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Wednesday, January 11, 2006

Times Union: Ettkin: Ain’t like the hall for the rockers

From Sterling Slaughter to Slaughter and the Dogs…who’ll be the next in line?!

And as much as it vexes me that Bruce Sutter was chosen for baseball immortality Tuesday as worthier candidates Bert Blyleven and Goose Gossage were bypassed again, it is better to honor only the best rather than lower standards so those who were merely good may meet and further diminish them.

Otherwise you get a Hall of Fame that bestows its most prestigious honor on Ritchie Valens (how much musical influence can a boy with a small body of work who dies at 17 exert?), Gene Pitney, and the Pretenders, all of whom didn’t sustain greatness—if they ever achieved it.

You end up with Hall of Famers such as Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, a solid but unspectacular group that hewed to the middle of the road but never transcended it.

Repoz Posted: January 11, 2006 at 12:24 PM | 58 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. BDC Posted: January 11, 2006 at 12:51 PM (#1815704)
Any Hall of Fame without Gene Pitney is one that I don't want to visit.
   2. Johnny Tuttle Posted: January 11, 2006 at 01:01 PM (#1815712)
Etkin must really not like how easy it seemingly is for an entertainer to get a Hollywood Star.
   3. Dr. Vaux Posted: January 11, 2006 at 01:06 PM (#1815716)
If the R&R HOF elects based on potential, next thing you know they'll be inducting Pergolesi because of that Robert Silverberg story...
   4. Spencer Benedict Posted: January 11, 2006 at 02:02 PM (#1815781)
My 1976 edition of The Rolling Stone Illustrated History of Rock and Roll only makes one mention of Richie Valens, predictably in the Buddy Holly section.

I also agree with the comment on Tom Petty, et. al. Compilers.
   5. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: January 11, 2006 at 03:08 PM (#1815899)
If the R&R HOF elects based on potential, next thing you know they'll be inducting Pergolesi because of that Robert Silverberg story...

You an IASFM subscriber back in the day, too? Grendel Briarton, we hardly knew ye...
   6. Kevin Sweet Child Romine (aco) Posted: January 11, 2006 at 03:26 PM (#1815936)
Rock and Roll HOF inductees

The Lovin' Spoonful inducted before Black Sabbath? No MC5? King Curtis a sideman? Yeesh.
   7. If theres a bunt w'all remember twas back in ol 92 Posted: January 11, 2006 at 03:50 PM (#1815985)
McCartney's solo stuff but no love for the Wings?

Come on
   8. "Catching Dianetics" by Dr. L. Ron Karkovice Posted: January 11, 2006 at 03:56 PM (#1816000)
Jefferson Airplane but no Jefferson Starship.....You must be joking....These guys literally built this city on Rock and Roll!
   9. "Catching Dianetics" by Dr. L. Ron Karkovice Posted: January 11, 2006 at 04:03 PM (#1816011)
Les Paul is in the friggin Rock and Roll Hall of Fame....as an "early influence"....WHY!?!, because he invented a guitar that Ace Freely Used? That is ridiculous. At least, I believe, that self-promoting a$$-clown Quincy Jones hasn't been inducted yet.... The MC5, Stooges, Television, Patti Smith, Lester Bangs, and Right Said Fred are sadly missing.
   10. Spencer Benedict Posted: January 11, 2006 at 04:05 PM (#1816018)
No MC5?

They'd get my vote.

Lovin' Spoonful but no Donovan?
   11. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: January 11, 2006 at 04:05 PM (#1816019)
IronChefWokIHateWhitePeople would like the BBHOF to resemble this.
   12. sunnyday2 Posted: January 11, 2006 at 04:09 PM (#1816023)
>it is better to honor only the best rather than lower standards so those who were merely good may meet and further diminish them.

