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Tuesday, November 17, 2020

The best player not in the HOF for every team

Angels: Bobby Grich#, 2B
Key fact: He was a six-time All-Star, four-time Gold Glove winner and one-time Silver Slugger

Grich played 10 of his 17 seasons in the Majors with the Angels, and he is almost universally viewed as one of the most deserving of enshrinement among players not in the Hall of Fame. Grich did just about everything well as an elite second baseman, racking up 71 WAR during his career. That’s good for eighth all-time among second basemen and puts him ahead of several Hall of Fame second basemen such as Frankie Frisch, Ryne Sandberg, Roberto Alomar and Craig Biggio. Grich is a member of both the Orioles and Angels Halls of Fame, but the 71-year-old is still waiting for a potential call to Cooperstown, which would have to come via the Modern Baseball Committee at this point.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: November 17, 2020 at 12:10 PM | 34 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame

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   1. JRVJ Posted: November 17, 2020 at 01:39 PM (#5989299)
In re: the ChiSox, does Minnie Minoso really beat out Shoeless Joe Jackson?
   2. mathesond Posted: November 17, 2020 at 01:53 PM (#5989303)
I'm kind of impressed that they picked Stieb over Delgado for the Jays, and also that Tony Fernandez maade the Top 5 for Toronto.
   3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 17, 2020 at 02:00 PM (#5989307)
This would be better if they excluded the guys who are obvious HoFers except for steroids allegations, and guys who haven't come up for a vote yet.
   4. SoSH U at work Posted: November 17, 2020 at 02:13 PM (#5989310)

This would be better if they excluded the guys who are obvious HoFers except for steroids allegations, and guys who haven't come up for a vote yet.


I hate lists like that.
   5. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: November 17, 2020 at 02:22 PM (#5989312)
[1] Probably not, but Minoso did make Bill James' top-100 list in 2001, meaning top half of the Hall of Fame. Kind of amazing how the Veteran's Committee in recent years has gone into "induct everyone"-mode and Minoso still can't get any love.
   6. BDC Posted: November 17, 2020 at 02:35 PM (#5989317)
snapper's right, I mean, it is not interesting to note that Adrian Beltre is the best Ranger not in the HOF, because he is going in on the first ballot ere long.

As to the best Ranger not in the Hall but eligible, I would say Juan Gonzalez. He is actually ninth on the leaderboard of WAR accumulated as a Ranger, and Ivan Rodriguez and Beltre are the only likely HOFers ahead of him, so I guess my argument has to be that Gonzalez is better than Palmeiro, Bell, Kinsler, Sundberg, Hough, and Harrah - and then the notable guys behind Gonzalez too: Rogers, Young, AROD, and Hamilton. (AROD was barely here, just really great while he was, so I think it's fairly simple to tell him to go represent Seattle or New York :)

I still favor Gonzalez as a peak candidate, Hamilton being the only one who gives him much of a challenge. Gonzalez may have deserved neither of his MVP awards, but he was a very dangerous slugger who could hold his own defensively at his peak, though he was never much of a fielding star.

Gonzalez is no HOFer, so he will have to settle for the HOVG, but he was very good.
   7. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: November 17, 2020 at 02:37 PM (#5989319)
I’m with snapper. Bonds or Clemens are such ridiculous exclusions that they don’t interest me in this kind of list. Similarly, if a guy isn’t up for election yet it’s just not that interesting, I’d rather read about Buddy Bell or someone rather than Beltre.
   8. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: November 17, 2020 at 02:42 PM (#5989322)
Aside from Dick Allen, all the Phillies players mentioned by Todd Zolecki here are from the last 20 years. Makes sense. But it would be interesting to see who else he could have dug up. Curt Simmons? Garry Maddox? Greg Luzinski?
   9. flournoy Posted: November 17, 2020 at 02:47 PM (#5989323)
Interestingly, Clemens didn't actually make the list...

