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Wednesday, August 12, 2009

The Day The Baseball Died Dugout

Happy Birthday to Christy Mathewson and Ray Schalk.

185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 11:01 AM | 106 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout

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   1. 185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 11:03 AM (#3289933)
I think I have the oldest Shooty inspired handle here.
   2. Coot Veal and Cot Deal taste like Old Bay Posted: August 12, 2009 at 11:10 AM (#3289934)
Happy Birthday to Christy Mathewson and Ray Schalk.


I have a birthday-timeline thing goin', if you'd like to peek...
   3. Mike Webber Posted: August 12, 2009 at 11:24 AM (#3289938)
CV and CD - Very Cool!!!!! Who new Michel Hernandez was 31?

GGC - I think that should be the in the heavy rotation of birthday links.
   4. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 12, 2009 at 11:29 AM (#3289943)
I think I have the oldest Shooty inspired handle here.

I had a dream last night that someone else starting calling themselves Shooty here and, in the dream, this made me very upset.

Please help me.
   5. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 12:34 PM (#3289978)
I had a dream last night that someone else starting calling themselves Shooty here and, in the dream, this made me very upset.
You might do well to take a few days off. It might also help the A's, I went away to London and the Yankees went 6-1 in my absence. That's some solid play.
   6. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 12, 2009 at 12:37 PM (#3289983)
You might do well to take a few days off. It might also help the A's, I went away to London and the Yankees went 6-1 in my absence. That's some solid play.

The Australia trip is coming up. I guarantee you I won't be wasting time here. Schooners of VB 24 hours a day is more likely.
   7. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 12:40 PM (#3289985)
Schooners of VB 24 hours a day is more likely.
That was pretty much my plan. Although I didn't go during baseball season. Did win an--outstandingly ugly--Aussie rules football for a baseball question in a pub quiz though.
   8. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq., LLC Posted: August 12, 2009 at 01:09 PM (#3290001)
The Dugout is turning into a Lounge.
   9. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 12, 2009 at 01:16 PM (#3290007)
The Dugout is turning into a Lounge.

Dance with me, sing with me, tell me the story of your life.
   10. BDC Posted: August 12, 2009 at 01:22 PM (#3290012)
Yes, Coot Veal, that's a very cool site. Except, who the hell are those guys? I was expecting to find Bob Buhl and Hal Clift, at least :)

One thing I've thought of doing and never will is to ascertain who the greatest ballplayer ever born on each date might be. Like, today would be Mathewson, unquestionably, but there could be some good debates about other birthdates. It would be an interesting 366 conversations to have. Sort of the Hall of Merit for the whimsically inclined.
   11. Mike Webber Posted: August 12, 2009 at 01:28 PM (#3290020)
Clift is in the lineup BDC, a really cool comic that tells about him, kind like a Ripley's believe it or not comic.
   12. Hack Wilson Posted: August 12, 2009 at 01:33 PM (#3290023)
I was expecting to find Bob Buhl

Make the standard worst hitter relative to his position and Buhl is in the running 952 PAs, OPS+ of -38.
   13. Coot Veal and Cot Deal taste like Old Bay Posted: August 12, 2009 at 01:35 PM (#3290027)
Buhl's in there too... the first dead guy, if I recall...
   14. BDC Posted: August 12, 2009 at 01:48 PM (#3290043)
Ah, great, I just didn't scroll far enough. Wonderful stuff ...
   15. 185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 02:05 PM (#3290070)
Inspired by Anthony Giacalone's presentation, I decided to look up how many players with long careers debuted each decade. I went with 18 years because that's what bb-ref had. I selected decades even though they may not be optimal endpoints, because it was easy for me to figure out:

1870    8
1880    11
1890    16
1900    11
1910    29
1920    25
1930    12
1940    16
1950    28
1960    57
1970    54
1980    53
1990    8 


The boost in the 60's was mainly due to expansion, but notice how it's stayed steady since then. I do think that some of the guys in the 60s were able to get early starts to their careers due to the birth dearth during the Great Depression.
   16. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 12, 2009 at 02:20 PM (#3290083)
The boost in the 60's was mainly due to expansion


I'd say "partly" rather than "mainly." If my math is correct, there were an average of 19.8 teams per year in the 1960s, after there had been 16 teams per year in the 1950s, while the number of 18-year careers more than doubled.

