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Friday, January 21, 2022

Tom Goodwin, former Boston Red Sox coach, says MLB bullied coaches into getting COVID-19 vaccine: ‘There was no choice’

Former Red Sox first base coach Tom Goodwin sounded off on Major League Baseball on Friday, telling The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal that the league “bullied” coaches and other non-playing personnel into receiving the COVID-19 vaccine even if they were against it.

Goodwin, who spent four seasons on Boston’s staff before being let go immediately after the 2021 season, missed several games in close contact protocols during the regular season and had to step away from the Red Sox at the beginning of the postseason because unvaccinated staffers were not allowed to access the playing field during the playoffs. He has since been vaccinated and accepted a job with the Braves as a roving minor-league outfield instructor; he did not receive any major-league coaching offers, according to Rosenthal.

Because players are part of a union, Major League Baseball can’t mandate that they get vaccinated. Coaches and other team employees, who are not part of a union, are another story. The league has yet to decide on a vaccination policy for big-league coaches in 2022 but it’s clear teams strongly prefer their staff members to be vaccinated in case MLB mandates shots for them.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 21, 2022 at 01:48 PM | 241 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: vaccines

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   1. John Northey Posted: January 21, 2022 at 01:50 PM (#6061850)
Poor babies. Told to get a vaccine that might save their lives or to go find another job.
   2. Mefisto Posted: January 21, 2022 at 02:49 PM (#6061853)
Or might keep them from infecting players whose loss would hurt the team.
   3. Dr. Pooks Posted: January 21, 2022 at 03:17 PM (#6061858)
Poor babies. Told to get a vaccine that might save their lives or to go find another job.


The tolerant left everyone.

No diversity of thought or belief is allowed.
   4. Jose is Absurdly Correct but not Helpful Posted: January 21, 2022 at 03:26 PM (#6061860)
He needs to understand what "bullying" means. He was given what is known as a "choice." He can work as a Major League Baseball coach but that requires a vaccine. Or he can not work as a Major League Baseball coach and not get vaccinated, that's his call. He is also required by MLB to wear pants. Frankly, putting on my pants every day has been a much greater hardship than getting the vaccine was for me though that probably just highlights my need to lose a few pounds.
   5. Tony S Posted: January 21, 2022 at 03:40 PM (#6061866)
Frankly, putting on my pants every day has been a much greater hardship than getting the vaccine was for me though that probably just highlights my need to lose a few pounds.


But I'm sure those around you heavily appreciate your sacrifices in this regard. :)
   6. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 21, 2022 at 04:01 PM (#6061873)
Where is Smitty when you need him
   7. Nasty Nate Posted: January 21, 2022 at 04:10 PM (#6061875)
Where is Smitty when you need him
So much for the tolerant left!!!
   8. Jose is Absurdly Correct but not Helpful Posted: January 21, 2022 at 04:37 PM (#6061882)
But I'm sure those around you heavily appreciate your sacrifices in this regard. :)


And when you say "around" you mean a-ROUND!
   9. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: January 21, 2022 at 05:42 PM (#6061893)
No diversity of thought or belief is allowed.
Seriously. I mean, when opinions differ on which side of the road to drive, who are we to decide right versus wrong?
   10. smileyy Posted: January 21, 2022 at 05:59 PM (#6061899)
[4] nailed it.

If this is the "intolerant left", what happened to the party of personal responsibility on the right? Choices have consequences, right?
   11. The Duke Posted: January 21, 2022 at 07:04 PM (#6061903)
It’s all so meaningless. You’d have to live in a cave to not understand the following:

1. Unvaccinated people are no more or less responsible for transmitting covid than vaccinated people
2. Cloth masks don’t work - even the cdc is saying this now
3. Everyone is going to get covid or has had covid regardless of vaccination status

If all these things are true, then It makes no sense to be mandating vaccinations EXCEPT in situations where people work with high risk patients (ie nursing home care). - which, btw, is what the Supreme Court just said last week.

Making some poor coaching Schmuck get a vaccine when the only person he is harming is himself if he doesn’t get one, is lunacy. Yet most of Western Europe and our idiot leaders still subscribe to this when all the evidence suggests it’s an irrelevant policy.

Omicron is the best thing that could have happened as it has now exposed all the previous guidance as wrong.

I have had three shots and I wear an N-95 to the store and I don’t frequent indoor restaurants - so I believe covid is dangerous but everyone should be free to decide for themselves.

   12. JJ1986 Posted: January 21, 2022 at 08:06 PM (#6061910)
Unvaccinated people are no more or less responsible for transmitting covid than vaccinated people
You must know this isn't true.
   13. Bret Sabermatrician Posted: January 21, 2022 at 08:14 PM (#6061911)
This article is about things mandated last year, when the virus spread from the vaccinated less, N-95s weren't available with ease, and the virus was much more dangerous to everyone.

Omicron was literay the point of doing everything we've done the past 2 years, we were just hoping there weren't so many idiots who decided they'd rather die than listen to science.

Also, vaccinated people shed less of the virus, so it's not just his health he's risking by being obstinate.

I mean, HIV is perfectly treatable, so why do we mandate hospitals use new needles for every shot/iv? That's a ton of wasted time, money and a huge environmental impact for something that should be my choice.

   14. Adam Starblind Posted: January 21, 2022 at 08:24 PM (#6061912)
. 1. Unvaccinated people are no more or less responsible for transmitting covid than vaccinated people
2. Cloth masks don’t work - even the cdc is saying this now
3. Everyone is going to get covid or has had covid regardless of vaccination status

If all these things are true,


*BUZZER!!!!*
   15. Adam Starblind Posted: January 21, 2022 at 08:26 PM (#6061913)
. The tolerant left everyone.

No diversity of thought or belief is allowed.


Fortunately you can vote against leftist beliefs. The right not so much.
   16. Lassus Posted: January 21, 2022 at 09:07 PM (#6061917)
The tolerant left everyone.
No diversity of thought or belief is allowed


but everyone should be free to decide for themselves.


Can I be around when you guys give these speeches to your adolescent kids, grandkids, grandnieces & nephews in three or four years when they're shivering and vomiting with measles?
   17. Mefisto Posted: January 21, 2022 at 09:35 PM (#6061920)
You must know this isn't true.


It's a lie.
   18. The Duke Posted: January 21, 2022 at 09:47 PM (#6061923)
Aside from the fact that it’s well-documented that vaccinated people transmit the virus, surely all of you must have personal experience in the last four weeks of loads of your vaccinated friends getting covid. My entire community is heavily vaccinated and everyone is passing covid around. Is that not your personal experience.?

It’s certainly true that unvaccinated people are filling up the hospitals but vaccinated people are spreading omnicron to one another at incredible rates. the scientists looking at this have said as much - would you say this is a lie? Here’s the cdc from three weeks ago who woikd be the last people to agree that vaccinated people can spread the disease

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has confirmed that anyone — regardless of vaccination status — can likely spread the omicron variant of the coronavirus to other people.

“The Omicron variant likely will spread more easily than the original SARS-CoV-2 virus and how easily Omicron spreads compared to Delta remains unknown,” according to the CDC. “CDC expects that anyone with Omicron infection can spread the virus to others, even if they are vaccinated or don’t have symptoms.”

It’s black and white if you’re willing to actually believe the science.
   19. Lassus Posted: January 21, 2022 at 09:51 PM (#6061924)
Your reliance on anecdotes is not compelling.

