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Thursday, April 15, 2021

White Sox lefty Carlos Rodon throws no-hitter against Cleveland after losing perfect game in ninth inning

The perfect game club nearly had a new member. A no-hitter ended being the consolation prize.

White Sox starter Carlos Rodon has thrown a no-hitter and he was perfect through 8 1/3 innings. He hit Cleveland catcher Roberto Perez with a pitch on the foot with two strikes and one out in the ninth. That would end up being the only blemish for Rodon.

“On a toe ball,” Rodon said after the game when asked where his head was at the moment, alluding to where the pitch hit Perez.

 

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 15, 2021 at 12:31 AM | 78 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: carlos rodon, no-hitters

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   1. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 15, 2021 at 11:14 AM (#6013568)
Perfection? This little piggy had none.
   2. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 15, 2021 at 11:40 AM (#6013572)
Had he done it, Rodon would have been the 4th Sox pitcher to throw one. 4 out of 24.
   3. AndrewJ Posted: April 15, 2021 at 11:58 AM (#6013574)
The White Sox now have 20 no-hitters in their 120-year history. The Padres had zero in their first 52 seasons.
   4. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 15, 2021 at 12:07 PM (#6013578)
The second to last out was a grounder to first where Abreu lunged to the bag and barely beat the diving runner. Cleveland challenged, which was an absolutely shitty thing to do. It was a very close play, but down 8-0 in April with a perfect game on the line in the ninth? Just terrible.
   5. JRVJ Posted: April 15, 2021 at 12:34 PM (#6013584)
It's interesting to see that on the mound, Rodón swears in American English ("MFcker") as opposed to in Cuban Spanish ("Cagalitroso" "Comemierda").
   6. Scott Lange Posted: April 15, 2021 at 12:36 PM (#6013585)
The second to last out was a grounder to first where Abreu lunged to the bag and barely beat the diving runner. Cleveland challenged, which was an absolutely shitty thing to do. It was a very close play, but down 8-0 in April with a perfect game on the line in the ninth? Just terrible.


It would've been terrible not to challenge. No-hitters are special if you earn them, not if they're given away.
   7. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 15, 2021 at 12:38 PM (#6013586)
Even if you agree with the premise that not challenging would be "giving it away," and I don't, I can guarantee you that their motivation for the challenge was not to generously ensure that his no-hitter would meet the most rigorous standards of historical review.
   8. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 15, 2021 at 12:39 PM (#6013587)
It's interesting to see that on the mound, Rodón swears in American English ("MFcker") as opposed to in Cuban Spanish ("Cagalitroso" "Comemierda").
He was born in Miami and as far as I can tell has lived in the US all his life. Went to high school and college in North Carolina.
   9. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 15, 2021 at 01:55 PM (#6013599)
The second to last out was a grounder to first where Abreu lunged to the bag and barely beat the diving runner. Cleveland challenged, which was an absolutely shitty thing to do. It was a very close play, but down 8-0 in April with a perfect game on the line in the ninth? Just terrible.


That was the first out of the 9th. The second to last out was a strikeout.
   10. JRVJ Posted: April 15, 2021 at 02:36 PM (#6013605)
8, exactly - he was born in Miami and is of Cuban heritage.

Miami Cubans are amazing at swearing in Cuban Spanish.
   11. Buck Coats Posted: April 15, 2021 at 02:39 PM (#6013606)
So both no-hitters this season have had no walks but 1 HBP?
   12. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 15, 2021 at 02:45 PM (#6013609)
8, exactly - he was born in Miami and is of Cuban heritage.

Miami Cubans are amazing at swearing in Cuban Spanish.
Ha, fair point. But by all accounts baseball players are prolific at swearing in English, even if those are the only words they know in the language. Especially that particular one.
   13. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 15, 2021 at 02:46 PM (#6013610)
That was the first out of the 9th. The second to last out was a strikeout.
OK, but that doesn't change my position.
   14. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: April 15, 2021 at 02:47 PM (#6013611)
He seemed to take the HBP good naturedly. I think I'd have been more upset than he was.

The Abreu play was awesome. The most exciting play of the game.

