No.

Sure! Where do I vote? Oh, I see.

I voted for Munson 100 times. I hope it helps!

Munson hit more homers than Paul Krugman, so he obviously deserves a posthumous Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences!

Compared to other great catchers, Munson has more MVP's than Carlton Fisk, more Gold Gloves than Mike Piazza, a higher avg than Johnny Bench, and more runs than Roy Campanella. Even compared to the greatest HoF sluggers in history, he has more hits than Ralph Kiner and more HR than Honus Wagner. That's got to be good for a plaque in Cooperstown!

And he's tied with the great Roberto Clemente!

I think this is a repost from something like a month ago. Anyway:

During his era he was one of the best catchers, Johnny Bench being the best and the other two being Thurman Munson and Carlton Fisk, and all are in the Hall of Fame except Munson.

Who was the fourth best catcher at the time? Because after we induct Thurman, all of the best catchers except him will be in the Hall.

Who was the fourth best catcher at the time? Because after we induct Thurman, all of the best catchers except him will be in the Hall.

Ted Simmons or Gene Tenace.

And he's tied with the great Roberto Clemente!

And he had more ugly than Jim Palmer which overcomes having both fewer candybars and types of vision than Reggie Jackson. I'm going to vote for him another 100 times.

Thurman Munson had a Lifetime Batting Average of .292 and Roy Campanella had a Lifetime Batting Average of .276.

A Lifetime Batting Average? Is that like the rate you played a domestic abuser in a made-for-TV movie? Would Dean Cain be the Ty Cobb in this category.

Ted Simmons or Gene Tenace.

Ted Simmons would move Munson back to #4. Fury Gene, though, played only a little over half of his games as a catcher. His 3 years with the most games caught are 125, 104, and 99.

Simmons is the best eligible catcher not in the HOF. Leaving it to guys who played post integration, Munson or Bill Freehan are probably the next best catchers not in the hall.

> Munson or Bill Freehan are probably the next best catchers

Or Elston Howard. I'm assuming the same eligibility standards as you. I think Freehan is a cut above Howard and Munson.

Fury Gene, though, played only a little over half of his games as a catcher. His 3 years with the most games caught are 125, 104, and 99.

.... but a 136 OPS+ (in only 5525 PAs- less than Thurm)
2nd highest OPS+ all time for someone who played 50% of his game behind the plate

Tenace was likely an MLB caliber hitter at age 22, didn't play regularly until age 26, is "missing" some 750-1250 PAs on the front end of his career due to organizational choice- that's what kills him- he'd never be in the HOF but with those extra PAs he'd likely be in the HOM

Wasn't there just a Munson thread? Anyway I don't think I ran comps for him in exactly this way. Here are shortstops and catchers, centered on Munson in terms of PAs and OPS+ very narrowly, and ranked by WAR Fielding Runs.



That's not really highly enlightening, though the players on the list do share common ground in that they were really good for a relatively brief time. The catchers had short careers mostly just because they were catchers, though Howard was slowed by Yankee organizational timidity and being blocked by Yogi Berra, and Tettleton, frankly, by not being a very good catcher, and getting limited time there till he was too old to do anything but have a couple of big years at 1B and RF and DH. Travis's career was shortened by the War, and Nomar's by being Nomar.

Munson was an excellent player, but the current Hall standards don't seem to look highly on excellent catchers with careers that short, except for Lombardi who (a) had some interesting character notes and (b) took forever to be a Veterans' inductee. It does seem that Munson's career was winding down even before he crashed, and nobody should really get "death credit" for the Hall unless they were an outstanding humanitarian or something, which would be an odd way of describing Thurman Munson, not to speak ill.

Why?

And he's tied with the great Roberto Clemente!

In what - mid-career deaths?

What, too soon?

Or Elston Howard.

Howard's career is a bit short on value. He was a great catcher for 6 seasons out of a 7 year stretch, at ages 29-35. Outside of that, he doesn't have much at all. Rookie season at 26 is outstanding in part time play, but not so good at 27-28.

Was he a late bloomer or did racism hold him back? Obviously his path at catcher was blocked some by Yogi Berra. Looking at his minor league stats, his 1954 season is great, but the year before that he hit 286/326/427 - not an obvious "should be in the majors" line.

Then there's Korea - from BB-ref bullpen "He also served two years in the U.S. Army during the Korean War, missing the 1951-1952 seasons. One can easily argue that, were it not for the playing time lost to military service, the color barrier, and to being stuck behind the great Berra, Howard would have made it to the Hall of Fame."

Yeah, I can understand how the combination of circumstances made him into a late bloomer. Then again, had he come up in 1975 for a team without a HOF catcher, would he still have so much left in the tank by his early 30's? It's a very tough what-if case. I can see arguing for him as a peak candidate.

Not to say he should be in the Hall, but there are only 11 players (mostly Hall of Famers) who caught as many games as Munson and equaled or bettered his 116 OPS+. Pretty darn good.

