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Wednesday, March 10, 2010

USA Today: Panel Part III: Efforts to develop black talent in USA insufficient

Fans look down from their seats onto the baseball field, see dark-colored skin and might assume they are African-American players.

But increasingly, the players instead hail from the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico or Venezuela.

“People see dark faces out there, and the perception is that they’re African American,” Los Angeles Angels center fielder Torii Hunter says. “They’re not us. They’re impostors.

“Even people I know come up and say, ‘Hey, what color is Vladimir Guerrero? Is he a black player?’ I say, ‘Come on, he’s Dominican. He’s not black.’ “

Baseball’s African-American population is 8%, compared with 28% for foreign players on last year’s opening-day rosters.

“As African-American players, we have a theory that baseball can go get an imitator and pass them off as us,” Hunter says. “It’s like they had to get some kind of dark faces, so they go to the Dominican or Venezuela because you can get them cheaper. It’s like, ‘Why should I get this kid from the South Side of Chicago and have Scott Boras represent him and pay him $5 million when you can get a Dominican guy for a bag of chips?’

“I’m telling you, it’s sad.”

...“The colleges have corrupted baseball,” says Boras, whose son plays at Southern California, “because they have taken away the scholarships. They’ve taken away America’s pastime from the grass-root level of homes.”

Says Cincinnati Reds manager Dusty Baker, “Killed it.”

Thanks to Winn.

Repoz Posted: March 10, 2010 at 12:58 PM | 95 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: history, minor leagues, special topics

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1. The Pequod Posted: March 10, 2010 at 01:25 PM (#3476371)

“As African-American players, we have a theory that baseball can go get an imitator and pass them off as us,” Hunter says. “It’s like they had to get some kind of dark faces, so they go to the Dominican or Venezuela because you can get them cheaper. It’s like, ‘Why should I get this kid from the South Side of Chicago and have Scott Boras represent him and pay him $5 million when you can get a Dominican guy for a bag of chips?’

What an embarrassingly stupid thing to say.

2. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: March 10, 2010 at 01:32 PM (#3476383)

Wait, those guys aren't black?

3. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 01:37 PM (#3476385)

Wait, those guys aren't black?

To paraphrase Ralph Wiley, if they show up on your doorstep to take your daughter to the prom, they're black. And with that I will exit this thread as there is zero chance this doesn't get ugly. Crissakes, we've taken to arguing about golf, role playing games and seat reclining in airplanes. Bring on the Major League before we kill each other.

4. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: March 10, 2010 at 01:49 PM (#3476396)

It’s like, ‘Why should I get this kid from the South Side of Chicago and have Scott Boras represent him and pay him $5 million when you can get a Dominican guy for a bag of chips?’

If Hunter really thinks that this is a major issue, he should just pay Boras to represent all those talented Latin American teenagers, thus eliminating MLB's financial incentive for preferring to sign dark-skinned international free agents.

5. Dale Sams Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:04 PM (#3476410)

Incendiary.

Also, exuent stage left.

6. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:05 PM (#3476412)

Baseball’s African-American population is 8%, compared with 28% for foreign players on last year’s opening-day rosters.

So, that's 8% out of the 72% American players which comes out to 11.1% of native-born players. Compared to 12.8% of the US population being black. Which includes hispanics who self-identify as black also.

I'm just not seing the under-representation. Unless you want to but in to some racialist theories about blacks being "superior athletes" and so they "should" be 20% or 30%.

7. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:19 PM (#3476422)

African-Americans are under-represented in MLB relative to 30 or 40 years ago, before the major influx of international players. Maybe the foreign players should only be allowed to take jobs away from white guys?

I'm not sure exactly what Boras is on about with college baseball "taking the scholarships away." The NCAA DI limit for baseball has been 11.75 for as long as I can remember, and the larger numbers of African Americans who were playing in MLB in the 1960s through the 1980s were not, for the most part, coming up via the college route. OTOH, Hunter has a better point when he says, "I looked at all of the (charity) work I've been doing, and 60% to 70% of the African-American homes are single-parent homes. And they're all mothers. It's hard for a mother to take their kids to practice every day, pay the $1,200 a month to travel and $1,200 for a tournament team." Single parent home or not, elite youth baseball is an expensive proposition, and you're not getting drafted out of HS or offered a DI scholarship if you don't play on elite travel teams growing up.

8. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:24 PM (#3476427)

Hunter has a better point when he says, "I looked at all of the (charity) work I've been doing, and 60% to 70% of the African-American homes are single-parent homes. And they're all mothers. It's hard for a mother to take their kids to practice every day, pay the $1,200 a month to travel and $1,200 for a tournament team."

Agreed.

Also, baseball is a game passed on father to son. If you don't have a dad to watch the games with every night, and play catch when he gets home, you're unlikely to develop a real love for the game.

You can't just go down to the schoolyard or park and join a pickup game of baseball.

9. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:29 PM (#3476442)

Also, baseball is a game passed on father to son. If you don't have a dad to watch the games with every night, and play catch when he gets home, you're unlikely to develop a real love for the game.

And yet I love baseball anyway...

edit: yes, I lied. No way I can't lurk this thread. I've got high hopes!

10. gef the talking mongoose, peppery hostile Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:30 PM (#3476443)

Also, baseball is a game passed on father to son. If you don't have a dad to watch the games with every night, and play catch when he gets home, you're unlikely to develop a real love for the game.