I'd go with Bill James' explanation: Salaries exploded in the late 1970s, when this generation of players was getting toward what used to be retirement age. Plus, the reserve clause ended, which meant that older players could shop their services among several teams rather than have to settle for whatever offer their current team felt like extending. Between the two, players now had the option to stick around for a couple more six-figure paychecks.
   17. 185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 02:27 PM (#3290094)
Fair enough, Tom. I was focusing less on why their careers lasted until their late thirties and beyond and more on how they were able to get their foot in the door early. You generally need to start early to have a long career.
   18. BDC Posted: August 12, 2009 at 02:47 PM (#3290123)
GGC, how many guys who started in the 1930s would have had 18-year careers but for the War? I can think of Johnny Mize offhand; there are probably a few others.
   19. Honkie Kong Posted: August 12, 2009 at 02:53 PM (#3290133)
GGC, how many guys who started in the 1930s would have had 18-year careers but for the War? I can think of Johnny Mize offhand; there are probably a few others.


Since there are only 12, that can be today's trivia!!


I know Ted Williams for sure. Feller?
Stan Musial?

Edit : When did the Waner brothers start? Has to be hitters right?
   20. 185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 03:01 PM (#3290154)
GGC, how many guys who started in the 1930s would have had 18-year careers but for the War? I can think of Johnny Mize offhand; there are probably a few others.


Good question. At first, I wasn't sure why there was a dropoff, but I just figured it out about two minutes ago.


Feller had 18, Williams had 19, and Musial had 22 anyways.
   21. aleskel Posted: August 12, 2009 at 03:04 PM (#3290163)
Greenberg would have had 16 years
   22. 185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 03:16 PM (#3290172)
I figured out what BStS was saying, Williams and Feller are correct, but Musial didn't start until '41.
   23. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 12, 2009 at 03:18 PM (#3290174)
Si Johnson would have had 19 years. That's the only one I can find by looking at Phillies rosters.

Hugh "Losing Pitcher" Mulcahy missed almost FIVE YEARS to the war, but still would have only had 13 years. Unless we assume he would have played well past age 33 had he not spend April 1941 through August 1945 in the Army.

It looks like Ben Chapman and Schoolboy Rowe each would have had 17 years.

Also, the sponsorship for the 1942 Phillies is certainly odd. But if you want to associate your political movement with the team that was probably the low point in the history of the losingest franchise in professional sports history, go right ahead.

[edit: Also Bob Kennedy, 16 years not counting 1943, 1944 and 1945.]
   24. Honkie Kong Posted: August 12, 2009 at 03:27 PM (#3290189)
I am racking my brains for the last 20 mins thinking of famous players from the 30s and 40s, who might qualify.

Lombardi?
Wynn?
Spahn?
Julio Franco?
   25. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 12, 2009 at 03:27 PM (#3290191)
Bob Kennedy is the only other one I can find who lost what would have been his 18th season to the war. And possibly Eddie Joost; I don't know if he was in the war or in the minors in 1944.
   26. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 12, 2009 at 03:30 PM (#3290195)
   27. 185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 03:32 PM (#3290197)
Some of the new Marxists:

Maria “mata hari” Bartiromo

Maria has been pushing all the “push the bailout” buttons that she can muster. I used to like you Maria, now I see you are just a snob elitist, a danger to working Americans.

Larry “comrade” Kudlow

Mr. Free market went socialist on a dime. At least for now he’s even stopped using his signature sign off phrase “Free market capitalism is the best path to prosperity!”. Just another flake who is out to harm you and your pocketbook.

Dylan “Che” Ratigan


Yeah, that's out there.
   28. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: August 12, 2009 at 03:42 PM (#3290205)
I think GGC meant to post #27 in the Lounge.
   29. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 12, 2009 at 03:42 PM (#3290206)
No, that's a quote from the website which sponsored the 1942 Phillies.

Virgil Trucks is another "would be 18" name.

Elmer Valo had 20 seasons even without 1944 or 1945! We don't hear much about him nowadays. The only person to play for the Philadelphia Athletics, the Kansas City Athletics, the Washington Senators, and the Minnesota Twins.
   30. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 03:54 PM (#3290216)
Also, the sponsorship for the 1942 Phillies is certainly odd. But if you want to associate your political movement with the team that was probably the low point in the history of the losingest franchise in professional sports history, go right ahead.
That fasinates me. Are these people Phillies' fans? Is there something about the '42 Phillies I'm missing? Wouldn't the 1942 Reds be a better choice?
   31. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: August 12, 2009 at 03:55 PM (#3290220)
Random Scott Podsednik stuff.