The challenge was BS. The game was lost. If the score had been 1-0 or something, I can see it. But the outcome hadn't been in doubt for a long time. Challenging that call was just being a dick.
   15. Smitty* Posted: April 15, 2021 at 03:24 PM (#6013623)
With the caveat that I have not seen video and I am assuming the Abreu play was close enough to warrant a challenge under normal circumstances:

Not a dick move to challenge. Part of the beauty of baseball is that you have to play it to the end of the game. There is no “run out the clock” situation like in many other sports: it is literally possible to come back from any deficit until the game is actually over. 8 runs down in the 9th is a tough spot and the odds are low, but still possible to come back from so you keep trying.

Oh, and don’t you hate pants
   16. UnclePab Posted: April 15, 2021 at 04:05 PM (#6013634)
Had Naylor run through the bag instead of sliding, does he beat it out?

Also, I'm on team "it's ok to challenge the play." Otherwise, someone will have to provide me with a specific point at which a team should stop trying to win.
   17. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 15, 2021 at 04:12 PM (#6013636)
So both no-hitters this season have had no walks but 1 HBP?

Correct, after there were only a total of four of them in the previous 120 years.

-----

No-hitters with only one baserunner allowed, coming from a hit by pitch (since 1901)

Player Date Tm Opp H BR HBP
Carlos Rodon 2021‑04‑14 CHW CLE 0 1 1
Joe Musgrove 2021‑04‑09 SDP TEX 0 1 1
Max Scherzer 2015‑06‑20 WSN PIT 0 1 1
Kevin Brown 1997‑06‑10 FLA SFG 0 1 1
Lew Burdette 1960‑08‑18 MLN PHI 0 1 1
Hooks Wiltse 1908‑07‑04 (1) NYG PHI 0 1 1


   18. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 15, 2021 at 04:34 PM (#6013642)
Otherwise, someone will have to provide me with a specific point at which a team should stop trying to win.
Somewhere well short of "down 8-0 in April with a perfect game on the line in the 9th." Under the circumstances, the equation goes something like:

Historical importance of perfect game X odds of completing perfect game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Historical importance of Cleveland pulling off comeback from 8-run deficit in 9th inning x odds of Cleveland pulling off comeback from 8-run deficit in 9th inning.
   19. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 15, 2021 at 04:39 PM (#6013646)
But by all accounts baseball players are prolific at swearing in English, even if those are the only words they know in the language.
The ‘Ichiro Idiom’.
   20. Scott Lange Posted: April 15, 2021 at 04:51 PM (#6013649)
Even if you agree with the premise that not challenging would be "giving it away," and I don't, I can guarantee you that their motivation for the challenge was not to generously ensure that his no-hitter would meet the most rigorous standards of historical review.

No, their motivation was presumably to win the game, as it should be. You play to win the game, not "to win the game unless an opponent gets close to a noteworthy accomplishment in which case it becomes bush league to try and you should instead roll over and let them have it."
   21. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 15, 2021 at 04:53 PM (#6013650)
There's a huge gap between "roll over and let them have it" and "go out of your way to try to get a call overturned on a ticky-tack grounder to the first baseman."
   22. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 15, 2021 at 05:06 PM (#6013656)
If the umpire ruled the base runner safe, would the White Sox be allowed/right to challenge the call?

If so, why does one team get permission on a play, but the other team doesn't?
   23. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 15, 2021 at 05:07 PM (#6013657)
Is that even a serious question?
   24. Scott Lange Posted: April 15, 2021 at 05:12 PM (#6013660)
There's a huge gap between "roll over and let them have it" and "go out of your way to try to get a call overturned on a ticky-tack grounder to the first baseman."


"Going out of your way" is a synonym for "trying," right? I think they should try.

And I don't know what you're getting at with the adjective "ticky-tack." You can try, but not on plays involving ground balls? You can try, including on grounders, but only if they're hit to middle infielders?
   25. SoSH U at work Posted: April 15, 2021 at 05:19 PM (#6013665)
We know teams do, in fact, give up on games. They throw position players when they have available relievers, most notably (or used to, if Manfred has outlawed that).

I would imagine there are times when they wouldn't bother challenging a play, if the game is considered lost. I don't know if they would have handled it differently if a no-hitter wasn't in play, but that would be a pretty good place to draw the line. If you wouldn't challenge a call if it was 8-0 in a 3-hitter, you shouldn't do it in a no-hitter. Likewise, if you're challenging because you think it was a blown call, rather than it's the ninth, what the hell, I wouldn't be a fan of that.
   26. Scott Lange Posted: April 15, 2021 at 06:28 PM (#6013681)
We know teams do, in fact, give up on games. They throw position players when they have available relievers, most notably (or used to, if Manfred has outlawed that).

