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Saturday, May 29, 2010

Todd Jones: Ryan Howard’s deal won’t affect Pujols’ or Fielder’s

Must find my The Todd phenomenon: Ex-grand druid vrs. the Illuminati ; fact or phantasy? book for further research.

Why Howard’s deal won’t serve as the floor in Fielder’s or Pujols’ extension negotiations:

Fielder: Because of different revenue situations, Milwaukee money doesn’t equally convert to Philadelphia money. The Brewers can’t—and shouldn’t—pay Fielder as much as the Phillies can pay Howard, and that will be an obstacle in negotiations. Fielder and Howard both play first base, hit cleanup and are the most feared hitters in their respective lineups. But Fielder doesn’t have a World Series ring or an MVP award. If it gave Fielder a Howard-like deal, Milwaukee wouldn’t be able to afford to put quality players around him. And, really, who cares how much money you make if you can’t win?

Pujols: The idea that Howard’s deal will affect Pujols’ next contract is even crazier than thinking that it will affect Fielder’s. Pujols has no peer. What the Cardinals must ask themselves: Is Pujols the best player/person in baseball? Is he an ambassador for the game? Does he project what we try to teach our young players about how to play the game? Does he affect our financial bottom line? Is he durable and consistent? Would every other team in baseball pursue him if they could afford him? Did we save money on his current deal (seven years, $100 million)? The answer to all of those questions is yes. So, St. Louis should give Pujols whatever he wants, never once worrying about Howard’s price.

Repoz Posted: May 29, 2010 at 12:48 PM | 36 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: brewers, business, cardinals, media, phillies

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Law Boy Posted: May 29, 2010 at 01:11 PM (#3545675)
Every time a new contract raises or cements a salary bar, it has the potential to provide leverage in another player's subsequent contract negotiations. To ignore that is to stick one's head in the sand. Pujols and Fielder will get more because Howard received an AAV of $25m than they would if the AAV was $20m.
   2. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: May 29, 2010 at 01:29 PM (#3545677)
Fielder better start hitting to keep his rep in that class. Right now he's Dmitri Young.
   3. Darren Posted: May 29, 2010 at 02:08 PM (#3545692)
No reason to link to this loser. Hes not even interesting.
   4. Esoteric Posted: May 29, 2010 at 02:36 PM (#3545700)
Todd Jones isn't a loser, IMO. He's actually fairly decent and likable as far as ex-athlete columnist go.

Oh wait, let me guess: you're still holding the homosexuality comments against him like a good little fascist stormtrooper. Jesus Christ.
   5. Greg K Posted: May 29, 2010 at 03:06 PM (#3545711)
Because of different revenue situations, Milwaukee money doesn’t equally convert to Philadelphia money. The Brewers can’t—and shouldn’t—pay Fielder as much as the Phillies can pay Howard, and that will be an obstacle in negotiations

Not to engage in this Todd Jones Loser yay or nay discussion, I really have no idea which is accurate, but isn't this an argument that Fielder's contract WILL be influenced by Howard's? Creating an obstacle in the negotiations.
   6. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: May 29, 2010 at 03:09 PM (#3545713)
Oh wait, let me guess: you're still holding the homosexuality comments against him like a good little fascist stormtrooper. Jesus Christ.

This is an unusual method of preaching tolerance.
   7. jmp Posted: May 29, 2010 at 03:22 PM (#3545718)
I don't think the Howard contract will have any relevance to a deal with the Brewers. It may to whatever team Prince signs with should he choose to not stay with Milwaukee.

There was an internet rumor that the Brewers were going to offer Prince 6/$109M after Boras suggested that Fielder should get 8/$200M. Obviously the Brewers know Prince won't sign for that, so the question is what would be the most the Brewers would be willing to offer. My total guess is 6 years/$120M. And as Harvey notes, if Prince doesn't show signs of improvement this year I doubt he would even get that offer.
   8. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: May 29, 2010 at 03:35 PM (#3545722)
I always found Jones to be pretty damn insightful and interesting when talking about the nuances of playing ball or life as a big leaguer.

