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Friday, January 21, 2022

Tom Goodwin, former Boston Red Sox coach, says MLB bullied coaches into getting COVID-19 vaccine: ‘There was no choice’

Former Red Sox first base coach Tom Goodwin sounded off on Major League Baseball on Friday, telling The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal that the league “bullied” coaches and other non-playing personnel into receiving the COVID-19 vaccine even if they were against it.

Goodwin, who spent four seasons on Boston’s staff before being let go immediately after the 2021 season, missed several games in close contact protocols during the regular season and had to step away from the Red Sox at the beginning of the postseason because unvaccinated staffers were not allowed to access the playing field during the playoffs. He has since been vaccinated and accepted a job with the Braves as a roving minor-league outfield instructor; he did not receive any major-league coaching offers, according to Rosenthal.

Because players are part of a union, Major League Baseball can’t mandate that they get vaccinated. Coaches and other team employees, who are not part of a union, are another story. The league has yet to decide on a vaccination policy for big-league coaches in 2022 but it’s clear teams strongly prefer their staff members to be vaccinated in case MLB mandates shots for them.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 21, 2022 at 01:48 PM | 241 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: vaccines

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   101. bob gee Posted: January 25, 2022 at 12:07 PM (#6062410)
I was watching the Gottlieb CNBC interview live. I have CNBC on mute, but always unmute when he's on live (they usually rerun his soundbites multiple times during the day).

His personal actions have always been more cautious than what he says is likely, and I learn from him based on likely political actions (not D or R - but just what can happen). His comments in this, and prior to this interview, have been that things will get loosened up because people won't be willing to go along with what should happen - so policies will have to change in accordance with *that*. Not the medicine part.

He (personally) has not been going to restaurants, bars, etc. unless something just changed. He's planning on going to some business conference in late February, I think? but that is predicated on Omicron dropping like it has so far. I believe he is (and has) been wearing a mask in indoor places for a long time.

I think the Covid hospital rate per 100,000 people in NY and AZ is still about 14:1 un-vaxxed / vaxxed. And obviously there are a lot more vaxxed than unvaxxed people.

Yup, here's the NY information: https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-19-breakthrough-data

   102. reech Posted: January 25, 2022 at 01:29 PM (#6062425)
Why anyone listens to those bloviators on cnn or fox or whatever is astounding.
It's freaking showbiz.
None of em are worth a glance at.

They are all trained monkeys, clapping for your attention.
   103. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 25, 2022 at 02:18 PM (#6062434)
What I don't understand is how the right turned homicidal.
Well, for Lassus it appears to have been a reading comprehension issue.
   104. smileyy Posted: January 25, 2022 at 05:50 PM (#6062472)
I'm still not entirely sure what Lassus's point was, but that post deserves to win the Lee Elia Memorial Primey.
   105. baxter Posted: January 26, 2022 at 01:17 AM (#6062541)
104 Must disagree STRONGLY/s
1. Mr. Elia is still alive
2. Tommy Lasagna memorial the question should be what did you think of Pareene's performance?

102 Well, no they are also making dough
   106. Lassus Posted: January 26, 2022 at 06:18 AM (#6062552)
Did everyone miss that I almost immediately (albeit not soon enough to edit) admit that I read it incorrectly and said I was an idiot?
   107. . Posted: January 26, 2022 at 07:11 AM (#6062557)
The leftist addiction is to the circumstances that permit them to have a pretext to hector and berate other people as moral inferiors -- and COVID has been the pitch-perfect set of circumstances. So, no, they aren't going to give that up easily. Climate change is and will continue to be much the same thing. In lieu of traditional religion, they've cobbled together a set of self-pronounced moral codes around these worldly issues and now social media and modern communications gives them the opportunity to identify and congregate with believers, propagate the code and otherwise proselytize, and identify and sanction non-believers. (*)

Lassus Agonistes isn't the stuff simply of normal politics and political discussion, clearly -- it's the stuff of religious fervor.

(*) The fact that they are now distributing KN-95 masks to all Super Bowl attendees in LA can really only be properly treated and understood through something like Life of Brian satire.
   108. Lassus Posted: January 26, 2022 at 07:46 AM (#6062560)
Thanks for the sermon, quack. Other people. Always other people.

To be clearer, me reading Gottlieb as pushing a position rather than describing a position was my idiot error.

My frustration with being told I'm addicted to panic because I want to be careful as a medically at-risk person during the most massive surge of cases and deaths is not something I will apologize for. That position he recounted deserves the scorn.
   109. . Posted: January 26, 2022 at 09:20 AM (#6062571)
Thanks for the sermon, quack. Other people. Always other people.

To be clearer, me reading Gottlieb as pushing a position rather than describing a position was my idiot error.

My frustration with being told I'm addicted to panic because I want to be careful as a medically at-risk person during the most massive surge of cases and deaths is not something I will apologize for. That position he recounted deserves the scorn.


Rather than craft my own response here, I'll just channel what most liberals in places like the NY Times comment section say when people talk about their own at-risk circumstances, which is essentially "I empathize with you and wish you the best, but we never constructed society's response to contagious viruses around the most immuno-compromised people before and it's too much to ask of society to do it now, please try to understand." For example, when a woman in my building who says she has cancer literally berates triple-vaxxed and masked me and yells at me in the elevator for (allegedly) not having my (completely useless) mask entirely over up over my nose "correctly," I will bite my tongue and smile and wish her well -- but in no sense is society at large bound by her circumstance.

And my wider comments about leftism, the culture, and the pandemic entirely hold.
   110. Greg Pope Posted: January 26, 2022 at 09:41 AM (#6062572)
Did everyone miss that I almost immediately (albeit not soon enough to edit) admit that I read it incorrectly and said I was an idiot?

My post was immediately after your retraction and I was probably composing it while you were submitting yours. So yes, I did miss it. But now it's too late to edit mine...
   111. Jobu is silent on the changeup Posted: January 26, 2022 at 09:44 AM (#6062573)
Posts #107 and #109 - Brought to you by the rational and superior beings who tried to hang Mike Pence.
   112. Lassus Posted: January 26, 2022 at 09:46 AM (#6062574)
#109 - Which particular previous contagious virus are you comparing COVID to in this societal circumstance? Does that comparison contain better science than calling masks completely useless?

#110 - :-D
   113. . Posted: January 26, 2022 at 09:55 AM (#6062575)
Which particular previous contagious virus are you comparing COVID to in this societal circumstance?


The world has been afflicted with contagious viruses for centuries before any of us were born and exactly zero of them prompted a response even remotely like COVID-19. That's in part, of course, because modern technology permitted the professional and elite classes to continue working and earning from home. If COVID came along in, say, 1988, that couldn't and never would have happened and we'd have to counterfactual things and assign weights and percentages from there. But there's no chance whatever that the lawyers and the hedge fund managers and the investment bankers and the government regulators of 1988 would have closed their offices for two years and sacrificed two years of earnings. But now that they can work from home, they're fine -- and free to hector and berate and preen.

