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Tuesday, February 28, 2023

When Can Cincinnati Paint the NL Central Red?

There’s not a whole lot of pitching on this list, but the good news is that the Reds already have some promising arms on their roster. ZiPS thinks that the three front-end starters — Hunter Greene, Graham Ashcraft, and Nick Lodolo — will all make positive contributions in 2023, and odds are they’ll be even better come ’25 or ’26. Before and after a shoulder strain that cost most of his August, Greene was dominant in his 35 1/3 second-half innings, with a 1.02 ERA, 1.70 FIP, 13 strikeouts per game, and a walk rate cut in half from before the All-Star break. The last may be the most important; it doesn’t take a whole lot of innings to establish an improved (or worsened) walk rate. Lodolo, meanwhile, barely needed a half-season to put up 2 WAR, and Ashcraft and his high-90s fastball ought to have some strikeout upside.

If we construct a roster based on who is under contract or team control, you can cobble together most of a pretty interesting 2025 roster. Now, not all of these players will actually be on the roster in two years; the idea is to get the baseline for a team with the players the Reds currently have.

C Tyler Stephenson
1B Christian Encarnacion-Strand
2B Jonathan India
3B Noelvi Marte
SS Elly de la Cruz
LF Spencer Steer
CF Matt McLain
RF Allan Cerda
DH Jake Fraley

C Mat Nelson
IF Edwin Arroyo
OF Michael Siani
OF Stuart Fairchild

SP Hunter Greene
SP Nick Lodolo
SP Graham Ashcraft
SP Andrew Abbott
SP Connor Phillips

RP Alexis Díaz
RP Tejay Antone
RP Justin Dunn
RP Reiver Sanmartin
RP Ian Gibaut
RP Connor Overton
RP Joel Kuhnel
RP Ricky Karcher

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 28, 2023 at 02:38 PM | 14 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: reds

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   1. Walt Davis Posted: February 28, 2023 at 09:11 PM (#6119094)
Paging cfb ... Phredbird?? ... Duke??

I ain't making the obvious joke for you
   2. cardsfanboy Posted: March 01, 2023 at 12:23 AM (#6119119)
not sure the obvious joke, but the Reds just do not look like a well enough run organization that they can develop the talent, recognize the talent and release the talent. This article makes the point that they have enough mlb talent, combined with up and coming minor leaguers that they can be a decent team going forward two seasons from now. That would be great if the organization had any track record of recognizing and keeping their own young talent, they really do not. They have literally one person on their roster that is a likely plus player for them in 2025 and that is Stephenson(maybe India if he bounces back--right now I'm thinking Pat Listach), beyond that they have no players locked in who look to be true major league players on the offensive side. Pitching looks solid enough going forward, but if they don't spend 70mil more a year on outside players, they are not going to be contenders in the foreseeable future.
   3. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: March 01, 2023 at 07:06 AM (#6119123)
de la Cruz is probably the org's most exciting prospect since ... Jay Bruce? I'm going to remain optimistic and look forward to seeing him up this year.

It's much harder to be optimistic about the team spending real money given the owners' son's comments in the past year. The Reds made a push after 2019 and squeaked into the pandemic playoffs, but it was in spite of some of their bigger signings (Moustakas and Akiyama). I'm sure they'll use that as an excuse to stay out of the FA market in the coming years.

India strained his hamstring last April and was hurt most of the season. He's a former no. 5 overall pick and was a 4 WAR player in 2021; it's a bit early to be writing him off after one bad/hurt season.
   4. Walt Davis Posted: March 01, 2023 at 02:33 PM (#6119174)
not sure the obvious joke

I'm sure if the Cubs were in the NL West, they'd want to paint the division blue.
   5. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: March 01, 2023 at 08:29 PM (#6119213)
da la Cruz is certainly exciting, but, well, obvious flaw is obvious. If he can keep his batting average above 300, he'll be a beast. But I'm having very Juan Samuel/BJ Upton (if he was an infielder) vibes about this guy. Now, those guys were good players! Just, not what we're hoping for.
   6. Walt Davis Posted: March 02, 2023 at 03:27 PM (#6119305)
BJ Upton was an infielder which may (or may not) offer further insight about de la Cruz. :-)
   7. SoSH U at work Posted: March 02, 2023 at 05:19 PM (#6119328)
BJ Upton was an infielder


Not for very long.
   8. Zonk Won the Mental Acuity Golf Trophy at his Club Posted: March 02, 2023 at 08:47 PM (#6119353)
I'm sure if the Cubs were in the NL West, they'd want to paint the division blue.


If Cody Bellinger - with his bat - were to emerge from whatever non-production pit of hell he lost it in, I've talked myself into believing this *could* be a 1989 team...