"You may choose to sacrifice today to increase your chances of winning in the long run if you see fit" seems perfectly reasonable to me. "You must sacrifice today if your opponent is close to a milestone" does not.

If you wouldn't challenge a call if it was 8-0 in a 3-hitter, you shouldn't do it in a no-hitter.

I do agree with this.
   27. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 15, 2021 at 06:50 PM (#6013688)
As a blanket rule, challenges should be eliminated if the difference in the score is X or more after Y inning. I think I'd put X at 6, maybe 7, and Y at 7. Maybe make some allowance for runners on base.
   28. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: April 15, 2021 at 06:53 PM (#6013689)
The odds of winning when down by eight with one out in the ninth aren't zero. But they're damn close to zero. I've never seen a team do that, and lordy have I watched lots of baseball games. The only reason to challenge there is in the hopes that you don't get no-hit. That's what's dick about it.
   29. Smitty* Posted: April 15, 2021 at 07:18 PM (#6013698)
Well I’m convinced. In fact we haven’t gone far enough in calling out the dicks going out of their way to rob, rob I say Rodon from a historic performance. Perez should have told the umpire the ball didn’t hit him. The batters should not have swung at any strikes or taken any balls. In the off chance they made contact with a ball, they shouldn’t have ran toward first. I mean, historic performance and an 8-0 score. The only question left in my mind is what inning they started their dickish behavior. I’m thinking no later than the 6th
   30. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 15, 2021 at 07:59 PM (#6013706)
“I’m going to ignore the actual situation and talk about a bunch of other stuff” isn’t exactly the most persuasive approach.
   31. Smitty* Posted: April 15, 2021 at 08:31 PM (#6013712)
Neither is “teams should only try in the ways I deem okay if the other team has something cool happening”. Your position has no logical legs to stand on
   32. Froot Loops Posted: April 15, 2021 at 08:38 PM (#6013713)
Was it wrong for Naylor to bust his ass down the line to try to beat out the hit, or should he have ceded the no-hitter to Rodon?

If it's OK for Naylor to go all out in that situation, why shouldn't his manager?
   33. Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 15, 2021 at 08:55 PM (#6013715)
Was it wrong for Naylor to bust his ass down the line to try to beat out the hit, or should he have ceded the no-hitter to Rodon?

If it's OK for Naylor to go all out in that situation, why shouldn't his manager?


And bunting in the 9th to break up a no-no? that's good, too?
   34. Froot Loops Posted: April 15, 2021 at 09:22 PM (#6013721)
I'm a Sox fan and was rooting for Rodon to get the no-hitter. What if replay had shown that Naylor was safe, but the call stood because the Indians had done the gentlemanly thing? That would have been really unsatisfying.
   35. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 15, 2021 at 10:44 PM (#6013726)
I'm a Sox fan and was rooting for Rodon to get the no-hitter. What if replay had shown that Naylor was safe, but the call stood because the Indians had done the gentlemanly thing? That would have been really unsatisfying.
See post #7.
   36. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 15, 2021 at 10:51 PM (#6013727)
Neither is “teams should only try in the ways I deem okay if the other team has something cool happening”. Your position has no logical legs to stand on
My position is simply "under these circumstances, it was a dick move." The logic is in post #18.

The apologists here are doing one of two things:

1) Trying to change the subject to "provide a list of all circumstances in which something would or wouldn't be a dick move, and the dividing line between the two." That's irrelevant, and more importantly impossible. Of course there are going to be gray areas - if it were a 4-run game, or like a 6-run game but in the middle of a tight pennant race in September, or any number of other circumstances, I'd say that's probably in a gray area. But not in these circumstances.

or

2) Saying things that essentially boil down to "nothing (within the rules) that is done to try to win a game can be a dick move, under any circumstances, ever." That's a sort of position, I suppose, but it's more a way of avoiding dealing with any moral complexity or ambiguity.
   37. Cooper Nielson Posted: April 15, 2021 at 11:15 PM (#6013734)
Somewhere well short of "down 8-0 in April with a perfect game on the line in the 9th."

I get that this is at least slightly a dick-ish move, no matter how you look at it, but I think the fact that it's in April actually makes it more palatable. Going into the game, the Indians were 6-4 and the White Sox were 5-6 -- so, separated by 1.5 games in a division where both teams expect to be competitive. If the Indians were down 8-0 and also 15 games out of first place in September, that's a different story. But for now, every game matters.