   114. Lassus Posted: January 26, 2022 at 10:39 AM (#6062585)
So, none. Great point.
   115. . Posted: January 26, 2022 at 10:53 AM (#6062587)
So, none.


The world had no contagious viruses before COVID-19?
   116. base ball chick Posted: January 26, 2022 at 11:08 AM (#6062595)
107. . Posted: January 26, 2022 at 07:11 AM (#6062557)

The leftist addiction is to the circumstances that permit them to have a pretext to hector and berate other people as moral inferiors -- and COVID has been the pitch-perfect set of circumstances. So, no, they aren't going to give that up easily. Climate change is and will continue to be much the same thing. In lieu of traditional religion, they've cobbled together a set of self-pronounced moral codes around these worldly issues and now social media and modern communications gives them the opportunity to identify and congregate with believers, propagate the code and otherwise proselytize, and identify and sanction non-believers. (*)


1 - every group of people who have, as you say, a certain moral code - their "belief system" actually qualifies as religion - in mah not so umble opinyin. and from what i can tell having learned what i have about the history of human beings, one of the 2 reasons for war is that group X thinks every other group should have their religion. (the other is - i want what you have. yes jut like Dogz, but with some excuse to justify it)

2 - in the history of human beings we know of, you are right and there were huge epidemics of viruses like measles, smallpox, sweating sickness etc, that went around killing a YUGE percentage of the population. of course Back Then they had no idea about a virus and they thought it was revenge of god(s) for bad behavior/impure thoughts, whatevs

3 - as for back in 1988?
that is an interesting question seeing as
- there was no social media and easy disinformation spreading
- they would not have made no vaccine even this early. how long would it have taken to even get the virus identified? could they even tell one coronavirus from one another>
- wasn't 1988 before private hospitals had to see anyone whether or not they could pay? not like it is now

- there would have been a LOT fewer survivors - no antibody treatments or anything besides the ventilator. we would have had bodies piling up in the streets outside the public hospital ERs. i guess they would all have had to be shoveled into mass graves like the death camp at auswitch.

so
you tell me - do you think the reagan administration would have ignored hundreds of thousands of dead people piled up all over the place? at what point do you think he could have controlled the country freaking out and decided on, like, what number of "acceptable casualties?

- it would have needed SOME kind of public health disaster rules. i bet 3 or 4 times, at last, as many people would have died. in just the FIRST wave. also remember NO pulsometers, no albuterol inhalers neither.

35 years ago is a VERY long time ago with medicines and public health and equal access to ERs

   117. JJ1986 Posted: January 26, 2022 at 11:14 AM (#6062599)
The leftist addiction is to the circumstances that permit them to have a pretext to hector and berate other people as moral inferiors
In contrast to how magnanimous Trumpers and anti-vaxxers are.
   118. JL72 Posted: January 26, 2022 at 11:17 AM (#6062600)
I admit, I assumed the comparison between COVID now and some other time would have been to 1979, and not 1988. But perhaps our country's peak has shifted?
   119. . Posted: January 26, 2022 at 11:25 AM (#6062603)
"The loons on the other side are worse" really isn't a substantive response; moreover, the lunacy on the other side doesn't carry with it the same waste of education and brainpower.

   120. . Posted: January 26, 2022 at 11:37 AM (#6062608)
you tell me - do you think the reagan administration would have ignored hundreds of thousands of dead people piled up all over the place? at what point do you think he could have controlled the country freaking out and decided on, like, what number of "acceptable casualties?


That's the historical question, isn't it? What we do know is that there's no way the workplace would have shut down, because the economy would have cratered forever and more people would have just wound up dying from that. We also know that there were a few holdouts, including Sweden, and there wasn't a secular difference in COVID impact.

As to "acceptable casualties," we know the floor of those -- the time series of flu deaths. Up through 2019, no one raised a peep about those and if COVID hadn't come along no one would be raising a peep about them now.

But the bigger point is that we can't really compare previous viruses to this because Zoom let work continue (*) and that's something that only could have happened in the last few years.

(*) The deaths of the people that couldn't work on Zoom but were asked to deliver the food to Zoom workers and deliver the groceries to Zoom workers and work at Amazon to deliver packages to Zoom workers are essentially irrelevant to the people who could work safely from home on Zoom. Those people don't really matter to Zoomers. The young minority kids whose reading and education suffered, probably permanently, from being sent home from school for months on end don't really matter to Zoomers, either.
   121. Lassus Posted: January 26, 2022 at 12:08 PM (#6062616)
The world had no contagious viruses before COVID-19?

I asked: which? You're the one comparing, so compare.


But the bigger point is that we can't really compare previous viruses to this

And yet, you very specifically did.
   122. base ball chick Posted: January 26, 2022 at 12:16 PM (#6062621)
120. . Posted: January 26, 2022 at 11:37 AM (#6062608)

you tell me - do you think the reagan administration would have ignored hundreds of thousands of dead people piled up all over the place? at what point do you think he could have controlled the country freaking out and decided on, like, what number of "acceptable casualties?




That's the historical question, isn't it? What we do know is that there's no way the workplace would have shut down, because the economy would have cratered forever and more people would have just wound up dying from that. We also know that there were a few holdouts, including Sweden, and there wasn't a secular difference in COVID impact.


- sweden didn't have fewer deaths or less economoic damage than its neighbors and sweden is not a countey to compare to USA. AND they don't have anyone there who has no medical care at all like we do here



As to "acceptable casualties," we know the floor of those -- the time series of flu deaths. Up through 2019, no one raised a peep about those and if COVID hadn't come along no one would be raising a peep about them now.


- flu deaths? what on earth does that have to do with anything?

theres tons more deaths from strokes, heart attacks and cancer

AND there's like about 10,000 documented deaths a YEAR - they GUESS at the rest and multiply x 5 for some reason i do not get .
there are also flu VACCINES that about half the population gets and they are not dying from flu

with Covid in 1988 you re talking MILLIONS a year, not fewer people than get killed in car wrecks.

- you are not dealing with reality here. you don't think there would be serious panic at the numbers of people DEAD? in the MILLIONS? pls answer the question more accurately.

what do YOU think the govt would do? you can't just ignore that many dead/dying people

and all the talk about zoom in 1988 is just nonsense seeing as how al gore had not yet invented da intarnetz yet

   123. DCA Posted: January 26, 2022 at 12:40 PM (#6062625)
Those people don't really matter to Zoomers. The young minority kids whose reading and education suffered, probably permanently, from being sent home from school for months on end don't really matter to Zoomers, either.

"Learning loss among poor minority kids" is a stalking horse for upper/upper middle class white people to advocate for their own preferred policy outcomes.

When our county closed the schools in 2020 it was the upper class white people who complained (on behalf of brown people, but really and transparently for themselves). Not really a left/right thing, we are a blue area and plenty of white liberals were in this group, but obviously richer and whiter leans more conservative than the general population.

