaders of a nation in modern times. I highly recommend reading about his success there.

Laugh about bubble gum on the sidewalks but don’t laugh until you to travel to SF city center and see what a third world country it has become.

I agree With Snapper that you can’t do too much but let me ask if MLB finds someone to admit that they were electronically stealing signs in the Yu darvish meltdowns what would you do? That’s basically theft of a World Series which is a pretty big deal. How many people right now as we sit here today think Yu randomly had two of the worst starts in his career back to back in the World Series ?

   122. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 13, 2019 at 12:03 PM (#5900871)
Yeah, in a society of millions of people. Maybe not in Major League Baseball.

Well, you could hire an official to check every park before every game for video and electronic surveillance, and fine teams $100K every time they get caught. That will cost millions of dollars a year, and probably shut down such cheating.

Or you can spend nothing, rely on people ratting them out, and fine them $10M and a draft pick if caught. That would also shut down such cheating, and wouldn't cost millions of dollars a year.
   123. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: November 13, 2019 at 12:04 PM (#5900872)
I get your point, but I do think there's enough smoke here that the Astros seem to have been doing a lot of really out of bounds things, including that barring of the reporter in Detroit, and so forth.


I don't see that other actions by the Astros should have any bearing on what action MLB takes here.
   124. Blastin Posted: November 13, 2019 at 12:10 PM (#5900873)
Laugh about bubble gum on the sidewalks but don’t laugh until you to travel to SF city center and see what a third world country it has become.


I have indeed been to both SF and Singapore this decade.

I didn't say I didn't like Singapore. It's a really interesting and vibrant place. Except for that durian smell.
   125. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: November 13, 2019 at 12:16 PM (#5900874)
I don't see that other actions by the Astros should have any bearing on what action MLB takes here.

It's Cultural, tone at the top, lack of organizational control, etc. I think all of those actions taken together show a team has taken at least an unofficial organizational policy to treat rules as suggestions.
   126. Lassus Posted: November 13, 2019 at 12:23 PM (#5900876)
Legality of same-sex sexual activity

Previously, Singapore law inherited from the British Empire prohibited sodomy regardless of sex. As such, heterosexual and homosexual anal or oral sex were illegal. In 2007, such sexual activity was legalised for heterosexuals and lesbians, but not for gay men.[1] The punishment is two years' imprisonment, and Attorney-General Lucien Wong has declared that he still has the legal power to prosecute someone under Singapore's Section 377A.[4][5] Section 377A can be used to prosecute if reports are lodged with the police, particularly in relation to minors.[6]

In June 2019, at the Smart Nation Summit, Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong reiterated that Singapore would keep Section 377A "for some time" saying, "Whatever your sexuality orientation is, you're welcome to come and work in Singapore... You know our rules in Singapore. It is the way this society is: We are not like San Francisco, neither are we like some countries in the Middle East. [We are] something in between, it is the way the society is."[11][12]

See also: Section 377A of the Penal Code (Singapore)

After an exhaustive Penal Code review in 2007, oral and anal sex were legalised for heterosexuals and lesbians. The changes meant that oral and anal sex between consenting heterosexual and female homosexual adults were no longer offences. However, Section 377A, which deals with gross indecency between consenting men, remains in force.[1]

LGBT rights protesters at a Human Rights Day seminar organised by the Delegation of the European Union to Singapore in December 2014
In his concluding speech on the debate over the partial repeal of Section 377A,[13] Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong told MPs before the vote that "Singapore is basically a conservative society... The family is the basic building block of this society. And by family in Singapore we mean one man, one woman, marrying, having children and bringing up children within that framework of a stable family unit."

Section 377A ("Outrages on decency")

Section 377A states that: "Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years."[14]
I prefer dirty streets.
   127. base ball chick Posted: November 13, 2019 at 12:29 PM (#5900877)
yu darvish got his butt handed to him at HOME in the WS - and look at the pitches that got creamed. it's not like golfing something at the ankles or hammering a pitch with great movement

dontchu think it would be more than a little bit difficult to set up a camera in CF in an away stadium that instantly transmits to a monitor or something in the visitor's dugout?