Besides that, I don't like that he doubled up on Alex Rodriguez (NYY and SEA), Barry Bonds (PIT and SFG), Gary Sheffield (FLA and SDP), and Adrian Beltre (TEX and LAD). Pick one team for each of those guys and go with it, and add four new guys for the teams you didn't pick. (Clemens could have been included this way, actually...)

Also, Jeff Reardon for the Expos? I don't know who I'd pick off the top of my head, but it wouldn't be Reardon. How about Dennis Martinez?

it is not interesting to note that Adrian Beltre is the best Ranger not in the HOF, because he is going in on the first ballot ere long.


Very true, and likewise not interesting to note the same with regard to the Dodgers. Doubling up on a guy who hasn't even been on a ballot yet is pretty silly. Buddy Bell and Gil Hodges would have made much better entries.
   10. SoSH U at work Posted: November 17, 2020 at 02:56 PM (#5989326)
Also, Jeff Reardon for the Expos? I don't know who I'd pick off the top of my head, but it wouldn't be Reardon. How about Dennis Martinez?


Steve Rogers.
   11. Zonk Can Sell Culture Posted: November 17, 2020 at 03:12 PM (#5989333)
Stan Hack, #2 behind Sosa on the Cubs list, is a guy I really wish got more play as a possible veteran's pick... Lots of the focus is on still living guys who did things that have only recently been appreciated, but I think Hack is a really good approximate for the sort of player like a Lou Whitaker that gets overlooked... Good - not great - but good defender. Under-represented position. Took a walk before taking a walk was cool, but good numbers beyond that.

I'm willing to accept that Hack really should be waiting in line behind a guy like Whitaker, and I'm also willing to accept that given a careful long look, he's right on the in/out line.

But - he's far too overlooked.

The HoM discussion on Hack focused a lot on how much of a WW2 discount you give him - but he had a case as best 3B in baseball/NL at least for a few years in the 30s, too... Discount the aging Hack getting a boost in later years if you want, but I'm glad he's in the HoM at leasst.
   12. Adam Starblind Posted: November 17, 2020 at 03:35 PM (#5989354)
Gooden over Strawberry is indefensible.
   13. Rally Posted: November 17, 2020 at 03:40 PM (#5989357)
Gooden has about 10 career WAR on Straw. Plus Strawberry’s best season is nothing remarkable. Some slugger has as good or better a season just about every year. There are not many pitchers who can top, or even approach 24-4, 1.53.
   14. Walt Davis Posted: November 17, 2020 at 04:01 PM (#5989366)
#12: also they are basing it on full career, not what the player did with that team.

And if you're doing that and using players multiple times (which is silly) then how does Sheffield not also top the Brewers' list. And the Braves. Which just points out the silliness of using a player multiple times. Also put me down as not liking listing those not eligible yet. Also, unless there's a legit candidate, there' not much point listing the expansion-y teams, just say they don't have anybody.

I hadn't noticed there's an article for each team -- what a slog. I clicked on the Blue Jays and the poor writer is cursed by a headline that reads "5 Blue Jays who _should_ be in the HoF" -- welcome George Bell!!

The Cubs' list is a very solid 5 guys. I see Sheff is at least on the Braves list -- behind Murphy & Andruw -- but not even listed for the Brewers. He's somehow 4th on the Dodgers list behind Hodges and Garvey(!!) Let me guess, different writers supposedly applying the same criteria but not actually.
   15. Adam Starblind Posted: November 17, 2020 at 04:26 PM (#5989386)
There are not many pitchers who can top, or even approach 24-4, 1.53.