Hmmmm. Apparently, I should hate baseball (though of course what you're saying is certainly valid; my father happened to be absent 90-odd percent of the time & then died just before I turned 8, anyway).

11. Sheer Tim Foli

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:47 PM (#3476462)

Also, baseball is a game passed on father to son. If you don't have a dad to watch the games with every night, and play catch when he gets home, you're unlikely to develop a real love for the game.

Like #9 and #10 I didn't get my love of the game from my father (who was around but not a fan of the game). But I think snapper's point is valid if a little more literally worded than it needed to be. A LOT of baseball fans get their love of the game from their fathers. Remove dads and you likely do get less fans.

Is that stat about 60% of US African American homes being single parent families correct? I knew there was a US stereotype and I knew it was based on a certain amount of truth but I had no idea the numbers were considered that large.

12. Mr. J. Penny Smoltzuzaka Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:48 PM (#3476465)

"FYI to the Reds - you should have got that Cuban dude for a big bag of Fritos but you overpaid by $30 million instead" Love, T. Hunter

13. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:49 PM (#3476466)

I'm not sure exactly what Boras is on about with college baseball "taking the scholarships away."

14. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 10, 2010 at 02:58 PM (#3476477)

Is that stat about 60% of US African American homes being single parent families correct? I knew there was a US stereotype and I knew it was based on a certain amount of truth but I had no idea the numbers were considered that large.

Something like that, yes.

But I think snapper's point is valid if a little more literally worded than it needed to be. A LOT of baseball fans get their love of the game from their fathers. Remove dads and you likely do get less fans.

Yes. It was a generalization.

15. Sheer Tim Foli

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:07 PM (#3476487)

Something like that, yes.

16. Infinite Yost (Voxter)

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:09 PM (#3476492)

My only contribution to this thread is this:

Puerto Ricans ARE Americans.

See you guys in the Nomar thread, or the one where we're making fun of Szym for sounding like a little girl on the radio.

17. UCCF Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:11 PM (#3476495)

Several D1 schools in recent years have dropped their baseball programs, most recently Duquesne this spring, which would have the effect of reducing the net number of baseball scholarships across college as a whole. Maybe that's what he means?

I think that's more about the problems with trying to comply with Title IX than it is trying to keep blacks from playing baseball at the college level.

Even so, it's hard to think of college as the "grass roots" of baseball. 50 years ago, what percentage of MLB players had a college baseball background? It seemed (to me at least) that guys like Lou Gehrig with the college background were more of the exception. The origin stories that you tended to hear - Ruth, Feller, Mantle, Mays - all involved sandlot/street ball and kids being plucked for stardom at a very young age.

18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:20 PM (#3476505)

Dangerous question. When someone in the US argues in favor of protecting or restoring the traditional family dynamic is it sometimes considered a veiled racial reference?

I hadn't considered a link between "family values" and race.

Where I live in Canada when my religous relatives argue in favor of "family values" it is usually a veiled reference to folks living common-law and gays.

No, not really. The increased trend towards non-marital births and single-parent homes is across all races, it has just reached different levels, coming from different starting points.

The overall rate of non-marital births is around 35-40%. Blacks are close to 70%, Whites around 25% and hispanics around 45%. For comparison, in 1960, the Black rate was around 25%, and the White rate ~5%.

19. zachtoma Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:22 PM (#3476512)

This fixation with the declining number of African-Americans in the games is starting to feel weird to me; mainly because I think the question/problem is stated wrong a lot of the time. I agree that it's critically important to ensure there are no structural barriers that inhibit U.S. blacks from achieving success in baseball - a lot of the conversation does have to do with this; things like the high cost of developing an elite amateur player in the U.S., and the high cost of drafting/signing said player compared to international talent. However, this discussion is often skipped over in mainstream baseball coverage, and the scenario is presented simply as "there are less black players today than in the past, how sad..." which, to me, is just full of faulty and kind of troubling assumptions - why is it sad, why is this stated as a given? why exactly are the demographic ratios of our baseball teams supposed to affect our enjoyment of the game? why have we assumed that this scenario reflects some declining/worsening scenario in society in large? And it's often accompanied by this grating sense of tragic melodrama. Again, these are all areas worth really investigating, but more and more it feels to me that people are being made overly anxious by clinging to a frankly outdated quota-based idea of integration.

And baseball has probably shackled itself too firmly to the legacy of Jackie Robinson, which is why a decline in American black players touches off a sort of identity crisis for the game. I'll never understand what that moment in America was like when Jackie first took the field in 1947, but the mythification of it that has occured since then is overwhelming. Maybe baseball would be better off admitting that maybe it didn't single-handedly deliver America's salvation that day, and that it is, in fact, only one facet of American society/cultural life, one that exists solely for entertainment purposes, and that the Jackie Robinson story is one of a heroically bold individual, and not the fabric of baseball itself (though the "everyone wears 42 for a day" thing tells me that just the opposite is happening).

20. Sheer Tim Foli

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:24 PM (#3476514)

No, not really. The increased trend towards non-marital births and single-parent homes is across all races, it has just reached different levels, coming from different starting points.

OK I see. Thanks snapper. You know I have no idea if we have the same trend in Canada.

21. gef the talking mongoose, peppery hostile Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:26 PM (#3476515)

I have no idea if we have the same trend in Canada.

There are black people in Canada? Outside the Raptors' roster, I mean?

22. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:28 PM (#3476517)

Single parent home or not, elite youth baseball is an expensive proposition, and you're not getting drafted out of HS or offered a DI scholarship if you don't play on elite travel teams growing up.

This, and not race, is the real issue. If a vast majority of American kids simply can't afford to play baseball on the level necessary to catch the eye of an MLB scout, that's a problem for MLB in the long run. It's to MLB's benefit to have as many kids as possible playing baseball, whatever their race or background.

Hockey has the same problem in the USA (well, among other problems) - it's simply too expensive for most families. Meanwhile, every junior high has a basketball team, every high school football coach is scouring the hallways looking for the biggest and most athletic incoming freshmen, and colleges are pouring millions into their football and basketball programs. Is it really any wonder that most elite American athletes are being steered into football or basketball?

23. OsunaSakata Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:31 PM (#3476521)

Also, baseball is a game passed on father to son. If you don't have a dad to watch the games with every night, and play catch when he gets home, you're unlikely to develop a real love for the game.

Casey Candaele says hi.

24. BDC

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:33 PM (#3476523)

I agree that Boras's statement about college baseball is strange, though presumably something got lost in the quotation, and his actual remark was more lucid than the quote.

The whole issue is not highly relevant, AFAICT. As a source of talent, the Negro Leagues were much like today's Caribbean: lots of fine ballplayers, low bonuses, free-wheeling market. The quick collapse of the Negro Leagues, followed by the institution of the free-agent draft, seems to me to have put all US-born players in the same boat. In the draft era, lots of black players came right out of high schools and sandlots, as Eamus notes, and some came out of colleges (Reggie Jackson, Dave Winfield). I can't really see the 1960-1985 quarter-century as one where American colleges played some kind of socially transforming role in lifting black baseball players out of poverty by means of athletic scholarships. Black college ballplayers, like white ones, tended to be middle- to upper-middle-class, and still do, for that matter. I don't see any notable crisis in that dynamic at any point in its history.

25. Infinite Yost (Voxter)

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:35 PM (#3476527)

every junior high has a basketball team

I've never heard of a junior high that had a basketball team.

26. SoSH U at work Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:38 PM (#3476531)

This, and not race, is the real issue. If a vast majority of American kids simply can't afford to play baseball on the level necessary to catch the eye of an MLB scout, that's a problem for MLB in the long run. It's to MLB's benefit to have as many kids as possible playing baseball, whatever their race or background.

Agreed. And it's not just because you want the best athletes to be steered into baseball (though that's nice). MLB wants to create future baseball fans, and if people aren't playing as kids due to an absence of opportunities, it's got to be harder to convert them into fans later.

Besides, baseball is as clsoe to perfect as life gets. All kids who may want to play should be able to play.

27. Bob Tufts Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:38 PM (#3476533)

http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4068:lwib-reducing-the-cost-of-player-development-an-alternate-view-on-competive-balance-tidbits&catid=67:pete-toms&Itemid=155

MLB's desire for college baseball is that it becomes their minor leagues (like the NBA and NFL) and saves money on player development.

28. SoSH U at work Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:44 PM (#3476539)

I've never heard of a junior high that had a basketball team.

I'd be stunned if there was a junior high in Indiana that didn't have a basketball team, unless it happened to have a total enrollment of less than 5 boys.

29. Mr Dashwood Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:44 PM (#3476540)

There are black people in Canada? Outside the Raptors' roster, I mean?

Since they had to flee the oppressive slave system after American independence. However, it did not all come up roses for them here, either.

30. Infinite Yost (Voxter)

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:56 PM (#3476547)

I'd be stunned if there was a junior high in Indiana that didn't have a basketball team

Huh. You learn something every day, I guess. In Oregon, they were busy spending that money on stuff like school supplies.

31. PreservedFish Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:58 PM (#3476548)

Snapper sez:

Unless you want to but in to some racialist theories about blacks being "superior athletes" and so they "should" be 20% or 30%.

Is there really any question about this? I mean, I have no idea to what extent people of African lineage are superior baseball players, maybe not at all, but come on, can anyone deny that blacks are not in some very significant respects superior athletes?

32. SoSH U at work Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:00 PM (#3476549)

Huh. You learn something every day, I guess.

While Indiana's love for basketball exceeds most states, the existence of junior high basketball teams is not limited to our state. They are pretty common in many states, albeit apparently not in Oregon.

33. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:02 PM (#3476552)

MLB's desire for college baseball is that it becomes their minor leagues (like the NBA and NFL) and saves money on player development

Yeah, good luck with that. Baseball is expensive, and unlike basketball and football, is a net loss for almost all universities. Plus, for most universities, baseball doesn't have 1/100th the alumni backing that football and basketball do. There's no way that college baseball will ever be a viable alternative to the minor leagues.

34. zachtoma Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:03 PM (#3476554)

I'm from Southern California and have never seen a junior high (middle school here) without a basketball team.

35. gef the talking mongoose, peppery hostile Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:03 PM (#3476555)

I've never heard (from growing up in Arkansas, going to school in Arizona & working in Louisiana & Alabama) of a junior high that didn't have a basketball team.

They are pretty common in many states, albeit apparently not in Oregon.

Presumably, Oregonians/Oregonauts/whatevers are a bunch of effete latte-swilling elitists.