This is a completely bogus argument. The BBWAA is not within miles of sins of commission considering it cant' agree on Blyleven or Gossage or Trammell. Sutter and Rice are not bad choices compared to those already enshrined, they are only bad choices when compared to those also waiting at the gate. To say it is worth it to keep Bert and Goose out in order to maintain standards is sorta like the guy who once said it's worth it to occasionally execute an innocent man so that people will be afraid to commit crimes.
   13. Kevin Sweet Child Romine (aco) Posted: January 11, 2006 at 04:19 PM (#1816036)
If you ignore Les Paul's music (about as far from Rock and Roll as you can get), he's worthy; as is Leo Fender. Don Leslie and Robert Moog should be there, too.

Forgot about the Stooges. Glaring omission, that.
   14. Starring RMc as Bradley Scotchman Posted: January 11, 2006 at 04:21 PM (#1816039)
Any Hall of Fame without Gene Pitney is one that I don't want to visit.

It isn't very pretty what a Hall without Pitney can do.
   15. Kevin Sweet Child Romine (aco) Posted: January 11, 2006 at 04:32 PM (#1816051)
Well done, RMc.
   16. Repoz Posted: January 11, 2006 at 04:40 PM (#1816066)
The Stooges...are sadly missing.

Yes, this is part of the great Peanut Butter Conspiracy.
   17. TerpNats Posted: January 11, 2006 at 04:45 PM (#1816075)
Les Paul is in the friggin Rock and Roll Hall of Fame....as an "early influence"....WHY!?!, because he invented a guitar that Ace Freely Used? That is ridiculous. At least, I believe, that self-promoting a$$-clown Quincy Jones hasn't been inducted yet....

Have you heard Les' latest album, made with a variety of rockers? Not bad for a guy of 90. And he is as much an "early influence" to rock (listen to his closing chords on "The World Is Waiting For The Sunrise" -- very rock-oriented) as Louis Armstrong, who merely helped invent popular singing with scat and other techniques. Also, did you know that Quincy Jones produced and arranged many of Lesley Gore's hits while an A&R man at Mercury?

But comparing the Rock and Baseball halls...since the Everly Brothers were charter inductees, does that make Don Christy Mathewson and Phil Walter Johnson?
   18. CFiJ Posted: January 11, 2006 at 04:50 PM (#1816084)
Seriously, a Rock and Roll HOF without Les Paul would be like a baseball HOF without Chadwick, without Veeck.
   19. Kevin Sweet Child Romine (aco) Posted: January 11, 2006 at 04:59 PM (#1816104)
Les Paul also could be credited with inventing multi-track recording - a pretty important development for R&R.
   20. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: January 11, 2006 at 05:09 PM (#1816130)
Seriously, a Rock and Roll HOF without Les Paul would be like a baseball HOF without Chadwick, without Veeck.

No, it would be like a baseball HOF without the guy who pioneered the round bat.

Also, did you know that Quincy Jones produced and arranged many of Lesley Gore's hits while an A&R man at Mercury?

That's grounds for eternal damnation.
   21. "Catching Dianetics" by Dr. L. Ron Karkovice Posted: January 11, 2006 at 05:13 PM (#1816142)
Les Paul also could be credited with inventing multi-track recording - a pretty important development for R&R.

- That's funny, i don't recall Hasil Adkins ever using a new-fangled multi-track recorder and his music sounds great.

- Stephen Foster invented the American Popular song and many marches that influenced early Jack Handy blues pieces. Shouldn't he be honored by the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Without him, there might not be a Screain Jay Hawkins....

-Similarly, withou Rogers and Hammerstein influence, it is possible that the Who's Tommy would never have seen the light of day.

- Without Boston's Barbarians, Chicago's Cryan' Shames, or legendary jazz drummer Chick Webb, Def Leopard's one armed Drummer would have given up the skins at a young age.