Again, enjoy the freedom of measles your progeny will experience as a result of your dishonest strategies.
   20. The Duke Posted: January 21, 2022 at 09:54 PM (#6061925)
From the Lancet on Jan 1

Vaccine effectiveness studies have conclusively demonstrated the benefit of COVID-19 vaccines in reducing individual symptomatic and severe disease, resulting in reduced hospitalisations and intensive care unit admissions.1 However, the impact of vaccination on transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 needs to be elucidated. A prospective cohort study in the UK by Anika Singanayagam and colleagues2 regarding community transmission of SARS-CoV-2 among unvaccinated and vaccinated individuals provides important information that needs to be considered in reassessing vaccination policies. This study showed that the impact of vaccination on community transmission of circulating variants of SARS-CoV-2 appeared to be not significantly different from the impact among unvaccinated people.2,

The scientific rationale for mandatory vaccination in the USA relies on the premise that vaccination prevents transmission to others, resulting in a “pandemic of the unvaccinated”.4 Yet, the demonstration of COVID-19 breakthrough infections among fully vaccinated health-care workers (HCW) in Israel, who in turn may transmit this infection to their patients,5 requires a reassessment of compulsory vaccination policies leading to the job dismissal of unvaccinated HCW in the USA. Indeed, there is growing evidence that peak viral titres in the upper airways of the lungs and culturable virus are similar in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals
   21. The Duke Posted: January 21, 2022 at 10:01 PM (#6061926)
Even before omnicron this is what the CDC was suggesting about delta. This is from July 2021

Most new infections in the U.S. continue to be among unvaccinated people. But "breakthrough" infections, which generally cause milder illness, can occur in vaccinated people. When earlier strains of the virus predominated, infected vaccinated people were found to have low levels of virus and were deemed unlikely to spread the virus much, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said.

But with the delta variant, the level of virus in infected vaccinated people is "indistinguishable" from the level of virus in the noses and throats of unvaccinated people, Walensky said.

The data emerged over the last couple of days from 100 samples. It is unpublished, and the CDC has not released it. But "it is concerning enough that we feel like we have to act," Walensky said.
   22. Rough Carrigan Posted: January 21, 2022 at 10:42 PM (#6061934)
Duke is correct. The vaccine has *negative* value at this point.
After a few months, the effectiveness of both the Pfizer and Moderna injections is actually negative according to a Danish study
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v2

and a German study and
this German paper:
https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/new-study-from-germany-confirms-higher
But if you love the utterly corrupt U.S. establishment, just ignore such data. Next I'll exhort fish to swim.
   23. Adam Starblind Posted: January 21, 2022 at 11:02 PM (#6061939)
More folks to put on ignore.
   24. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: January 21, 2022 at 11:13 PM (#6061941)
I work at a college and so rely heavily on Bio professors, and members of the Nursing faculty, not only to give me information but also to point me to sources of info. Most people here know all this, but I will say it anyway. There are still things to be learned about omicron, but it is very clear that getting vaxxed makes it much, much, much less likely that you will need to be hospitalized if you catch COVID, so even with omicron's high transmissibility it is still hugely important to get vaxxed and boosted if for no other reason than to help with overworked health care professionals and to keep people out of ICUs.

As to masks, cloth masks are not that effective against omicron; that is true. Keys on masking are tight fit and doubling up if you can't get an N95.

stevekirsch

Kirsch is a Silicon Valley anti-vaxx weirdo. Worth north of 200M and wastes time and money spreading bad information. Anybody listening to him on this issue is either trying to play others or is getting played. There is no Door #3.

   25. SoSH U at work Posted: January 21, 2022 at 11:26 PM (#6061944)
Kirsch is a Silicon Valley anti-vaxx weirdo. Worth north of 200M and wastes time and money spreading bad information. Anybody listening to him on this issue is either trying to play others or is getting played. There is no Door #3.


Rough follows the full roster of COVID crackpots. It's his thing.
   26. baxter Posted: January 21, 2022 at 11:51 PM (#6061945)
21, 22 Consider looking at the Herman Cain awards site on Reddit. The virus doesn't care about anyone's political beliefs.

I hope each of you lives a long, healthy life. But, if you are unfortunate enough to get either COVID, or sakes forbid pass, please forgive me for declining to contribute to your Go Fund Me page.

You are each in my thoughts and prayers, however.
   27. Adam Starblind Posted: January 21, 2022 at 11:58 PM (#6061946)
Screw that. They’re homicidal. It would be like a terrorist blowing himself up in his own bomb factory.
   28. base ball chick Posted: January 22, 2022 at 12:13 AM (#6061947)
i clicked on rough carrigan's link to medvrx

"Our study provides evidence of protection against infection with the Omicron variant after completion of a primary vaccination series with the BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273 vaccines; in particular, we found a VE against the Omicron variant of 55.2% (95% confidence interval (CI): 23.5 to 73.7%) and 36.7% (95% CI: 69.9 to 76.4%) for the BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273 vaccines, respectively, in the first month after primary vaccination. However, the VE is significantly lower than that against Delta infection and declines rapidly over just a few months. The VE is re-established upon revaccination with the BNT162b2 vaccine (54.6%, 95% CI: 30.4 to 70.4%)."


- getting vaxxed does not make the infection WORSE

people who were vaxxed got infected if they went out of their house and didn't wear a tight mask. the people i know who have not gotten covid like me and Husband don't go anywhere without wearing a mask - not cloth - that fits tightly over mouth and nose. People are careless, for the most part, with mask wearing.

and of the people i know who got omicron after being vaxxed, NONE of them ended up in hosp or ER or needed oxygen - and ALL those people were not careful about staying properly masked.

getting covid is not guaranteed like no pregnant XY people. and even if it WAS, fact is that significant percent of people in ER and hosp are those people who refused to get vaxxed. and they have higher viral loads.

i can't believe this is still up for argument

- theres all kinds of people who think it is a good thing if their kidz get measles or any of the other diseases. of course they are more than happy, just like the anti-covid vaccine people, got no trouble giving the disease to and injuring other people with it



   29. reech Posted: January 22, 2022 at 12:41 AM (#6061949)

and of the people i know who got omicron after being vaxxed, NONE of them ended up in hosp or ER or needed oxygen - and ALL those people were not careful about staying properly masked.


Exactly.

If I get COVID, I prefer to shrug it off and not get my butt kicked by it. Vaccines are a good thing.
   30. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 22, 2022 at 12:45 AM (#6061950)
Vaccine effectiveness has shown minimal reduction in effectiveness in New York State during the Omicron wave. *Everyone* is significantly more likely to contract Omicron than prior variants, but the vaccinated are still much less likely to contract it, and even more unlikely to become hospitalized from it, than the unvaccinated.

Link

The same is true in CA.

In the anecdotal category, I did catch Omicron, but a number of the people I interacted with around the time I caught it (before I tested positive and quarantined), including my wife, did not.
   31. baxter Posted: January 22, 2022 at 02:03 AM (#6061954)
#3 left, right means what?
Do you think a private (non-governmental) employer should be allowed to require that a worker get a vaccine?

If not, where does the right of the employee not to get vaccinated originate from? Is it from some law or regulation (state or federal, maybe in Florida or Texas, if someone is familiar with their employment laws)? Do you want the government to be able to dictate private employers how those employers should run their businesses? Or maybe you advocate rights for workers versus private employers (which you may then advocate for). Left, right, what difference does it make?

Indeed, as 4 points out, Mr. G's decision is a choice, one that carries a cost. As an adult who bears the responsibility for his decisions, Mr. G is free to weigh the pros and cons to decide for himself how to act. Indeed, 3, do you contend that Mr. G has some sort of governmentally protected right (apart from his contract) to work for the Red Sox. Sympathies, or lack thereof (does/did Mr. G earn 6 figures? Well he did earn 15 million as a ballplayer, so hopefully he's not sleeping in cardboard box under a freeway overpass), for Mr. G aside, I'd like to hear what you think about that.
tanx in advance.
My feeling for Mr. G is that he didn't feel more strongly about getting on base when he was with the Dodgers.
   32. baxter Posted: January 22, 2022 at 02:03 AM (#6061955)
#3 left, right means what?
Do you think a private (non-governmental) employer should be allowed to require that a worker get a vaccine?