Not incrediby important, but I found it interesting.
   32. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 03:58 PM (#3290224)
Elmer Valo had 20 seasons even without 1944 or 1945! We don't hear much about him nowadays. The only person to play for the Philadelphia Athletics, the Kansas City Athletics, the Washington Senators, and the Minnesota Twins.
Also, I believe, one of only two players from Czechoslovakia to reach the Majors.
   33. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: August 12, 2009 at 03:59 PM (#3290225)
Freddy Garcia had a decent start for AAA Charlotte last night, and looks likely to get the call to start on August 18 vs. the Royals.
   34. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:00 PM (#3290226)
Hey, I came up with an impossible question.

Though no Kansas City Athletic won any major voted-on award during the team's 13-year existence, there are 12 players who received MVP votes while with the Kansas City Athletics. Name as many as possible.

Two players received votes in 3 seasons with the KCA's.
Three received votes in 2 seasons.
The remaining seven only did it once (though they may have done so at other times with other teams, or with the Oakland or Philadelphia A's).

I'll check back in half an hour or so.
   35. 185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:00 PM (#3290227)
Also, I believe, one of only two players from Czechoslovakia to reach the Majors.


You just sent the vrhovnik signal.
   36. aleskel Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:02 PM (#3290229)
Though no Kansas City Athletic won any major voted-on award during the team's 13-year existence, there are 12 players who received MVP votes while with the Kansas City Athletics.

Catfish Hunter?
Billy Martin?
   37. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:03 PM (#3290231)
I wrote something about this once. I think Valo and the other guy are not the only two people from the geogrpahic area occupied by Czechoslovakia, but are the only two born at the time it was so governed.
   38. Paul D(uda) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:04 PM (#3290233)
This was mentioned in the Rios thread, but Randy Ruiz has had one heck of a minor league career. Seems very strange that eh wasn't promoted more aggressively when he was younger. And by my aggresively, I just mean at a normal rate.
   39. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:10 PM (#3290239)
Bob Cerv?
Ed Charles?
Jose Tartabull?
Dick Howser?
   40. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:10 PM (#3290240)
Bob Cerv (1958) is correct. Good guesses otherwise...Dick Howser was an All-Star and 2nd in ROY voting in his rookie season, but didn't finish anywhere in the MVP voting.

One of them did become an A's Hall of Famer, but it wasn't Billy Martin or Catfish Hunter.

I think Valo and the other guy are not the only two people from the geogrpahic area occupied by Czechoslovakia, but are the only two born at the time it was so governed.


Two of the three players born in the Austro-Hungarian empire were from towns in what became Czechoslovakia. The other one has no town listed, but Koukalik is probably a Czech name. (lucky he didn't get his Americanized like "Quinn" and "Rooney" did)
   41. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:18 PM (#3290245)
One of them did become an A's Hall of Famer, but it wasn't Billy Martin or Catfish Hunter.

Bert Campaneris?
Dick Williams?

Roger Maris
   42. Craig in MN Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:19 PM (#3290246)
This was mentioned in the Rios thread, but Randy Ruiz has had one heck of a minor league career. Seems very strange that eh wasn't promoted more aggressively when he was younger. And by my aggresively, I just mean at a normal rate.

I noted the same thing when he was with the Twins. It seems like everyone said every year that he was old for the league he was in, so his performance wasn't that notable. But there's no excuse for having him not even get a chance at AA until he was 27. It seems like a Moneyball team would have snatched him up before that.
   43. Kiko Sakata Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:23 PM (#3290252)
One of them did become an A's Hall of Famer, but it wasn't Billy Martin or Catfish Hunter.


Bert Campaneris? He's the only guy other than Hunter I can think of from the 1970's A's who might go back to KC.
   44. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:27 PM (#3290256)
Two of the three players born in the Austro-Hungarian empire were from towns in what became Czechoslovakia. The other one has no town listed, but Koukalik is probably a Czech name. (lucky he didn't get his Americanized like "Quinn" and "Rooney" did)
Only on BBTF can someone pick something like this up and ran with it. I love this place.
   45. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:29 PM (#3290257)
One of them did become an A's Hall of Famer, but it wasn't Billy Martin or Catfish Hunter.