36. Sheer Tim Foli

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:06 PM (#3476559)

Is there really any question about this? I mean, I have no idea to what extent people of African lineage are superior baseball players, maybe not at all, but come on, can anyone deny that blacks are not in some very significant respects superior athletes?

Jimmy the Greek explained all this years ago.

37. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:09 PM (#3476562)

Presumably, Oregonians/Oregonauts/whatevers are a bunch of effete latte-swilling elitists.

Oreganos.

38. gef the talking mongoose, peppery hostile Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:12 PM (#3476566)

Is there really any question about this? I mean, I have no idea to what extent people of African lineage are superior baseball players, maybe not at all, but come on, can anyone deny that blacks are not in some very significant respects superior athletes?

They're also the best dancers.

39. bads85 Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:12 PM (#3476567)

In Oregon, they were busy spending that money on stuff like school supplies.

In Indiana, middle school basketball is usually a money maker.

40. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:13 PM (#3476568)

I'm from Northern California and have never heard of basketball.

41. gef the talking mongoose, peppery hostile Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:19 PM (#3476571)

Purely out of curiosity, do junior highs have baseball teams? Or do Little League or its local equivalents (here in Montgomery we have the Dixie League, or something like that; when I was a kid in Arkansas, we called our baseball operation "Little League," but I have no reason to believe it was actually affiliated with the Williamstown entity) fill that (non-)void?

My high school didn't start a baseball team till I was a senior in high school & in very poor health, so I never paid much attention to it ... but I got the impression that in Little Rock (which might as well have been on the other side of the world from my hometown back in the days before cable) in the '80s & '90s, at least, American Legion ball was a bigger deal than the high school version.

42. SoSH U at work Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:20 PM (#3476572)

In Indiana, middle school basketball is usually a money maker.

I doubt it breaks even in most places, but it typically does generate some revenue. Most places do charge an admission fee to junior high/middle school games (we do for our CYO games, for example), but I doubt it's enough to overcome the costs.

43. Infinite Yost (Voxter)

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:30 PM (#3476586)

I really do find all of this stuff amazing. Our schools were broke as hell -- teachers were quite literally buying their own crayons and printer paper -- and they barely had enough money for gym class, let alone a whole basketball team, at my middle school. And the idea that you might convince people to pay money to watch 13-year-olds to play basketball had never crossed my mind. I played a lot of basketball at 13. We were not good. Even the black kids from NoPo weren't that good, really.

44. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:30 PM (#3476590)

Purely out of curiosity, do junior highs have baseball teams?

The closest junior high to my house in suburban North Dallas fields teams for Basketball, Cross Country, Football, Soccer, Tennis, Track, and Volleyball. All sports have Boys and Girls teams except Football (boys only) and Volleyball (girls only).

45. gef the talking mongoose, peppery hostile Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:32 PM (#3476593)

Our schools were broke as hell -- teachers were quite literally buying their own crayons and printer paper -- and they barely had enough money for gym class, let alone a whole basketball team, at my middle school.

Huh. Oregon=Mississippi. Who knew?

46. SoSH U at work Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:33 PM (#3476597)

Purely out of curiosity, do junior highs have baseball teams?

Not in Indiana. Baseball remains in the hands of the local leagues and the mercenary traveling squads.

47. Randy Jones

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:35 PM (#3476602)

I went to middle school in northern NJ and my school had no sports teams(I was not aware of any other middle schools that had sports teams either).

48. SoSH U at work Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:37 PM (#3476606)

And the idea that you might convince people to pay money to watch 13-year-olds to play basketball had never crossed my mind. I played a lot of basketball at 13. We were not good.

Oh, they're not good here either, at least among us Catholics. Luke Harangodys are a rare bird (as the CYO director tries to explain to any overzealous coaches each year).

49. Infinite Yost (Voxter)

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:43 PM (#3476623)

Oregon=Mississippi.

Oregon = giant tax cut that gutted the school system and yet somehow failed to turn us into a libertarian paradise.

I'm not going to pretend as though I think it's a good thing that public middle schools lose money on basketball teams in some places, though, when they could be spending that money on other stuff that actually teaches kids.

50. Flynn Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:49 PM (#3476630)

Is it really any wonder that most elite American athletes are being steered into football or basketball?

Are they? People seem to assume this is true but I've never seen any sort of really good evidence to back this up. an awful lot of NCAA football prospects seem to choose baseball if they're remotely good at it (Samardzija and Drew Henson, to name but a few) and I've never gotten the sense of that great an overlap between hoops and baseball, mainly due to the height issue.

51. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:53 PM (#3476637)

I grew up in Maryland, and have never heard of a middle school having any teams of any sort.

52. bads85 Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:54 PM (#3476641)

I doubt it breaks even in most places, but it typically does generate some revenue.

Unless things have changed radically since I left Indiana in the 1980's, it makes money, usually enough to help support other sports programs.

>>>Most places do charge an admission fee to junior high/middle school games (we do for our CYO games, for example), but I doubt it's enough to overcome the costs.<<<<

Middle schools also sell concessions at basketball games in Indiana and also have booster programs. Unlike most youth sports, basketball doesn't have a huge overhead. Coaches' salaries and buses are the greatest expense (CYO doesn't even use buses and I believe CYO coaches are volunteers). When I lived in Indiana, CYO drew very well --- a gym would have many games on both Saturday and Sundays, and those gyms were filled most of the day. In public schools, other costs such as uniforms and balls are often paid for by booster programs. Fuel costs have increased dramatically since I lived in Indiana, so buses are certainly more expensive now.