An 8-run deficit in the 9th is nearly insurmountable, but it's not completely insurmountable. I'm sure it's happened a couple of times in history. And an 8-run deficit with a runner on first and no outs is more surmountable than with one out and bases empty.

At least some percentage of the decision to challenge was based on trying to win the game (vs. trying to break up the no-hitter).
   38. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: April 15, 2021 at 11:36 PM (#6013737)
Mlb's Most Unreal Rallies:

On June 29, 1952, the Cubs faced an even-higher degree of difficulty. Trailing the Reds, 8-2, at Cincinnati, Chicago had nobody on with two outs in the top of the ninth. The next nine batters all reached safely, pushing across seven runs to win, 9-8. The Cubs' win expectancy had dropped as low as 0.01%, tied for the lowest in history for a team that ended up winning.

The only other team to recover from a 0.01% win expectancy was the 1990 Phillies, who on Aug. 21 at Dodger Stadium, fell behind 11-1 when L.A. exploded for eight runs in the fifth. Philly still trailed by that score after seven, then scored two in the eighth to draw a bit closer. Finally, with help from two Dodgers errors, the visitors put together a nine-run ninth that included John Kruk's game-tying three-run homer and Carmelo Martínez's go-ahead RBI double. The Phillies won, 12-11, becoming the fourth team in history and the only one since 1934 to erase at least an eight-run deficit in the ninth and go on to win, per the Elias Sports Bureau. (The only successful nine-run ninth-inning rally took place way back in 1901, courtesy of the Tigers).
   39. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 16, 2021 at 12:03 AM (#6013739)
At least some percentage of the decision to challenge was based on trying to win the game (vs. trying to break up the no-hitter).
Let's set the over/under at three percent. I'll take the under.
   40. Froot Loops Posted: April 16, 2021 at 12:12 AM (#6013741)
Were you upset that Naylor hustled down the line and dove for first? Was that a "dick move" too?
   41. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 16, 2021 at 12:17 AM (#6013742)
Of course not. I assume you disagree, but there’s a difference between players doing what they have been trained for decades to do in the heat of the moment, and a manager attempting to break up a perfect game by an act of bureaucracy.
   42. Froot Loops Posted: April 16, 2021 at 12:23 AM (#6013743)
I think there's a difference, but I don't think it's reasonable to tell a team "It's OK if you try, just don't try too hard." I don't think there's a bright line between the two.

"Dick moves" are generally the provenance of the team that's up 8-0. Teams that are up big should exercise a modicum of sportsmanship. Teams that are down big, in my opinion, are entitled to do whatever they can to get back in the game.
   43. Cooper Nielson Posted: April 16, 2021 at 02:17 AM (#6013751)
Let's set the over/under at three percent. I'll take the under.

Oddly enough, I think 3% is exactly the number I would have thrown out there. It's low, but it's not zero.

Anyway, this makes it a 97% dick move, which also sounds about right.
   44. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: April 16, 2021 at 03:43 AM (#6013753)
Maybe I'm naive, but I can't believe there are so many people defending the decision to challenge as something other than a dick move. If, as SOSH put earlier, it was an 8-0 three-hitter, I guarantee there's no challenge. I would also take the under on the 3% line. This was, in the most charitable estimation I can give, a 99.93% dick move.

And yes, to those who have asked, there is a difference between Naylor hustling down the line and Francona calling for a replay review.
   45. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: April 16, 2021 at 08:14 AM (#6013758)
A couple years ago I was at a Red Sox-Orioles game. The Sox were getting killed, like 10-1 or something like that and someone hit a ball off the top of the monster in the ninth. Farrell hopped out and immediately challenged saying it was a homer. Teams absolutely would have challenged.
   46. Rally Posted: April 16, 2021 at 08:22 AM (#6013759)
In this game the Angels were down by 7 with one out in the 9th. They won it.
   47. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 16, 2021 at 10:15 AM (#6013766)
"Dick moves" are generally the provenance of the team that's up 8-0. Teams that are up big should exercise a modicum of sportsmanship. Teams that are down big, in my opinion, are entitled to do whatever they can to get back in the game.
So, the second thing in #36, just modified with “if the team is trailing.”
   48. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 16, 2021 at 10:18 AM (#6013767)
In this game the Angels were down by 7 with one out in the 9th. They won it.
No one is arguing that no team has ever come back from that kind of deficit in the history of baseball. Also, there was a perfect game going.
   49. Froot Loops Posted: April 16, 2021 at 10:46 AM (#6013768)
So, the second thing in #36, just modified with “if the team is trailing.”


