help me i am in hell

As a Braves fan, I want to enjoy this but I can't. I remember the anguish of Millwood for Estrada. My condolences.

Yeah, except Millwood for Estrada turned out to be (dare I say it) a good trade.

(For the Braves, I mean.)

Kazmir, Huber, Wigginton, Peterson gone... like tears in rain.

Well I'm not quite ready for self-immolation, but I did physically retch when I read the news on ESPN.

In the game chatters I sort of got to know many of you, and I recognized the excitement you had about the future. Mets fans could see a powerhouse just a couple years away. It is a shame that has been taken away from you.

My condolences.

This thread sucks. The whole thing sucks.

I just don't understand this. Is the idea to enable the Mets to compete this year by improving the pitching? In that case, surely for Kaz, Wiggy, Peterson, Huber and Diaz they could have made a run at Randy Johnson? That sounds like more of a fair deal to me. Sure RJ could have nixed it, but it would be nice to imagine they tried.


Kazmir
Wigginton
Peterson
Huber
Diaz.

How far does this set the farm system back? 2001?

It could be worse, you could be a Phillies fan.

this freaking sucks. i registered for primer just to b*tch about it. why the hell did they do it? Hubner is a great prospect.

Eric (He plays like his hair is on fire) Byrnes got traded to the Mets?

they didn't even get anyone decent. i just don't understand the mets. the team has a bright future for the first time in years, and they torch it. and my dog died and my wife left me today too...

I know you're not a Kazmir fan, baudib, but I've gotta tell you...this might just be as bad as it can possibly get.

Short of trading David Wright for Lou Merloni.

Yeah, except Millwood for Estrada turned out to be (dare I say it) a good trade.

Quite true. At the time though, I felt dead inside. (A sign a take baseball way to seriously of course) I can only imagine how Mets fans feel. This is worse.

Jeez... they traded the crown princes and kings-to-be for a couple of aging court jesters with bad arms...

AND they got fleeced by the two WORST front offices in baseball!

AND there's a report that Zambrano has a tweak in his elbow!!!!

The powerhouse hasn't completely been taken away...

Zambrano, if Peterson can as advertised, fix this flaw in his delivery which is causing the walks, could be a legit #2 type starter. Now, I'm skeptical of any player becoming something they aren't, but I can't deny what Peterson seems to have done so far. Furthermore, what Mazzone has done with Jaret Wright has given me faith in pitching coaches.

The Mets also control him for the next 3 years.

Sure they got hosed a bit, but I'm not that high on Huber or Peterson, so the only major loss was Kazmir, who remains to be seen if he's a starter or a reliever. If he turns into merely a suber relief pitcher, then 3 years of Zambrano for him isn't too bad.

Yeah, I know I'm flailing.

duquette has accomplished a first - he's the first GM who ever got hosed by chuck lamar in a trade.

The worst loss is Huber. People are overlooking that right now.

Where did Byrnes to the Mets come from?

This thread won't reach PETCO or Donor levels, but it should easily beat John F. Mabry.

Huber has always struck me as an overrated prospect. His numbers, even at catcher, don't warrant the hype.

Huber has always struck me as an overrated prospect. His numbers, even at catcher, don't warrant the hype.

So wait, you're not a fan of catchers with a .400+ OBP?

Mabry for Giambi was at least a one-for-one change-of-scenery deal. THIS is an organization saying that it must mortgage its future for a SLIM playoff chance and get the best pitchers out there, even though the best AREN'T ANY GOOD!

Did anyone else see Wigginton crying when they interviewed him? Talk about a Mets lifer...

I'm not a fan of catchers with .232 MLEQAs. He's a good prospect, but he's not an elite level prospect, which is where I've seen him listed by some.

There's Almost No Such Thing As A Catching Prospect.

I'm not a fan of catchers with .232 MLEQAs. He's a good prospect, but he's not an elite level prospect, which is where I've seen him listed by some.

And his absense leaves absolutely no major league potential catchers in the whole system and Jason Phillips and Vance Wilson in the majors.

Catcher was already a weak position, maybe even weaker than outfield in this organization, and they traded the only guy ready.

Plus his MLEQA in AAA is .258...

This thread won't reach even 300 because the other thread will take a lot away from it. I don't agree with baudib much, but I agree that Huber could easily have a bad year and his prospect status is gone for ever. Toby Hall, Josh Paul, Victor Martinez, and JR House are the last big catcher prospects. Martinez is the only one worth 2 shits really.