When they opened the schools back up in 2021, families could choose to go back in person or stay virtual. Almost all the rich white kids went back (about 90% in the highest SES schools) and the poor brown kids overwhelmingly stayed virtual (about 40% in person / 60% virtual county-wide). Everyone has their theories but when it came time to vote with their actions, it was the very white high-SES cohorts who could easily limit learning loss that stampeded back to the classroom, while the not-so-white low-SES cohorts overwhelmingly chose to stay home.
   124. reech Posted: January 26, 2022 at 01:22 PM (#6062630)
do you think the reagan administration would have ignored hundreds of thousands of dead people piled up all over the place? at what point do you think he could have controlled the country freaking out and decided on, like, what number of "acceptable casualties?


If they were gay, Reagan's admin would have ignored it completely...
   125. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 26, 2022 at 02:18 PM (#6062636)
- sweden didn't have fewer deaths or less economoic damage than its neighbors and sweden is not a countey to compare to USA. AND they don't have anyone there who has no medical care at all like we do here


Quoted for extreme accuracy; Sweden had several times more Covid deaths than other Scandinavian countries. Deaths per 1M, according to Worldometers:

Sweden: 1,543
Denmark: 628
Finland: 341
Norway: 258

Perhaps part of the problem is that people 'know' a lot of things that just turn out to be false.
   126. base ball chick Posted: January 26, 2022 at 02:37 PM (#6062640)
124. reech Posted: January 26, 2022 at 01:22 PM (#6062630)

do you think the reagan administration would have ignored hundreds of thousands of dead people piled up all over the place? at what point do you think he could have controlled the country freaking out and decided on, like, what number of "acceptable casualties?




If they were gay, Reagan's admin would have ignored it completely...


- oh well, you mean Those Peeple. yeh, ignore Them. it's fine if a few thousand of them die horriby and besides they don't infect good White people because White people are not bisexual and don't never share needles or get blood products and

oh

um, er

until a Good White Peeple ryan White got it and suddenly it wasn't just Those Peeple no mo (ryan white is the first White person i remember who got AIDS but it was a tragedy because he wasn't a homosex or drug addict or prostitute and therefore a Not Those Peeple) he got famous when i was in i think like first grade or maybe second, and i didn't know about the homosex/drug/prostitute part yet because i didn't know what that all was yet, but i DID know about how Black people got it especially in prison? hard to remember zackly what i thought at the time but i know i didn't know that White people even GOT it

- but if AIDS had been hundreds of thousands dying outside ER doors (like it would have been if it was like covid only with no recovery back then) , it wouldn't have been only Those Peeple and reagan couldn't have ignored it no mo

but even now the rich (and not so rich) Whites are scornfully talking about how Those Peeple got all this obesity and high blood and diabetes and old folks (yeah - like THEY don't) and it is all their fault and therefore they personally are not gonna have no trouble, seeing as hw they all perfect and so what if all Those Peeple die/suffer.

i can't find recent racial stats about deaths and/or long covid in racial groups. i mean in only america. i guess the stats from 2021 won't be finished for a while. i'd even take excess deaths.

but even the rightys don't talk about acceptable casualties or death at all and especially not long covid, just The Economy - pretending there is no virus, i guess. i spose without zoom all those rich Whites could just step over all the corpses while complaining about the flies and the smell, so as they could just keep on with The Economy even without enough workers

and also ignoring all the medical bills owing - must be in the zillions
   127. The Duke Posted: January 27, 2022 at 08:22 AM (#6062696)
Denmark comes to its senses and opens up like our southern states. Most of Europe will follow. The blue states will have a hard time forcing masks on kids and closing down social life with the rest of the world moving on.
   128. Eddo Posted: January 27, 2022 at 08:40 AM (#6062700)
The blue states will have a hard time forcing masks on kids and closing down social life with the rest of the world moving on.

What are you talking about? I'm in Chicago - the city, not the suburbs - as blue as it gets, and the only difference in my social life compared to 2019 is that I have to wear a mask until I sit at a table. I've been to movies, museums, restaurants, magic shows, drag shows, and sporting events in the past six months. The bar trivia I've historically gone to had enough in-person events this past fall to host their "tournament of champions" this weekend, even. There's not really any parts of social life that are "closed down" here.
   129. Lassus Posted: January 27, 2022 at 08:46 AM (#6062702)
YOU HAD TO WEAR A MASK
   130. Nasty Nate Posted: January 27, 2022 at 08:53 AM (#6062703)
YOU HAD TO WEAR A MASK
So much for the tolerant left!
   131. Zonk demands an audit of your post Posted: January 27, 2022 at 09:03 AM (#6062704)
Denmark's vaccination rate is nearly 100% (in fact, by doses X2 per population it's *over* 100%). Denmark far and away leads every other European nation in vax doses (technically, they do trail Malta).

I wonder if there's some kind of connection between total vaccination and the decision to end such measures?

Seems like a possibility to me.
   132. Jose is Absurdly Correct but not Helpful Posted: January 27, 2022 at 09:12 AM (#6062705)
As someone who lives in Massachusetts where it was 3 degrees this morning one of the benefits of the mask is that when I walk outside it helps keep me warm so that's nice.
   133. BDC Posted: January 27, 2022 at 09:35 AM (#6062709)
Heh, I was walking to work on one of the few sub-freezing mornings we've had in Texas, the other day, but I forgot a mask. Of course I have a bunch in the office for work situations, but I wished I'd had it for my walk …
   134. Sleepy was just “inspecting the bunker”, y’all Posted: January 27, 2022 at 11:23 AM (#6062721)
Interestingly, the US might have been better able to handle the Covid mess in 1985, since there were almost twice as many hospital beds available then (1.4M vs about 800k today). Despite the fact that the population has grown significantly and the cost of medical care has doubled, in constant dollars.

Hopefully someone somewhere is taking note of this, but I doubt it.
   135. Zonk demands an audit of your post Posted: January 27, 2022 at 12:11 PM (#6062737)
Interestingly, the US might have been better able to handle the Covid mess in 1985, since there were almost twice as many hospital beds available then (1.4M vs about 800k today). Despite the fact that the population has grown significantly and the cost of medical care has doubled, in constant dollars.


The lack of a youtube and facebook to create legions of newly minted medical experts based of something they watched or read from horse dewormer hawkers and demon semen causes covid!! doctors wouldn't hurt, either.
   136. . Posted: January 27, 2022 at 02:17 PM (#6062752)
YOU HAD TO WEAR A MASK


IT'S NOT NORMAL WHEN EVERYONE IS WALKING AROUND IN PUBLIC OR SITTING IN MOVIE THEATRES WEARING A MASK. OR A PIECE OF CLOTH OVER THEIR MOUTH AND NOSE THAT REALLY ISN'T A MASK AT ALL BUT THEY PRETEND IS A MASK.