- Lonnie Donnigan's "Does your chewing gum lose it's flavor on the bedpost at night" paved the way for Dr. Demento and Weird Al Yankovich.
   22. Loren F. Posted: January 11, 2006 at 05:51 PM (#1816228)
Is there a sabremetrics movement for rock and roll? One that statistically shows that Al Kooper was underrated? Or that measures Paul McCartney's On Bass Percentage?
   23. Loren F. Posted: January 11, 2006 at 05:53 PM (#1816234)
Is there a sabremetrics movement for rock and roll? One that looks at the Parks effect on the Beach Boys? Or measures Paul McCartney's On Bass Percentage?
   24. My guest will be Jermaine Allensworth Posted: January 11, 2006 at 05:55 PM (#1816239)
Or measures Paul McCartney's On Bass Percentage?

The bassist from Tower of Power would lap the league in this category.
   25. "Catching Dianetics" by Dr. L. Ron Karkovice Posted: January 11, 2006 at 06:04 PM (#1816266)
Paul McCartney would have never mastered the Bass has he not viewed a life-changing informercial starring Ron Popeil, founder and President of RonCo, creators of the revolutionary and exciting new Bass-o-Matic
   26. Kevin Sweet Child Romine (aco) Posted: January 11, 2006 at 06:10 PM (#1816282)
The bassist from Tower of Power would lap the league in this category.

Sure, but he was on the juice.
   27. My guest will be Jermaine Allensworth Posted: January 11, 2006 at 06:16 PM (#1816294)
Francis Rocco Prestia was the guy I was thinking of (early '70s TOP), but I did not know that about Conte.
   28. Bad Doctor Posted: January 11, 2006 at 06:20 PM (#1816310)
The Sex Pistols are getting inducted in 2006. Why not Albert Belle?
   29. Mug is the antichrist to you Posted: January 11, 2006 at 06:22 PM (#1816312)
- Without Boston's Barbarians, Chicago's Cryan' Shames, or legendary jazz drummer Chick Webb, Def Leopard's one armed Drummer would have given up the skins at a young age.

After predicting that he'd lose his arm in 1984?
   30. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: January 11, 2006 at 06:29 PM (#1816338)
The Sex Pistols are getting inducted in 2006. Why not Albert Belle?

Not vacant <u>enough</u>.
   31. "Catching Dianetics" by Dr. L. Ron Karkovice Posted: January 11, 2006 at 06:44 PM (#1816382)
- Without Boston's Barbarians, Chicago's Cryan' Shames, or legendary jazz drummer Chick Webb, Def Leopard's one armed Drummer would have given up the skins at a young age.

After predicting that he'd lose his arm in 1984?


Don't conduse me with the facts...My point was that, like Phil Rizzuto, Tommy McCarthy, Johnny Evers, Ray Schalk, Tony Perez, Dave Bancroft, Travis Jackson, Rube Marquard and Rabit Maraniville DEF LEOPARD SUCKS.
   32. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: January 11, 2006 at 07:04 PM (#1816427)
pour some sugar on me

*beats drum with one arm*
   33. Nuclear Dish Posted: January 11, 2006 at 07:26 PM (#1816478)
The most egregious snub so far for the R&R HOF is no doubt Van Halen. In fact, I am relatively sure that most people assume they are already in. But they are not, despite having become eligible in 2003.
   34. Nuclear Dish Posted: January 11, 2006 at 07:28 PM (#1816487)
Can someone please explain how Blondie got in this year and not VH?!?!
   35. Jeff K. Posted: January 11, 2006 at 08:31 PM (#1816629)
DEF LEOPARD SUCKS.

But what are your feelings about Def Leppard?
   36. "Catching Dianetics" by Dr. L. Ron Karkovice Posted: January 11, 2006 at 08:38 PM (#1816654)
DEF LEOPARD SUCKS.

But what are your feelings about Def Leppard?


I feel that Def Leppard sucks just as badly as their cover band Def Leopard that I refernced above!
   37. Boots Day Posted: January 11, 2006 at 08:51 PM (#1816693)
At least Lynyrd Skynyrd finally got in this year. I have been lobbying for their selection for years -- one of the voters is a good friend of mine -- so you guys can thank me any time.

The most egregious snub so far for the R&R HOF is no doubt Van Halen.