Bert Campaneris? He's the only guy other than Hunter I can think of from the 1970's A's who might go back to KC.


Gus Zernial?
   46. Young Blasarius yonder Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:31 PM (#3290259)
Vic Power?
   47. Davo Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:35 PM (#3290264)
Though no Kansas City Athletic won any major voted-on award during the team's 13-year existence, there are 12 players who received MVP votes while with the Kansas City Athletics. Name as many as possible.
Norm Siebern is one of them... I remember from some article looking back on the Maris trade, saying the A's weren't ripped off that much during it.

For guesses... Maris. Campaneris. Power. Shantz. Lumpe. Hunter. Charles. Cerv.

Just 9? Wow.... um..... well, I'll just guess Yankees then. Ralph Terry. Art Ditmar. McDougald.

EDIT: And one's a Hall of Famer?!?! Ummm... wasn't Reggie Jackson a KCA? I'll go with him in place of McDougald, whom I'm thinking may have never actually played for the A's...
   48. stewbrew Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:38 PM (#3290267)
troika of brewers moves:

hardy to AAA, castro canned

third one, not mentioned in article, is DFA of Bill Hall and purchase of Jason Bourgeouis from Nashville.
   49. 185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:38 PM (#3290270)
What caused the increase in long careers by guys starting in the teens anyways? Theories?
   50. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:40 PM (#3290275)
Yes...
Bob Cerv: #4, 1958. Hit .305/.371/.592 with OPS+ of 159. 38 home runs (he never hit more than 20 in any other season). I blame roids.

Norm Siebern: #14, 1961 / #7, 1962 / #27, 1963. The prize in the Roger Maris trade, as davoarid astutely observes.

Jerry Lumpe: #25, 1962. The prize in the Ralph Terry trade.

Bert Campaneris: #29, 1965 / #10, 1966

Vic Power: #9, 1955 / #27, 1956 / #21, 1957
   51. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:44 PM (#3290279)
What caused the increase in long careers by guys starting in the teens anyways? Theories?
World War I? Or maybe something with increased scouting and the established nature of the league made it easier to bring up players, fewer were with minor league clubs, etc.
   52. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:47 PM (#3290282)
When did the Waner brothers start?


Paul in 1926, Lloyd in 1927. Both were essentially through by 1940, and neither might have had an 18-year career *except* for the war.

-- MWE
   53. greenback used to say live and let live Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:47 PM (#3290283)
DFA of Bill Hall

Joe Sheehan was right!
   54. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 12, 2009 at 04:52 PM (#3290291)
Correct answers: Cerve, Lumpe, Siebern, Power, Camperis.

Others:

- I mentioned him earlier, and he inspired this list/question.
- Shortstop, was a bonus baby and spent three years as an incompetent teenager with the Orioles.
- Went 16-13 (3.16) in 1959, good for an All-Star appearance and MVP votes. Then went 16-16 (4.56) and led the league in runs given up in 1960. Which was good for another All-Star appearance and MVP votes.
- There is no way anyone will guess Bill Tuttle, so my clue is "His name was Bill Tuttle".
- outfielder, #11 in 1956 and his only All-Star game. Then in 1957-59 he played for the A's, the Yankees, the A's, the White Sox, and the Pirates. Hence his nickname.
- outfielder, was #23 in one year with the KCA's, but voted in the top ten four times with other AL teams.
- later played with the Pilots and spent 3 years with the Yankees. Got MVP votes when he threw 113 relief innings and led the league with 32 saves in 1966.
   55. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:01 PM (#3290304)
outfielder, #11 in 1956 and his only All-Star game. Then in 1957-59 he played for the A's, the Yankees, the A's, the White Sox, and the Pirates. Hence his nickname.

Harry "Suitcase" Simpson.
   56. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:01 PM (#3290306)
- later played with the Pilots and spent 3 years with the Yankees. Got MVP votes when he threw 113 relief innings and led the league with 32 saves in 1966.