The mask is perfect for the COVID religionists because it perfectly serves the purpose of identifying heretics. And that's a great deal of why the COV-rels love them so much. As even the CDC now "admits" -- it was never seriously an issue -- the paper and cloth masks really don't do anything to prevent respiratory illness. This should have been clear to anyone paying attention when Fauci and the other public health people told us all not to wear masks very early on. They then changed that, fatuously claiming that they only said that to prevent a run on masks, but that never passed the most low of laugh tests.
   137. . Posted: January 27, 2022 at 02:18 PM (#6062754)
Sweden basically handled COVID hypothetical 1988 style and is a good proxy for the counterfactual as to what might have happened. That was the point of "Sweden," not that it was the tippest-toppist in the world in deaths per capita. (Though there's no real reason to limit the comps to Scandinavian countries.)
   138. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 27, 2022 at 02:37 PM (#6062757)
It's not normal when a few thousand people are dying per day and 150,000 are hospitalized with an infectious disease, either.

I'm quite sympathetic to the people for whom COVID has imposed real burdens -- healthcare and other front-line workers, small business owners, teachers, students, parents of young children, etc. People who are more upset about having to wear a mask than they are about the deaths and hospitalizations are very far down on my list.
   139. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 27, 2022 at 02:49 PM (#6062760)

Interestingly, the US might have been better able to handle the Covid mess in 1985, since there were almost twice as many hospital beds available then (1.4M vs about 800k today). Despite the fact that the population has grown significantly and the cost of medical care has doubled, in constant dollars.

The world was a much less interconnected place in 1985 than it is today. We just went from a variant being identified in South Africa to 75,000 cases per day in New York within a few weeks. I don't think the disease would have moved across the globe or even the country with the same speed in 1985.
   140. . Posted: January 27, 2022 at 02:55 PM (#6062761)
It's not normal when a few thousand people are dying per day and 150,000 are hospitalized with an infectious disease, either.


"There's something a bit abnormal going on, let's react to it by doing something else abnormal"? Not sure how that makes any sense -- other than as some kind of quasi-religious propitiation.

People who are more upset about having to wear a mask than they are about the deaths and hospitalizations are very far down on my list.


It's possible to be "upset" about both and that's the way we treat many similar things in society and life. Typically we don't look at one thing going on at any point in time and then say "you can't complain about anything that isn't as bad as that thing."

And of course the "more upset" part is made up and not playing it remotely fair or straight.

The only non-religious purpose the masks served was making people *feel* safe. That's not nothing, and I don't completely discount it. There's no serious sense in which it *made* them safe other than at the very most in the very immediate term.

   141. Lassus Posted: January 27, 2022 at 03:12 PM (#6062765)
a few thousand people are dying per day and 150,000 are hospitalized with an infectious disease
There's something a bit abnormal going on

You are not a serious person.


There's no serious sense in which it *made* them safe other than at the very most in the very immediate term.
Speaking of serious, you are not a serious person.

Do face masks work? Here are 49 scientific studies that explain why they do
   142. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 27, 2022 at 03:16 PM (#6062767)
"There's something a bit abnormal going on, let's react to it by doing something else abnormal"? Not sure how that makes any sense
That may have sounded smart in your head, but that's because you're not.

That's, um, exactly when an intelligent person does something abnormal: when the situation is abnormal.
   143. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 27, 2022 at 03:30 PM (#6062769)
The point is, it's not the masks that are making things abnormal for the most part, it's the disease.

Masks are somewhat effective. Better masks are more effective. I wouldn't and haven't relied on them exclusively but they are better than nothing and when you are dealing with a disease that spreads exponentially small changes can have relatively large impacts.
   144. . Posted: January 27, 2022 at 04:14 PM (#6062779)
Masks are somewhat effective.


I'd say more like marginally, but that's a quibble. They also have a dual purpose of making it easy to identify heretics and that's pretty clearly at this point, and has been for some time, their primary purpose. During that brief time in May-ish 2021 where the CDC said don't bother and a bunch of people didn't bother, you'd still find plenty of people telling news outlets and social media that they were going to keep wearing them for the sole reason that they didn't want people to think they were Trumpists. There's no serious question that they (and their lack) do serve this emblematic and identifying purpose for massively wide swaths of people.

A cult has grown up around the mask. Does that mean every argument for masks is cultish or that everyone who makes them is a cult member? Of course not. Atheists will sometimes overlap in ethical proscription with fundamentalists, e.g.
   145. Lassus Posted: January 27, 2022 at 04:21 PM (#6062783)
You're a quack. Verbal diarrhea in place of acknowledging the data doesn't mean the data doesn't exist.
   146. . Posted: January 27, 2022 at 04:41 PM (#6062785)
“Millions of Republican voters have decided that downplaying Covid is core to their identity as conservatives,” David [Leonhardt, New York Times] wrote, elaborating on what the poll showed. “Millions of Democrats have decided that organizing their lives around Covid is core to their identity as progressives.” And so, he explained, all of those Americans filter information selectively through their political affiliations, which also determine their triage of concerns.

He wasn’t equating a Covid denier or vaccine paranoiac with someone whose mask is more badge than barrier. Nor am I. He was making a wider point about passions and prejudices. He was drawing necessary attention to the intense tribalism of American life now.


Frank Bruni, New York Times verbal diarrheist, today. As noted, there's simply no question that the mask is more badge -- cultish symbol -- than barrier for millions and millions of people.

Tribalism is a more retrograde form of civilization than universalism.
   147. DCA Posted: January 27, 2022 at 05:38 PM (#6062792)
I literally know nobody that thinks a mask is a badge. I do err on the side of wearing them in the gray areas to counter the pressure not to wear that I feel constantly (even in a blue area, the back-to-normal-at-any-cost people are loud and influential and nobody wants to be the weirdo who takes appropriate precautions when everyone else is having unrestricted fun). So I'll make it easier for others to do the right thing.

I do know people who wear masks when they probably aren't any use, but they are either (a) sincerely but mistakenly thinking that the mask is needed for protection of themselves or others in that setting; (b) intentionally being extra cautious because excessive caution has proven correct a number of times throughout this pandemic; or (c) might as well keep the mask on while running around town rather than have to keep taking it on and off.
   148. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 27, 2022 at 06:30 PM (#6062794)
I think there was one guy (David Hogg, a college student) who said that he would wear a mask so nobody thought he was a Republican. I'm sure there are a few other people you can dig up on Twitter if you want. I've seen a lot more people who get upset when they see *others* wearing masks in public, even when it has no effect on them. Accusations of tribalism are usually projection, and this one seems to fall into that bucket.

Most of us are just trying to navigate what feels right/safe/considerate in a time of uncertainty and changing circumstances, adjusting our behavior based on the level of cases in the community, the medical guidance, and our own personal situations.
   149. The Duke Posted: January 27, 2022 at 07:18 PM (#6062796)
131. From the danish CDC website:

% of people with one dose: 82%
% of people with two doses: 80.7%
% of people with three doses: 60%


So yes, if you round up it’s 100%!!!!