If not, where does the right of the employee not to get vaccinated originate from? Is it from some law or regulation (state or federal, maybe in Florida or Texas, if someone is familiar with their employment laws)? Do you want the government to be able to dictate private employers how those employers should run their businesses? Or maybe you advocate rights for workers versus private employers (which you may then advocate for). Left, right, what difference does it make?

Indeed, as 4 points out, Mr. G's decision is a choice, one that carries a cost. As an adult who bears the responsibility for his decisions, Mr. G is free to weigh the pros and cons to decide for himself how to act. Indeed, 3, do you contend that Mr. G has some sort of governmentally protected right (apart from his contract) to work for the Red Sox. Sympathies, or lack thereof (does/did Mr. G earn 6 figures? Well he did earn 15 million as a ballplayer, so hopefully he's not sleeping in cardboard box under a freeway overpass), for Mr. G aside, I'd like to hear what you think about that.
tanx in advance.
My feeling for Mr. G is that he didn't feel more strongly about getting on base when he was with the Dodgers.
   33. PeteF3 Posted: January 22, 2022 at 02:38 AM (#6061956)
   34. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 22, 2022 at 05:52 AM (#6061957)
Duke is correct. The vaccine has *negative* value at this point.


Remarkably, not only are both you and Duke incorrect, but you are also disagreeing with each other while thinking that he is agreeing with you. This does not bode well for your reading comprehension abilities. Your dishonesty at only quoting a small number of sketchy studies and ignoring a much larger number of more reliable studies from all over the world - including left-governed and right-governed nations - is only to be expected at this point.
   35. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 22, 2022 at 08:30 AM (#6061966)
I work at a college and so rely heavily on Bio professors, and members of the Nursing faculty, not only to give me information but also to point me to sources of info. Most people here know all this, but I will say it anyway. There are still things to be learned about omicron, but it is very clear that getting vaxxed makes it much, much, much less likely that you will need to be hospitalized if you catch COVID, so even with omicron's high transmissibility it is still hugely important to get vaxxed and boosted if for no other reason than to help with overworked health care professionals and to keep people out of ICUs.

The strongest moral case for vaccine mandates is that unvaccinated Covid patients are UNNECESSARILY taking up hospital space that's needed for non-Covid patients. The idea that "they're only hurting themselves" by refusing vaccination is sophistry of the highest order.

Mandates save lives. End of story.
   36. The Duke Posted: January 22, 2022 at 08:49 AM (#6061969)
First of all, I never said the vaccine has negative value. That’s not my point. Every adult should have at least two shots. My point is that mandates are worthless and dividing people into desirables and undesirables can’t possibly be good policy.

Second, i didn’t cite a couple of sketchy studies. Two of the three are CDC guidance /quotes. If you want to play Seargeant Schultz with the information - that’s not on me.

The point in 35 is a good one. That’s the only good argument for a mandate but that’s not good enough for me. The reality is that the CDC has said recently that most of the patients who end up in the hospital had up to four co-morbidities. Covid either pushed them over an edge they were approaching or was incidental to their underlying issue. The anecdote of the 25 year old marathoner dying of covid is just that - a rare curiosity.

75% of the people who have died are over 65. Almost all of the people who have died are over 50. That is, this is not a mortality issue for working age people (statistically).

   37. The Duke Posted: January 22, 2022 at 08:57 AM (#6061971)
30. Who’s more likely to catch it is very hard to determine with omnicron. If you get it, which many people have, you may not even go get tested in a place where stats are counted. Most of my neighbors used at home tests and then quarantined for a few days — they were all vaxxed except one. People may not even know they have it - so they don’t get tested.

The first variant and delta drove people to their local CVS to get tested because they got really sick. Omnicron, not so much. At home tests are now impossible to find so many are just assuming they have it if they get sick.

This is more personal observation but I’ve read enough stories that this seems to be common everywhere.
   38. Lassus Posted: January 22, 2022 at 09:04 AM (#6061976)


More data on the efficacy of vaccines, from the Italian Higher Institute of Health:

Non-vaccinated people, if infected, run a 21 times greater risk of ending up in intensive care than those who have had two vaccine doses. The difference is 39 times greater than those who have received a booster: 31.3 cases in 100,000 as opposed to 0.8 cases.


"This study covers the period 3 Dec. 2021 through 2 Jan. 2022, so it's recent and from a time when most people had equal and ready access to vaccines."
(BDC, expat BBTF Discord)

No, you selfish dimwits should not have the freedom to spread pain and destruction and death to others.
   39. Adam Starblind Posted: January 22, 2022 at 09:44 AM (#6061979)
. “The Omicron variant likely will spread more easily than the original SARS-CoV-2 virus and how easily Omicron spreads compared to Delta remains unknown,” according to the CDC. “CDC expects that anyone with Omicron infection can spread the virus to others, even if they are vaccinated or don’t have symptoms.”


Do you have anything on Rho or Sigma? Because that would be important info too.
   40. Adam Starblind Posted: January 22, 2022 at 09:49 AM (#6061981)
. “The Omicron variant likely will spread more easily than the original SARS-CoV-2 virus and how easily Omicron spreads compared to Delta remains unknown,” according to the CDC. “CDC expects that anyone with Omicron infection can spread the virus to others, even if they are vaccinated or don’t have symptoms.”



Oh, and Goodwin is talking about things that happened during Alpha and Delta. Factoids about Omicron are tangential. And as I alluded to above, we know nothing about how the vaccine will interact with future variants. Here’s a fact: Vaccination has *already* prevented the spread of the more virulent strains, and may do so again in the future. Omicron gives idiots a talking point or two, but anyone who flatly states that “vaccination doesn’t stop you from transmitting COVID” is arguing from ignorance or bad faith.
   41. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 22, 2022 at 10:38 AM (#6061985)
Second, i didn’t cite a couple of sketchy studies.


I was responding to Rough Carrigan's regurgitated nonsense, not yours. Your mistake was not thinking that citing two sketchy studies outweighs all other evidence; your mistake was speaking as if 'Covid-vaccinated people can still transmit the virus to others' was functionally the same as 'Covid-vaccinated people are equally likely to sustain the transmission of the virus as the unvaccinated'. See your posts 11, 18, and 21.

Your post 20 at least begins to grapple with this, but is both vague and contradicts other data out there. See post 33, for example. Or this study, where there is little difference between the 2-dose vaccinated and the unvaccinated in being infected by Omicron, but a VAST difference between the 3-dose vaccinated and the other categories. You're working on bad data.
   42. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 22, 2022 at 11:04 AM (#6061987)
The strongest moral case for vaccine mandates is that unvaccinated Covid patients are UNNECESSARILY taking up hospital space that's needed for non-Covid patients. The idea that "they're only hurting themselves" by refusing vaccination is sophistry of the highest order.

The point in 35 is a good one. That’s the only good argument for a mandate but that’s not good enough for me. The reality is that the CDC has said recently that most of the patients who end up in the hospital had up to four co-morbidities. Covid either pushed them over an edge they were approaching or was incidental to their underlying issue. The anecdote of the 25 year old marathoner dying of covid is just that - a rare curiosity.


36, I wasn't talking about dying 25 year old marathoners, and my point wasn't even about geezers like me** who may die of Covid. It was about non-Covid patients, old and young, who've had to wait for non-Covid related surgery because of the hospital space shortage that's been caused by unvaccinated Covid patients.

It's also been shown that mandates---when enforced---have increased vaccination rates. If not for the unvaxxed holdouts who require hospitalization, those hospital space shortages wouldn't exist.

** I'm 77 and fully vaxxed, and haven't been sick in years.
   43. base ball chick Posted: January 22, 2022 at 11:08 AM (#6061988)
36. The Duke Posted: January 22, 2022 at 08:49 AM (#6061969)
First of all, I never said the vaccine has negative value. That’s not my point. Every adult should have at least two shots. My point is that mandates are worthless and dividing people into desirables and undesirables can’t possibly be good policy.


