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Baseball Primer Newsblog — The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand Wednesday, August 03, 2011Vote Thurman Munson into the Hall of FameI got sent this last night…wonder why.
In fact Thurman Munson has a lower lifetime OPS+ then Hall of Fame Catchers Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Johnny Bench, and Carlton Fisk! Repoz
Posted: August 03, 2011 at 02:26 PM | 36 comment(s)
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1. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 03, 2011 at 02:47 PM (#3891707)Ted Simmons or Gene Tenace.
And he had more ugly than Jim Palmer which overcomes having both fewer candybars and types of vision than Reggie Jackson. I'm going to vote for him another 100 times.
A Lifetime Batting Average? Is that like the rate you played a domestic abuser in a made-for-TV movie? Would Dean Cain be the Ty Cobb in this category.
Ted Simmons would move Munson back to #4. Fury Gene, though, played only a little over half of his games as a catcher. His 3 years with the most games caught are 125, 104, and 99.
Simmons is the best eligible catcher not in the HOF. Leaving it to guys who played post integration, Munson or Bill Freehan are probably the next best catchers not in the hall.
Or Elston Howard. I'm assuming the same eligibility standards as you. I think Freehan is a cut above Howard and Munson.
.... but a 136 OPS+ (in only 5525 PAs- less than Thurm)
2nd highest OPS+ all time for someone who played 50% of his game behind the plate
Tenace was likely an MLB caliber hitter at age 22, didn't play regularly until age 26, is "missing" some 750-1250 PAs on the front end of his career due to organizational choice- that's what kills him- he'd never be in the HOF but with those extra PAs he'd likely be in the HOM
Player Rfield PA OPS+
Elston Howard 40 5843 108
Thurman Munson 32 5903 116
Nomar Garciaparra 24 6116 124
Ernie Lombardi 0 6349 126
Cecil Travis 0 5414 108
Javy Lopez -25 5793 112
Mickey Tettleton -52 5745 121
That's not really highly enlightening, though the players on the list do share common ground in that they were really good for a relatively brief time. The catchers had short careers mostly just because they were catchers, though Howard was slowed by Yankee organizational timidity and being blocked by Yogi Berra, and Tettleton, frankly, by not being a very good catcher, and getting limited time there till he was too old to do anything but have a couple of big years at 1B and RF and DH. Travis's career was shortened by the War, and Nomar's by being Nomar.
Munson was an excellent player, but the current Hall standards don't seem to look highly on excellent catchers with careers that short, except for Lombardi who (a) had some interesting character notes and (b) took forever to be a Veterans' inductee. It does seem that Munson's career was winding down even before he crashed, and nobody should really get "death credit" for the Hall unless they were an outstanding humanitarian or something, which would be an odd way of describing Thurman Munson, not to speak ill.
In what - mid-career deaths?
What, too soon?
Howard's career is a bit short on value. He was a great catcher for 6 seasons out of a 7 year stretch, at ages 29-35. Outside of that, he doesn't have much at all. Rookie season at 26 is outstanding in part time play, but not so good at 27-28.
Was he a late bloomer or did racism hold him back? Obviously his path at catcher was blocked some by Yogi Berra. Looking at his minor league stats, his 1954 season is great, but the year before that he hit 286/326/427 - not an obvious "should be in the majors" line.
Then there's Korea - from BB-ref bullpen "He also served two years in the U.S. Army during the Korean War, missing the 1951-1952 seasons. One can easily argue that, were it not for the playing time lost to military service, the color barrier, and to being stuck behind the great Berra, Howard would have made it to the Hall of Fame."
Yeah, I can understand how the combination of circumstances made him into a late bloomer. Then again, had he come up in 1975 for a team without a HOF catcher, would he still have so much left in the tank by his early 30's? It's a very tough what-if case. I can see arguing for him as a peak candidate.
He was coming off four consecutive seasons of 180-plus hits. And Thurm wasn't known for legging them out. He was on the backside of his career...but I don't think he was cooked or anything. I think his biggest HOF obstacle might have been that by the time of his death it seemed like his heart really just wasn't into baseball anymore. You got the impression from interviews that he could've walked away from the game at any time.