That was also Gooden's last excellent year, at age 20.
   16. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 17, 2020 at 04:29 PM (#5989387)
He is actually ninth on the leaderboard of WAR accumulated as a Ranger, and Ivan Rodriguez and Beltre are the only likely HOFers ahead of him,

Ivan Rodriguez is more than a likely Hall of Famer; he’s an actual HOFer — inducted in 2017.
   17. BDC Posted: November 17, 2020 at 04:30 PM (#5989389)
Well damn, how did I miss that :-D No, of course, it's just that I couldn't refer to both Pudge and Beltre as HOFers.
   18. DL from MN Posted: November 17, 2020 at 05:12 PM (#5989409)
Excluding players who haven't come up for a vote yet is a yes, excluding steroid allegation players gets iffy.

Here's my top 3 list for each team excluding ineligibles.

ARI - Luis Gonzalez, Steve Finley, Brandon Webb
ATL - Ross Barnes, Ezra Sutton, Jimmy Sheckard (obviously none of these guys ever played in Atlanta, Andruw Jones tops that list)
BAL - Urban Shocker, Vern Stephens, Mark Belanger
BOS - Roger Clemens, Manny Ramirez, Luis Tiant
CHC - Bill Dahlen, Rick Reuschel, Stan Hack
CHW - Mark Buehrle, Billy Pierce, Minnie Minoso
CIN - Heinie Groh, Bucky Walters, Dave Concepcion
CLE - Wes Ferrell, Kenny Lofton, George Uhle
COL - Todd Helton, Vinny Castilla, N/A
DET - Lou Whitaker, Darrell Evans, Bill Freehan
HOU - Roy Oswalt, Jim Wynn, Jose Cruz
KCR - Bret Saberhagen, Kevin Appier, Amos Otis
LAA - Bobby Grich, Frank Tanana, Chuck Finley
LAD - Tommy John, Don Newcombe, Orel Hershiser
MIA - Gary Sheffield, Josh Johnson, Luis Castillo
MIL - Cecil Cooper, Teddy Higuera, Don Money
MIN - Johan Santana, Frank Viola, Jim Kaat
NYM - Keith Hernandez, Dwight Gooden, Jerry Koosman
NYY - Charlie Keller, Willie Randolph, Graig Nettles
OAK - Bob Johnson, Gavy Cravath, Bert Campaneris (Tim Hudson is next)
PHI - Curt Schilling, Scott Rolen, Dick Allen
PIT - Brian Giles, Wilbur Cooper, Babe Adams
SFG - Barry Bonds, Jeff Kent, Will Clark
SEA - Jamie Moyer, Jay Buhner, Alvin Davis
STL - Mark McGwire, Jim Edmonds, Ken Boyer
TBR - Carlos Pena, Julio Lugo, Aubrey Huff
TEX - Kevin Brown, Rafael Palmeiro, Buddy Bell
TOR - Dave Stieb, John Olerud, Tony Fernandez
WAS - Steve Rogers, Dennis Martinez, Tim Wallach

NGL - Dick Redding, Grant Johnson, Quincy Trouppe
   19. SoSH U at work Posted: November 17, 2020 at 05:27 PM (#5989415)
COL - Todd Helton, Vinny Castilla, N/A


Andres Gallarraga seems more deserving of a spot than any of the Rays guys.

And Buehrle hasn't really come up for a vote yet.
   20. Mefisto Posted: November 17, 2020 at 05:40 PM (#5989419)
Bobby Bonds would be a good candidate for best Giants player not in the HOF.
   21. Sweatpants Posted: November 17, 2020 at 05:52 PM (#5989422)
ATL - Ross Barnes, Ezra Sutton, Jimmy Sheckard
Were you thinking of someone else here? Sheckard never played for the Braves.

I'm not 100% sold on Andruw Jones for the Hall, but he was better than Dale Murphy, who was the article's pick.
   22. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: November 17, 2020 at 06:53 PM (#5989441)
Out of lists in 18, I found it kind of fun to look at which team had the best list.