- well
what do YOU think we should do with the people who refuse to get vaccinated, spread lethal disease, and clog up hospitals/clinics and cost us taxpayers zillions with their selfishness and horsespit?

this is a contagious disease, not someone refusing to deal with his/her blood pressure/diabets where this can't harm someone else


The point in 35 is a good one. That’s the only good argument for a mandate but that’s not good enough for me. The reality is that the CDC has said recently that most of the patients who end up in the hospital had up to four co-morbidities. Covid either pushed them over an edge they were approaching or was incidental to their underlying issue. The anecdote of the 25 year old marathoner dying of covid is just that - a rare curiosity.

75% of the people who have died are over 65. Almost all of the people who have died are over 50. That is, this is not a mortality issue for working age people (statistically).


- and good riddance to old folks? and the imperfect? i understand YOU have not done this, but zilions of other people apparently feel just fine about giving a lethal disease to tons of others and - shrug - to he!! with them

your statistics do not count long covid or the numbers of people who have brain damage from this disease who "survived" and there are plenty of them who do not fit in the category of the Old and Useless or the Imperfecr

the dividing line of dead/not dead is not the line that needs looking at
   44. Mr. Hotfoot Jackson (gef, talking mongoose) Posted: January 22, 2022 at 12:08 PM (#6061995)
- well
what do YOU think we should do with the people who refuse to get vaccinated, spread lethal disease, and clog up hospitals/clinics and cost us taxpayers zillions with their selfishness and horsespit?


Anyone know of any remote islands to maroon these suicidal/homicidal sacks of #### on? And preferably their enablers/apologists as well?
   45. villageidiom Posted: January 22, 2022 at 12:14 PM (#6061996)
No diversity of thought or belief is allowed.
Something something Liz Cheney something.
   46. The Duke Posted: January 22, 2022 at 12:30 PM (#6062000)
I think the “can’t get medical care because the hospital is clogged up with patients” is overdone I don’t deny it exists but it’s been in very narrow windows and it varies around the country. For instance, they just stopped elected surgeries here at my hospital for a week. But they expect that won’t last more than 7-14 days. There’s no way to really quantify the real impact but it’s a nice argument to hang your hat On when all the other arguments get debunked. Omnicron will be largely gone in a few weeks and we’ll be back to normal.

And we had a period like this last summer too. I had a hernia surgery delayed for one week last summer due to hospital clogging. Doctor moved me to another surgery center and voila - I was fine. The arguement presupposes that the system will simply not act to solve the bottleneck - the system is remarkably agile.

As to the great cost - I believe a holistic view of economics would suggest our approach to covid has been disastrous for our children and long term economic success.

So for two discrete periods of time over two years - we should force millions of people to do something medically they don’t want to do? The issue is simply education and persuasion but unless you want to live in a society like China, you won’t get compliance.

And where do draw the line. One shot, Two shots, three shots, four shots ? What’s the definition of being a moral person ? Only 39% have received a third shot. Are the 61% now sub-human for refusing a booster. Refuse to vax and mask your kids - sub human?

As to long covid, I simply haven’t seen much on this since the variant switched to delta and omnicron, so I don’t have an opinion. I haven’t sought out literature on it.

I’m not suggesting good riddance to old folks. I’m saying that working age people don’t have to worry about dying (statistically), so there’s no need to mandate a vaccine to “protect the workforce”. If you are around an older person who is at risk - you should be vigilant and so should they.

And finally, the threat of a mandate did get some people off the fence so that’s a good thing - they simply shouldn’t follow-through on the mandate





   47. SoSH U at work Posted: January 22, 2022 at 12:46 PM (#6062003)
As to the great cost - I believe a holistic view of economics would suggest our approach to covid has been disastrous for our children and long term economic success.


I'm sure you do.
   48. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 22, 2022 at 01:10 PM (#6062005)
As to the great cost - I believe a holistic view of economics would suggest our approach to covid has been disastrous for our children and long term economic success.

So for two discrete periods of time over two years - we should force millions of people to do something medically they don’t want to do? The issue is simply education and persuasion but unless you want to live in a society like China, you won’t get compliance.


I draw the line at contagious and often deadly viruses, of which Covid is prime example.

Were we like China when we required vaccinations for many other transmissible diseases? When our schools required the Salk vaccine BITD, were we being treated as the proverbial Chinese ants?

What makes Covid different than polio, other than the fact that most Covid cases are relatively mild, and the fact that far, far more people have died or become permanently disabled** because of it?

** "Only" 15,000 Americans were paralyzed by polio in the 1950's, before the introduction of the Salk vaccine , a significant drop from the late 1940's. Was the campaign of mass vaccination then an overreaction to an insignificant threat?
   49. base ball chick Posted: January 22, 2022 at 01:53 PM (#6062007)
46. The Duke Posted: January 22, 2022 at 12:30 PM (#6062000)

I think the “can’t get medical care because the hospital is clogged up with patients” is overdone I don’t deny it exists but it’s been in very narrow windows and it varies around the country. For instance, they just stopped elected surgeries here at my hospital for a week.


- nobody means that sports hernias can't wait a week. or a month. or 2 months. or a year

we're talking about no ambulances when you have an actual emergency. like you fell and hit your head and you are bleeding and unconscious. like you can NOT get your blood pressure to come down and you can't get seen in a doctors office for 2 weeks - IF you even have one. like you got this bump on your leg and it got infected and now it is red hot and hurts and you are having fever. the wait time at the ER to even GET IN is at least 8-12 hrs because the ER s filled with the Bad People who won't get vaxxed because hey, eff other people.


As to the great cost - I believe a holistic view of economics would suggest our approach to covid has been disastrous for our children and long term economic success.


- so you thin it would have been best to ignore the virus period and it kills 1% of our population and maims i don't even kno how many others?

So for two discrete periods of time over two years - we should force millions of people to do something medically they don’t want to do? The issue is simply education and persuasion but unless you want to live in a society like China, you won’t get compliance.


- some people obviously believe it is their right to kill other people without worrying about those stupid legal problems that you get from every other kind of killing people. it is obvious that education has not and will not work if some people won't believe anything that Those People tell them

And where do draw the line. One shot, Two shots, three shots, four shots ? What’s the definition of being a moral person ? Only 39% have received a third shot. Are the 61% now sub-human for refusing a booster. Refuse to vax and mask your kids - sub human?


- refusing to vax/mask at all EVER? you or yr kidz in the name of freedom to kill? shrugging off killing other humans who are suppose to be your partner/neighbors/friends/co-workers/kids? i guess i think that killing other people, and this is NOT an accident, is evil. no other word i can think of fits


48. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 22, 2022 at 01:10 PM (#6062005)

What makes Covid different than polio, other than the fact that most Covid cases are relatively mild, and the fact that far, far more people have died or become permanently disabled** because of it?


- in mah not so umble opinyin, best i understand, most of the polio patients who were disabled were CHILDREN. and if i understand rightly, and i believe that only chidren and not adults were vaxxed. my mama told me that parents were terrified their own kidz would get polio and there was a rush to get the shots from everyone because the virus, unlike society, didn't discriminate. people cared about saving their OWN kidz - it wasn't to protect others

- the "not at risk" population who won't get vaxxed are not concerned about they OWN kidz - and who knows what kind of brain damage this virus actually does in kidz and far as they concerned, they couldn't care less how many other adults they kill
   50. Smitty* Posted: January 22, 2022 at 02:51 PM (#6062008)
My sincerest apologies to all for not having checked this thread earlier. Jose, glad to know that you too recognize the evilness of pants.

I doubt anyone cares, but here’s my piece on the topic at hand.