To be fair there are a number of other sites that claim they have achieved over 100% but this likely is some wonky math


https://www.sst.dk/en/english/corona-eng/status-of-the-epidemic/covid-19-updates-statistics-and-charts
   150. The Duke Posted: January 27, 2022 at 07:30 PM (#6062799)
I don’t think Denmark and Sweden are the best comps for the US. Much more land mass and dispersed population but most importantly their population is very healthy. No fat asses like me. Their co-morbidity risks are much lower. Another reason why the Asian societies don’t have near the problem we do. Basically, covid has re-taught everyone that if you teeter on the edge of bad health, a disease like covid or the flu can do you in pretty quickly. The UK is our best comp. Fat people living in close proximity to one another.
   151. Sleepy was just “inspecting the bunker”, y’all Posted: January 27, 2022 at 07:56 PM (#6062803)
Denmark has administered at least 13,038,440 doses of COVID vaccines so far. Assuming every person needs 2 doses, that’s enough to have vaccinated about 112% of the country’s population.


Looks like they are taking that 60% of the population that received the third shot, and “assuming” the shots help the 19% of folks with 1 or 2. Interesting math fail.

   152. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 27, 2022 at 09:01 PM (#6062813)
Their co-morbidity risks are much lower. Another reason why the Asian societies don’t have near the problem we do.

Age is a bigger co-morbidity than weight, and East Asian countries are actually quite old. The main reason they have done much better than us is fewer cases, not healthier populations.

Prior to the Omicron wave, the US had a case fatality rate about 1.5x that of Japan, but about 16x as many confirmed cases per capita.

Prior to the Omicron wave, the US had a case fatality rate about 2x that of S. Korea, but about 34x as many confirmed cases per capita.

Both countries actually have older populations than the U.S., on average. And greater population density.

The population density thing is funny, since it's still rooted in some outdated belief that COVID is just an urban problem. Look at the ranking of states by population density and by COVID deaths per capita: The two hardest hit states, MS and AZ, rank 32nd and 33rd by density. North Dakota (47th) has more deaths per capita than Connecticut (4th).
   153. The Duke Posted: January 27, 2022 at 10:19 PM (#6062817)
I’m guessing that Mississippi and Arkansas have low vax rates and weak rural hospital systems and a lot of poverty. That doesn’t surprise me too much.

The Asian question is an interesting one. They apparently did not suffer much from the Spanish flu either. Maybe just better natural immunity to these types of flus but I’m betting they their overall health profile is the most likely answer. Plus the Chinese designed this so you wouldn’t design something that was as lethal to your team.
   154. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: January 27, 2022 at 10:34 PM (#6062820)
"There's something a bit abnormal going on, let's react to it by doing something else abnormal"? Not sure how that makes any sense -- other than as some kind of quasi-religious propitiation.


"Japan just attacked Pearl Harbor and took out our Pacific battleship fleet."

"Let's initiate a program to build a lot of aircraft carriers."

"No, that wouldn't make any sense. That would be abnormal. "
   155. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: January 27, 2022 at 10:40 PM (#6062821)
The Asian question is an interesting one

Plus the Chinese designed this so you wouldn’t design something that was as lethal to your team.


Eh, if you're including the Japanese and Koreans as being on the same "team" as China, then your knowledge of geopolitics is, errr, severely lacking. The Japanese and the Chinese really don't like each other(to put it mildly). If the Chinese could design something that would exclusively kill every last Japanese person, they most certainly would.
   156. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 27, 2022 at 10:57 PM (#6062824)

AZ is Arizona, not Arkansas. Not taking the rest of the bait.
   157. The Duke Posted: January 27, 2022 at 10:58 PM (#6062825)
There seems to be a belief that we are doing poorly in vaccinations. The Mayo Clinic has a nice breakdown by age group:

65+. At least one: 99.9%, fully vaxxed ( I assume this means two): 85-90%
50-64. At least one dose 92%, fully vaxxed 79%

That look super high to me.

The numbers downstream from there look pretty good too.

   158. baxter Posted: January 27, 2022 at 11:46 PM (#6062828)
I think it is an error to politicize what is a public health issue.

Look at it as the weighing of a risk. I wear a KN95 in doors, not outside (but I have one with me in case I go in doors).

Perhaps that makes me a mouse and a coward. I'll do the best to live with my cowardice. I am aware of a couple people in my work environment who have succumbed to COVID, anecdotal evidence indeed, but it informs me.

But, one of the problems with weighing risks is that one can misevaluate them. This misevaluation can have tragic results when one underestimates the risk. And, to invoke "Thinking Fast and Slow," we humans tend to make decisions on an emotional level. Also, even when one tries to think logically, factors interfere, such as cognitive biases.

Some of the arguments appear to be noise, such as what about the kids. Would the same people who lament the kids being kept home from school have been protesting 120 or so years ago about sending those same kids to coal mines and mills? Indeed I am sure you would have, you Mother Joneses you.

I am very grateful to whomever posted the Herman Cain Awards reference on this site. It's the same pattern, repeatedly. My freedom, no mask, no vax, it's a cold, COVID is no joke, ventilator and go fund me (but no single payer health care)

Take care of yourselves and good luck, long life to all.

   159. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 28, 2022 at 03:51 AM (#6062831)
Sweden basically handled COVID hypothetical 1988 style and is a good proxy for the counterfactual as to what might have happened. That was the point of "Sweden," not that it was the tippest-toppist in the world in deaths per capita. (Though there's no real reason to limit the comps to Scandinavian countries.)


Sophistry.

Other Scandinavian countries are quite obviously the best comparisons to Sweden, even if they are not the only possible. Norway is less densely-populated than Sweden, but shares a very similar climate, culture, and even language. Denmark is significantly more densely-populated than Sweden, shares a land border with the European central continent, and has significantly more international travel through its borders.

The fact that people are still calling out 'Sweden!' as if it's some argument that shows that a lighter-touch Covid management strategy is a good idea forms yet another irrefutable piece of evidence that those people are not serious people.
   160. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 28, 2022 at 03:55 AM (#6062832)
Plus the Chinese designed this so you wouldn’t design something that was as lethal to your team.


You should probably put the /s in there, just to be sure.

The UK is our best comp. Fat people living in close proximity to one another.


The UK also has healthcare that's free at the point of access for everyone, heavy reliance on public transport in many parts of the country, and a relatively-easy-to-manage border. And 'close proximity to one another' is relative - the UK has far more people living in shared apartment buildings and the like than the US. The UK 'should have' better outcomes here, but governance has been a shambles at times. Canada is surely a better comparison than the UK.
   161. Lassus Posted: January 28, 2022 at 07:36 AM (#6062834)
As noted, there's simply no question that the mask is more badge -- cultish symbol -- than barrier for millions and millions of people.
Tribalism is a more retrograde form of civilization than universalism.


Tribalism is defined by feels with no data, assertion with no examples. Your level of projection is staggering.
   162. Lassus Posted: January 28, 2022 at 07:44 AM (#6062835)
There seems to be a belief that we are doing poorly in vaccinations. The Mayo Clinic has a nice breakdown by age group:
65+. At least one: 99.9%, fully vaxxed ( I assume this means two): 85-90%
50-64. At least one dose 92%, fully vaxxed 79%
That look super high to me.
The numbers downstream from there look pretty good too.