53. gef the talking mongoose, peppery hostile Posted: March 10, 2010 at 04:57 PM (#3476647)

Oregon = giant tax cut that gutted the school system and yet somehow failed to turn us into a libertarian paradise.

Somebody must be doing an unusually good job of wasting some damned money, then. Oregon's spending per student was pretty much in the middle of the national pack a couple of years ago. Which probably isn't so great, but as a native of the Deep South I'm more used to living in places that rank around 50.

54. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:00 PM (#3476653)

There were loads of sports teams at the four middle schools I went to (NC/VA), though they didn't include baseball.

Like everyone else, I'm not sure what Boras is getting at in the excerpt.

55. gef the talking mongoose, peppery hostile Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:02 PM (#3476654)

Wrong thread. Duh.

56. SoSH U at work Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:02 PM (#3476656)

Things have changed pretty dramatically bads. The high schools don't draw nearly as well as they once did. High school games that once pulled 5,000 plus are probably lucky to get half that in many places, and it's clearly trickled down to the lower levels. It started before the move away from the all-comers tourney in the mid 1990s, and has probably picked up even more steam since then (though I got out of sportswriting at about that time, so I haven't been to many HS games in the last 10 years).

I just don't see how the cost of referees, uniforms, insurance, coaches (not a problem for CYO, but we have to pay the staff at the CYO office) and other things are offset by the 80 or so people in the stands and the concession take.

57. Ron Johnson Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:07 PM (#3476662)

#23, Same sort of path for me. My dad wasn't a fan (and wasn't a major part of my life at the time I got into baseball) but my mom played semi-pro (and was a Ted Williams fan)

58. Ron Johnson Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:13 PM (#3476673)

I grew up in Ontario. We had a first rate hockey arena at my high school and a team that produced a number of scholarship level athletes (to the US of course. At the time Canada didn't do athletic scholarships). We also had football, track and volleyball teams. Basketball and lacrosse added while I was in high school.

Edit: Mind you at the time the school was what you might call a mixed middle and high school. Now it's a straight high school.

59. Shredder Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:16 PM (#3476677)

There are black people in Canada?

Hell, there are even black players in the NHL in Canada, like Jarome Iginla. And there was a kid in Owen Sound for a while, but the Kings snatched him up and now he's arguably the biggest fan favorite in L.A. His bobblehead is sitting in my office.

I'm from Southern California and have never seen a junior high (middle school here) without a basketball team.

Seconded. We had basketball and wrestling as our only junior high "school" sports. Of course, kids were still playing pony/senior league baseball and AYSO through those years.

60. Gaelan Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:21 PM (#3476684)

The draft is part of the problem. If they ever institute a world wide draft you'll see the number of Latin players go way down.

61. Ray (CTL)

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:21 PM (#3476685)

#23, Same sort of path for me. My dad wasn't a fan (and wasn't a major part of my life at the time I got into baseball) but my mom played semi-pro (and was a Ted Williams fan)

I remember the exact moment I became a baseball fan: At 13 years old in 1986, my dad called me over to the tv to watch Dave Henderson bat against Donnie Moore with the game on the line. As Henderson began trotting backwards following the soaring ball he had just hit, my dad remarked, "This guy just became a hero."

62. bads85 Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:21 PM (#3476686)

High school games that once pulled 5,000 plus are probably lucky to get half that in many places,

Wow. Okay, that would certainly change things. I will defer to your knowledge, but I know my very little high school just expanded its gym capacity. I also recall a huge controversy with North Central High School somehow getting state monies to expand their gym about five years ago.

>>>other things are offset by the 80 or so people in the stands and the concession take.<<<<

Insurance has definitely increased since the 1980's -- the other expense I forgot is the janitors. When I lived in Indiana, many, many more people were going to middle school games. CYO was a bonanza --a great deal of politics went into which gyms were hosting games on particular weekends.

63. gef the talking mongoose, peppery hostile Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:23 PM (#3476688)

Hell, there are even black players in the NHL in Canada, like Jarome Iginla.

I'm not a hockey fan, but from reading The Sporting News as a kid I remember one from something like 40 years ago -- Alton White.

64. winnipegwhip Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:23 PM (#3476689)

Carlos Nevada agrees with Torii Hunter's viewpoint.

65. SoSH U at work Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:28 PM (#3476691)

CYO was a bonanza --a great deal of politics went into which gyms were hosting games on particular weekends.

Oh, they still fight over that. They get about 4 or 5 games a weekend, and you can certainly make a nice haul in the concession stand over that time period. But overall, taking the expenses of all of the schools into account (our gym can't hold games, for instance, so it's all expenses for us), I'd say the CYO schools are still spending far more than we're bringing in.

66. JC in DC Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:33 PM (#3476695)

Oh, they're not good here either, at least among us Catholics. Luke Harangodys are a rare bird (as the CYO director tries to explain to any overzealous coaches each year).

Here in DC, the premier basketball is primarily located in the Catholic schools. I just took my family to watch the girls and boys WCAC championship this weekend (won respectively by Seton and DeMatha [of course]); it was great, great stuff. Got to see Duke's new PG and the amazing Quinn Cook, among other things.

This, and not race, is the real issue. If a vast majority of American kids simply can't afford to play baseball on the level necessary to catch the eye of an MLB scout, that's a problem for MLB in the long run. It's to MLB's benefit to have as many kids as possible playing baseball, whatever their race or background.

