Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Thursday, September 15, 2022

The Athletic: The Royals’ rebuild was supposed to be built on pitching. What has gone wrong? [$]

In Kansas City, much of the ire has been directed at pitching coach Cal Eldred, who, aside from the shortened 2020 season, has not had a pitching staff finish better than 11th in the American League in ERA since his 2018 hiring. The Royals will make decisions on their major-league staff this winter, but a survey of rival executives, coaches, player development coordinators, scouts and former Royals pitchers reveals a fuller picture of the club’s struggles to develop pitching — particularly homegrown starters. Rival executives wonder about the speed at which prospects reached the majors. Scouts question pitch usage and the implementation of data. Former pitchers lament development methods that felt too rigid.

“If these stud pitchers — Kowar, Lynch, Singer, all these guys — had they been Dodgers or Rays or Guardians, they would be very, very good,” said one rival pro scout, referencing three clubs seen as at the forefront of pitching development. “But unfortunately … they haven’t been taught how to move well. They haven’t been introduced to the metrics that gives them an idea of how they can pitch most effectively.”

“I just think they’ve been insanely aggressive in pushing some of these guys,” added one rival executive. “And I think when you do that with pitchers, you just destroy their development.”

“They’re still further behind than most organizations, just in terms of their implementation of technology and truly understanding data, what it means, and how to implement it into player-specific development plans,” a third scout said, adding, “I just feel like they’re trying to search for what the recipe is.”

 

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 15, 2022 at 11:34 AM | 19 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: royals

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. The Duke Posted: September 15, 2022 at 01:29 PM (#6096268)
Any article that doesn't blame Mike Marheny in whole or in part can't be correct
   2. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 15, 2022 at 01:32 PM (#6096270)
I don't think Matheny is great, but the problems are well before these guys even get to him.
   3. Walt Davis Posted: September 15, 2022 at 06:30 PM (#6096335)
Not a pitching development expert here but I'm not seeing any issues with Singer. Drafted out of college in 2018, he was in the majors in 2020 (hardly atypical), he's been healthy, he's got a "career" 108 ERA+ with a 126 this year. That's not to say he wouldn't go Gerrit Cole on us if traded to the Dodgers or Astros but that's very, very far from a development failure. Lynch and Kowar I grant are not looking good and are also 25 now.

Anyway, it was an excuse to open the Royals page. Greinke's doing well enough to get a cheap contract somewhere next year if he wants one, certainly at least a NRI. Witt continues to K too much, walk too little and good lord does DRS hate his defense (is it really that bad?). I think that exhausts my interest in the Royals. (Don't get me wrong, that's more interest than the Cubs should hold for most people.)
   4. Dillon Gee Escape Plan Posted: September 15, 2022 at 08:01 PM (#6096359)
Not a pitching development expert here but I'm not seeing any issues with Singer. Drafted out of college in 2018, he was in the majors in 2020 (hardly atypical), he's been healthy, he's got a "career" 108 ERA+ with a 126 this year. That's not to say he wouldn't go Gerrit Cole on us if traded to the Dodgers or Astros but that's very, very far from a development failure. Lynch and Kowar I grant are not looking good and are also 25 now.

Anyway, it was an excuse to open the Royals page. Greinke's doing well enough to get a cheap contract somewhere next year if he wants one, certainly at least a NRI. Witt continues to K too much, walk too little and good lord does DRS hate his defense (is it really that bad?). I think that exhausts my interest in the Royals. (Don't get me wrong, that's more interest than the Cubs should hold for most people.)


Pasquantino's had a pretty good MLB debut. .251/.340/.417, 114 wRC+. He's shown great contact abilities (87% contact rate, 6.3% SwStr%, 13% K%) and he's underperformed his Statcast metrics (xBA, xSLG, xwOBA).
   5. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: September 15, 2022 at 11:45 PM (#6096385)
TINSTAAPP.
   6. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 16, 2022 at 09:12 AM (#6096396)
TINSTAAPP.

The article uses that very phrase, and its origins. The moral of this story is never, ever, base your entire rebuild on pitching prospects. It's like basing your IRA on lottery tickets.
   7. Dingbat_Charlie Posted: September 16, 2022 at 09:46 AM (#6096399)
Witt and Melendez are interesting on the hitter side. Witt is an incredible talent but held back (so far) by poor swing decisions. Melendez oozes talent, has good plate discipline and plenty of power, but his swing looks messy to me. He starts with a very open stance and tries to stride towards the pitcher but his butt is headed towards first base, so he pulls off the ball. He hits the ball hard but it seems like if he squared up properly he could get to a lot more pitches. This may explain his ridiculous reverse platoon split - I think he can get to balls coming from the left side of the mound because that's where his swing is grooved. That's a lot of amateur analysis but it's my 2 cents.

Both are young enough to figure it out but they might have these issues ironed out earlier in a different organization. Pasquantino looks like a development success.



   8. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: September 16, 2022 at 09:52 AM (#6096401)
The moral of this story is never, ever, base your entire rebuild on pitching prospects.

Oakland's Four Aces rotation would have to agree with you.
   9. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 16, 2022 at 01:44 PM (#6096452)
Oakland's Four Aces rotation would have to agree with you.
Vanzancanpeterpoppeldorfer!
   10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 16, 2022 at 01:58 PM (#6096456)
Oakland's Four Aces rotation would have to agree with you.