I mean, endpoints. If you want to break down all the countries ahead of us by those age groups, OK.

For being AMERICA, FUCK YEAH, we're down pretty far on the list.

Vaccination percentage by country
   163. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 28, 2022 at 08:29 AM (#6062839)
Those Mayo Clinic numbers are higher than what the CDC shows. And I think the CDC’s numbers probably overstate the number of 1st shots / understate boosters.

We are doing ok, but it took us a long time to get there, and many people died as a result. And we are still behind many countries where vaccination wasn’t politicized to the same extent — the UK has over 95% of its seniors fully vaccinated and has for a while, for example.

That being said, I’m very grateful for the level of vaccination we *do* have. The Omicron wave would have been much more lethal, and more devastating economically, if we didn’t have so many people vaccinated.
   164. . Posted: January 28, 2022 at 10:01 AM (#6062853)
Were Leonhardt and Bruni "projecting" about the “millions of Republican voters [that] have decided that downplaying Covid is core to their identity as conservatives" or about the “millions of Democrats [that] have decided that organizing their lives around Covid is core to their identity as progressives"?

The "projecting" thing is psychobabble in its purest form.
   165. base ball chick Posted: January 28, 2022 at 10:47 AM (#6062857)
107. . Posted: January 26, 2022 at 07:11 AM (#6062557)
The leftist addiction is to the circumstances that permit them to have a pretext to hector and berate other people as moral inferiors


- you mean like the right-ists addiction to hector and berate people who CHOOSE to wear a mask even if it is not required? who like to pretend that children can't physically give covid to old folks? or the immune suppressed?

- you mean like the right-ists addiction to hector and berate people who are not "christian" and are not White and are LGBTQ?

cmon
let's not start with that idiotic "moral" bullspit belonging to one specific group

anyhow,
i DO know IRL a couple of White rightys (actually, ive never met/spoken to anyone who is a righty who is not White) who got vaccinated and were not forced to by govt or rules at work. of course, they now won't wear masks ever. i also know a few White old people who refuse to get vaccinated or wear masks and far as i now have not caught the virus yet don't ask me how that is.

i also do not believe that 99% of ALL people over 65 in this country are fully vaccinated. no freaking WAY

   166. The Duke Posted: January 28, 2022 at 11:02 AM (#6062860)
162. I’m not sure I understand your point. Obsessing about how many 16 year olds have gotten a shot isn’t really important. The fact is that the people in the highest risk of dying have almost all received at least one shot in the US . And fully vaxxed are extraordinarily high (85-90%). 80+% of deaths happen in this age group. This all happened in about 12 months. It’s an amazing public health success and underscores that the constant carping about unvaxxed is literally yesterdays news. It doesn’t matter if Aaron Rodgers doesn’t get vaxxed. It’s also a success of threatening a mandate. Biden should declare victory and move on from mandates. He’s already achieved 80% of what he set out to achieve.

I know several unvaxxed people and they point to natural immunity from having already contracted the virus - seems perfectly fine arguement to me - that’s how humans have fought diseases from the beginning of time.

And I would further point out that African-Americans perform the worst on the vax metric, about 6% worse than white people. 90% of African Americans vote Democrat. This is not a republican issue or a democrat issue.

I’m not sure what to make of long covid yet. There’s not a lot of data - just a lot of articles and Reddit threads. It may be an issue, it may not be an issue. From my own personal experience, it can take weeks and months to get back from the flu (the real flu, not a bad cold that most people call flu). Having a multiple week/month recovery from a violent virus doesn’t seem unusual to me.

   167. Lassus Posted: January 28, 2022 at 11:06 AM (#6062861)
The "projecting" thing is psychobabble in its purest form.

I meant you. And explained why.

I will admit you certainly are an expert on psychobabble, though.
   168. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 28, 2022 at 11:07 AM (#6062862)
I am very grateful to whomever posted the Herman Cain Awards reference on this site. It's the same pattern, repeatedly. My freedom, no mask, no vax, it's a cold, COVID is no joke, ventilator and go fund me (but no single payer health care)

Sorryantivaxxer.com is full of stories with exactly that same progression, but it's considered bad form to talk about them.
   169. . Posted: January 28, 2022 at 11:17 AM (#6062863)
- you mean like the right-ists addiction to hector and berate people who are not "christian" and are not White and are LGBTQ?


Actually, it's a lot like that -- which is why I noted the resemblance to religion.

the Herman Cain Awards


Wherein awful people take great pains to try to rationalize their awfulness to the cheers and accolades of their co-awfuls.

The decline and fall in two acts:

1990 -- The AIDS Quilt on the Mall and Washington Square and places similar throughout the land

2022 -- The Herman Cain Awards
   170. . Posted: January 28, 2022 at 11:21 AM (#6062864)
I meant you.


I know, and then I quoted two liberal NYT writers saying exactly the same thing. Are they also "projecting"?
   171. Lassus Posted: January 28, 2022 at 11:33 AM (#6062866)
The decline and fall in two acts:
1990 -- The AIDS Quilt on the Mall and Washington Square and places similar throughout the land
2022 -- The Herman Cain Awards
Er, what now? Care to elaborate on the comparison of the AIDS quilt to the Cain Awards? This oughta be good.


I know, and then I quoted two liberal NYT writers saying exactly the same thing. Are they also "projecting"?
While I disagree with their broad strokes, it's nowhere near as stupid as what you said and what I specifically highlighted regarding the mask as a political badge as opposed to a health precaution. And, it's further illogical to compare them to what you said, as they BOTH SIDESed! it. Which of course while ridiculous, voids a "projection" indictment. It's not comparable to your goofiness.

And, of course, you haven't addressed the scores of studies regarding mask effectiveness, which might interrupt your shtick.


   172. . Posted: January 28, 2022 at 11:44 AM (#6062869)
And, it's further illogical to compare them to what you said, as they BOTH SIDESed! it.


So did I. And I have, generally, any number of times.

The bar for sanity and quality isn't "it's not as bad as rightist tribalist nonsense." It's far higher.

   173. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 28, 2022 at 12:03 PM (#6062870)
Wherein awful people take great pains to try to rationalize their awfulness to the cheers and accolades of their co-awfuls.


You should stop doing that then. Be the change you want to see in the world.
   174. . Posted: January 28, 2022 at 12:04 PM (#6062871)
While I disagree with their broad strokes, it's nowhere near as stupid as what you said


They actually said pretty much exactly what I said; I just left it out:

I’m obviously talking in particular about political tribalism, which, fascinatingly, is growing just as Americans’ attachment to organized religion is waning. Political observers have noted that and mulled the consequences. One of this tribalism’s obvious drivers is many Americans’ substitution of investment and involvement in physical communities with investment and involvement in online ones that more efficiently sort them into cliques of the rigidly like-minded. Another is many people’s use of the internet not to check or challenge their thinking but to validate it.