If you’re not getting vaxxed (absent a legit medical reason to not get it) you are making a foolish choice. If your job requires you to be around other humans, that choice increases the risk to your coworkers, therefore any business is well within their rights to mandate vaxing. It amazes me how many people don’t seem to recognize that we do not, and never have had, absolute personal freedom. When a choice unnecessarily endangers others, that choice is removed for you. That’s why you can’t drive under the influence or smoke in places of business: your choice is endangering those around you. And yes, getting vaxxed isn’t an ironclad guarantee that you won’t get and/or spread COVID, but since when is 100% effectiveness the standard for taking action? Perfectly sober drivers get in wrecks too, but drunk driving is still illegal.

And if that’s too left for your tastes, a Covid outbreak among a company’s workforce hurts the company’s bottom line. And there’s nothing more right wing in the US than protecting corporations rights to squeeze out every penny of profit possible. So by all logic the right should be in favor of workplace mandates as much as the left. Oh wait, I did forget one thing that is more right wing in the US: be against anything the left wing is for.

But by far my least favorite option is the one my employer took. They made a big show of making vaxing a condition of employment, while allowing medical (which is appropriate) and religious exemptions. The religious exemption was given to anyone who asked for it (and was willing to put up with the red tape of filling out the exemption request). That rendered the entire mandate pointless and made it a waste of time. Dont bother with the mandate if you’re not going to actually enforce it.



   51. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: January 22, 2022 at 03:12 PM (#6062009)
I've been firmly on the side of get vaccinated, wear a mask, err on the side of a zoom meeting instead of in-person if at all possible, etc, etc.

However, I can understand how a lot of people start rolling their eyes about some of the guidance being provided over the past several months. This is because we were all told that once you got the two-shot (or one-shot, for J&J) vaccine, that we'd be good to go, and things would get back to normal...and that ended up not being true. I firmly believe all the politicians and medical experts believed it when they said it early in 2021...but the subsequent variants have proven to be more problematic than most thought.

Look, can we all agree on this:

The reason you should get vaccinated is that there is very strong evidence showing that you are virtually certain to get a lot less sick if you get a COVID-19 variant than if you do not get vaccinated?

This does not mean that, if you get vaccinated, you 100% will not feel like #### if and when you catch it?

No...but you are virtually certain to get less sick than if you didn't, and you are virtually certain not to end up in the hospital for it. This helps our health care system retain capacity for all kinds of emergencies and medical needs, COVID and non-COVID related, that are needed.

The original goal was to eradicate COVID, and let's be clear: That is not going to happen. It is becoming endemic, and we now have to learn to live with COVID-19 and its variants being part of our lives. But this is true of seasonal flu, colds, etc.

Maybe part of the messaging problem has been that, too often, getting a vaccine is presented as the "right thing to do for others' well-being". Maybe we should instead be saying, "Get vaccinated for yourself - getting really sick sucks, and you don't have to get really sick!"

Last thing: It is OK to say that COVID and its variants have now evolved into something that poses a serious threat to those with comorbidities, and doesn't pose the same kind of threat to those without those morbidities.

My Dad is 76, and got COVID in mid-December. We were very worried...and he ended up being asymptomatic. Why? Well, probably the fact he is doesn't smoke, doesn't really drink, exercises at least 30 minutes a day, is at a good body weight, and has strong genetics - combined with getting vaccinated - put him in a good place to deal with the virus. If my Dad was not vaccinated, I suspect he would have felt symptoms from the virus, but would not have been hospitalized.

My Mom also got COVID at the same time (this is why my Dad got tested, despite no symptoms), and ended up at the hospital for over a week, and is having a much tougher recovery even now. Why? Well, although she is seven years younger than my Dad, she has diabetes, high blood pressure, is overweight, and does not exercise. She is also vaccinated - and I believe if she had not been vaccinated, she probably would died.

The reason to get the vaccine, if nothing else, is because it shifts your symptoms if and when you get COVID over a couple of steps towards less severe.

No matter what the science suggests, if we all try to argue that you should get vaccinated because then you probably won't get it, or you won't transmit it, or you definitely won't feel any symptoms if you do get the virus...well, that's just not going to resonate. We all know too many people who are vaccinated, and still got at least a little sick, and gave it to others.

Don't get it for other people. Just get it for yourself. But get it.
   52. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 22, 2022 at 03:38 PM (#6062011)
So for two discrete periods of time over two years - we should force millions of people to do something medically they don’t want to do? The issue is simply education


But you're resisting education in this thread, and using your lack of education on at least one factor (long Covid) to just ignore it, as well as declaring that your economic assessment is faith-based. If you're not willing to educate yourself, but are here anyway telling us all what's right and wrong in Covid strategies, what causes you to post the above?
   53. bookbook Posted: January 22, 2022 at 04:10 PM (#6062015)
I think the “can’t get medical care because the hospital is clogged up with patients” is overdone I don’t deny it exists but it’s been in very narrow windows and it varies around the country. For instance, they just stopped elected surgeries here at my hospital for a week. But they expect that won’t last more than 7-14 days. There’s no way to really quantify the real impact but it’s a nice argument to hang your hat On when all the other arguments get debunked.


I’m not sure elective surgery means what you think it means. I saw a thyroid surgeon about a year ago. She said that several of her patients died because she was not able to do “elective” surgeries.

Cancer surgeries, non-crisis heart surgeries, all sorts of life saving procedures were not possible because the hospitals have been over full. Right now, on Twitter, you can see doctors desperately trying to find hospital beds for their patients who need care.

I would have liked to see strict mandates. The fact that SCOTUS ruled against Biden’s moderate, “vaccinate or test weekly” OSHA requirement shows how beholden the current court is to a party that has abandoned science and common sense safety regulations.

It’s very disappointing.
   54. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 22, 2022 at 06:22 PM (#6062025)
bookbook,

Exactly. 100% on all counts. Anyone who thinks "elective surgery" means face lifts and other cosmetic procedures is simply not paying attention to what's being reported every day, even if those reports don't make it onto Fox News.
   55. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 22, 2022 at 09:45 PM (#6062059)
The fact that SCOTUS ruled against Biden’s moderate, “vaccinate or test weekly” OSHA requirement shows how beholden the current court is to a party that has abandoned science and common sense safety regulations.
It was a pretty straightforward administrative law issue. The wisdom of the policy wasn’t the issue, just that Congress didn’t delegate that power to OSHA. It’s been long held that Congress is expected to speak clearly when authorizing an agency to exercise powers of vast economic & political significance. Claims that it hid an elephant in a mouse hole usually fail.
   56. The Duke Posted: January 22, 2022 at 11:58 PM (#6062074)
53. Biden could have tried to get Congress to pass nationwide mandates instead of using an unconstitutional workaround. He didn’t get a law passed because his own party which controls the house, senate and presidency would never have voted for it. People, other than old baseball fans on BBTF, hate mandates. Don’t blame the Supreme Court - their reasoning was sound. Blame Biden for refusing to get a bill passed. You can’t conjure up authority in OSHA that doesn’t exist that would affect tens of millions of people without explicit congressional authorization.






   57. Mr. Hotfoot Jackson (gef, talking mongoose) Posted: January 23, 2022 at 12:06 AM (#6062075)
But by far my least favorite option is the one my employer took. They made a big show of making vaxing a condition of employment, while allowing medical (which is appropriate) and religious exemptions. The religious exemption was given to anyone who asked for it (and was willing to put up with the red tape of filling out the exemption request). That rendered the entire mandate pointless and made it a waste of time. Dont bother with the mandate if you’re not going to actually enforce it.


All well & good, but what if the religious exemption claim involves refusal to wear pants? I mean, Jesus, Mohammed, Abraham, Buddha, Confucius, etc. etc. etc. didn't wear pants, now did they?
   58. The Duke Posted: January 23, 2022 at 12:09 AM (#6062076)
The Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has announced that it will 'pivot' its language when it comes to COVID-19 vaccinations, meaning that all who are eligible will need booster shots to be considered fully 'up to date.'