What was the Mets one called? Generation K? It was Aguilera, Pullsifer, and some others I can't remember.
   11. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 16, 2022 at 02:02 PM (#6096457)
Aguilera was way earlier. Isringhausen, Pulsipher, Paul Wilson? Who was the fourth? At least those three made the majors eventually.
   12. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 16, 2022 at 02:04 PM (#6096459)
What was the Mets one called? Generation K? It was Aguilera, Pullsifer, and some others I can't remember.

Pulsipher, Jason Isringhausen, and Paul Wilson

EDIT: Coke to Billy Ripken. I don't think there was a 4th. OF Jay Payton was their other big young prospect at the time.
   13. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 16, 2022 at 02:42 PM (#6096463)

TINSTAAPP.


The article kinda mentions it in passing, but the Royals won before without developing starting pitching other than Yordano Ventura and Danny Duffy (the latter of which wasn't much of a factor in 2014-15). Instead they got guys from outside the org - James Shields famously, but also Jeremy Guthrie, Chris Young, Edinson Volquez, Jason Vargas, and for the pennant push, Johnny Cueto, and developing an amazing shutdown bullpen.

So it kinda feels like they should just admit they're not good at this, and focus on developing hitters and relievers.
   14. geonose Posted: September 16, 2022 at 03:30 PM (#6096476)
So it kinda feels like they should just admit they're not good at this, and focus on developing hitters and relievers.

Ugh. That's a crummy solution. Admit you're not good at it (a step in the right direction), but why not commit to figuring out a path to improvement instead of just giving up?
   15. Zach Posted: September 16, 2022 at 05:10 PM (#6096510)
He starts with a very open stance and tries to stride towards the pitcher but his butt is headed towards first base, so he pulls off the ball.

Melendez had his big breakthrough in the minors after transitioning to the extreme open stance.
   16. DFA Posted: September 16, 2022 at 10:00 PM (#6096554)
Ugh. That's a crummy solution. Admit you're not good at it (a step in the right direction), but why not commit to figuring out a path to improvement instead of just giving up?


is it though? Pitching prospects break all the time, so maybe that means don't use your draft capital on them? Instead, draft pitchers after the 5th round (to be arbitrary), sign cheap International arms (looks at Astros) and spend your money on bats? Then you can trade your bats for pitchers when the time comes. Essentially this is what the Orioles are doing right now. The game is trending towards fungible starters, 5 and dive guys with ruthless efficiency. And if you do get a TOR starter, great. Outside of whatever secret sauce the Guardians, Dodgers and Rays are using, it's easier said than done.
   17. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 16, 2022 at 11:01 PM (#6096572)
Ugh. That's a crummy solution. Admit you're not good at it (a step in the right direction), but why not commit to figuring out a path to improvement instead of just giving up?

Given the poor history of drafting pitchers high, why is it a bad idea just to stop? Unless a pitcher is miles better than the available hitters, he's much more risky, and therefore less valuable.
   18. WilliamOtto Posted: September 20, 2022 at 12:05 AM (#6097017)
It's difficult to discover individuals who share excellent things like you elsewhere, thus we are constantly in need of them. You are a decent person, therefore I really want to tell you about Slope 2, a website with a ton of games that grab your attention straight away.
   19. Cris E Posted: September 20, 2022 at 12:30 AM (#6097018)
Bill? Bill Otto, is that you? I thought you died in March. Didn't you die, or is shilling lame web sites what you do in the afterlife? Tell me you're alive so I don't have to look forward to an afterlife of spam.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Guts
for his generous support.

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

Newsblog2023 NBA Playoffs Thread
(2526 - 1:51pm, Jun 02)
Last: Rally

Newsblog8 big All-Star voting storylines to follow
(20 - 1:41pm, Jun 02)
Last: Froot Loops

NewsblogESPN the Magazine: Bat and Ball Games you've never heard of
(31 - 1:05pm, Jun 02)
Last: gehrig97

NewsblogFormer Los Angeles Dodger Steve Garvey weighs U.S. Senate bid
(17 - 12:59pm, Jun 02)
Last: People like Zonk and Chris Truby

NewsblogThe Athletic: After 50 years, is this the San Diego Chicken’s last stand? [$]
(6 - 12:57pm, Jun 02)
Last: Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer

NewsblogJays pitcher Anthony Bass sorry for posting video endorsing anti-LGBTQ boycotts
(95 - 11:15am, Jun 02)
Last: People like Zonk and Chris Truby

NewsblogDiamond Sports Group fails to pay Padres, loses broadcast rights
(22 - 11:01am, Jun 02)
Last: RoyalsRetro (AG#1F)

Sox TherapyThe First Third
(21 - 10:51am, Jun 02)
Last: Darren

NewsblogOMNICHATTER for June 2023
(27 - 7:11am, Jun 02)
Last: JJ1986

NewsblogOT Soccer Thread - The Run In
(415 - 4:49pm, Jun 01)
Last: Infinite Yost (Voxter)

NewsblogOMNICHATTER for May 2023
(649 - 4:09pm, Jun 01)
Last: Hombre Brotani

NewsblogCarlos Correa Diagnosed With Plantar Fasciitis And Muscle Strain In Left Foot
(20 - 4:02pm, Jun 01)
Last: Bourbon Samurai stays in the fight

Sox TherapyLining Up The Minors
(28 - 12:38pm, Jun 01)
Last: Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer

NewsblogFormer MLB Stars In Upstate NY, Here's How You Can Meet Them
(24 - 11:52am, Jun 01)
Last: kirstie819

NewsblogNew Top 200 Draft Prospects list: Execs rank the first five
(7 - 11:31am, Jun 01)
Last: kirstie819

Page rendered in 0.5359 seconds
48 querie(s) executed