Rk Player WAR/pos OPS+ PA From To Age G Career
1 Johnny Bench 69.7 129 7700 1967 1980 19-32 1877 71.3 H
2 Gary Carter 62.8 124 6900 1974 1986 20-32 1688 66.3 H
3 Ivan Rodriguez 57.1 115 7215 1991 2004 19-32 1758 68.0
4 Mike Piazza 52.6 155 5193 1992 2001 23-32 1258 59.1
5 Joe Torre 51.2 132 7397 1960 1973 19-32 1808 55.6
6 Ted Simmons 49.4 124 7444 1968 1982 18-32 1801 50.4
7 Mickey Cochrane 48.9 129 5902 1925 1935 22-32 1411 51.2 H
8 Yogi Berra 48.6 128 6090 1946 1957 21-32 1474 61.9 H
9 Bill Dickey 45.8 130 5504 1928 1939 21-32 1353 54.4 H
10 Buck Ewing 44.9 139 4229 1880 1892 20-32 971 51.8 H
11 Thurman Munson 43.4 116 5903 1969 1979 22-32 1423 43.4
12 Bill Freehan 41.5 114 6176 1961 1974 19-32 1583 43.3
13 Gene Tenace 41.4 136 4692 1969 1979 22-32 1245 48.7
14 Joe Mauer 39.8 134 3782 2004 2011 21-28 887 39.8
15 Carlton Fisk 37.7 126 4353 1969 1980 21-32 1078 67.3 H
16 Darrell Porter 37.1 112 5945 1971 1984 19-32 1545 40.6
17 Roger Bresnahan 36.6 131 4496 1897 1911 18-32 1151 41.6 H
18 Jason Kendall 36.3 103 6584 1996 2006 22-32 1545 38.1
19 Wally Schang 32.0 127 3987 1913 1922 23-32 1111 43.8
20 Jack Clements 30.4 119 4291 1884 1897 19-32 1041 31.9
21 Jim Sundberg 29.2 91 5101 1974 1983 23-32 1398 35.1
22 Roy Campanella 28.9 128 3453 1948 1954 26-32 865 36.2 H
23 Gabby Hartnett 28.8 123 4534 1922 1933 21-32 1228 50.3 H
24 Lance Parrish 28.3 109 5670 1977 1988 21-32 1399 35.7
25 Jorge Posada 27.6 122 3999 1995 2004 23-32 1003 45.1
Munson for Love
Maris for Maki
Deal?
Does Mauer have the most games played not at catcher among that list? I count basically a full season(130) games not at catcher.
The aforementioned Tenace beats him in one season (134 games at first in 1973). Buck Ewing and Roger Bresnahan also spent quite a bit of time at other positions, and even Gary Carter played about 130 games in the outfield before being firmly established behind the plate.
Yeah. I guess I'll never get why it's so hard for some people to understand that borderline candidates will have their fanboys, especially if the player died tragically in mid-career. Who are these folks hurting, exactly?
Hmmmm. I'm mildly surprised that he's not in.
Rk Player G at C
1 Ivan Rodriguez 2538 2424
2 Carlton Fisk 2499 2226
3 Ted Simmons 2456 1771
4 Gary Carter 2295 2056
5 Bob Boone 2264 2225
6 Johnny Bench 2158 1742
7 Yogi Berra 2120 1699
8 Jason Kendall 2085 2025
9 Gabby Hartnett 1991 1793
10 Tony Pena 1988 1950
11 Lance Parrish 1988 1818
12 Benito Santiago 1978 1917
13 Brad Ausmus 1971 1938
14 Jim Sundberg 1962 1927
15 Al Lopez 1950 1918
16 Mike Piazza 1912 1630
17 Rick Ferrell 1884 1806
18 Ernie Lombardi 1853 1544
19 Wally Schang 1841 1435
20 Jorge Posada 1800 1573
21 Bill Dickey 1789 1708
22 Darrell Porter 1782 1506
23 Deacon McGuire 1782 1612
24 Bill Freehan 1774 1581
25 Rick Dempsey 1766 1633
26 Ray Schalk 1762 1727
27 Sherm Lollar 1752 1571
28 Jim Hegan 1666 1629
29 Luke Sewell 1630 1562
30 Rollie Hemsley 1593 1482
31 Steve ONeill 1590 1532
32 John Roseboro 1585 1476
33 Del Crandall 1573 1479
34 Jason Varitek 1527 1469
35 Mickey Cochrane 1482 1451
36 Muddy Ruel 1467 1410
37 A.J. Pierzynski 1461 1407
In what - mid-career deaths?
What, too soon?
I think I've identified the problem here; whenever you ask a question containing the word "who," I've been mistaking it for the first baseman's nickname, which is also the word "Who."
At age 31 in 1978, with his bad knees, they tried 13 games in RF, which were an adventure. 101 OPS+ in 154 G (125 C), which was good but matched his worst career effort.
In 1979, he had dropped to 95 OPS+, and any extrapolations without context are silly. He caught 1095 G at C from 1970-78, and it caught up with him. He was a very good player with some very good teams, and I have voted for him on the tail end of weaker HOM ballots.
But if you think his career stats would be significantly more impressive if he had lived longer, look closer.
I saw the half-career of Munson and the double career of Fisk myself, and they were both really feisty. Munson caught more high-priced, new-fangled free agent SPs, to be fair. If Fisk had as high a priced-staff as Munson, his team would beat Munson (wait, they sometimes did anyway).
Because God hates me. Other than the intervention of a force greater than God (Michael Jordan) and last year's Blackhawks miracle, nada championships for moi.
Cubs, Bulls, Hawks, Vikings, DePaul/Illinois
That is a record of monumental failure (non-Jordan).
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