Yeah, more or less. I don't want to be the one to tell a team that it's their obligation to lose.
   50. sunday silence (again) Posted: April 16, 2021 at 11:05 AM (#6013774)
Saying things that essentially boil down to "nothing (within the rules) that is done to try to win a game can be a dick move, under any circumstances, ever." That's a sort of position, I suppose,.. .


DOesnt that have to be the default position? if such a thing exists (a default position on how to play the game) then isnt that the only response?

but it's more a way of avoiding dealing with any moral complexity or ambiguity...


you seem to have carved out a moral issue here on your own terms but arent there other moral issues?

What if the runner really was safe and replay showed that? would that taint the game if it hadnt been challenged?

What if the runner had a 20 game hitting streak on the line? is that a moral issue?

Finally arent we venturing very much into: "How to play the game the right way territory?"


Isnt this the very thing the vast majority of primates here were railing against some years ago? Challenging the play is legal, and is the height of competitiveness. Not challenging the play as some sort of tribute to Rondon is just weird.


   51. sunday silence (again) Posted: April 16, 2021 at 11:07 AM (#6013775)

And yes, to those who have asked, there is a difference between Naylor hustling down the line and Francona calling for a replay review.


well what's the difference? THE WORLD WAITS
   52. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: April 16, 2021 at 12:56 PM (#6013797)
well what's the difference? THE WORLD WAITS


Do you not think there's a difference? One is in the natural course of the game - it's expected of the player, it's instinctual, it's a heat-of-the-moment reaction to a play. The other is a calculated decision where the one making it has the time and opportunity to consider all of his options and the ramifications thereof.

It's the difference between players throwing a game and the management deciding to tank. Players will always try hard, even if the organization as a whole has made personnel decisions that make it clear they're not really attempting to win.

After thinking about it more, I'll be a little more charitable. I'm willing to say that 3% non-dickishness seems about right, just because maybe Francona is trying to earn a bit of respect from his players by standing up for them, even though I think they all understood the situation. It's still almost entirely a dick move, though.
   53. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: April 16, 2021 at 01:08 PM (#6013798)
Isnt this the very thing the vast majority of primates here were railing against some years ago? Challenging the play is legal, and is the height of competitiveness. Not challenging the play as some sort of tribute to Rondon is just weird.


I don't think it's weird at all - it's a sign of respect and admiration in a game that is, for all practical purposes, no longer competitive. I guarantee there are no-hitters throughout the history of the game where there was a blown call that would have changed the no-hitter status. Nobody remembers those, and nobody would have remembered this one.

Sportsmanship involves a lot of gray areas, and those gray areas ebb and flow depending on what level of sports you're playing. There are very few bright lines. In soccer, when a player is hurt, the team with possession kicks the ball out of bounds. They don't have to do that, just like the other team doesn't have to give them the ball back after the injury stoppage is over. Is it anti-competitive to do something like that?

And yes, this is a completely different situation than that, but that's my point. This stuff is not black and white. Managers make decisions all the time that reflect a willingness to concede in games that are no longer competitive. Granted, most of those decisions purportedly have some future benefit, while this one did not. But in an 8-0 game in the 9th inning, a manager is not making decisions to help his team win that night. With a perfect game on the line, it strikes me as purposefully done to try to stick it to the other team rather than in an attempt to actually win the game.
   54. phredbird Posted: April 16, 2021 at 01:41 PM (#6013810)

i wonder if the divide here is generational.

as one of the silver backs of BBTF i can't believe the pearl-clutchers who are upset with the challenge.

i'm with the 'play to win' bunch, totally. of course cleveland should dispute a close call. you make the guy EARN the no-hitter, even more so a perfect game, and you use all tools at your disposal. one of them nowadays is instant replay.

terry francona would have been ripped a new one by everyone in cleveland if he had let the play stand and it turned out the runner was safe, ESPECIALLY in that circumstance. i would have loved to see the thread here if a story had come out along the lines of 'Replay Shows Ninth-Inning Runner Safe in Perfecto' ...

and there's a big picture aspect to this too. if the runner was safe, now cleveland has a base runner, the inning is extended, they can make the pitcher work more, maybe get a run or two, get into the bullpen, thereby wear down the opposition -- a team they are going to be playing a lot -- so that they don't have arms as fresh the next day etc.

to suggest that there's some kind of courtesy to be extended here is in my opinion ridiculous. it's not a perfect game or no-hitter or shutout or win until the last out. period.