Hockey has the same problem in the USA (well, among other problems) - it's simply too expensive for most families. Meanwhile, every junior high has a basketball team, every high school football coach is scouring the hallways looking for the biggest and most athletic incoming freshmen, and colleges are pouring millions into their football and basketball programs. Is it really any wonder that most elite American athletes are being steered into football or basketball?

This has it somewhat backwards, in my opinion. Granted, it's just anecdotal and one man's observation, but it's become clear to me that the white male athlete is fleeing from basketball and football - in this area at least - and retreating into more exclusive sports (in terms of expense and other requirements) to get away from the black male athlete. This presupposes nothing about the capacity of either to compete, but just appears to be the case. So, hockey, for instance, which requires (around here) all sorts of fees for ice time, grows in popularity among white boys, not because they particularly like hockey, but b/c there appears to them [more likely their parents] to be a future in it. I guess my point is that whatever steering is occurring is being driven by their parents, and not the other kids'.

67. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:42 PM (#3476703)

Edit: Mind you at the time the school was what you might call a mixed middle and high school. Now it's a straight high school.

Wow, Ontario's adopted a separate-but-equal policy for sexual orientation? I thought the Canadians were more accepting that that.

My Dad had less than 0 interest in any sport, including baseball. He took me to one game when I was about 7, probably because all my sports-loving uncles gave him a raft of shiite.

Turns out that my Mom was a huge fan as a girl; her teen years corresponded with Reds' glory days of 39-40. But she never let on that she had been until I was well into my adulthood -- I could never get an explanation why she didn't try to share that love with her baseball-obsessed son; and I started way early -- listening to games when I was 3 or 4. She watches a lot of Phillies games and has a pretty good grasp on the relative merits of the players. (I brought up OBP/SLG as better measures than BA/HR/RBI once but dropped that line of discussion pretty quickly). I do throw in an occasional aside about "getting on base" when appropriate. Since she turns 86 next week, I tread lightly in the area of "Modern" metrics.

68. SoSH U at work Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:43 PM (#3476707)

Here in DC, the premier basketball is primarily located in the Catholic schools. I just took my family to watch the girls and boys WCAC championship this weekend (won respectively by Seton and DeMatha [of course]); it was great, great stuff. Got to see Duke's new PG and the amazing Quinn Cook, among other things.

Are these kids coming up through the CYO programs, or are they choosing the Catholic schools when it comes time to make a high school decision? The quality of play at most of our CYO games (grades 5-8) is pretty mediocre, even if the local high school does turn out some decent ballplayers (most notably Harangody). And the high school does attract some kids who didn't attend Catholic grade schools.

69. winnipegwhip Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:50 PM (#3476714)

MLB's desire for college baseball is that it becomes their minor leagues (like the NBA and NFL) and saves money on player development

70. zachtoma Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:50 PM (#3476716)

Really? No one else went to a middle school with baseball. I think that was pretty common in the San Fernando Valley. We had lots of really strong little leagues too, but I don't remember the Legion or traveling teams being as huge a deal, though some kids did it.

71. Kurt Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:51 PM (#3476718)

I went to middle school in northern NJ and my school had no sports teams(I was not aware of any other middle schools that had sports teams either).

I know my middle school in northern NJ had a basketball team, because I tried out for it. Don't remember if there was a baseball team, pretty sure there wasn't a football team. Actually, the biggest sport at my HS may have been lacrosse, but I don't think there was a lacrosse team in MS.

72. JC in DC Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:51 PM (#3476720)

Are these kids coming up through the CYO programs, or are they choosing the Catholic schools when it comes time to make a high school decision? The quality of play at most of our CYO games (grades 5-8) is pretty mediocre, even if the local high school does turn out some decent ballplayers (most notably Harangody). And the high school does attract some kids who didn't attend Catholic grade schools.

You're right: they typically come out of the public schools in DC and enter as freshmen. The public schools bball is in disarray b/c so many of these kids are choosing the Catholic and other private schools.

73. BDC

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 05:53 PM (#3476724)

I went to a middle-school orientation in Texas when my son was finishing elementary school here. All the coaches from about a dozen sports were introduced, and we were told that "Sport" counted as three academic units or something, so our kiddo athletes wouldn't be able to take "electives." But we were assured that "Coach" would work with teachers to make sure that too much homework wouldn't keep them from getting to practice. I am not making that up.

74. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: March 10, 2010 at 06:01 PM (#3476732)

I am not making that up.

The sad part is that not only had I no doubt that you weren't making that up, I suspect that this is common practice.

75. bads85 Posted: March 10, 2010 at 06:09 PM (#3476741)

They get about 4 or 5 games a weekend

,

That is it? Again, wow. They used to run from 8-6 on Saturdays and 12-6 on Sundays.

>>>I'd say the CYO schools are still spending far more than we're bringing in.<<<<

Do they parents have to pay a fee for their kids to play basketball?

76. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: March 10, 2010 at 06:10 PM (#3476742)

In addition to the above comments, the limitation of 11.7 scholarships per division 1 program will never compete against early round slot money available to the top high school talent. It is a shame MLB can't work with the NCAA to provide more scholarship funding.

One issue other than money is title 9 compliance. With rare exceptions, women's sports are money losers, so men's sports have to make money to make up the difference. Expensive men's sports that lose money (like baseball) are an easy target.

If MLB wanted to support NCAA baseball, the place to do it is equipment and fields.