It does seem that Munson's career was winding down even before he crashed...

He was coming off four consecutive seasons of 180-plus hits. And Thurm wasn't known for legging them out. He was on the backside of his career...but I don't think he was cooked or anything. I think his biggest HOF obstacle might have been that by the time of his death it seemed like his heart really just wasn't into baseball anymore. You got the impression from interviews that he could've walked away from the game at any time.

Catchers with most WAR thru age-32 season.

Mauer has 4 seasons to climb further up that list...

I'll do you a deal. I'll vote for Munson if you'll vote for my boyhood fave Bob Love for the basketball HoF. I will add a vote for Maris if you'll vote for Keith Magnuson for the hockey HoF. Or Chico Maki maybe -- that was a great name.

Munson for Love
Maris for Maki

Deal?

No Deal!

I assumed this was an Onion parody. It was about as absurd, but the jokes weren't as funny: you might even come to the conclusion the writer was serious.

Mauer has 4 seasons to climb further up that list...

Does Mauer have the most games played not at catcher among that list? I count basically a full season(130) games not at catcher.

Walt, we must be around the same age since I loved Bob "Butterbean" Love too. Smooth as silk and a great jumpshot. Those 1970's Bulls teams were fun to watch. Why didn't they win more?

The arguments aren't good ones, but Munson does have a real case as on of the best catchers of all time. He's definitely Hall of Very Good, and right on the borderline of the HOF. Should he go in? Tough call, I haven't made up my mind on that.

Does Mauer have the most games played not at catcher among that list? I count basically a full season(130) games not at catcher.

The aforementioned Tenace beats him in one season (134 games at first in 1973). Buck Ewing and Roger Bresnahan also spent quite a bit of time at other positions, and even Gary Carter played about 130 games in the outfield before being firmly established behind the plate.

The arguments aren't good ones, but Munson does have a real case as on of the best catchers of all time. He's definitely Hall of Very Good, and right on the borderline of the HOF. Should he go in? Tough call, I haven't made up my mind on that.

Yeah. I guess I'll never get why it's so hard for some people to understand that borderline candidates will have their fanboys, especially if the player died tragically in mid-career. Who are these folks hurting, exactly?

I'll do you a deal. I'll vote for Munson if you'll vote for my boyhood fave Bob Love for the basketball HoF.

Hmmmm. I'm mildly surprised that he's not in.

the most games played not at catcher

Total career games with 1400+ games at catcher

And he's tied with the great Roberto Clemente!

In what - mid-career deaths?

What, too soon?

I think I've identified the problem here; whenever you ask a question containing the word "who," I've been mistaking it for the first baseman's nickname, which is also the word "Who."

What bugs me about this argument is that all of the statistics based arguments are valid. I can't find anything that could clinch a pro-Munson argument. But paraphrasing the Supreme Court judge on pornography, I know a Hall Of Famer when I see one, and despite hating the Yankees, I think he should be in. Those of you that never saw him play can't know what a force he was. He was out there to stick the bat down your throat if winning required that. Fisk has all the numbers, but if the two teams were equal or close to it, Munson's team would beat Fisk's. It's impossible to quantify. You just had to see it for yourself.

For those too young to know, Munson was pretty burnt out by 1979.

At age 31 in 1978, with his bad knees, they tried 13 games in RF, which were an adventure. 101 OPS+ in 154 G (125 C), which was good but matched his worst career effort.

In 1979, he had dropped to 95 OPS+, and any extrapolations without context are silly. He caught 1095 G at C from 1970-78, and it caught up with him. He was a very good player with some very good teams, and I have voted for him on the tail end of weaker HOM ballots.

But if you think his career stats would be significantly more impressive if he had lived longer, look closer.

I saw the half-career of Munson and the double career of Fisk myself, and they were both really feisty. Munson caught more high-priced, new-fangled free agent SPs, to be fair. If Fisk had as high a priced-staff as Munson, his team would beat Munson (wait, they sometimes did anyway).

Walt, we must be around the same age since I loved Bob "Butterbean" Love too. Smooth as silk and a great jumpshot. Those 1970's Bulls teams were fun to watch. Why didn't they win more?

Because God hates me. Other than the intervention of a force greater than God (Michael Jordan) and last year's Blackhawks miracle, nada championships for moi.

Cubs, Bulls, Hawks, Vikings, DePaul/Illinois

That is a record of monumental failure (non-Jordan).

34 has it right. Munson was fading fast. He was not at all a likable guy, but he was a good player. The rivalry with Fisk was amusing, and instructive about his competitive nature. He seemed to hate Fisk personally. It was all out of proportion that it seemed cartoonish--like he was Yosemite Sam talking about that dagnabbit rabbit. Fisk was losing games to injuries in the early part of his career, and I think Munson resented that many, in spite of this, nevertheless thought Fisk better.