I'm not sure contractual analysis is his bailiwick.
   9. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 29, 2010 at 03:53 PM (#3545727)
Yeah, Darren, if you don't like someone because of their bigotry, that makes you a Nazi.

As for the article, I really don't think Prince Fielder is more feared than Ryan Braun.
   10. Swedish Chef Posted: May 29, 2010 at 03:54 PM (#3545728)
No reason to link to this loser. Hes not even interesting.

Well, he writes from a major league player's perspective, thus being more interesting than most chaff here by default.

Similarily, I don't mind Chass links, enervating as he can be, as he sometimes uses his phonebook and talks to people in baseball rather than just blowiate.
   11. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: May 29, 2010 at 04:05 PM (#3545732)
Todd Jones is the coolest baseball player I've ever communicated with - just a regular guy with a great sense of humor.
   12. Ron J Posted: May 29, 2010 at 04:38 PM (#3545744)
I agree with Greg in #5. It has the potential to compicate negotiations by creating expectations both as to length and AAV of the contract.

Now I've argued often enough that other people's mistakes aren't binding on you, but as long as a player can be easily compared to Howard you have to deal with Howard's contract or face losing the player.
   13. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 29, 2010 at 06:32 PM (#3545778)
Every time a new contract raises or cements a salary bar, it has the potential to provide leverage in another player's subsequent contract negotiations. To ignore that is to stick one's head in the sand. Pujols and Fielder will get more because Howard received an AAV of $25m than they would if the AAV was $20m.
I'm not understanding your use of the term "leverage" here. How does it "provide leverage"?

A player's sole "leverage" in negotiations is the willingness of some other team to pay him more than his current team is offering, and while the Phillies' contract with Howard is evidence that some other team may be willing to pay Fielder lots of money, it does not itself constitute an offer from that team.
   14. Walt Davis Posted: May 29, 2010 at 07:21 PM (#3545793)
Well, Jones cheats a bit by claiming that the Howard contract won't be the "floor" for Fielder and Pujols. He has a perfectly legit argument as to why it won't be the floor for Fielder -- Fielder isn't as "feared" as Howard, doesn't have the MVP, probably not as popular with the fans (Fielder is popular I think but I get the impression Howard is very popular). So Jones might be technically correct in that Howard's contract doesn't set a floor for Fielder -- but it pretty clearly sets a "target". Howard's contract will definitely play a role in any Fielder negotiation.

His argument regarding Milwaukee's resources though is just strange. That's an argument for Fielder walking away from Milwaukee when he's an FA -- both to get more money for himself and to surround himself with better players (due to greater team resources). Sure, Milwaukee may not be able to afford $25 M to Fielder (and have enough left over for others) but that doesn't mean that the Howard contract doesn't impact on what Fielder will find acceptable.

His argument with regard to Pujols is interesting -- Pujols is so much better than Howard that it doesn't matter what Howard signs for. In short, Pujols was already going to get over $25 M so that a less player signed for $25 M doesn't matter. That's probably not quite true but it's close enough.
   15. Lassus Posted: May 29, 2010 at 08:10 PM (#3545810)
Oh wait, let me guess: you're still holding the homosexuality comments against him like a good little fascist stormtrooper. Jesus Christ.

Deep in my troublemaking heart I like to think you're driving one of the only other Nats fans - Ian MacKaye - away from the site. ;-)
   16. BFFB Posted: May 29, 2010 at 08:42 PM (#3545818)
I would have thought the biggest impediments to any contract for Fielder is the fact he is, er, rather rotund and his dad fell off the cliff in his early 30's.
   17. Something Other Posted: May 29, 2010 at 10:39 PM (#3545846)
@16, yup, especially the rotund (and post-prime years) part. How likely is it that Milwaukee is aware that a 6/120 contract for Fielder is a bad idea and simply won't want him at that price? After all he's a below average fielder way over on the defensive spectrum who has had all of ONE season where he was worth much more than 20 mil.