and not defending the use of videocameras to cheat, but i gotta say that they sure didn't help the astros in the Series. although they DID have the best home record in the ML this year

color me unsurprised that people like crane and luhnow believe cheating is a necessary part of win at any price
   128. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 13, 2019 at 12:35 PM (#5900880)
Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong told MPs before the vote that "Singapore is basically a conservative society... The family is the basic building block of this society. And by family in Singapore we mean one man, one woman, marrying, having children and bringing up children within that framework of a stable family unit."
"...but girl-on-girl is pretty hot, so we're OK with that."
   129. The Duke Posted: November 13, 2019 at 12:37 PM (#5900882)
127. Friedman has already intimated that the issue extended beyond home games. He knows something but of course he’s a biased observer
   130. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 13, 2019 at 12:39 PM (#5900883)
color me unsurprised that people like crane and luhnow believe cheating is a necessary part of win at any price


Well, if they think the DH is acceptable, they obviously have no ethical boundaries whatsoever.
   131. The Duke Posted: November 13, 2019 at 01:05 PM (#5900892)
A’s reaction

It’s not about it being Houston or a team in our division,” A’s general manager David Forst said Tuesday at the GM meetings. “You want the playing field to be level. I have to trust the people in MLB will get involved and address it.”
   132. The Duke Posted: November 13, 2019 at 01:07 PM (#5900894)
Indians reaction:

When details of the alleged cheating emerged in a story by Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drelich of The Athletic, Indians pitchers including Clevinger and Nick Goody, along with former Tribe starter Trevor Bauer, threw shade directly at the 2019 American League Champs on social media.

Clevinger tagged Astros MVP candidate Alex Bregman in a tweet that indicated the All-Star third baseman might have had something to hide
   133. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: November 13, 2019 at 01:19 PM (#5900898)
Response by the rest of baseball to the Astros' various forms of unapologetic cheating seems like it's at the point of the response to Moneyball in 2002. There's major resistance because it's a break with history and the great majority of teams are not comfortable with it. They are being both criticized on moral grounds and being made fun of. But they're not going to stop, because it's economically rational, so soon everyone will have to do it.
   134. Esoteric Posted: November 13, 2019 at 01:48 PM (#5900906)
Response by the rest of baseball to the Astros' various forms of unapologetic cheating seems like it's at the point of the response to Moneyball in 2002. There's major resistance because it's a break with history and the great majority of teams are not comfortable with it. They are being both criticized on moral grounds and being made fun of. But they're not going to stop, because it's economically rational, so soon everyone will have to do it.
LOL not if MLB takes off and nukes the Astros from orbit (it's the only way to be sure).
   135. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 13, 2019 at 02:13 PM (#5900911)
I don't see that other actions by the Astros should have any bearing on what action MLB takes here.

Of course they should.

When deciding on a punishment, you should always weigh mitigating and aggravating circumstances. What we know about the culture and the operation of the Astros, from all of the available history, paints an incredibly damning picture, of an organisation that from the top down, is willing to flout the rules, and the basic principles of fair play and sportsmanship.

The fact that this isn't a one-off, but part of a consistent pattern of insidious behaviour, should absolutely be taken into account, when determining how to react to it.
   136. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 13, 2019 at 02:20 PM (#5900914)
Response by the rest of baseball to the Astros' various forms of unapologetic cheating seems like it's at the point of the response to Moneyball in 2002. There's major resistance because it's a break with history and the great majority of teams are not comfortable with it. They are being both criticized on moral grounds and being made fun of. But they're not going to stop, because it's economically rational, so soon everyone will have to do it.

This is dumb. There was nothing about Moneyball, that could be in any way shape or form be considered cheating, or unethical. Yes, it was about gaining an advantage, but it was doing so within the rules of the game, and the spirit of the competition. The Astros completely ignored those boundaries, which makes it an entirely different story.

You are comparing an aesthetic argument, to one about ethics and morals.

MLB also has a vested interest in maintaining a level playing field (or at least the appearance of one). If there is a sense that everyone is cheating, it will undermine the faith of its audience in the product, and ultimately be ruinous.
   137. The Duke Posted: November 13, 2019 at 03:52 PM (#5900931)
Aside from the obvious ethical issues, the timing of this cheating (ie in their championship season), will create a cloud that MLB can’t ignore. If it came to light that the win against the dodgers (and others) is tainted by electronic eavesdropping, it would be a big scandal. The article says there are conflicting stories as to whether it continued into the playoffs but it’s hard to believe they suddenly decided to play on a level playing field in the most important games of the year.