Bouton? Was he on the A's?
   57. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:02 PM (#3290310)
- later played with the Pilots and spent 3 years with the Yankees. Got MVP votes when he threw 113 relief innings and led the league with 32 saves in 1966.
Jack Aker?
   58. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:03 PM (#3290311)
- outfielder, was #23 in one year with the KCA's, but voted in the top ten four times with other AL teams.

Bob Cerv?
   59. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:03 PM (#3290312)
Yes, Harry "Suitcase" Simpson. Not to be confused with Harry "The Hat" Walker.

Bouton - wrong. Jack Aker (mentioned in Ball Four as the unanimously respected player rep) - yes.

- outfielder, was #23 in one year with the KCA's, but voted in the top ten four times with other AL teams.

Bob Cerv?


Bob Cerv was already a correct answer. I probably should have made #50 and #54 one post instead of two.
   60. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:06 PM (#3290318)
Harry "Suitcase" Simpson. Not to be confused with Harry "The Hat" Walker.

Nicknames were much better back in the day.

Bob Cerv was already a correct answer

Ah. I probably should pay more attention.
   61. Kiko Sakata Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:13 PM (#3290334)
What caused the increase in long careers by guys starting in the teens anyways? Theories?


How many were pitchers vs. position players? If the increase is in pitchers, I have a theory (I have the theory anyway, but it would be applicable here).

My theory is this. Young pitchers have better survival rates in lower-offense environments, where pitching is less stressful so you get fewer pitcher injuries during those critical years in the early 20s when pitchers seem the most vulnerable. Conversely, pitchers have worse survival rates in higher-offense environments. Managers are kind of slow to react to changes, so when you have a case where the offensive environment suddenly becomes much higher (and stays at that higher level) - e.g., 1920, 1969, 1993 - managers won't adjust pitcher workloads accordingly and as a result they'll blow out the arms of that generation of young pitchers. So the previous generation - pitchers who debuted in the 1910s, the 1960s, and the late '80s-early '90s - have to fill in the gap and end up looking better by comparison (because the best of the next generation aren't there to be compared to) and have longer careers (because they're facing less competition from the next generation of pitchers trying to take their jobs).

If you look at that big group of durable 300-game winner workhorses of the 1970s and 1980s - Ryan, Carlton, Seaver, Perry, Niekro, Sutton - as well as the near-300 game winners - Palmer, Jenkins, Kaat, John - these guys all debuted in the high-mound mid-60s and then were able to stick around for 20 years in part because the next generation (Tanana, Guidry, Fidrych, Valenzuela, Stieb, et al.) weren't able to survive the same kinds of workloads that their managers tried to put on them.(*)

Again, the great "current" generation of pitchers - Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, Glavine, Smoltz, Schilling, Mussina, down to guys like David Wells and Jaime Moyer, all debuted prior to 1993 and then there's a gap in terms of guys who debuted in those first few years of the current high-offense era (1993 - 1998, say) and went on to have Hall-of-Fame caliber careers.(**)

I don't know enough about pitchers of the 1910s and 1920s off the top of my head, but certainly the top-level guys - Walter Johnson and Pete Alexander - saw great success lasting into the 1920s. Carl Mays is another guy off the top of my head who debuted in the deadball era and was able to last into the 1920s, whereas I'm drawing a blank on good or great pitchers who debuted in the 1920s before, say, Lefty Grove (1925) or Carl Hubbell (1928).

(*) The exception in the 1960s-80s period is Bert Blyleven, who didn't debut until 1970, two years after the mound was lowered. He has the misfortune of being mistakenly compared to the generation just before him, so that Blyleven's durability relative to his true peers (Tanana, Morris, Guidry) is obscured somewhat.

(**) The exception in the 1990s is Pedro Martinez, who technically debuted in 1992 but had his first full season in 1993. On the other hand, somewhat reinforcing my theory, Pedro was viewed as somewhat less durable than most of the other "great" pitchers who debuted just before him. He was just so damn good that his greatness couldn't be denied.
   62. Davo Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:14 PM (#3290337)
There is no way anyone will guess Bill Tuttle, so my clue is "His name was Bill Tuttle".

I seem to recall he had a big "anti chewing tobacco" pitch for baseball players going on late in life--I think he got some kind of mouth cancer as a result of constant chewing as a player.

later played with the Pilots and spent 3 years with the Yankees. Got MVP votes when he threw 113 relief innings and led the league with 32 saves in 1966.
Diego Segui?
   63. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:16 PM (#3290341)
You're right, that could have been a clue for Bill Tuttle. I should look at the "bullpen" pages too instead of just the stats. A wasted opportunity.