How big a hit would the Brewers take if they stuck to, say, 6/109 and Fielder vamoosed?
   18. The District Attorney Posted: May 29, 2010 at 11:02 PM (#3545855)
His argument regarding Milwaukee's resources though is just strange. That's an argument for Fielder walking away from Milwaukee when he's an FA -- both to get more money for himself and to surround himself with better players (due to greater team resources). Sure, Milwaukee may not be able to afford $25 M to Fielder (and have enough left over for others) but that doesn't mean that the Howard contract doesn't impact on what Fielder will find acceptable.
Yeah, one would think it would be pretty apparent that there is a logical gap between "Milwaukee can't afford to pay Fielder like Howard" and "Fielder will end up not getting paid like Howard." Maybe not an insurmountable logical gap, but he certainly doesn't surmount it here...
   19. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: May 29, 2010 at 11:21 PM (#3545862)
I always found Jones to be pretty damn insightful and interesting when talking about the nuances of playing ball or life as a big leaguer.

Doug Glanville's book is pretty good, and we all know Dick Hayhurst is awesome.
   20. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: May 29, 2010 at 11:43 PM (#3545874)
Are you sure? Glanville and Hayhurst might turn out to be homophobes and then everything they say about everything would become stupid and worthless.
   21. tshipman Posted: May 29, 2010 at 11:59 PM (#3545878)
Are you sure? Glanville and Hayhurst might turn out to be homophobes and then everything they say about everything would become stupid and worthless.


While I am sure homophobia is a small part of Todd Jones's character, it's still a fairly repugnant part of his character. People are capable of being thoughtful, insightful, kind, good family men, and homophobes. Why the rush to excuse it?

I have several gay friends. If someone says something homophobic in my presence, I try to speak up, because I imagine what it would be like if my friend were there and had to hear it. I don't think everything that someone ever says or does has to be viewed through that lens, just like I think the wife-beating comments about Brett Myers pile on a bit. But the fact of the matter is that Todd Jones was a bit of a homophobe in the past. I don't know if he still is or not, but excusing it and criticizing other people for commenting on it seems odd.

Homophobia is wrong the same way racism is. When people bring up Cap Anson, one of the things they talk about is racism. Is that fair? Probably not, but it's part of society. When Todd Jones writes a column about how homophobia is wrong, and how he was wrong to talk about it in that way, a lot of people will probably view him differently.
   22. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: May 30, 2010 at 12:12 AM (#3545882)
While I am sure homophobia is a small part of Todd Jones's character, it's still a fairly repugnant part of his character. People are capable of being thoughtful, insightful, kind, good family men, and homophobes. Why the rush to excuse it?


I'm in no rush to excuse it, and I don't see anyone who really has, even Eso. But I'm in no rush to make his homophobia the entirety of Todd Jones character, which has happened too often at this site. Particularly since it's a trait he likely shares with far too many big leaguers.

In my opinion, Todd Jones has written some pretty interesting things about his life as a baseball player (just as Dirk and Doug have). That he has also said things about homosexuals that I strongly disagree with doesn't invalidate every other opinion he has.
   23. tshipman Posted: May 30, 2010 at 12:21 AM (#3545885)
In my opinion, Todd Jones has written some pretty interesting things about his life as a baseball player (just as Dirk and Doug have). That he has also said things about homosexuals that I strongly disagree with doesn't invalidate every other opinion he has.


No one brought up the homophobic comments except those pre-emptively defending him. Darren said he was uninteresting and a loser, but didn't mention anything about the homophobic comments. The first mention was by Esoteric and then by Crispix.

I do hold the homophobic comments against Todd Jones. I don't throw out everything he ever has to say because of it, but I hold it against him. When he admits that he was wrong, I'll change that view.
   24. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: May 30, 2010 at 12:26 AM (#3545888)
No one brought up the homophobic comments except those pre-emptively defending him. Darren said he was uninteresting and a loser, but didn't mention anything about the homophobic comments. The first mention was by Esoteric and then by Crispix.