Someone mentioned Byrnes to the Mets? That must be the Reyes for Byrnes rumor.

Joe Mauer?

Yeah, I can't believe I forgot Joe Mauer. Jeff Mathis is having a pretty poor year, of course he's young and it's just 1 year, but it certainly wasn't want the Angels were hoping for. I figure I've also forgotten plenty of busts as well. Like Ben Davis. Olivo too, although he might be turning it around.

Toby Hall, Josh Paul, Victor Martinez, and JR House are the last big catcher prospects.

Hall hit for average, but never took a walk and had no pop in the minors. Josh Paul had no pop, no walks, no average. Martinez we know about. House has fallen to injuries. Your list has no pertinence to Justin Huber in my opinion.

LOL, god the Mets front office is dumb.

There are times in your life when you realize you stand on the brink of a life-changing event. This is one of those times. I have rooted for the New York Mets since 1984. Over the past 20 years, my love for this team has only intensified, despite the many years of embarrassment and heartache they have brought me. Today is the saddest day of my life as a New York Mets fan. I have never been closer to abandoning this team entirely and casting my lot with another baseball team. I cannot guarantee that this won’t happen, even after the shock and disgust of this trade wears away.

I do know this – this is one of the worst trades in New York Mets history and I want anyone who thinks otherwise to read this one year from now, two years from now, five years from now and know that, from the beginning, some of us knew just how bad this day was going to be for the future of this franchise.

(Shameless plug: http://spanishharlemheat.tripod.com/spanishharlemheat/)

Miguel Olivo<Justin Huber.

Huber's .258 MLEQA came in a grand total of 19 plate appearances at AAA.

Pardon me if I pass on using that.

Rumor has it that Duquette was not behind these trades; it was Wilpon and Al Goldis

Think Steve Phillips is enjoying his dinner tonight?

More importantly than his MLEQA, bibigon, is that he projects to have a .286 EQA when he develops. If you expect him to hit well in the majors now, then that's just stupid.

He might be able to outhit Jason Phillips right now.

ouch.

"Zambrano, who has been bothered by tendinitis, will be evaluated when he joins the club before a determination is made about when he will start."

well, maybe Peterson can make it work, but it would have been fun to see Kaz develop under his tutelage.

Mike Jacobs?

I am shocked. When I first read the headline I assumed they had aquired Carlos Zambrano, which would have been somewhat better.

Which is why I consider Huber to be a good prospect, just not a great one.

This is an argument in semantics. I was taking issue with someone's claim that the worst loss was Huber, when its Kazmir who's the real loss.

Mike Jacobs?

He's injured for the year and he's essentially had one great year in the minors so far, in the great hitting environment of Binghamton.

I'm skeptical on him. Better pure power than Huber, not quite the plate discipline and he might not stick at catcher either because of defensive reasons. He'll also be 24 next year I believe.

Speaking of catchign prospects what about Quiroz (sp?) of the blue Jays, he seems to be fairly highly touted.

This is an argument in semantics. I was taking issue with someone's claim that the worst loss was Huber, when its Kazmir who's the real loss.

I think the idea is not the actual player, but how they lost him. To trade for a former Rule V pick to get a deal for Benson done... not a good move.

50 pitches for 7 outs from Lohse, he wont be going deep into this one.

bah, wrong thread, obviously.

I'll assume along with you Phil, 1 more year then I can afford to get cable!!

These trades just proves that Jeff Wilpon is a great baseball executive, golf player, and a very handsome man!

Regardless of what you think of Kazmir, Huber, and Peterson as prospects the issues really are the 1) organizational philosophy and 2) what they got in return.

Re: 1 The Mets are 6 games out of first behind 3 teams. They have a very slim chance to win the divsion. Not only that, the company line has been all along..."we're building for the future." That's why we didn't sign Vlad, this is a long process. So while it is true that Kazmir may blow out his arm and Huber maybe can't catch in the majors and his bat isn't good enough for 1st and maybe Peterson isn't more than a 4th or 5th starter it's worth hanging on to them to find out.

Most Met fans were pretty content with the way the season has been going. This looks like a team that could be a division winner next year with the right moves. They're not a game out when they could at least argue, "flags fly forever". There is no organizational plan.