77. UCCF Posted: March 10, 2010 at 06:15 PM (#3476752)

One issue other than money is title 9 compliance. With rare exceptions, women's sports are money losers, so men's sports have to make money to make up the difference. Expensive men's sports that lose money (like baseball) are an easy target.

A sensible revamp of the Title IX policies would go a long way toward freeing up scholarships for baseball. When I was in college, they cut 3 or 4 mens' sports in order to make the gender gap more equal. Then when they couldn't find women to sign up for the Title IX programs that were created, they just diverted the money to other areas because putting the eliminated sports back would have been a Title IX infraction. It was the craziest thing.

78. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 10, 2010 at 06:43 PM (#3476765)

A sensible revamp of the Title IX policies would go a long way toward freeing up scholarships for baseball. When I was in college, they cut 3 or 4 mens' sports in order to make the gender gap more equal. Then when they couldn't find women to sign up for the Title IX programs that were created, they just diverted the money to other areas because putting the eliminated sports back would have been a Title IX infraction. It was the craziest thing.

When were you in college? Because Title IX has led to an explosion in the number of women pursuing athletics in college.

79. Bob Tufts Posted: March 10, 2010 at 07:00 PM (#3476775)

I have seen estimates that MLB spends $20 million per team per year on drafting and player development. It sounds high, but if true, it is a $600 million per year cost that the other sports do not have to bear. There's no doubt that MLB would like to save half a billion or so per year by any means necessary.

80. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: March 10, 2010 at 07:06 PM (#3476782)

There's no doubt that MLB would like to save half a billion or so per year by any means necessary.

I would like a tree that has $100 bills instead of leaves to sprout up in my back yard, but that isn't happening, either.

81. TomH Posted: March 10, 2010 at 07:15 PM (#3476793)

These guys didn't get BSN to put on the panel, or put out the news bulletin?? Slackers!

82. BDC

Posted: March 10, 2010 at 07:20 PM (#3476799)

it is a $600 million per year cost that the other sports do not have to bear

It must cost $600M just to produce the NFL-Draft TV coverage :)

83. UCCF Posted: March 10, 2010 at 07:35 PM (#3476810)

When were you in college? Because Title IX has led to an explosion in the number of women pursuing athletics in college.

It was about 20 years ago.

And to be clear, I have nothing against Title IX in principle - I do think that women should have relatively equal opportunities to participate in sports if they wish to do so. But I also think that schools go about it the wrong way. You could free up money for women's sports just by downsizing the gargantuan football programs. If the NFL can get by with 45 players, is there really a reason that college football teams should have double that number?

Cut it from 85 to 65, and use the freed up money to fund some of these smaller men's sports and women's sports.

84. winnipegwhip Posted: March 10, 2010 at 08:14 PM (#3476841)

If the NFL can get by with 45 players, is there really a reason that college football teams should have double that number?

Cut it from 85 to 65, and use the freed up money to fund some of these smaller men's sports and women's sports.

I agree. But once again, follow the money to see why the current situation exists. The NCAA should set a maximum number of scholarships based upon what is needed to field a starting team. The baseball limit covers a starting lineup, two starters and closer at best. The reality is that most players are covering a good portion of their tuition. I would conclude that this is part of the reason NCAA baseball is white player dominated.

85. NJ in NJ Posted: March 10, 2010 at 08:31 PM (#3476856)

I'm shocked that there are parts of the country without a junior high basketball team.

-'98 CYO JV Basketball Bronx Champions

86. kthejoker Posted: March 10, 2010 at 08:34 PM (#3476861)

What I have learned from this thread is that boys with dad fans became baseball players, and boys with mom fans moved into their basements.

87. base ball chick Posted: March 10, 2010 at 09:02 PM (#3476883)

kthejoker Posted: March 10, 2010 at 03:34 PM (#3476861)

What I have learned from this thread is that boys with dad fans became baseball players, and boys with mom fans moved into their basements.

and grrrrls with mom fans become bloggers and hang on baseball internet boards with boys who grew up with mom fans

88. SoSH U at work Posted: March 10, 2010 at 09:07 PM (#3476887)

and grrrrls with mom fans become bloggers and hang on baseball internet boards with boys who grew up with mom fans

I had the best kind of parents. Dad was a Red Sox fan, mom a Brooklyn Dodgers fan. Their mutual hatred of the Yankees helped bring them together.

89. Cabbage Posted: March 10, 2010 at 09:25 PM (#3476901)

(I brought up OBP/SLG as better measures than BA/HR/RBI once but dropped that line of discussion pretty quickly). I do throw in an occasional aside about "getting on base" when appropriate. Since she turns 86 next week, I tread lightly in the area of "Modern" metrics.

You know, I have this theory that if OBP was reversed and called "Out Percentage" the whole stupid debate and resistance to more modern statistics would have never happened.

90. Tom T Posted: March 10, 2010 at 09:31 PM (#3476914)

I'm shocked that there are parts of the country without a junior high basketball team.

I'm also floored by this fact. I'm near Lafayette (an hour south of SoSH) and our ELEMENTARY schools have basketball AND football teams...and more than just the parents show up at the games!

That said, our middle schools do NOT have organized baseball teams --- they coordinate the summer leagues (under PONY), instead. This is entertaining in a certain respect, because while we've got local product Dustin Keller in the NFL, we have produced many, many more baseball players (though none so good...but "Go Josh Lindblom!" nonetheless) over the past 30 years.