   138. base ball chick Posted: November 13, 2019 at 04:39 PM (#5900944)
The Duke Posted: November 13, 2019 at 01:07 PM (#5900894)

When details of the alleged cheating emerged in a story by Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drelich of The Athletic, Indians pitchers including Clevinger and Nick Goody, along with former Tribe starter Trevor Bauer, threw shade directly at the 2019 American League Champs on social media.

Clevinger tagged Astros MVP candidate Alex Bregman in a tweet that indicated the All-Star third baseman might have had something to hide


- well, bregman has a "feud" with bauer goin on. or did last year

but them boyz don't got real too much to complain about - bregman hasn't hit worth spit against either one of em. or, really, any of the cleveland pitchers. and bregman couldn't be the guy who started things after coming from some other team

and the A's best not complain seeing as how it was reddick who came from there


Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 13, 2019 at 02:20 PM (#5900914)

..., There was nothing about Moneyball, that could be in any way shape or form be considered cheating, or unethical. Yes, it was about gaining an advantage, but it was doing so within the rules of the game, and the spirit of the competition. The Astros completely ignored those boundaries, which makes it an entirely different story.


- agree
the other teams thought the moneyball folks were IDIOTS to make the picks they did. if 29 other teams think you are picking out WORSE selections, that is hardly "cheating" in any way. even now, there is zero reasonable way you can look back and say that the billy n gang were, in any way, cheating

MLB also has a vested interest in maintaining a level playing field (or at least the appearance of one). If there is a sense that everyone is cheating, it will undermine the faith of its audience in the product, and ultimately be ruinous


- NOW you're talkin

mlb might could be mad that the astros were STUPID enough to PR handle taubman the way they did. well, they are FURIOUS, seeing as how him and his misogyny were a bigger story than the actual SERIES.

(not that they are all very progressive feminists who think that females should do stuff like coach, train, manage, or run teams, or do anything high up in the FO relating to actual ballplaying and not just bidness. wouldn't be even a little bit surprised if they have the usual contempt for females - BUT, they have to pretend they hate men hitting females/kids and bleeve in racial/sexual equality, blahblahblah)

but seeing as how they now have sponsors who are casinos and sportsbooks, they got to be careful to make sure it don't look like there is obvious cheating goin on, like with the electronic sign stealing stuff, or folks/sponsors are gonna start thinking games are fixed or tampered with to make the sportsbook folk/gamblers more $$$
   139. Zach Posted: November 13, 2019 at 04:45 PM (#5900949)
They are being both criticized on moral grounds and being made fun of. But they're not going to stop, because it's economically rational, so soon everyone will have to do it.

Cheating is always economically rational from the cheater's perspective.
   140. Zach Posted: November 13, 2019 at 04:48 PM (#5900952)
It's not like stealing signs is some technological innovation. It's just against the rules.
   141. jmurph Posted: November 13, 2019 at 04:50 PM (#5900953)
It's not like stealing signs is some technological innovation. It's just against the rules.

Well, technically, the technological innovating is the part that's actually against the rules!
   142. The Duke Posted: November 13, 2019 at 05:33 PM (#5900967)
Red Sox pitcher alleges additional charges. Says Astros bullpen catcher involved and that Astros were using “extreme” measures
   143. winnipegwhip Posted: November 13, 2019 at 05:44 PM (#5900969)
The way to test this is for the catcher to put down the middle finger and drill a couple of guys when it isn't expected and for any particular reason. If they put two and two together and retaliate then you know they are stealing signs.
   144. Barnaby Jones Posted: November 13, 2019 at 07:22 PM (#5900981)
I mean, the way to test it is just pick a random Astros home game from 2017 and listen for banging on offspeed pitches, or whistling or whatever. I picked a game where they were facing Giolito, and I found an obvious example during a Carlos Correa AB:

https://youtu.be/Hsur-Ty2vOs?t=6983

P1: 2 drumbeats, CB
P2: No beat, FB
P3: No beat, FB
P4: 1 drumbeat, SL
P5: 1 drumbeat, SL
P6: No beat, FB

Correa walks. Next batter, Marwin Gonzalez:

P1: No beat, FB
P2: 3 drumbeats, CH
P3: 1 drumbeat, CH (HA, loser messed it up)
P4: No beat, FB
P5: 2 drumbeats, SL (Wild pitch, runner to second, signs get more complicated)

Marwin ultimately strikes out on an off-speed pitch; guess those are tougher to hit when you don't know they are coming. Awkwardly, the announcers spend the AB raving about his plate discipline.