Re 2) They got absolute garbage back in return. Benson is a decent starter. Is he worth a 1) cheap utility IF, 2) a C who will be cheap for 6 years and may be a damn good hitter and 3) a starter who could probably be as good as Benson? No ####### way!

And the Kazmir trade really takes the cake. Victor Zambrano not only sucks he has a bad elbow.

Okay, the point with Huber is this: the Royals basically traded Jose Batista for Huber. That's an amazing steal. Can anyone give me a logical explanation as to why the Royals were in on the deal? The Pirates obviously would have done better had they kept KC out of it.

Not that I'm complaining...

Jesus Christ this is like a headline out of the Onion--"Mets trade entire minor league system for two lousy pitchers." The Mets were not going to win the division this year. Now they won't win it next year, or the year after, or the year after.

"House has fallen to injuries."

This'd be the same J.R. House who put up a 1.116 OPS in the AFL, and followed it up with a .857 OPS at AAA this year?

He was hurt, but then he got better, and re-commenced smacking the #### out of the ball.

I'd like to hope Zambrano is damaged goods and the trade is void.

That'll help me sleep tonight.

The best part of today for Mets fans is that Wright wasn't traded.

Vlad, I was referring to what stalled his progress, sorry that I did not make that clearer.

This'd be the same J.R. House who put up a 1.116 OPS in the AFL, and followed it up with a .857 OPS at AAA this year?

Yeah. The JR House with bad BB:PA and BB:K ratios. He is still only 24 and when he did play last year he was pretty good. But what he's doing this year doesn't make me think he can post a .300 OBP in the majors. He does have power, but nobody ever questioned that. He could end up being a decent major leaguer, I don't think he's going to ever be posting .857 OPS's in the majors though.

FWIW, I just spoke with someone quite familiar with the D-Rays, in a professional sense. He said Zambrano "will pitch a no-hitter one of these days. ... He'll walk 21 guys doing it, but he'll get that no-hitter."

What's the story on Huber? I checked his stats on Baseball America, and I'm more confused than when I started.

When I saw that the Royals had traded Bautista, I thought they had traded Denny Bautista -- the guy lighting up Double A. Reading the article, I find it was Jose Bautista -- who I think is best described as "you know, that one guy? The Rule 5 guy? No, not the fast one -- the other one." I think the Royals picked him up for cash when Randa got hurt.

In return, they get a 21 year old catcher who hit .271/.414/.487 in Double A and .313/.421/.438 in Triple A? Did the guy drop a piano on his foot, or what? Does he have some major personality issue that make him significantly worse than his statistics?

What's really weird is that Bautista-for-Huber looks like the only reason they were involved in this trade. The Pirates could have simply kept Huber, and you'd have to think the Mets could have dug up somebody as good as Bautista if they really wanted to.

And all the Mets can offer us in the official story:

Get your Benson and Zambrano jerseys

Oops. Only 16 AB in AAA.

Does he have some major personality issue that make him significantly worse than his statistics?

There are concerns about his defense and sticking at catcher. That's about it.

I think the Mets did this deal so they could unite Tom Glavine with his younger, right-handed doppleganger, Kris Benson.

Sorry about the prospects, Mets fans.

There are concerns about his defense and sticking at catcher. That's about it.

Seems a little Nick Johnsonish. That is too ready to get the HBP. That doesn't work well in the big leagues.

So. This is the roster we are going to win the East with, right?

Piazza
Wilson
Phillips
Zeile
Reyes
McEwing
Matsui
Wright
Floyd
Cameron
Hidalgo
Valent
Garcia

Glavine
Leiter
Trachsel
Zambrano
Benson

Bottalico
Franco
Stanton
Moreno
Parra
DeJean
Looper

Seems a little Nick Johnsonish. That is too ready to get the HBP. That doesn't work well in the big leagues.

But, IF he sticks at catcher, he'll be a good hitter for a catcher, even if he is Nick Johnsonish the way Nick Johnson is now.

So. This is the roster we are going to win the East with, right?

That's the best looking roster you've had in years.

That's the best looking roster you've had in years.

I think the 1999 team is better than this, without a question.

But, IF he sticks at catcher, he'll be a good hitter for a catcher, even if he is Nick Johnsonish the way Nick Johnson is now.

Yes if he can get some ABs, he might be a good hitting catcher, but I'd be concerned.

btw-I first read that as "if he stinks at catcher" which really changes the whole meaning.