They're probably trying to figure out a way they can put Van Halen in without having to induct Van Hagar.
   38. MM1f Posted: January 11, 2006 at 09:18 PM (#1816755)
How dare he question the greatness of Tom Petty
   39. "Catching Dianetics" by Dr. L. Ron Karkovice Posted: January 11, 2006 at 09:20 PM (#1816766)
Can someone please explain how Blondie got in this year and not VH?!?!

TWO SIMPLE REASONS:

1. NIGEL

2.The "Fab Five Freddy" Factor
   40. Kevin Sweet Child Romine (aco) Posted: January 11, 2006 at 09:29 PM (#1816790)
They're probably trying to figure out a way they can put Van Halen in without having to induct Van Hagar.

That raises an interesting point: now that Black Sabbath will finally be inducted, does that mean that Ronnie James Dio, Vinnie Appice, Geoff Nicholls, Tony Martin, Cozy Powell, Dave "The Beast" Spitz, Neil Murray, Ian Gillan, Glenn Hughes, Bev Bevan, Bob Daisley, Laurence Cottle, David Donato, Ray Gillen, Joe Burt and Terry Chimes will all be Hall of Famers?
   41. Boots Day Posted: January 11, 2006 at 09:30 PM (#1816793)
1. NIGEL

2.The "Fab Five Freddy" Factor


3. The top Debbie Harry wore in the "Dreaming" video, with a hole cut out to show off her cleavage
   42. Charlie O Posted: January 11, 2006 at 09:31 PM (#1816796)
Many, many years ago I watched a music awards show on TV because Van Halen was nomintated for an award. At a time when rock radio in my hometown was being dominated by the likes of Jackson Browne, The Eagles, The Don'tbie Brothers, etc., this was pretty exciting. It may have been the Grammy Awards and the award may have been Best New Artist. Anyway, Van Halen lost to The Cars. I haven't watched any of those music awards shows since.
   43. Greg Franklin Posted: January 11, 2006 at 09:52 PM (#1816851)
Seems to me that Petty is a low-grade Neil Young, who's already in. So I agree with the article writer: THUMBS DOWN.

Clearly we will need a Keltner test for a given artist in question. Please evaluate these questions. ("He" means solo M/F artist, or group)

1. Was he ever regarded as the best artist ever? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best artist ever?

2. Was he the leading member of his generation of artists?

3. Was he the best member of his generation at his position (guitarist, vocalist, etc.)? Was he the best ever in rock at his position?

4. Did he have an impact on a number of Grammy races?

5. Was he good enough that he could tour and record regularly after passing his prime?

6. Is he the very best artist in history who is not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?

7. Are most artists who have comparable discographies and sales figures in the Hall of Fame?

8. Do the artist's discography and sales figures meet Hall of Fame standards?

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the artist was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

10. Is he the best artist at his position (guitarist, vocalist, etc.) who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

11. How many Grammy-award-winning-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win a Grammy? If not, how many times was he nominated? How many end-of-year Top 10 critics' lists did he make? Did most of the artists who made this many Top 10 critics' lists go into the Hall of Fame?

12. If this artist was the headliner of a music festival, would it be likely that the festival would sell out?

13. What impact did the artist have on rock history? Was he or one of his recorded or live performances responsible for any governmental, commercial, or cultural changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the rock world in any way?

14. Did the player uphold the standards of behavior and decorum that the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?
   44. "Catching Dianetics" by Dr. L. Ron Karkovice Posted: January 11, 2006 at 10:18 PM (#1816930)

14. Did the player uphold the standards of behavior and decorum that the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?


This would be a pretty funny criteria, and would likely bar 95% of the inductees from admission. That being said, is Michael Jackson, who clearly passes the Keltner test, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame equivelant of Pete Rose?
   45. "Catching Dianetics" by Dr. L. Ron Karkovice Posted: January 11, 2006 at 10:21 PM (#1816941)
After all Michael Jackson was accused of sticking his Chien Meng Wang in little Boys' Pujols after Mickey Mantling them...He was never found guilty of these horrendous charges....Rose, on the other hand gambled on baseball, but still (kind of) claims he never bet on his own team while he was an active player/manager.
   46. Spencer Benedict Posted: January 11, 2006 at 10:43 PM (#1816981)
Seems to me that Petty is a low-grade Neil Young, who's already in. So I agree with the article writer: THUMBS DOWN.