Not Diego Segui, Jack Aker. Whose real name was apparently "Jackie Delane Aker".
   64. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:19 PM (#3290348)
- Shortstop, was a bonus baby and spent three years as an incompetent teenager with the Orioles.


Ron Hansen?
   65. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:21 PM (#3290350)
- Went 16-13 (3.16) in 1959, good for an All-Star appearance and MVP votes. Then went 16-16 (4.56) and led the league in runs given up in 1960. Which was good for another All-Star appearance and MVP votes.


Bud Daley?
   66. esseff Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:25 PM (#3290358)
Colavito?
   67. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:29 PM (#3290364)
Bud Daley?

Yes!

Colavito?

Yes!

Ron Hansen?

Guess again!
   68. 185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:31 PM (#3290367)
Pete Alexander     1911    1930    20    3
Clarence Mitchell     1911    1932    18    6
Ray Schalk     1912    1929    18    2
Cy Williams     1912    1930    19    2
Eppa Rixey     1912    1933    21    2
Herb Pennock     1912    1934    22    3
Rabbit Maranville     1912    1935    23    5
Wally Schang     1913    1931    19    5
Edd Roush     1913    1931    18    4
Rube Bressler     1914    1932    19    5
Red Faber     1914    1933    20    1
Sam Jones     1914    1935    22    6
Babe Ruth     1914    1935    22    3
Dolf Luque     1914    1935    20    4
Charlie Jamieson     1915    1932    18    3
Joe Judge     1915    1934    20    3
Sam Rice     1915    1934    20    2
Muddy Ruel     1915    1934    19    6
Bob O
'Farrell     1915    1935    21    4
Rogers Hornsby     1915    1937    23    5
Val Picinich     1916    1933    18    6
Burleigh Grimes     1916    1934    19    7
Charlie Grimm     1916    1936    20    4
Tom Zachary     1918    1936    19    7
Jesse Haines     1918    1937    19    2
Waite Hoyt     1918    1938    21    7
Jimmie Dykes     1918    1939    22    2
Frankie Frisch     1919    1937    19    2 


Maybe 10 of those guys were pitchers? Contrast that with the '20s:

Kiki Cuyler     1921    1938    18    4
Goose Goslin     1921    1938    18    3
Luke Sewell     1921    1942    20    4
Johnny Cooney     1921    1944    20    3
Ossie Bluege     1922    1939    18    1
Syl Johnson     1922    1940    19    4
Gabby Hartnett     1922    1941    20    2
Jimmie Wilson     1923    1940    18    3
Ted Lyons     1923    1946    21    1
Charlie Gehringer     1924    1942    19    1
Al Simmons     1924    1944    20    7
Red Ruffing     1924    1947    22    3
Freddie Fitzsimmons     1925    1943    19    2
Jimmie Foxx     1925    1945    20    4
Paul Waner     1926    1945    20    4
Joe Cronin     1926    1945    20    3
Mel Ott     1926    1947    22    1
Lloyd Waner     1927    1945    18    5
Dick Bartell     1927    1946    18    5
Mel Harder     1928    1947    20    1
Rollie Hemsley     1928    1947    19    7
Al Lopez     1928    1947    19    4
Rick Ferrell     1929    1947    18    3
Doc Cramer     1929    1948    20    4
Bobo Newsom     1929    1953    20    9 
   69. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:33 PM (#3290369)
There is no way anyone will guess Bill Tuttle, so my clue is "His name was Bill Tuttle".


Actually, what you could have done for this one is "later became the poster boy for what happens to players who use spit tobacco", and someone like me or GGC would have gotten it.

EDIT: #62 beat me to it.

Ron Hansen?


Good guess, but wrong. Hansen never played for the A's; he played for the Royals during the last year of his career.

-- MWE
   70. esseff Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:33 PM (#3290371)
Interesting update on Juan Encarnacion.