YMMV
   55. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 16, 2021 at 02:41 PM (#6013825)
DOesnt that have to be the default position? if such a thing exists (a default position on how to play the game) then isnt that the only response?
Only if you make the strange choice that any and all context is irrelevant and must be completely ignored.
   56. Froot Loops Posted: April 16, 2021 at 02:59 PM (#6013831)
Do you not think there's a difference? One is in the natural course of the game - it's expected of the player, it's instinctual, it's a heat-of-the-moment reaction to a play. The other is a calculated decision where the one making it has the time and opportunity to consider all of his options and the ramifications thereof.


You know, I bet if the score was 8-0 but the Indians already had a couple of hits, Naylor isn't busting down the line nearly as hard. I guarantee you he went up to the plate not thinking about winning the game but about breaking up the perfect game.
   57. Space Force fan Posted: April 16, 2021 at 08:29 PM (#6013910)
I may be accused of being biased, but I don't see the problem. It is no different than bunting in the 9th inning if the 3B is playing on the grass or hitting opposite field if the shift is on.

I do find it ironic that the establishment of instant replay was largely driven by the mistake in the Galarraga "perfect" game and now people are insisting that it can't be used to determine if another perfect game is legit.

Has anyone considered that Francona was sending the WS a signal? Those two teams and Minnesota could easily be fighting it out for the division title. Playing hard ball this early in the season against one of your main rivals shows them that you are not going to back down and make it easy for them.
   58. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 16, 2021 at 08:44 PM (#6013912)
Has anyone considered that Francona was sending the WS a signal? Those two teams and Minnesota could easily be fighting it out for the division title. Playing hard ball this early in the season against one of your main rivals shows them that you are not going to back down and make it easy for them.
That seems...unlikely, but small and petty if true. Again, 8-0. If it’s 3-0, different story.
   59. Space Force fan Posted: April 16, 2021 at 08:57 PM (#6013913)
Its not a signal if its 3-0.
   60. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 16, 2021 at 09:01 PM (#6013914)
What does “sending a signal” even mean? It’s generally just a BS media narrative, and to the extent that concept might have actually been in Francona or anyone’s mind, it was dumb. It won’t have any effect whatsoever on the actual playing of any games in the future.
   61. depletion Posted: April 17, 2021 at 12:50 PM (#6013977)
I don't get the "game in April" angle. "game in April" <=> "game in late September". I guess I think the challenge was mildly dickish, but fully within the rights, and fair play aspect, of the Indians. No cheap no-hitters out there. Earn it.
Pete Rose on Gene Garber stopping his hitting streak: "He was pitching like it was the 7th game of the World Series."
Gene Garber on Pete Rose on having his hitting streak stopped: "He was hitting like it was the 7th game of the World Series"
   62. Howie Menckel Posted: April 17, 2021 at 01:40 PM (#6013984)
I guarantee there are no-hitters throughout the history of the game where there was a blown call that would have changed the no-hitter status.

and I wondered why my ears were ringing....
   63. Froot Loops Posted: April 17, 2021 at 02:15 PM (#6013990)
Pete Rose on Gene Garber stopping his hitting streak: "He was pitching like it was the 7th game of the World Series."
Gene Garber on Pete Rose on having his hitting streak stopped: "He was hitting like it was the 7th game of the World Series"


Yeah, there's kind of a double standard here, where we're supposed to accept that it's really important to Rodon and the Sox to get the perfect game, but the Indians are supposed to just acquiesce to it, as if it's not embarrassing for them to get perfect gamed, or if it doesn't fire up their competitive juices to try to end the perfect game.

   64. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 17, 2021 at 02:19 PM (#6013992)
No, that’s why it’s totally understandable for Naylor to try to beat it out, for example. You don’t expect the players to quit trying. But a challenge by the manager is in a different category.
   65. Froot Loops Posted: April 17, 2021 at 02:32 PM (#6013994)
But if the situation had been reversed - Naylor was called safe, and LaRussa was the one to challenge - no one would have complained. No one would have said, "But it's 8-0! Why are you challenging?" No one would have put that in a different category.