CDC Director Rochelle Walensky, 52, announced at a White House press conference on Friday that the organization is working on 'pivoting the language' to match those of other vaccines.

I wonder what all of you will now say to the 61% of people who won’t get boosted - you’re stealing my hospital bed, you’re killing my parents!! Are companies now supposed to fire people who aren’t boosted, it’s probably the majority of our working population. That’s a lot of immoral people. That’s a lot of scarlet letters to make and distribute. An enterprising seamstress could make a mint.

   59. John Northey Posted: January 23, 2022 at 12:22 AM (#6062077)
Wow, amazing the degree of stupidity I see on this issue.

From January 2022 - CDC study: 1.2 million fully vaccinated studied - 2,246 caught COVID, 189 serious illness including 36 who died.
Note: All 189 patients with severe outcomes had at least one risk factor like age or an underlying health condition, and 78% of those who died had four or more risk factors.

From November 2021 - Unvaccinated people are about six times more likely to test positive than vaccinated people, nine times more likely to be hospitalized, and 14 times more likely to die from COVID

So if you don't mind having 9 times the risk of going to the hospital and 14 times the risk of dying then hey, so be it. Of course, in the meantime the rest of us are paying via overcrowded hospitals due to those who choose to risk death over a needle so forgive us if we have zero sympathy when you die like Meatloaf did (an anti-vaxx guy who died of it) or any number of other fools did. IMO hospitals if they are overcrowded should tell anti-vaxx people to just go home and count on ultraviolet light, bleach, horse tranquilizer or whatever quack idea is in vogue this week to get better. The morgue will be told to be on watch for a call.
   60. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 23, 2022 at 01:57 AM (#6062080)
I wonder what all of you will now say to the 61% of people who won’t get boosted


Ideally the issue would simply be education, as someone said in this very thread. But that same person also spouted drivel like:

You’d have to live in a cave to not understand the following:

1. Unvaccinated people are no more or less responsible for transmitting covid than vaccinated people


So it looks like education still has a long way to go before the lack of it stops killing people.
   61. Smitty* Posted: January 23, 2022 at 07:35 AM (#6062083)
gef,

I would have a far more valid case for a religious exemption against pants than most (if not all) of the people who got the vax religious exemption. But am I given that option? Noooooooooooo
   62. Adam Starblind Posted: January 23, 2022 at 10:06 AM (#6062090)
. an unconstitutional workaround.


There’s more lawyers on this board than doctors, so I’d stick to junk science if I were you.

The Supreme Court made a policy choice here. The explicit holding was that risk of contracting covid at work is not an occupational hazard. But go ahead and blame Joe Biden.
   63. Ron J Posted: January 23, 2022 at 01:26 PM (#6062107)
#62 Right. It's mostly a procedural ruling and it is worth noting that it allows the mandate for health care workers -- where the risk of contracting covid at work is in fact an occupational hazard.
   64. Adam Starblind Posted: January 23, 2022 at 01:30 PM (#6062108)
As it is in any other closed-space workplace. You may think it’s in sufficiently so, but that’s a policy choice for the accountable branches.
   65. Ron J Posted: January 23, 2022 at 01:47 PM (#6062109)
#64 I mean that's at minimum arguable -- and I happen to agree with the dissent. But it's not what you'd call unusual to choose the narrowest possible reading for what was a request to bypass the typical OSHA process.
   66. Mefisto Posted: January 23, 2022 at 02:06 PM (#6062111)
It wasn't a request to bypass the typical OSHA process. The statutory language expressly permitted emergency rules.
   67. Adam Starblind Posted: January 23, 2022 at 03:11 PM (#6062115)
Textualist philosophy turns out to be quite pliable, but that’s not news. It was always a sham.
   68. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 23, 2022 at 03:41 PM (#6062121)
I would have a far more valid case for a religious exemption against pants than most (if not all) of the people who got the vax religious exemption. But am I given that option? Noooooooooooo
While I doubt that the sincerity of anyone’s religious views should be based on the opinion of their coworkers, perhaps the compromise is that the Administration could make pants optional for the fully vaccinated? Drop Joe a line, and report back.
   69. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: January 23, 2022 at 05:34 PM (#6062134)
The strongest moral case for vaccine mandates is that unvaccinated Covid patients are UNNECESSARILY taking up hospital space that's needed for non-Covid patients. The idea that "they're only hurting themselves" by refusing vaccination is sophistry of the highest order.

Hospital capacity has always been the number I've really focused on, moreso than cases. Although it looks like Texas may have just now finally turned the corner on the Omicron wave (reporting 2nd straight day of declining hospitalizations today for the first time since 12/16), reporting for the greater Dallas-Ft. Worth area hospitals still shows all beds > 90% occupied with 25% of them being COVID hospitalizations.

Closer to my heart, this region with a population of 8 million (19 counties, 16,500 square miles) is reporting exactly 3 "available staffed pediatric ICU beds." It was right around this time just four years ago that my son was in ICU in a coma for 3 weeks with a life-threatening condition (he made a truly miraculous recovery -- a week in, doctors were bracing us for "irreversible widespread brain damage" -- but you'd never know it looking at him today). If he needed a room for that today where he may not have had time to be sent 10 counties away where there was a bed available, I'd find the first anti-vaxxer kid in ICU that I could and strangle them myself to free up a bed so my kid could be admitted.
   70. Astroenteritis Posted: January 23, 2022 at 07:54 PM (#6062158)
We just need to accept that some people are better at sacking the capitol and voter suppression than they are at understanding science.
   71. Ron J Posted: January 23, 2022 at 08:34 PM (#6062163)
#66 I know you're the lawyer and I'm not, but I think you'll agree that a lot of judges consistently opt for the narrowest possible line when it comes to OSHA. The argument that covid isn't an occupational hazard in most cases is consistent.

As I said, I agree with the dissent but this was always seen as a long shot. The fact that the mandate for health care workers survived the ruling is actually pretty big.
   72. Mefisto Posted: January 23, 2022 at 09:06 PM (#6062171)
I don't agree with that, but it would be pretty tedious and off-topic to debate that on a baseball board.
   73. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: January 24, 2022 at 09:33 AM (#6062206)
I have had three shots and I wear an N-95 to the store and I don’t frequent indoor restaurants - so I believe covid is dangerous but everyone should be free to decide for themselves.


Even if they're morons!
   74. base ball chick Posted: January 24, 2022 at 10:01 AM (#6062210)
i need some help with this No Pants belief

most of all yall live Up There and you are gonna freeze your self to death in the cold without no pants. frozen youknowwhats

is the no pants thing mean no draws? no socks/shoes? nekkid? at home? at work? in the streets? your wife/partner/kidz down with all that?

because tell you the truth most guys do NOT look like Mr. Pr0n Star or even, say christian yelich (whose a$$ is FINE[/strong - or substitute pretty much any CF or SS) and pants do youse a yuge favor you see what i'm sayin. youse want like a zillion females looking at youse stuff and smirking, or even worse, sympathy? cmon
   75. Karl from NY Posted: January 24, 2022 at 03:11 PM (#6062273)


Mandates save lives. End of story.

No, not end of story. The function of society is not to mandate the most possible life saving. If it were, we'd ban all cars. We'd ban all alcohol and sugary sodas. We'd ban all physical sports.

If this were really about health, we'd have BMI obesity passports controlling access to McDonald's.

As for pants, you can take them off when you don't need them. You can't take off your vaccine.

And if the hospitals were really overwhelmed, they wouldn't be firing workers for being unvaccinated.

Freedom includes the freedom to make poor decisions. That's what the left never understands.
   76. Lassus Posted: January 24, 2022 at 03:12 PM (#6062274)
test

I have no idea if I did that or someone else. Seems like Karl probably fixed it.

Anyhow, oy. The hospitals aren't really overwhelmed. Sure. Freedom to make poor decisions, like drunk driving. Sure.