The beats come immediately after the sign; this clearly video assisted. I can't believe how many people here are saying "who cares" to this. It is straight up, 100%, no-dispute cheating to have a video camera stealing signs. Knowing what pitch is coming is a HUGE advantage. Like, way bigger advantage than taking steroids or greenies or whatever.

And they were doing it all year, during THE YEAR THEY WON THE WORLD SERIES. This is bad.
   145. The Duke Posted: November 13, 2019 at 07:31 PM (#5900984)
As soon as they prove the Darvish connection it’s going to be really bad
   146. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 13, 2019 at 07:39 PM (#5900985)
This is bad.
That’s true, and it’s unfortunate that the issue was muddied here by unrelated issues such as the Astros being victimized by the Cardinals computer hacking. However, MLB should be able to get to the bottom of this. You put people under oath, explain there are severe consequences for lying to MLB investigators and that you have already talked with many cooperative witnesses. Not that many folks will continue the lie when the is jig is already largely up due to other testimony and video evidence such as that described in #144. I’d expect significant suspensions (half a season - longer if it went on beyond 2017), fines and forfeited draft picks. Hard to see how Hinch & Luhnow could be unaware, so they’re likely to be disciplined, IMHO.
   147. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 13, 2019 at 07:48 PM (#5900987)
Hard to see how Hinch & Luhnow could be unaware, so they’re likely to be disciplined, IMHO.


It seemed like Espada was a near-lock for a managerial job, and now several teams have passed on him. I wonder whether that's a function of this story breaking when it did?
   148. Barnaby Jones Posted: November 13, 2019 at 08:00 PM (#5900988)
Picking another date at random from youtube, Aug 19, 2017, OAK at HOU. From the top, Springer:

P1: No beat, FB
P2: No beat, FB
P3: No beat, FB
P4: 1 beat, CH(CT?)
P5: No beat: FB (Single)

Bregman:

P1: No beat, FB
P2: No beat, FB
P3: No beat, FB
P4: No beat, FB
P5: No beat, FB (BB)

Now there is a runner on second, so the system doesn't work. Altuve hits into DP. Now Reddick:

P1: No beat, FB (Groundout)

And so on throughout the game. Beltran in the 2nd:

P1: No beat, FB
P2: 1 beat, CH(CT?)
P3: 2 beats, SL
P4: 2 beats, SL (Strikeout, LOL)

Fisher in the 7th, bullpen in:

P1: 1 beat, Breaking ball
P7: 1 beat, Breaking ball (BB)

Bregman in the 8th:

P3: 1 beat, Breaking ball
P4: 1 beat, Breaking ball (HR)
   149. Omineca Greg Posted: November 13, 2019 at 09:28 PM (#5900995)
I'm not sure it's right to conflate Singapore's severe laws and its attitude towards MSM. They're related, but...no, it's too complicated. Anyway, Taiwan just legalised same sex marriage in May, so that's alright.

If you have 13 minutes, you can watch this video of Pink Dot SG 2019, Singapore's Pride event. It's very Singaporean, I LOL'd at the polite line-up to get into the event. It's a very slice of life video, nothing profound, but I got a lot out of it, revolutions all take different courses, and that's what the Singapore one looks like. The prime minister whom Lassus quoted, Lee Hsien Loong...guess what? His nephew is queer, and the PM's brother brought his whole damn family to the event this year, including his son-in-law, if you catch my drift.

Pink Dot SG 2019
   150. Sunday silence Posted: November 13, 2019 at 09:41 PM (#5900996)
They are saying on the another site that its 1 beat for curve ball and 2 for change up.

What the hell CB and CT mean? I get that CH is changeup.

Really you people should introduce an acronym anytime you use one that's unusual.
   151. Rally Posted: November 13, 2019 at 09:50 PM (#5900999)
Curveball and cutter I assume
   152. Omineca Greg Posted: November 13, 2019 at 09:52 PM (#5901000)
MSM: Men who have sex with men.
   153. Barnaby Jones Posted: November 13, 2019 at 10:02 PM (#5901001)
Yeah, CB = Curveball, CT = Cutter. Those are just standard acronyms used for pitch data, not something I invented, but I take your point that maybe they aren't as commonly known or intuitive as I was assuming.
   154. The Duke Posted: November 13, 2019 at 10:07 PM (#5901004)
Ny post:

On September 15, 2017, MLB announced the Red Sox would be fined an undisclosed amount for utilizing Apple Watches in their dugout to swipe signals from the Yankees; the Yankees paid a smaller undisclosed amount for improper usage of a dugout phone. That day, in a statement, commissioner Rob Manfred disclosed that all teams had been notified of the following: “Future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks.”