Needless to say Boston and SF with with Clemens and Bonds are looking good, but Boston with Clemens, Manny and Tiant is formidable. SF with Bonds, Kent and "the thrill", also looking spectacular(an ode to trumpspeak there). Philly also looking strong.
   23. DL from MN Posted: November 17, 2020 at 07:05 PM (#5989442)
Were you thinking of someone else here?


Multitasking error. I was looking them up and sitting through a zoom presentation at the same time. Go with Andruw Jones for the #3 spot then.
   24. DL from MN Posted: November 17, 2020 at 07:06 PM (#5989443)
I found it kind of fun to look at which team had the best list.


The Cubs list is pretty deep, a few more HoM picks who weren't in the top 3. Philly is good and so is Detroit.
   25. caspian88 Posted: November 17, 2020 at 07:31 PM (#5989450)
Looking at a couple other 19th century players, Jack Glasscock didn't play for a team that still exists until he was 32, and Joe Start only played one season for a team that still exists (Chicago).
   26. Walt Davis Posted: November 17, 2020 at 07:38 PM (#5989451)
The Cubs list is pretty deep

You ain't kidding. Of the 5 listed in the linked pieces, Hack is the only one that appears in the list in #18 ... so add at least Sosa, Grace, Root and Cavaretta. There are another 3 position players (from long ago) with 35+ WAR just for the Cubs plus Rizzo who probably won't be making the HoF. Zambrano and Hutchison and other guys around 30 WAR add a lot of pitching depth. Of course that's probably true of some of the other long-serving franchises.

The Cubs have also been a franchise THIS close to having a very strong single franchise team. Santo (a half-season), Sandberg (6 PAs), Hartnett (165 PA), Chance (33 PA), Cavaretta (192 PA), Root (60 IP) at least all just miss qualifying. Again probably true of other long-time franchises.
   27. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: November 18, 2020 at 09:45 AM (#5989510)
It doesn't go far enough. For instance, who's the best non-HOFer for the Keokuk Westerns, who played one season in the NA in 1875? (Actually, that's easy: Charley Jones played 12 seasons in the bigs, with 26 WAR and some actual black ink to his name!)
   28. DL from MN Posted: November 18, 2020 at 10:43 AM (#5989524)
Bobby Bonds would be a good candidate for best Giants player not in the HOF.


Bobby would probably make the top 3 if Barry gets elected.
   29. SoSH U at work Posted: November 18, 2020 at 10:53 AM (#5989526)
So how do you determine eligibility there, DL?
   30. DL from MN Posted: November 18, 2020 at 11:24 AM (#5989541)
So how do you determine eligibility there, DL?


I took HoM eligibility and subtracted Rose and Jackson. Excluded players who have not been retired 5 years. It's possible someone on that list doesn't have 10 seasons.
   31. Lassus Posted: November 18, 2020 at 11:48 AM (#5989549)
Gooden over Strawberry is indefensible.

What? No.

Checking with the article, I agree on Mex; but he lacks a gaudy stat, it was really a "if you saw him" thing as far as changing the 1B position, defensively.
   32. SoSH U at work Posted: November 18, 2020 at 11:48 AM (#5989550)
OK, so how does Keith Hernandez end up with the Mets while Andres Galarraga can't supplant N/A as a Rockie (while the Rays trio makes the cut)?

   33. DL from MN Posted: November 18, 2020 at 01:40 PM (#5989578)
Galarraga isn't in my HoM spreadsheet and he didn't show up in the Rockies leaderboard I looked at (because much of his value was not with the Rockies). I'm fine with putting him as the #3 guy on the Rockies list. He's still not worth a vote. N/A just means I gave up looking when the meeting was over.
   34. SoSH U at work Posted: November 18, 2020 at 01:54 PM (#5989585)
Galarraga isn't in my HoM spreadsheet and he didn't show up in the Rockies leaderboard I looked at (because much of his value was not with the Rockies).


I only asked because he had more career value than anyone from the Rays and he accrued more of his value with the Rockies than anywhere else (he's 11th on their career WAR leaderboard).

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