I don't know if this whole thing was the bend for you, but I honestly don't recall you being around it prior.
   77. Nasty Nate Posted: January 24, 2022 at 03:18 PM (#6062277)
If this were really about health...
Don't hold back, what is it really about?
And if the hospitals were really overwhelmed, they wouldn't be firing workers for being unvaccinated.
Your conclusion is not logical.
   78. Stop Oppressing Zonk by Investigating His Heroes Posted: January 24, 2022 at 03:33 PM (#6062278)
Freedom includes the freedom to make poor decisions. That's what the left never understands.


Well, unless you're a black dude who wants to kneel during the national anthem, a social media company that wants to apply its own standards - which may well be arbitrary and or capricious - to who gets to post on its services, a female who wants to wear provocative clothing but not necessarily make banter or more with every dude, or a teacher who wants to put Toni Morrison on the reading list....
   79. greenback needs a ride, not ammo Posted: January 24, 2022 at 03:36 PM (#6062279)
Don't hold back, what is it really about?

It's about keeping a bunch of nerds in New York from playing board games. Of course, we know that board game nerds in New York would never get vaccinated because they're special little flowers who developed a deeper understanding of reality by rolling 20-sided dice a lot. And, we, the ruthless minions of orthodoxy, must prevent them from spreading these deeper truths to the wider world.
   80. Lassus Posted: January 24, 2022 at 03:37 PM (#6062280)
Not all D20 rollers!
   81. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: January 24, 2022 at 03:44 PM (#6062281)
I do intro lessons on basic logical fallacies in my classes, and last semester, I used some lightly edited BTF posts as examples. With the new semester about to start, I am back in business thanks to this thread. Poster handles are redacted, and I do not say what site it is from when I use this stuff, BTW.
   82. Ron J Posted: January 24, 2022 at 04:11 PM (#6062284)
And the critical think about mandates is that it's not (just) your life you're saving, it is others.
   83. Adam Starblind Posted: January 24, 2022 at 04:18 PM (#6062285)
Freedom includes the freedom to make poor decisions. That's what the left never understands.


What I don't understand is how the right turned homicidal.
   84. Adam Starblind Posted: January 24, 2022 at 04:21 PM (#6062286)
And the critical think about mandates is that it's not (just) your life you're saving, it is others.


And the burden of getting vaccinated is close to zero. Like wearing a seatbelt so you don't go flying through the windshield and hurt other people and cause everyone else to pay for your idiocy through higher premiums.
   85. Smitty* Posted: January 24, 2022 at 05:41 PM (#6062299)
bbchick- speaking just for me, I wear pants. I just hate them. If I didn’t have to wear them I wouldn’t hate them so much.

Karl - freedom to make bad choices are balanced against how those bad choices impact others. You have the right to get as drunk as you want, even if it gets to a level that threatens your life. I fully support that. But if you drive while drunk that endangers anyone on the road with you to an unacceptable level.That choice presents too much of a threat to people who aren’t you, thus that is not a legal choice that you can make.

If COVID were something environmental and not spread from person to person, I wouldn’t care one iota if anyone who isn’t me or my family (or someone I know and care about) got vaccinated/took precautions/etc. I would fully support someone’s right to make that bad choice. But since it is contagious, that bad choice impacts others. Of course this is a not a binary impact/no impact choice. It is a spectrum, and a lime has to be drawn somewhere and that line has to apply consistently to all. Driving while sober and qualified to operate a vehicle creates a small amount of risk to others, but the burden of removing cars from society is too great to justify doing so to remove that risk. Driving while drunk increases that risk by a level that outweighs the burden of removing the option of driving when you are under the influence. That line is drawn at a 0.08 b/a level (at least where I live, I don’t know if that differs from state to state). Now one could argue that 0.08 is arbitrary, and to some extent it is, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. I can’t just decide that .26 b/a is acceptable and drive. You may think you can drive at a 0.09 b/a and still drive safely, and you may be right, but we can’t leave that choice up to each individual. Most people agree that walking around un-vaxxed and without masking/etc creates too much to those around you. So we’d like to see that stopped (aside from those with medical reasons to not, who need the rest of us to reduce their risk)
   86. Mefisto Posted: January 24, 2022 at 07:22 PM (#6062315)
It's amazing that cons pretend not to understand that driving without brakes would not be an exercise of individual freedom, but of putting others at risk.
   87. The Duke Posted: January 24, 2022 at 10:57 PM (#6062348)
Former head of FDA says we need to end mandates and masks(especially for children). Facts are becoming undeniable, even to our elitist overlords, that our policies designed two years ago don’t work in the current situation and are misguided.

The bureaucratic pandemic is about to end in the blue states



   88. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 25, 2022 at 12:39 AM (#6062356)
Have any of the people talking about comorbidities looked at the list of comorbidities? It’s like 150 pages long. What percentage of Americans do you suppose have four of them?

And by the way, it includes pneumonia — which of course can be caused by COVID itself!
   89. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 25, 2022 at 12:45 AM (#6062357)
Anyway, in principle I support mandates. In a world where people have been fed misinformation about the lethality of the disease and the efficacy of vaccines, mandates no doubt save lives in the short term.

But I worry that they are bad policy in the long term. Anti-COVID vaccine mandate views seem like a gateway drug to anti-vaxism in general as well as a host of other virulent beliefs. I’m not sure that trade-off is worth it over the long term, sadly.
   90. Mefisto Posted: January 25, 2022 at 09:03 AM (#6062375)
I think it's the other way around: anti-vaxxers took over the Covid response because they were already there and because dishonest cons pushed their idiot followers (who have long had a "host of virulent beliefs") in that direction for short-term political gain.
   91. Stop Oppressing Zonk by Investigating His Heroes Posted: January 25, 2022 at 09:40 AM (#6062379)
Former head of FDA says we need to end mandates and masks(especially for children). Facts are becoming undeniable, even to our elitist overlords, that our policies designed two years ago don’t work in the current situation and are misguided.


No, this is not what Scott Gottlieb said.

The only thing worse than getting one's info from the Daily Mail is getting one's info from Daily Mail headlines.

The entirety of Gottlieb quotes from the piece with the headline Ex-FDA chief Scott Gottlieb calls for END of 'divisive' mask and vaccine mandates as COVID cases plummet 12% in seven days

'I think certainly on the east coast where you see cases declining dramatically we need to be willing to lean in and do that very soon I think as conditions improve we have to be willing to relax some of these measures with the same speed that we put them in place,' he told CNBC's The Squawk Box.


'We haven't described clear goalposts for when we're gonna withdraw a lot of these measures and the two most contentious things right now in the U.S. are the masks among children in schools and the vaccine mandates,' he said.


'The trajectory is kinda baked in right now,' Gottlieb told the Squawk Box last week.

'You are seeing cases rapidly decline in the East Coast and Florida. You are also seeing cases come down in California and seeing hospitalizations fall. But the infection is spreading to the Midwest.'


Now, you can listen to the interview yourself here

On masks?

"With respect to the masks on children in schools while they're providing some incremental benefit we know cloth masks aren't providing extreme benefit. For schools that rely on them, that don't have other forms of mitigation, it's all they can do and for schools that rely on them in the midst of an epidemic, you don't want to withdraw them."

On Vax mandates?

I'm not going to transcribe, but he specifically references Connecticut withdrawing its mandate and points that they HIT THEIR GOALS - and more than 90% of state workers ARE vaccinated.

In short, it's a whole lot of hedging and particularly on mandates -- no ####, sherlock... despite the caterwauling of misinfo micreants - people aren't going to be rounded up to be sent to vax camps. So - if the mandates serve the purpose of reaching NEAR total vaccination, guess what... yeah, it's probably not worth the litigation and the trouble to get the remaining 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 20 vaxxed via mandate.