That White Sox-Astros game took place on September 21, 2017, six days after MLB made its announcement, therefore seemingly putting the Astros in violation of the reinforced and heightened guidelines.“
   155. base ball chick Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:29 PM (#5901014)
i have a hard time believing that the lid banging could easily be heard over the crowds OR that the opposing pitchers and catchers didn't notice it as easily as farquaher did - and i went and listened to some of the at bats from home games on mlb and i couldn't easily hear the banging we're hearing on jomboy's video

- there would be some gray ground in 2017 because the astrods didn't use apple watches or a dugout phone

but
if the astros were STILL pulling this shttt in 2018, how is it that no one reported them? kind of strange
   156. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:35 PM (#5901015)
- there would be some gray ground in 2017 because the astrods didn't use apple watches or a dugout phone

I don't think there is any grey ground at all. They are using a video camera and a tv screen to watch the catcher's signs. That they are passing it on by banging on a trashcan, while hilarious, doesn't erase the technology used to do it.
   157. base ball chick Posted: November 13, 2019 at 11:40 PM (#5901017)
i don't know exactly what rules - meaning NEW rules, exactly got put in place sept 15, 2017. i know that mlb did something about the CF camera and delayed feeds last year

do they have to make rule changes like this through the CBA? are the players held liable or the team? is it the manager? coach? GM? owner?
   158. QLE Posted: November 14, 2019 at 12:37 AM (#5901021)
   159. manchestermets Posted: November 14, 2019 at 04:25 AM (#5901022)
It's not in the game-play rules, but my understanding is the MLB regulations regarding the stadium conditions are that the home team is to furnish the visiting team with the same equipment-in-kind as the home team has.


Do the regulations specify a penalty, or is it just an "at the commissioner's discretion" thing?
   160. Rally Posted: November 14, 2019 at 08:49 AM (#5901034)
I don't think there is any grey ground at all. They are using a video camera and a tv screen to watch the catcher's signs. That they are passing it on by banging on a trashcan, while hilarious, doesn't erase the technology used to do it.


Astros should have all of their cameras, TV screens, and trash cans taken away. They'll just have to throw all their trash into a pile on the field and play around it. When it gets too big, they will be forced to move and build a new stadium.
   161. The Duke Posted: November 14, 2019 at 09:55 AM (#5901060)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yardbarker.com/mlb/articles/amp/more_video_evidence_of_astros_cheating_in_2017_emerges/s1_127_30531242
   162. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 14, 2019 at 12:33 PM (#5901126)
They'll just have to throw all their trash into a pile on the field and play around it.

A pile of trash on a mound on the field? How would you be able to tell the difference between that, and simplt when Osuna is pitching?
   163. The Duke Posted: November 14, 2019 at 03:09 PM (#5901183)
From rosenthal:

Last month, the Nationals were able to acknowledge concern about Houston’s methods without being overwhelmed by them. In the days leading up to the World Series, the Nationals took a variety of precautions to shield their signs, according to people familiar with the situation. Their advance scouts were warned about Houston’s ability to crack the codes of their guests. “Everyone in the game was calling with little tidbits,” one Nationals official told The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal. “We were tipped off to all of it.”
   164. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 14, 2019 at 03:14 PM (#5901185)
Last month, the Nationals were able to acknowledge concern about Houston’s methods without being overwhelmed by them. In the days leading up to the World Series, the Nationals took a variety of precautions to shield their signs, according to people familiar with the situation. Their advance scouts were warned about Houston’s ability to crack the codes of their guests. “Everyone in the game was calling with little tidbits,” one Nationals official told The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal. “We were tipped off to all of it.”

If you had advanced knowledge, you could probably wreak some havoc with them for a little while. Have your own guys make the noise at the wrong times. Have preset plans to switch signs mid PA.
   165. The Duke Posted: November 14, 2019 at 03:21 PM (#5901189)
From ESPN:

The initial stages of the investigation already have begun, sources said, with league personnel contacting people from both the Astros and Boston Red Sox organizations Wednesday. The league is attempting to cull tangible evidence from the widespread paranoia of front offices and teams around the game about others cheating and has indicated it will consider levying long suspensions against interviewees who are found to have lied, sources said.
   166. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: November 14, 2019 at 03:35 PM (#5901197)
“Everyone in the game was calling with little tidbits,” one Nationals official told The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal. “We were tipped off to all of it.”