I have talked myself into the idea that Mike Bielecki is a concept, not a pitcher. I don't quite have the formula for the elixir of Pirate-dom, injury, and disappointment... and oh, hey, look. There's this Taillon guy.

I'm just saying. If this edition goes all '89 - and always, who knows when it comes to the postseason - remember that Zonk said so.
   9. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: March 02, 2023 at 11:20 PM (#6119358)
The 2022 Cubs have no Sandberg, unless Bellinger is him. Then they have no Maddux. Or Grace. Or Sutcliffe (maybe Hendricks?). Or Dawson.
   10. Walt Davis Posted: March 03, 2023 at 02:44 PM (#6119399)
Not for very long.

That was my point. :-)

The 2022 Cubs have no Sandberg, unless Bellinger is him. Then they have no Maddux. Or Grace. Or Sutcliffe (maybe Hendricks?). Or Dawson.

The 2022 Cubs do have 4 more playoff spots to stumble into.

EDIT: We've both forgotten it's 2023. :-)

   11. Walt Davis Posted: March 03, 2023 at 02:55 PM (#6119401)
I believe Dansby is supposed to be our Sandberg ... or at least the combination of Swanson and Hoerner could match the combo of Sandberg and Dunston. Maddux wasn't mindblowing that year -- 129 ERA+ -- and Stroman has that in him. Anybody might match Sutcliffe's 104 and Sanderson's 96. It's not big names but the rotation looks like one of the 2023 Cubs' strengths. The bullpens look equally uninspiring -- OK, maybe not equally, the 2023 Cub pen is as anonymous as it gets but their performance can easily match the 1989 pen. Dawson 1989 put up just a 114 OPS+ which is a match for Suzuki's 116 last year (a healthy Suzuki would be nice). It's the Dwight Smith (141 OPS+ in <400 PA) and Lloyd McClendon (134 OPS+ in <400 PA) that is the big missing piece.
   12. Walt Davis Posted: March 03, 2023 at 03:04 PM (#6119402)
As to the joke (or playful boast if you prefer), I am under the impression that there is another team in the NL Central that considers red to be their team color. This team has had slightly more success over the last 2 decades than the Cincinnati Reds had. Sufficient success that, if I were a fan of this other red-colored team, I might suggest that the division is already painted red.

This other team, located over a hellmouth, has won the division 11 times in the 2000s, finished 2nd 7 times (making the playoffs 5 of those) and has only finished worse than 3rd one time.
   13. cardsfanboy Posted: March 03, 2023 at 06:42 PM (#6119422)
As to the joke (or playful boast if you prefer), I am under the impression that there is another team in the NL Central that considers red to be their team color. This team has had slightly more success over the last 2 decades than the Cincinnati Reds had. Sufficient success that, if I were a fan of this other red-colored team, I might suggest that the division is already painted red.

This other team, located over a hellmouth, has won the division 11 times in the 2000s, finished 2nd 7 times (making the playoffs 5 of those) and has only finished worse than 3rd one time.


Eventually I got that point, but my brain wasn't going there when I made the question. For some reason I went to a Kid Rock lyric metaphor about "painting his wife white. "


I did watch a video today from a Cubs blogger (llama something or other) and he graded the team in a head to head matchup as simply as possible (1 point if the team had a better player at a position or 1 point each if they are about equal) and came out with the Cardinals as better, although he did mention he thinks the ceiling is higher with the Cubs because of Bellinger/Swansby potential. Mind you, he didn't mention Jordan Walker at all. And personally instead of rating staff as starting and relief, I might have gone top individual pitchers 4 deep for the rotation and 3 deep for the pen since on the position side he effectively counted 10 spots (all positions, DH and utility)


After watching the video I went and looked up Swanson who I thought had had a better career, but he's 28 years old is good for around a 110 ops+ and is a plus defender(although this guy consider Swanson as elite defender and I'm not sure I would go that far) As long as the Cubs are willing to cut bait when it becomes clear someone isn't going to realize their potential, they should have a solid team with pretty much average or better players at every position (except maybe catcher and center but Bellinger can still play good defense)
   14. Cris E Posted: March 05, 2023 at 01:10 PM (#6119554)
They just traded away some pretty good pitching that ripened at a time when the offense was cycling down and unable to support them. Even if all these guys mature together and exceed expectations it'll take quite a change in ownership behavior to go out and acquire the missing parts to make this roster competitive. Maybe the new fiscal environment coming via the RSN collapse will incent a team sale. (No specifics in mind, but perhaps if the cash flow changes to a point where you have to win to make huge dollars and losing only nets you a small profit maybe the Cohen types take over from the old cheapskate families?)

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