I guess I wouldn't go so far as to call political tribalism growing as attachment to actual religion is shrinking, "fascinating" -- I'd go more with something like "not surprisingly" -- but otherwise, yeah.

And, in case it wasn't explicit, we obviously have seen "involvement in online [communities] that more efficiently sort them into cliques of the rigidly like-minded" at work right here at good ol' BTF. In fact, historians of the phenomenon -- of which there will be many over the next few decades -- could do far worse as primary sources than BTF, ca. 2004-22.

   175. Nasty Nate Posted: January 28, 2022 at 12:14 PM (#6062873)
I know several unvaxxed people and they point to natural immunity from having already contracted the virus - seems perfectly fine arguement to me - that’s how humans have fought diseases from the beginning of time.
Oh, they point to that? I'm convinced!
   176. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 28, 2022 at 12:27 PM (#6062874)

And I would further point out that African-Americans perform the worst on the vax metric, about 6% worse than white people. 90% of African Americans vote Democrat. This is not a republican issue or a democrat issue.

These numbers are completely unreliable, FYI. Most states don't keep good data on the race of those getting vaccinated, so they put a ton of people into the "Other" bucket. If you look at Florida, for example, you see that African Americans have the lowest vax rates but "Other" has a 200% vax rate. It's obvious that a lot of vaccinated minorities are being lumped into "Other".
   177. Mefisto Posted: January 28, 2022 at 12:30 PM (#6062875)
I love the "natural immunity" argument. It rests on the assumptions that

1. We should not worry about getting a life-threatening disease because that will ... protect us from getting a life-threatening disease.

2. "Natural immunity" is as good as a vaccine. It's not -- that's why older folks get measles shots even though they had measles as a child. See also Djokovic, who bragged about his "natural immunity" but still got Covid a second time.
   178. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 28, 2022 at 12:31 PM (#6062876)

Were Leonhardt and Bruni "projecting" about the “millions of Republican voters [that] have decided that downplaying Covid is core to their identity as conservatives" or about the “millions of Democrats [that] have decided that organizing their lives around Covid is core to their identity as progressives"?

Well, they're mainly doing something different (trying to play both sides of the issue and equating two morally non-equivalent positions). People who insist that it's only the other side doing something are projecting, yes.
   179. . Posted: January 28, 2022 at 12:36 PM (#6062878)
People who insist that it's only the other side doing something are projecting, yes.


Neither those two, nor I, were doing that. On a board that skews massively left where basically everyone I interact with is left and every position I interact with is left, I personally am not going to caveat every single post with something like "Yes, there is a big tribe on the right that does this, too." Consider it a permanent, unspoken, caveat.

It's not an answer to anything to say that there is a tribe of rightist yahoos who are worse. Nor is there anything "moral" about adopting an identity around stances, that often smack of cultish, about an airborne infectious disease. The leftist tribe's primary conceit is that they're morally virtuous and morally superior and this is just a subset of that. "My vaccine made me morally virtuous" is a silly and anti-scientific position. When you then add on, "And you not getting a vaccine makes you a moral leper" you're getting into some dark territory. It will take time, temporal distance, and historical review by this and later generations for a lot of this to become clear. But there's no doubt it will, and there's no doubt there will be a reckoning as the generation whose schooling and formative years were badly harmed by the COVID cultists comes of age and reflects and writes and speaks.
   180. Eddo Posted: January 28, 2022 at 12:51 PM (#6062880)
I know several unvaxxed people and they point to natural immunity from having already contracted the virus - seems perfectly fine arguement to me - that’s how humans have fought diseases from the beginning of time.

Fun story on this:

My wife's two sisters aren't strict anti-vaxxers, but one refuses to the get COVID vaccine at all(*) and the other won't get boosted until her job makes her. Both had symptomatic, but mild, COVID in late 2020. They both recently got it again, and both were affected more strongly (but still not beyond "bad cold" status). After they were recovered, one was touting the benefits of natural immunity, and how at least they have "the best protection". After having gotten it a second time.

Meanwhile, my wife and I are fully vaccinated and have avoided catching it at all despite her teaching in person and our daughter going to daycare (and us continuing to have social lives).

I'm not sure the "natural immunity" argument is that good, especially not if it's touted as an alternative to vaccination.

(*) She "won't be told what to do" but did get a flu shot after her doctor told her to.
   181. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 28, 2022 at 01:10 PM (#6062883)
The upside to getting the vaccine is really high. The downside is really, really, really, low. Idiots can justify their refusal however they want, and sure maybe both sides have kooks, but one side has science and reasonable risk evaluation.
   182. Lassus Posted: January 28, 2022 at 01:13 PM (#6062886)
Nor is there anything "moral" about adopting an identity around stances, that often smack of cultish, about an airborne infectious disease.
Strawman.

The leftist tribe's primary conceit is that they're morally virtuous and morally superior and this is just a subset of that. "My vaccine made me morally virtuous" is a silly and anti-scientific position. When you then add on, "And you not getting a vaccine makes you a moral leper" you're getting into some dark territory. It will take time, temporal distance, and historical review by this and later generations for a lot of this to become clear.
When is history going to make more clear the darkness of contending the moral leprosy of drunk driving?

the COVID cultists
Other people. It's the other people who see things that aren't there because of crowds and feels.
   183. . Posted: January 28, 2022 at 01:31 PM (#6062889)
When is history going to make more clear the darkness of contending the moral leprosy of drunk driving?


This is garbled, but I'll try to interpret and say that the two situations are distinct because the mandate isn't to not put something into your body, but instead to affirmatively put something in your body. That completely breaks any real comparison between the two. The real driving analog would be something like mandating that drivers drink two cups of coffee before going out to drive at 8 am or before. (And of course empirically the delta in terms of danger from not being in the "optimal state" is far, far greater with the drunk driver.)

Other people. It's the other people who see things that aren't there because of crowds and feels.


Yes, of course it's other people. Is that bad or something? I mean, the Nazis and the Visigoths and the Romans and Jonestown are "other people," too.
   184. Lassus Posted: January 28, 2022 at 01:54 PM (#6062894)
Speaking of garbled, the mandate is not to not drink, it's to not drive after drinking.
   185. . Posted: January 28, 2022 at 02:07 PM (#6062895)
Speaking of garbled, the mandate is not to not drink, it's to not drive after drinking.


There's no mandate not to exist in a car in your natural state; therefore, the analogy fails. The real analogy would be the one I mentioned before -- if you were forbidden from driving unless you'd put coffee in your body so as to make (alleged) marginal improvements in your driving ability from your natural state so as to (allegedly) reduce the danger to other drivers from that posed to them if you remained merely in your natural state.