Apparently the Astros cheating was so bad that the entire MLB was working to help the Nationals win.

This makes me question the integrity of the game much more than guys who have been permanently banished for gambling.
   167. CONservative governMENt Posted: November 14, 2019 at 05:05 PM (#5901211)
One suggestion I like is having the opposing hitters know all of the pitch calls for the 2020 season. The catcher would tell the hitter and umpire and any deception would result in an ejection of the pitcher.
   168. Rob_Wood Posted: November 14, 2019 at 05:41 PM (#5901220)
One suggestion I like is having the opposing hitters know all of the pitch calls for the 2020 season. The catcher would tell the hitter and umpire and any deception would result in an ejection of the pitcher.


Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
   169. GGIAS (aka Poster Nutbag) Posted: November 14, 2019 at 06:38 PM (#5901227)
and the A's best not complain seeing as how it was reddick who came from there


Huh??

Isn't it the A's pitcher that is the only one out of four players willing to NOT be anonymous? I have to call into question this whole line...I am almost positive the articles I've seen are all specifically pointing out Beltran and Cora.

But yeah, A's best not complain.

Nor should any team that ever had a member that now plays for....nevermind, that was too stupid to even post sarcastically.

C'mon people.

   170. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 14, 2019 at 06:46 PM (#5901230)
Apparently the Astros cheating was so bad that the entire MLB was working to help the Nationals win.

This makes me question the integrity of the game much more than guys who have been permanently banished for gambling.


Are you serious?

Other teams telling the Nationals how to counter the Astros' cheating is the problem here? Not the Astros' cheating?
   171. Sunday silence Posted: November 14, 2019 at 08:32 PM (#5901262)
I'd like to know if Marwin Gonzalez has been contacted in all this.

Wasnt he like below average his whole career. THen in 2017 he was what 4 WAR? And then next season he's back to below average?

Hmmm.
   172. The Duke Posted: November 14, 2019 at 10:33 PM (#5901288)
More jomboy video focusing on whistling this year. He said he gave up trying to find more because there’s so much Random whistling. Full disclosure - jomboy is yanks fan

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2019/11/14/alcs-whistling-video-emerges-to-support-ridiculous-yankees-accusations/amp/
   173. The Duke Posted: November 14, 2019 at 10:38 PM (#5901290)
USA Today:

Two execs think their title in 2017 should be vacated !

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/4193684002
   174. JJ1986 Posted: November 15, 2019 at 08:01 AM (#5901329)
I know people just lie about everything nowadays, but Carlos Beltran denied knowing about this hours before video emerged of him participating as a batter. Is it too late to hire Eduardo Perez?
   175. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: November 15, 2019 at 10:13 AM (#5901379)
Are you serious?

Other teams telling the Nationals how to counter the Astros' cheating is the problem here? Not the Astros' cheating?


I should have said "this entire situation makes me question..."

The Astros cheating and various underhanded ways. Other MLB teams calling the Nationals to give them tips on how to beat the cheating. Isn't that collusion? We all rag on the owners for FA collusion, this is just another form.

Teams getting busted taking pictures of opposing dugouts.

The subterfuge is getting pretty dang bad.

   176. Nasty Nate Posted: November 15, 2019 at 10:16 AM (#5901381)
Alex Cora is being investigated, as he was the bench coach in 2017. A comprehensive investigation would include audio examination of Sox games in 2018.
   177. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 15, 2019 at 10:17 AM (#5901382)
I should have said "this entire situation makes me question..."

The Astros cheating and various underhanded ways. Other MLB teams calling the Nationals to give them tips on how to beat the cheating. Isn't that collusion? We all rag on the owners for FA collusion, this is just another form.

Teams getting busted taking pictures of opposing dugouts.

The subterfuge is getting pretty dang bad.