Not to pile on, but Met fans can no longer brag about having a system far superior to the Yankees.

think the 1999 team is better than this, without a question.

End to end ... yes. You only have a few position players where its close. Your starting pitching is better than '99. Moreover, that was 5 years ago.

Kindly explain the "Boy Wonder" thing to me.

Kindly explain the "Boy Wonder" thing to me.

It's self appointed.

..."we're building for the future" = "we would never make a serious offer for Vladimir Guerrero". There was never any serious intent to build for the future.

It's self appointed.

I still don't get it. Are you like a wrestling tag-team or something. If so I think you need a little more like "Marvelous Matt" and "Jammin' Jeremey" in the parenthesis.

You also need a good manager. I think Jim Coronette is looking for work.

I'd like to hope Zambrano is damaged goods and the trade is void.

I didn't even think of that. Did the D-Rays ever run an MRI on him?

I still don't get it. Are you like a wrestling tag-team or something. If so I think you need a little more like "Marvelous Matt" and "Jammin' Jeremey" in the parenthesis.

Being what we think, as the two youngest ones on here, we appointed ourselves the Boy Wonders.

If you'd like to manage, I think we are currently accepting resumes.

Can I be Boy Wonder#3?

Being what we think, as the two youngest ones on here, we appointed ourselves the Boy Wonders.

Then you probably don't get the Jim Coronette/Midnight Express joke.

If you'd like to manage, I think we are currently accepting resumes.

If you are a heel team I think my reputation speaks for itself. I can certainly announce your presence when you enter threads, and throw you a steel pipe if Treder or Davis beating up on you.

Can I be Boy Wonder#3?

Find a fourth and I'll create a JJ Dillon handle. (Not sure if you'd get that one either.)

Find a fourth ..

How old is Richie?

Can I be Boy Wonder#3?

That whole Yankee fan things is gonna hurt your candidacy.

WE WIN THE NL EAST!

Er..WE BEAT THE BRAVES!

Er...

I wish I were you enough to be a Boy Wonder. Young Adult Wonder With a Lousy Job #1 doesn't have much ring to it.

Oh...oh well, I guess it wasn't meant to be.

Also, now that I've gotten over the shock of the sheer stupidity of the Mets dealings today I must say that it's not fair that the Mets get to sell their farm in an attempt to buy a championship. Maybe they should be forced to have a good farm...like the Yankees. (/sarcasm...kind of)

Now I want all you pencil neck saberists to put down your spreadsheets and show some respect for the finest thing to hit baseball analysis since you little whiny brats read Bill James. The stats-defying, all encompassing.. Booyyyy Wonders
Jammin' Jeremey, Marvelous Matt, Hot Jorge, and Ravishing Richie. Now which one of you losers is going to step into the squared comment box to challenge the future and franchise of Baseball Primer.

</practicing>

There's my audition tape.

Okay, I'll take it into consideration.

By the way, can someone pin this thread on the BP page. I'd like it if we kept this going for the remainder of the season.

As a Phillies fan, I am delighted by this, never again will I have to hear Mets fans speak of Kazmir as the second coming.

It could be worse, you could be a Phillies fan.

Yup. ;(

Find a fourth and I'll create a JJ Dillon handle. (Not sure if you'd get that one either.)

Matt = Ole, Jeremy = Arn (the original tag team), but if I'm in, do I get to be Ric?

but if I'm in, do I get to be Ric?

Let's see what you got Nature Boy

As a New York television viewer, this all makes me sad. I was excited to watch the you fellers teh Mets were bringing up, even if I', not a Met fan. Now, I get to see Chris Benson make his mediocre way through three months and Victor Zambrano walk a man an inning for the next three years? I'd like to punch Fred Wilpon in his face.

I'm not defending this. I think it's incredibly stupid. I'm just trying to understand.

OK, let me TRY to see what they were thinking. I don't think this is really about this year. Sure, if they can get hot, if Peterson can straighten out Zambrano, maybe they can get back into it, but I don't think that's what Wilpon's thinking. I think this is about winning in 2005. There's a pretty good chance Leiter's going to retire after this season. If he does, and if they don't believe in Seo or Heilman, that gives them only 2 starting pitchers for next year. Benson and Zambrano make it 4 reasonably reliable starters (in their mind, at least).