And the Post-Dispatch's Derrick Goold chimes in with this background:

Encarnacion was somewhat of an enigma — especially for fans — around the Cardinals, as he was one Cardinal who did not attend the World Series parade in 2006 and, as La Russa said, he always “glided” instead of chugged. But outside the lines, Encarnacion was a thoughtful, reserved, witty, and intriguing personality. He came from a family of accomplishment — academic accomplishment — and he was happy to brag on what his siblings had achieved. So, in several ways, a run for a Senatorial seat in the DR shouldn’t be a surprise.
   71. Davo Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:35 PM (#3290372)
I mentioned him earlier, and he inspired this list/question.
I have to assume this is Elmer Valo, though he must have been pretty damn old by the time he got to KC.
   72. esseff Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:35 PM (#3290373)
poster boy


Literally. Awful, awful photo of a man with a good part of his face missing that certainly would have scared me off smokeless tobacco had I been a user.
   73. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:36 PM (#3290375)
Was the SS Wayne Causey?

-- MWE
   74. Davo Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:37 PM (#3290378)
Actually, what you could have done for this one is "later became the poster boy for what happens to players who use spit tobacco", and someone like me or GGC would have gotten it.
I remember reading about it in a Reader's Digest article when I was like 13, and for some reason I still haven't forgotten Tuttle's name.
   75. RJ in TO Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:38 PM (#3290382)
these guys all debuted in the high-mound mid-60s and then were able to stick around for 20 years in part because the next generation (Tanana, Guidry, Fidrych, Valenzuela, Stieb, et al.) weren't able to survive the same kinds of workloads that their managers tried to put on them.(*)


Dave Stieb shouldn't be in that group. He was still a highly effective 200+ IP guy into his early 30s, and his career was derailed by a collision at 1B (which led to back problems, which led to a change in his motion to prevent aggravating his back, which led to tendonitis). Absent that collision, he had as good a chance as any pitcher of continuing to be effective for another 5 or 6 years.

The other guys were overpitched and hurt their arms. Pitching wasn't what caused Steib's problem.
   76. aleskel Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:40 PM (#3290383)
Interesting update on Juan Encarnacion.

He certainly wouldn't be the .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) member of the Dominican legislature.
   77. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:41 PM (#3290388)
Elmer Valo, though he must have been pretty damn old by the time he got to KC.


He came with the club in 1955, when he was 34. The A's released him in May of the following season, and he began the nomadic phase of his career.

-- MWE
   78. Davo Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:42 PM (#3290391)
How many do we have left?
   79. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:44 PM (#3290394)
(**) The exception in the 1990s is Pedro Martinez, who technically debuted in 1992 but had his first full season in 1993. On the other hand, somewhat reinforcing my theory, Pedro was viewed as somewhat less durable than most of the other "great" pitchers who debuted just before him.
I don't think Pedro was unfairly viewed as less durable than others, although he obviously was outstanding in a way they weren't in the innings he pitched.
   80. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:46 PM (#3290397)
None left, I think. I double-checked BB-Ref after posting #73 and Wayne Causey is correct, as is Valo.

So we have Cerv, Siebern, Lumpe, Campaneris, Power, Valo, Causey, Daley, Tuttle, Simpson, Colavito, and Aker.

-- MWE
   81. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:48 PM (#3290401)
Yes, Wayne Causey! And Elmer Valo of course. He spent 15 years with the A's and was released one season after they moved to KC, but he played for several years after that, mostly as a pinch-hitter.

So, that's everyone, I think. I regret not looking for info about Bill Tuttle. And yet, you see, we've learned more about Bill Tuttle today than about any other player.

He isn't actually missing part of his face in this poster (part of the jawbone, maybe?), but he does look pretty bad.
   82. Kiko Sakata Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:50 PM (#3290403)
The other guys were overpitched and hurt their arms. Pitching wasn't what caused Steib's problem.


Fair enough. I was trying to think of guys whose HOF/HOM case was undercut by a short career and didn't know/remember exactly why.
   83. Davo Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:50 PM (#3290406)
I'm obligated to point out that the guy who asked the question missed one--Woodie Held picked up a 19th place vote in 1957, on the obvious strength of his .233 batting average in 93 games in the outfield.
   84. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:51 PM (#3290408)
I could also ask "Who are the only two players to have equalled Elmer Valo's mark of two bases-loaded triples in one game?", but after the obvious guess of Duane Kuiper, people would be stymied by the other one.