I think what the Astros have done is really bad. I think other teams helping the Nationals fight the cheating is 100% OK.
   178. pikepredator Posted: November 15, 2019 at 11:33 AM (#5901412)
I think what the Astros have done is really bad. I think other teams helping the Nationals fight the cheating is 100% OK


agreed. that said, I would think other teams would (also) report it to the league . . . perhaps they did and their concerns were swept under the rug, or marginalized?
   179. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: November 15, 2019 at 11:46 AM (#5901422)
I can understand why teams are helping the Nationals, but its all a bad look for the league as a whole.
   180. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 15, 2019 at 11:47 AM (#5901423)
I can understand why teams are helping the Nationals, but its all a bad look for the league as a whole.

Yes, but the bad look is the league not stopping this BS two years ago.
   181. PreservedFish Posted: November 15, 2019 at 11:54 AM (#5901427)
Other MLB teams calling the Nationals to give them tips on how to beat the cheating. Isn't that collusion? We all rag on the owners for FA collusion, this is just another form.

Is it collusion for a Royal to tell a White Sock that a Twin is tipping his pitches?
   182. DanG Posted: November 15, 2019 at 01:42 PM (#5901466)
Carlos Beltran denied knowing about this hours before video emerged of him participating as a batter
Looks like Beltran's HOF chances just took a big dump.
   183. base ball chick Posted: November 15, 2019 at 01:56 PM (#5901473)
KNOWING about the cheating camera is different than suggesting/arranging the whole thing. otherwise, HOF no probs seeing as how stealing signs no biggie - i mean it's not like Those EVULLLLLLL ROIDZZZZZZZZZZZ
   184. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: November 15, 2019 at 03:29 PM (#5901512)
Is it collusion for a Royal to tell a White Sock that a Twin is tipping his pitches?


Didn't the Tigers get in trouble for sending champagne to the White Sox for beating the Royals giving the division to the Tigers in 2014? Trouble being a gentle "don't do that".
   185. Zach Posted: November 15, 2019 at 08:34 PM (#5901572)
184 -- way back in the olden days, teams used to take up collections to reward other teams for beating their rivals. Which started looking really bad after the Black Sox scandal.

Champagne isn't the same thing, but it falls under the same umbrella.
   186. MuttsIdolCochrane Posted: November 15, 2019 at 09:21 PM (#5901576)
The most noxious, duplicitous, and brazen liar seems to be AJ Hinch. Yes?
   187. QLE Posted: November 15, 2019 at 10:00 PM (#5901583)
The most noxious, duplicitous, and brazen liar seems to be AJ Hinch. Yes?


I'm not sure he beats Luhnow, as this operation would seem to require someone higher-up in the chain of command than the manager- and, come to think about it, I wonder if this in any way connects with his weirdness about Taubman, as Taubman's calling in a lawyer seems to suggest that he knows stuff and it wouldn't be good for him.....
   188. QLE Posted: November 17, 2019 at 12:11 AM (#5901780)
   189. Blastin Posted: November 17, 2019 at 10:57 AM (#5901804)
Are the Astros still the best team of all time, with an "amazing" ability to avoid striking out, or nah

   190. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 17, 2019 at 11:56 AM (#5901810)
I’m not convinced this had a huge impact. (Or that it didn’t. Agnostic until I learn more.)
This was very NOT okay to do.
Kevin Goldstein was an/theexec who contacted scouts here...
   191. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 17, 2019 at 01:30 PM (#5901825)
[188] If they fired all their scouts for refusing to go along with this cheating, I think the league needs to go nuclear on Houston.

Crane, banned. Luhnow, banned. Hinch, banned. Goldstein, banned. Add in a huge fine, and multiple forfeited draft picks.
   192. Blastin Posted: November 17, 2019 at 02:55 PM (#5901836)
So basically they hired a bunch of finance bros with the edict "amass wins at any cost," the scouts were like, no, they fired the scouts, they won a lot for a while, and eventually it all fell apart.
   193. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 17, 2019 at 03:10 PM (#5901838)
Crane, banned. Luhnow, banned. Hinch, banned. Goldstein, banned.
Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard, dead! Niedermeyer...DEAD!
   194. The Duke Posted: November 17, 2019 at 07:57 PM (#5901862)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2019/11/astros-sign-stealing-trashcan-world-series-clip-hallway-mlb-documentary/amp

A view as to exactly how the Astros might have done it
   195. PreservedFish Posted: November 17, 2019 at 08:54 PM (#5901874)
So basically they hired a bunch of finance bros with the edict "amass wins at any cost," the scouts were like, no, they fired the scouts, they won a lot for a while, and eventually it all fell apart.


Score one for the "unwritten rules."
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