Nor do I recall anyone advocating mandating things like affirmatively taking fat-reducing pills or high-blood pressure pills and certainly not things like mandated daily exercise -- all of which would have significantly reduced the self-dangers and system-taxing dangers of COVID. In fact, I don't remember the public health authorities ever even so much as lurching in the direction of public education on the possibility of reducing the danger of co-morbidities by reducing the danger of having co-morbidities. And of course as the real science makes clear, the danger from COVID skews dramatically and massively to the co-morbid.
   186. Lassus Posted: January 28, 2022 at 02:11 PM (#6062896)
Nor do I recall anyone advocating mandating things like affirmatively taking fat-reducing pills or high-blood pressure pills and certainly not things like mandated daily exercise -- all of which would have significantly reduced the self-dangers and system-taxing dangers of COVID.
"We're mandating vaccines, why not mandate exercise? GOTCHA!" might not be as insightful as you imagine.


The real analogy would be the one I mentioned before -- if you were forbidden from driving unless you'd put coffee in your body so as to make (alleged) marginal improvements in your driving ability from your natural state so as to (allegedly) reduce the danger to other drivers from that posed to them if you remained merely in your natural state.
There are commercial driving laws that prevent you from driving in a natural state of exhaustion due to not having enough sleeper berth time.
   187. . Posted: January 28, 2022 at 02:15 PM (#6062897)
"We're mandating vaccines, why not mandate exercise? GOTCHA!" might not be as insightful as you imagine.


Actually, in principle they're the same thing -- albeit not quite as tight a fit as mandated high-blood-pressure pills, anti-cholesterol pills, or anti-fat pills. If anything, mandating exercise would have the advantage of not violating bodily integrity or the long-standing principle of medical informed consent to the same degree.

   188. . Posted: January 28, 2022 at 02:18 PM (#6062898)
There are commercial driving laws that prevent you from driving in a natural state of exhaustion due to not having enough sleeper berth time.


"Driving." Not existing. The vaccine mandates prohibit existing in a certain state and that state is the "natural state" of existence.

"Commercial driving." Not civilian driving.

Lassus, when you and yours first got wind of the mortality charts in July-ish 2020, and clearly saw the massive co-morbidity skew -- we all were noting it on BTF and it was and is impossible to miss -- why didn't you start calling for people to get thinner and consume fewer calories and get checked for high blood pressure and take their pills? After all, IT'S JUST ESCHEWING A BACON DOUBLE CHEESBURGER AND LOADED NACHOS AND 2,000 CALORIE CHOCOLATE CARMEL HOT FUDGE SHAKES WITH WHIPPED CREAM and IT'S JUST TAKING A DAMNED PILL.
   189. DCA Posted: January 28, 2022 at 02:39 PM (#6062899)
The vaccine mandates prohibit existing in a certain state and that state is the "natural state" of existence.

Actually no. Mandatory vaccination doesn't say that you have to get a vaccine. It means that you need to have a vaccine in order to do certain things. Enroll in school, work in a health care setting, serve in the military, various other things. Not existing.

There is also a thing called compulsory vaccination. That's where the police and the public health authority go door to door and vaccinate you. Medical contraindications only. That hasn't been proposed at all.
   190. . Posted: January 28, 2022 at 02:43 PM (#6062900)
It means that you need to have a vaccine in order to do certain things. Enroll in school, work in a health care setting, serve in the military, various other things. Not existing.


It means you can't exist in your natural state in those places. Existence in natural state is an indispensable predicate element of the "offense," and therefore the thing ultimately prohibited.

   191. DCA Posted: January 28, 2022 at 02:45 PM (#6062901)
No, it prohibits you from participating in those activities. You are perfectly free to homeschool, work in another sector, and not join the military.

There is no prohibition on existing unvaccinated.
   192. . Posted: January 28, 2022 at 02:46 PM (#6062902)
No, it prohibits you from participating in those activities.


Only in a certain state. There is no general prohibition from going to school or working in health care or serving in the military.

Not that it really matters to this principle, but there was in fact no option under the OSHA mandate to be unvaccinated if you worked solely remotely and many schools have prohibited even remote only students from being unvaccinated.
   193. DCA Posted: January 28, 2022 at 02:50 PM (#6062903)
Among other requirements to participate in those activities. All three of those settings regularly mandate what you can wear, where you have to be, and when, and what you can say and how you can act. You said that there was a prohibition on existing in an unvaccinated state, and that is just not true.
   194. Mefisto Posted: January 28, 2022 at 02:58 PM (#6062904)
There is also a thing called compulsory vaccination. That's where the police and the public health authority go door to door and vaccinate you. Medical contraindications only. That hasn't been proposed at all.


Forced vaccinations (smallpox) actually took place in the early 1900s.
   195. JJ1986 Posted: January 28, 2022 at 03:00 PM (#6062905)
I know my kid already needs a bunch of vaccines to go to school (although there are probably religious exemptions) and I'd guess you already need them to join the military or work in health care.
   196. . Posted: January 28, 2022 at 03:06 PM (#6062908)
Forced vaccinations took place in the early 1900s, courts upheld them, and then the precedent was used explicitly (*) by the Supreme Court in 1927 to uphold forced sterilization laws in Buck v. Bell. One of the more infamous decisions in US history.

Thanks, but no thanks.

(*) It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U. S. 11, 25 S. Ct. 358, 49 L. Ed. 643, 3 Ann. Cas. 765. Three generations of imbeciles are enough.

The principle is, indeed, "broad enough." Apparently it, and the atmosphere to which it contributes, also induces very intelligent men to write things like "three generations of imbeciles are enough." Again -- thanks, but no thanks. One naturally shudders at the places the COVID cultists might whimsically decide they want to take the current climate as the future unfolds -- "Three generations of Trumpists are enough"?????


   197. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 28, 2022 at 03:20 PM (#6062911)
I know my kid already needs a bunch of vaccines to go to school
For now, anyway. Are you in a red state?
   198. DCA Posted: January 28, 2022 at 03:22 PM (#6062912)
.: You want to do X.

everyone: No we want to do Y. X has happened before, but we don't want to do X.

.: X happened before, and was used to justify Z. Z is bad. I shudder to think that you want to do Z.
   199. . Posted: January 28, 2022 at 03:38 PM (#6062917)
DCA, it might be helpful if for your last four or five posts, you substituted "sterilized" for "vaccinated" and then report whether your opinion would be the same.
   200. Lassus Posted: January 28, 2022 at 03:56 PM (#6062922)
Lassus, when you and yours first got wind of the mortality charts in July-ish 2020, and clearly saw the massive co-morbidity skew -- we all were noting it on BTF and it was and is impossible to miss -- why didn't you start calling for people to get thinner and consume fewer calories and get checked for high blood pressure and take their pills? After all, IT'S JUST ESCHEWING A BACON DOUBLE CHEESBURGER AND LOADED NACHOS AND 2,000 CALORIE CHOCOLATE CARMEL HOT FUDGE SHAKES WITH WHIPPED CREAM and IT'S JUST TAKING A DAMNED PILL.
I tried.

DCA, it might be helpful if for your last four or five posts, you substituted "sterilized" for "vaccinated" and then report whether your opinion would be the same.
This would not actually be helpful.
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