I should note, however, that the area has a 30 year history of supporting youth/amateur athletics, as evidenced by the Colt World Series. Heh...I think that more people show up to the basketball/football games at our elementary school than show up to Purdue's baseball games.

91. Biscuit_pants Posted: March 11, 2010 at 01:36 AM (#3477109)

Is there really any question about this? I mean, I have no idea to what extent people of African lineage are superior baseball players, maybe not at all, but come on, can anyone deny that blacks are not in some very significant respects superior athletes?

I cannot answer this question but here are some anecdotal things from my life. For a good chunk of my life I was the only white person on my block (both black and Puerto Rican) I was quite good at sports and played the majority of every day. When we moved to the suburbs it was my first time being around white people and the first thing that struck me was that most white kids did not play sports all that much. Sure they were all in a sport of some kind but it was different. When I was in the city me and a friend or two would start a game of baseball and as the day wore on people would come in and out of the game all day long. When I moved to the suburbs no one wanted to play until there were enough people for a good game.

92. Biscuit_pants Posted: March 11, 2010 at 01:39 AM (#3477111)

I think that more people show up to the basketball/football games at our elementary school than show up to Purdue's baseball games.

Having played against Purdue, just the parents showing up to the elementary school games might do the job :)

93. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: March 11, 2010 at 02:15 AM (#3477129)

I'd be stunned if there was a junior high in Indiana that didn't have a basketball team

I went to junior high in New York and my middle school had both a 7th grade and 8th grade basketball team. I can't imagine any school in the area did not have a basketball team.

We had a baseball team, too, although when I was there it was a grade 7-9 team. (I went to a very small high school. Because of this, we did not have our own middle or high school football teams for a very long time, but we shared a team with a neighboring town.)

94. Infinite Yost (Voxter)

Posted: March 11, 2010 at 02:38 AM (#3477135)

Oregon's spending per student was pretty much in the middle of the national pack a couple of years ago. Which probably isn't so great, but as a native of the Deep South I'm more used to living in places that rank around 50.

There are a few factors at play here, I think:

1. My perceptions are skewed by expectations. When I started school, Oregon was at or near the top of those charts every year, and was widely reknowned for its excellent public school system. In 1988, Measure 5 was passed, and suddenly our schools dropped veeerry far down those lists. Within 5 years teachers were buying their own school supplies.

2. I think things have rebounded a little bit since I left public school. Keep in mind that this was all almost 20 years ago -- I started at a Catholic high school in 1994. Since then, until very recently, Oregon's economy was one of the strongest in the country, and we still see signifigant immigration from other parts of the country, slightly propping up our tax base, especially since many of these immigrants are retirees, who pay into the coffers but don't put kids in school.

3. I'm not sure how the spending is done elsewhere -- I suppose Oregon isn't atypical -- but some schools are much better funded than others, and Oregon's a small enough state that that upper crust of big suburban schools and the uber-rich Bend high schools can skew the stats.

There's very little culture of sub-college-level sports in Oregon, and even at that level, it's really only U of O football and OSU basketball that are significant draws, historically. My high school had a very strong basketball program, one that won a state title the year before I showed up and continued to win our conference every year the whole time I was in school. Nobody went to those games. Our football program had Joe Harrington and was also pretty successful: very few people attended anything but homecoming and playoff games.

The idea of asking people to come watch middle schoolers play sports and pay for the privilige -- I knew there were probably middle school sports teams out there, but I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that people would pay to watch them. They barely charged admission to our high school games.

95. Tom T Posted: March 11, 2010 at 03:09 AM (#3477146)

Having played against Purdue, just the parents showing up to the elementary school games might do the job :)

That's what going a century-plus (since 1909) without a Big Ten title will do to you....

The fact that you don't have to pay to see the game doesn't help them any. The hill by the stadium actually gives a GREAT view (watched the Allensworth era teams from there). Then again, it isn't like Purdue is expecting to derive any positive revenue from baseball, so anything that gets people to follow the team is probably viewed as a positive by the AD.

Still, even though they've stunk for over a century, I don't think they do enough to play up the history of baseball at Purdue...Michael Birck of Tellabs always has interesting (as in intriguing and fun, not ribald or secretive) stories about Ray "Cracker" Schalk and other aspects of Purdue baseball in the late '50s.

96. Snowboy Posted: March 11, 2010 at 09:18 AM (#3477232)

Allensworth era teams

I didn't know Jermaine went to Purdue (hmm, maybe I've just forgotten.)
I'm probably the only person in the world who saw Jermaine play in the NY-Penn league, and then in AAA. Welland, Ontario, and Calgary, Alberta. Neither city has minor league teams anymore.

His '96 season in Calgary made us think he was a future star. I made a point of going to watch him when he came back to Cowtown, this time with Gary in the Northern League, just a couple years ago. I wasn't the only one, I remember he got a pretty warm reception.

Sounds like a nice park. Maybe I'll get some earplugs and check it out someday.

97. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: March 11, 2010 at 11:32 AM (#3477236)

I have seen estimates that MLB spends $20 million per team per year on drafting and player development. It sounds high, but if true, it is a $600 million per year cost that the other sports do not have to bear.

That's a bit misleading. Other sports do have to scout, draft and sign players too, albeit at a higher age. And they don't get to keep their young players cost controlled for 7 years.

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