A Poor Man's McGuinn.

I love Greg's list, but I place no credence on the Grammy's.
   47. Greg Franklin Posted: January 11, 2006 at 11:21 PM (#1817062)
This would be a pretty funny criteria, and would likely bar 95% of the inductees from admission.

Given that this is the R&R HOF, I suggest this criterion should be interpreted ironically. The "standards of behavior and decorum" are supposed to include acts of debauchery, gluttony, and depravity.

I love Greg's list, but I place no credence on the Grammy's.

You may not, but just as some BBHOF voters use RBIs and World Series appearances to cast their ballots, some R&R HOF voters use Rolling Stone magazine and VH-1 specials.... or both!
   48. vortex of dissipation Posted: January 11, 2006 at 11:38 PM (#1817110)
You end up with Hall of Famers such as Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, a solid but unspectacular group that hewed to the middle of the road but never transcended it.

Oh, bull! Tom Petty's about the most consistent American artist of his era, on a par with Springsteen or whomever. He's not a great singer, but he's a great songwriter, and has written enough great songs to be a true Hall-of-Famer. Plus any band with Mike Campbell and Belmont Tench gets bonus points...

Petty can fill a 4-CD compilation with great music:

Disc 1

1 The Waiting
2 American Girl
3 Jammin’ Me
4 You Wreck Me
5 I Need to Know
6 Refugee
7 I Won’t Back Down
8 Learning to Fly
9 Free Girl Now
10 Don’t Come Around Here No More
11 You Got Lucky
12 A Woman In Love (It’s Not Me)
13 Don’t Do Me Like That
14 Breakdown
15 Free Fallin’
16 Into the Great Wide Open
17 Mary Jane’s Last Dance
18 Walls (Circus)
19 Here Comes My Girl
20 Change of Heart
21 Runnin’ Down a Dream

Disc 2

1 Rebels
2 Straight Into Darkness
3 Stop Draggin’ My Heart Around
4 Casa Dega
5 You Don’t Know How It Feels
6 Money Becomes King
7 Even the Losers
8 A Thing About You
9 Hometown Blues
10 Listen to Her Heart
11 Climb That Hill
12 Swingin’
13 A Face in the Crowd
14 You and I Will Meet Again
15 Waiting for Tonight
16 Make It Better (Forget About Me)
17 Runaway Trains
18 It’s Good to Be King
19 You Can Still Change Your Mind

Disc 3

1 Somethin’ Else
2 So You Want to Be a Rock’N’Roll Star
3 Taxman
4 Cry to Me
5 I’m Crying
6 Don’t Bring Me Down
7 King’s Highway
8 King’s Road
9 Letting You Go
10 Ways to Be Wicked
11 Shadow of a Doubt (A Complex Kid)
12 California
13 Magnolia
14 All the Wrong Reasons
15 All Mixed Up
16 Echo
17 Have Love Will Travel
18 Surrender
19 Peace in L.A.
20 Love Is a Long Road
21 Louisiana Rain

Disc 4

1 Wildflowers
2 It’ll All Work Out
3 Alright for Now
4 Angel Dream (No. 4)
5 The Wild One, Forever
6 No Second Thoughts
7 Insider
8 The Last DJ
9 Anything That’s Rock’N’Roll
10 Dogs on the Run
11 Think About Me
12 Trailer
13 Something in the Air
14 Out in the Cold
15 Fooled Again (I Don’t Like It)
16 When the Time Comes
17 Time to Move On
18 You and Me
19 Blue Moon of Kentucky
20 You’re Gonna Change (Or I’m Gonna Leave)
21 I Will Run to You
22 Last Night
23 The Best of Everything
24 Christmas All Over Again