Edit: Woodie Held? Aha....I didn't find him here because I was searching for "KCA", and he played for "TOT" that year, as a result of his one at-bat with the Yankees before becoming part of the Ralph Terry-Billy Martin-Ryne Duren-Harry "Suitcase" Simpson trade.
   85. 185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:55 PM (#3290412)
Fair enough. I was trying to think of guys whose HOF/HOM case was undercut by a short career and didn't know/remember exactly why.


Who were the guys from the 20s who this applies to? This is interesting stuff, but I have to mix it in with work.
   86. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 05:58 PM (#3290418)
Nick Swisher just took a walk on, roughly, is 8000th full count of the season. Does anyone have an idea of the record for full counts in one year?
   87. Davo Posted: August 12, 2009 at 06:01 PM (#3290424)
Does anyone have an idea of the record for full counts in one year?
Jimmy Rollins set a record with 778 plate appearances in 2007. So even if he went to a full count every time he went to the plate, Nick Swisher is still ahead of him by over 7,2000.
   88. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 12, 2009 at 06:03 PM (#3290426)
That was a great question, Crispix. Thanks for throwing it out there.
   89. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 06:07 PM (#3290433)
Just for sake of it, Swisher has 94 full counts this year, a little more than 20% of all plate appearences. In his 2007 year, Rollins had 87, total.

Perhaps not surprisingly, he's second in the AL in pitches/plate appearence.
   90. Kiko Sakata Posted: August 12, 2009 at 06:13 PM (#3290447)
Who were the guys from the 20s who this applies to? This is interesting stuff, but I have to mix it in with work.


I don't know the 1920s as well as the 1970s and the 1990s, since I was alive and a fan in the latter two periods.
   91. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 06:31 PM (#3290472)
Another walk, another full count. 95!
   92. 185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 06:34 PM (#3290478)
I don't know the 1920s as well as the 1970s and the 1990s, since I was alive and a fan in the latter two periods


Not many posters were. I just figured this might've come up at the HOM. I dunno, maybe Pete Donohue?
   93. Kiko Sakata Posted: August 12, 2009 at 06:38 PM (#3290484)
I don't know the 1920s as well as the 1970s and the 1990s, since I was alive and a fan in the latter two periods.


With that caveat, skimming through Innings Pitched leaders in the first half of the 1920s, guys who might be guys who were overworked young and lost effectiveness because of it could include Eddie Rommel, Elam Vangilder, Sloppy Thurston, Joe Shaute, Virgil Barnes, Johnny Morrison, and Pete Donohue. I've never heard of most of these guys but they were guys who didn't pitch before 1920, were among league leaders in IP at a relatively young age in the early 1920s, and had relatively short careers thereafter.

In terms of why the 1910s saw a spike in long careers, two other thoughts occur to me. First, the Federal League might have given a few of these guys a chance to start their career a few years earlier than if it hadn't existed, and second, the banning of players in the late 1910s/early 1920s (Black Sox being the most prominent, of course) might have opened up more opportunities for guys to stick around longer.

But in terms of the 1910s and 1920s, I'm flying fairly blind. There are guys on your list in #68 that I've never heard of.
   94. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 06:44 PM (#3290497)
Sloppy Thurston
Really? Man, nicknames were good back in the day.
   95. 185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 06:50 PM (#3290511)
There are guys on your list in #68 that I've never heard of.


I'm familiar with many of the names, but there were a few where I had to guess "pitcher or hitter?"
   96. 185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 07:03 PM (#3290547)
Rosy Ryan, Hugh McQuillan, Emil Yde.
   97. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 07:19 PM (#3290585)
Damn, I would have liked to gotten in on that KC A's trivia.

Indians claim P RJ Swindle off waivers from the Rays

Pirates claim P Jon Meloan off waivers from the Rays
   98. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 07:32 PM (#3290609)
Indians claim P RJ Swindle off waivers from the Rays

Pirates claim P Jon Meloan off waivers from the Rays
Richard discovers Rays wavied P RJ Swindle and P Jon Meloan
   99. 185/456(GGC) Posted: August 12, 2009 at 07:42 PM (#3290624)
Richard discovers Rays wavied P RJ Swindle and P Jon Meloan


Jon learns of the existence of P RJ Swindle and P Jon Meloan. Check that. I may've heard of Swindle before.
   100. Chris Dial Posted: August 12, 2009 at 07:55 PM (#3290651)
No one metnion Joe DiMaggio for starting his career in the 1930s?
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