If they really don't believe Huber can be an effective catcher, then I suppose it's not unreasonable to think that nobody they traded could be relied upon for next year's team. There are important members of the team who aren't going to last much longer (Glavine, Piazza, Floyd), so Wilpon may think he has to go for it next season.

Now that doesn't explain why they thought they needed to get these guys now, as opposed to picking them up (or players just as good) in the offseason. And I have a feeling that Kazmir got traded primarily because of the "attitude issues" (remember, Wilpon just got embarassed by Spencer this week, and he worries WAY too much about this). And it may say something that Kazmir's name was out there in trade talks - we all heard about this yesterday - and it doesn't seem like anyone else made an offer.

And one thing just to offer a sliver of hope. Imagine it's 1994 and they did something like this and gave up Izzy and Pulse. We probably would have reacted the same way we are now.

Oh, and this team is never going to be successful until the Wilpons either let people who know what they're doing run it or sell the frickin' team.

Let's see what you got Nature Boy

Can I make one really good post, and repeat it over and over again for 30 years?

Izzy and Pulse

Off the top of my head these guys did not have very impressive minor league careers. Kazmir has.

They are congratulating themselves (or so the NY Times story says) on this. How they can possibly believe these trades make even a single ounce of sense, much less be cause for congratulations, is mystifying to me.

When I was 15 years old, the Mets broke my heart with a trade of my boyhood idol. They got back crap for the greatest right-handed pitcher ever, the greatest player in their history, and the hero who led them in from the wilderness. I was living in Miami, listening to the scratchy Braves' radio broadcast from Atlanta, hoping that they wouldn't have word the Mets had traded Seaver. When they announced the deal had been made, and I heard the litany of players (and I use that term very loosely) they got in return, I was shattered. I tore to shreds the scrapbook of clippings & box scores I'd been keeping all season. I screamed at the radio, as if it was the radio's fault. To this day, I think part of my visceral dislike of the Braves traces back to the fact that it was their announcers who broke the news, and broke my heart.

Tonight, they've done worse. They broke the pact they made with the fans, the pact that said they were going to do things differently. That they'd learned the price of trying for the quick fix, of frittering away young players for the sake of piecing together a faux contender. That they were asking us to be patient, because they were going to build a deep, productive farm system.

Yeah, right. To spend on nothing. I won't be fooled any more. You don't learn a lesson, Wilpon, you just don't figure it out. There IS such a thing as a pitching prospect, and a catching prospect, and Scott Kazmir and Justin Huber were -- are -- the real McCoy. Are you so obtuse that you didn't learn absorb ANYTHING from the excitement created by Jose Reyes last year? You just threw away a huge part of the team you were supposed to build on the foundation laid by Reyes and Wright.

On what? Let's see . . . Kris Benson. Lifetime losing record. Lifetime 4.27 ERA. Hasn't had an ERA+ of even 100 since 2000. Last two years, a W/K ratio of 86/147. This year? 44/83 -- better, but not exactly the stuff an ace is made of. Over the three years, 130/230. Ugh. And that's not cherry-picking stats -- those are the only relevant numbers, because they're post-injury.

And Victor Zambrano??? Oh, lord. The man walked 106 batters in 188 innings in 2003 -- and he's even worse this year! He has 96 walks in 128 innings! Not to mention 16 HBP. All he is is "stuff," unharnessed as of yet at the age of 29 (well, 29 next week).

Buster Olney has it exactly right in his breakdown on ESPN.com.

I didn't watch the game tonight. I don't know when I'll watch again. It takes a lot for me not to watch my Mets. Not to even want to. They managed to turn the trick. What began as fury is gradually turning into a mix of anger and utter sadness at the ineptitude. Wake me when the nightmare is over.

Imagine it's 1994 and they did something like this and gave up Izzy and Pulse. We probably would have reacted the same way we are now.

Imagine its 1982 and we trade Darling and Terrell for Lee Mazzilli.

This organization has an annoying habit of making moves as if one player will push them over the top. This is not the case. With respet to the push for 2005, the 2005 team will be older than the 2004 team - John Franco will be 44 and McEwing 32, for example.

The "long-term plan" was the spin put on the Vladdy publicity stunt turned bad.

In 1995, Jason was 9-1 for Norfolk with 1.55 ERA and a 3.1 K/BB ratio.

That was the year he was a combined 21-4 in AA, AAA and the majors.

As for Bill, there was no higher level minor league dominance.