That can stand up with anyone!
   49. vortex of dissipation Posted: January 11, 2006 at 11:45 PM (#1817123)
Oh, and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is a joke until Peter Gabriel, Richard Thompson, King Crimson, and Kate Bush are inducted...
   50. vortex of dissipation Posted: January 11, 2006 at 11:52 PM (#1817137)
Belmont Tench

Yes, I know it's Benmont...
   51. David Posted: January 12, 2006 at 08:32 AM (#1817687)
Could someone please tell me why The Beatles had to wait unti 1988 to get inducted. How could they have not been eligible for the first ballot, because they were not American? What a joke.
   52. vortex of dissipation Posted: January 12, 2006 at 09:30 PM (#1818679)
Could someone please tell me why The Beatles had to wait unti 1988 to get inducted. How could they have not been eligible for the first ballot, because they were not American? What a joke.

An artist is not eligible until the first vote which comes 25 years after the release of their first record. The induction ceremony is held the year after that vote. The Beatles' first record under their own name came out in 1962, so they would be eligible in 1987. They were elected on their first try in 1987, and the induction ceremony was held in January, 1988.
   53. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 12, 2006 at 09:44 PM (#1818697)
Is that Tom Petty list for real? It kinda seems like it is. Last DJ and Great Wide Open definitely suck. I haven't heard of three-quarters of those songs. Free Fallin' is pretty fun, but hardly HoF quality.
   54. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: January 12, 2006 at 09:52 PM (#1818711)
vortex, anybody else in your record collection you want to pimp? 'Cause if you're a Kajagoogoo fan, I guess they should be in the hall too.

Awesome Keltner list.
   55. Mug is the antichrist to you Posted: January 12, 2006 at 09:57 PM (#1818715)
vortex, anybody else in your record collection you want to pimp? 'Cause if you're a Kajagoogoo fan, I guess they should be in the hall too.

This is hilarious, considering that the counterargument amounts to "I'm not a Tom Petty fan, so they shouldn't be in the hall."
   56. vortex of dissipation Posted: January 13, 2006 at 06:10 AM (#1819389)
Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 12, 2006 at 04:44 PM (#1818697)
Is that Tom Petty list for real? It kinda seems like it is. Last DJ and Great Wide Open definitely suck. I haven't heard of three-quarters of those songs. Free Fallin' is pretty fun, but hardly HoF quality.


Of course it's for real - it's a 4-CD best of Tom Petty set that I made for a friend's birthday...
   57. Baldrick Posted: January 13, 2006 at 07:02 AM (#1819445)
4 CDs and you missed some of his very best songs:
Keeping Me Alive
Turning Point
Crawling Back to You
To Find a Friend
A Higher Place

All five of those would be among my top 20 songs by him.

Definitely Petty should be in the HOF. He's not The Beatles or Dylan or the Stones (though frankly I'd personally much rather listen to him than either of the last two), but he's been putting out good, great, and occasionally fantastic albums for 30 years. He's Eddie Murray: a strong start (Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, Long After Dark) followed by a HOF peak (Damn the Torpedoes, Hard Promises, Southern Accents with the slight mis-step of Long After Dark), and then a long series of solid, though not necessarily fantastic, efforts, with an occasional flash of greatness (Full Moon Fever, Wildflowers).

Plus, he was in the Traveling Wilbury's and that has to count for something.
   58. vortex of dissipation Posted: January 13, 2006 at 07:16 AM (#1819448)
4 CDs and you missed some of his very best songs:
Keeping Me Alive
Turning Point
Crawling Back to You
To Find a Friend
A Higher Place

All five of those would be among my top 20 songs by him.


That just proves how many great songs he has done...

"A Higher Place" was actually the very last song I cut from the set - I like Wildflowers, but I think the stronger tracks are towards the beginning of the album, and all three of the ones you listed are from towards the end. I'll have to go back and listen to it again, as I will the two songs you mentioned from the box set...

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