If there was some other reason Darren labeled him a loser, it would be the first time around here.

And, like Crispix, I'm not really sure what else Petooter might have been getting at with the Dirk and Doug references. Yes, they are insightful and likable. What does that have to do with my comments about Jones?
   25. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: May 30, 2010 at 12:45 AM (#3545908)
Most of the time his name comes up on BBTF - or he's linked to - someone plays the "homophobe card". Darren did it here @ #3, albeit less obviously than it usually happens - let's be honest.
   26. Squash Posted: May 30, 2010 at 01:13 AM (#3545925)
Most of the time his name comes up on BBTF - or he's linked to - someone plays the "homophobe card". Darren did it here @ #3, albeit less obviously than it usually happens - let's be honest.

Well then let's continue with the honesty - something tells me Esoteric's rush to defend Jones doesn't stem from a love of "the gays".
   27. Jeff R. Posted: May 30, 2010 at 01:15 AM (#3545927)
I'm not understanding your use of the term "leverage" here. How does it "provide leverage"?

A player's sole "leverage" in negotiations is the willingness of some other team to pay him more than his current team is offering, and while the Phillies' contract with Howard is evidence that some other team may be willing to pay Fielder lots of money, it does not itself constitute an offer from that team.


Does he have to speak really slowly for you to understand him?

If...a...player...of...a...certain...skill...is...payed...a...certain...salary...another... player...of...greater...skill...can...be...expected... to...be...paid...a...greater...salary. Jesus ####### christ, is there some kind of internet competition going on to be the most obtuse human being in existence?
   28. Swedish Chef Posted: May 30, 2010 at 01:21 AM (#3545932)
If...a...player...of...a...certain...skill...is...payed...a...certain...salary...another... player...of...greater...skill...can...be...expected... to...be...paid...a...greater...salary. Jesus ####### christ, is there some kind of internet competition going on to be the most obtuse human being in existence?

Good news, you win.
   29. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: May 30, 2010 at 01:23 AM (#3545934)
I'm not really sure what else Petooter might have been getting at with the Dirk and Doug references.

Someone said "insightful" and "life as a big leaguer" and I given that I had just read Glanville's book the day before yesterday, that's what it made me think of. And I shared my thoughts with BBTF.
   30. Rich Rifkin Posted: May 30, 2010 at 01:25 AM (#3545938)
HALLADAY -- PERFECT GAME!
   31. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: May 30, 2010 at 01:25 AM (#3545939)
Todd Jones: Halladay's perfect game won't affect Braden's or Buehrle's
   32. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: May 30, 2010 at 01:31 AM (#3545945)
Where's the Halladay thread? Awesome! Ironically, I just now got back from a trip to Philly. I'm good luck or something...
   33. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: May 30, 2010 at 01:48 AM (#3545958)
In other bizarre feats that will get long BBTF threads, Kendry Morales evidently broke his leg in the celebration after a walk off grand slam.
   34. flournoy Posted: May 30, 2010 at 02:04 AM (#3545964)
I just now got back from a trip to Philly. I'm good luck or something...


More likely, once the burden of your visit was removed, Halladay was able to come through. Notwithstanding that the game was in Miami.

Also, please go back to Philadelphia.
   35. My Grate Friend, Peason Posted: May 30, 2010 at 02:30 AM (#3545972)
Halladay thread is here.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/espn_halladay_hurls_20th_perfect_game_in_mlb_history/
   36. LargeBill Posted: May 30, 2010 at 01:37 PM (#3546133)
Do the people who quickly cry out charges of "homophobia" know what the word phobia means? A phobia is a fear. It is quite possible (likely in fact) that someone who speaks out about some element of homosexuality is not afraid, but just thinks those who go that way are making an odd personal choice. You have to allow for the possibility that someone could be wrong about this subject without assuming they are afraid or phobic.

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