That's what I mean by a double standard. Whatever weapons are available to the team trying to complete the perfect game should be available to the team trying to end it.

I think we've beaten this into the ground, so let me just end by saying I'm really glad Rodon got his no-hitter, and I'm really glad that there's absolutely no doubt as to its legitimacy.
   66. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 17, 2021 at 02:35 PM (#6013995)
You don’t expect the players to quit trying. But a challenge by the manager is in a different category.


Why is it okay for the manager to quit trying but not for the players? Aren't they part of the same team? Don't they share the same goals?

If instead of the manager calling for replay, it was established that only a player on the field of play could call for one, would it be dickish for a player to make the challenge?
   67. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 17, 2021 at 02:49 PM (#6013998)
The challenge is the dividing line (manager or player). Give it your best effort on the play, but if you’re called out, accept it and don’t be a twerp.

And of course it’s a different standard for preserving a perfect game rather than trying to ruin it.
   68. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 17, 2021 at 02:52 PM (#6013999)
And if replay showed he was clearly safe, and they didn't challenge, how would you feel about the perfecto?
   69. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 17, 2021 at 02:56 PM (#6014000)
See post 7. It’s still a dick move - the perfect game holding up to scrutiny is a separate issue.
   70. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: April 17, 2021 at 03:01 PM (#6014003)
I'm not talking about the Indian's motivation. I'm asking how you personally would feel.

And when would it not be a dick move? What if it's the last game of the season and the batter needs a hit to win the batting title? Or a hit bat .400?
   71. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 17, 2021 at 03:08 PM (#6014004)
I dunno. Probably that there was some sort of asterisk, but not at the Howie level of holding onto it for years? But I also don’t think it would be a dick move (or at least nearly as much of one) if the replay clearly showed he was obviously safe. Here, it plainly didn’t - so Francona was trying to ruin a perfect game by hoping he could “steal” a call on replay.
   72. Ron J Posted: April 17, 2021 at 03:11 PM (#6014005)
#67 Why?

Or to put it another way, if I were running a team I'd at least consider firing any manager who didn't challenge a call that there was a chance of overturning. (To be clear, it's not close to a firing offense. But it earns "firing points") Rodon's interests are immaterial to Cleveland.
   73. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 17, 2021 at 03:14 PM (#6014006)
And I think it’s a dick move not to give any consideration whatsoever to the interests of a guy who’s pitching a perfect game when you’re down 8-0 in the ninth. Not so much consideration that you stop trying, of course, but you at least don’t go out of your way to ruin it for him on a call. At that point, it’s crossed the line from competitiveness to just being a jerk to your opponent because he’s your opponent.
   74. SoSH U at work Posted: April 17, 2021 at 03:17 PM (#6014008)
Or to put it another way, if I were running a team I'd at least consider firing any manager who didn't challenge a call that there was a chance of overturning.


Even if you're trailing 18-1 in the ninth? Or leading 17-2 in the ninth?

I would not want my manager challenging in either situation, but particularly not the latter.
   75. Howie Menckel Posted: April 17, 2021 at 04:06 PM (#6014017)
Probably that there was some sort of asterisk, but not at the Howie level of holding onto it for years?

I feel seen
   76. Ron J Posted: April 17, 2021 at 05:07 PM (#6014036)
#74 Why? I'm in for a miracle. I'd be upset if he did something risky. I would be fine if he took out injury insurance -- pull the regulars or whatever. But what's the downside of a challenge?

If he tells me he didn't want to annoy the umpires I'd respect that. That's part of his job. But I would ask.

And yeah SoSH. An awful lot of the most successful managers can be dicks because their concerns are solely balancing the long and short term interests of the team.

   77. SoSH U at work Posted: April 17, 2021 at 05:15 PM (#6014037)
But what's the downside of a challenge?


Your leadoff hitter breaks his hand the following night when the opposing pitcher drills him. Because the primary interest of every participant in the ninth inning of an 18-1 game is getting the damn thing over, and calling for a challenge will not do that, but annoy members from the opposing nine (baseball players being an easily annoyed lot). The manager that challenges a call in the final innings of a long-since-decided game is making it likely that one of his players is hit, either that day or in subsequent days.
   78. Jobu is silent on the changeup Posted: April 19, 2021 at 10:02 AM (#6014233)
I fall on the "not a dick move" side of this. 8-run comebacks are exceedingly rare, but they generally start with getting a couple baserunners.

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