   92. Hot Wheeling American Posted: January 25, 2022 at 09:43 AM (#6062381)
The bureaucratic pandemic is about to end in the blue states

We're All Trying to Find the Guy Policing Our Behavior

This is why I find the tenor of discussion around Covid-19 restrictions genuinely bewildering. There basically aren’t any. The United States is powering through the Omicron wave with its usual enforced individualism. The hard restrictions on our activities are, for the most part, not mandated or enforced by the state, acting at the behest of liberals who refuse to go back to normal because they are addicted to panic and quarantine; the limits are imposed by the virus that isn’t going away. My kid’s school class went remote for a while because people had Covid-19. He’s back in school now even though his principal has Covid-19. As usual in the United States, the people who won the political argument are now complaining the loudest that they’re dissatisfied with the results, and, apparently, it’s all the fault of the losers.
   93. Stop Oppressing Zonk by Investigating His Heroes Posted: January 25, 2022 at 09:53 AM (#6062383)
Gottlieb - who has been pretty reasonable throughout - makes several good points.

- Yes, it's a good idea to react with speed in both directions.

- Yes, we ought to have goals/benchmarks - just as with the vax mandates, sure... if you hit the numbers - and I'm not an epidemiologist, but 90%+ sounds good - mandates have probably served their purpose.

- Yes, one-size fits all usually isn't a good idea.


The only real beef I have with what he said is blaming the lack of the above for the contentiousness and divisiveness. It may play a role, sure - but a far worse role in fomenting divisiveness are the assorted suicide squad of charlatans, liars, and rubes who got their MDs from FB or youtube.
   94. Lassus Posted: January 25, 2022 at 10:12 AM (#6062387)
liberals who refuse to go back to normal because they are addicted to panic and quarantine

Fuck you, fucking quack. I've never warn a mask outside in any activity and have been following maskless guides inside throughout the pandemic. I've flown, I've visited cities and the DeSantis petrie dish, I've been to weddings. And I've dealt with staffing shortages from fucking dead bus drivers. I required my brother be tested before Xmas and barred his positive ass from infecting my 85-year-old diabetic father-in-law. But no, ANY FUCKING CARE AT ALL, any fucking adjustment to the norm, any suggestion of altering your behavior during the worst surge in two years and you get a PANIC OMG YOU MUST DRIVE WITH A MASK ON horseshit from Jason E. and his fucking fathead fucks. Fuck him, fuck Gottlieb, fuck Maher. Fuck off and fucking die.
   95. Hot Wheeling American Posted: January 25, 2022 at 10:22 AM (#6062390)
Just to be sure...I was excerpting a piece that agrees with you, which was not-so-strawmanning the anti-everything party of lunatics.
   96. Lassus Posted: January 25, 2022 at 10:43 AM (#6062393)
Yes. I ###### up the semi-colon completely. Oh well. I'm an idiot. Not news.
   97. Greg Pope Posted: January 25, 2022 at 11:06 AM (#6062394)
Woah, Lassus. HWA's posted quote was a little confusing, I grant. But I think you got the take wrong.
   98. Miserable, Non-Binary Candy is all we deserve CoB Posted: January 25, 2022 at 11:22 AM (#6062398)

What I don't understand is how the right turned homicidal.


The freedom of the fist no longer ends where another's face begins, it ends where their face ends.
   99. base ball chick Posted: January 25, 2022 at 11:25 AM (#6062400)
From the washington post about an area hospital:

About 70% of patients admitted to the hospital are unvaccinated, as are more than 90% of those who die there


- gee what a shock


92. Hot Wheeling American Posted: January 25, 2022 at 09:43 AM (#6062381)

The bureaucratic pandemic is about to end in the blue states

This is why I find the tenor of discussion around Covid-19 restrictions genuinely bewildering. There basically aren’t any. The United States is powering through the Omicron wave with its usual enforced individualism. The hard restrictions on our activities are, for the most part, not mandated or enforced by the state, acting at the behest of liberals who refuse to go back to normal because they are addicted to panic and quarantine; the limits are imposed by the virus that isn’t going away. My kid’s school class went remote for a while because people had Covid-19. He’s back in school now even though his principal has Covid-19. As usual in the United States, the people who won the political argument are now complaining the loudest that they’re dissatisfied with the results, and, apparently, it’s all the fault of the losers.


- does "go back to normal" mean pretend there is no virus, do away with vaccines, take no precautions, and accept a yearly 1% death rate of the population as each new variant comes around and say - who cares about the dying, dead and long covid suffering? do you seriously think us libberills love quarantine? significant restriction of our lives? wearing a mask in the summer? pls.

- best to play pretend and ignore overstuffed hospitals and burned out HCW who are tired of the unvaccinated killing so many people and dying on their cots either pretending it can't be Covid or saying , gee maybe i should have got the shot but i thought it was a Bad Thing and dying was a Good Thing or some stupid something.

- even if a person wants to accept a personal risk of death or long suffering, i would shrug and say fine - its like playing russian roulet and after all it is YOUR brainz get blown out - assuming the bullet don't go on to kill/injure someone else.
BUT
that person infects OTHER PEOPLE. you don't have a right to take a "personal risk" that kills other people. like drunk driving, like smoking in buildings. or not putting your kdz in car seats and seat belts. you don't have a right to kill your kidz. at least not yet. unless they fetuses, cuz after birth who cares.

- do you think parents have the "right" to send kidz to school with ANY disease to spread around? how about lice? ringworm? infitigo? strept throat? can kidz be sent home from skool for ANYTHING? how about kidz on a sports team who got skin herpes or some other contagious skin disease - leave them be to spread it?

i mean, broke bones, asthma attacks and stuff like that the teacher has to call 911, right? i mean, the kid can't take "personal risk" for that, or should the parents just be able to leave them there and work through it or something? do parents have the right to knowingly injure other peoples kids as well as their own? should we put all imperfect people in some kind of bubble so they won't bother the rest of us?

as for the parents who are refusing to vaccinate themself or their kidz - you worry about them refusing ANY vaccine - you are talking about the return of measles, which kills, and spinal meningitis which kills and leaves brain damage in the survivors; polio which leaves death and disability in children. they worried about covid vaccine doing something to fertility or something, well mumps infects testicles. rubella kills Those Holy Fetuses the rightys all worship nd leaves a lot of them with brain damage too. i don't want to have to look up all the others. i mean why would they invent the vaccines if there wasn't all this disease death and comorbidity from disease? "Big Pharma" my azz. they only got one company doing the vaccines because the otheres stopped because it wasn't wroth it and the one company has to get paid compensation by the govt to do it. (my kidz pediatrician told me that storing vaccines and giving them is not something they make money off - all the trouble is money losing nd you don't get paid for the vaccines)

and how many of us adults still got antibodies left from those vaccines from childhood? we be in trouble too. i know they say we protected "for life" but nobody gets actually checked because so many babies get vaccinated theres no disease floating around. my parents are old. they don't get checked when they go to the doctor for all this disease. all those diseases that ain't there no mo would tear old people UP. and i'm sure it wouldn't really be real too god for all the millions with cancer or immune diseases

but, who cares. good riddance to the Old People so we can all live our Christian lives having no caring at all for any other human being. which is what Jesus taught. Along with - you are wonderful if you are rich and give to ONLY this church. He said it on the Sermon On The Mount

i don't want no measles. have not actually seen human measles although i know someone who died from it in the epidemic that happened in houston in 88 or 89 when i was a kid. but i have seen what Dog measles does to Dogz and i don't want NOTHING to do with a disease like that

   100. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 25, 2022 at 11:38 AM (#6062406)
I know I'm catching up on something a few days old, but nobody responded, so:

The reality is that the CDC has said recently that most of the patients who end up in the hospital had up to four co-morbidities.
No, they didn't. That was something rw media claimed the CDC said by taking the CDC's comment out of context. That statement was about vaccinated people, not all people. If you're vaccinated, you're not in significant danger unless you have multiple co-morbidities. If you're not vaccinated, you're in danger period.
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