BBTF's Newsblog Discussion :: Tangotiger: Who is the most fun player in MLB, outside of Ohtani?

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Wednesday, February 22, 2023

Tangotiger: Who is the most fun player in MLB, outside of Ohtani?

Based on these polls, this is what I found:

Poll #2: 17.5 singles = 12.5 strikeouts, or singles valued at 1.4X the strikeout. That’s less than its intrinsic run value.

Poll #3: 15 SO = 5 walks, or strikeouts valued at 3X the walk. Fans really don’t like walks.

Poll #4: Fans FAR prefer 3 doubles and 1 out to 4 singles.

Poll #5: Fans somewhat prefer 4 triples to 3 HR and 1 out.

Poll #1: Fans somewhat prefer doubles to steals

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 22, 2023 at 09:17 AM | 103 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: fun, shohei ohtani

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1. DL from MN Posted: February 22, 2023 at 11:06 AM (#6118157)

Agreed - Jazz Chisholm is fun to watch.

Defense is fun for me to watch, that isn't covered here. Looking at the list Byron Buxton is in the top 10 for offensive fun and he's definitely fun to watch on defense.

2. The Duke Posted: February 22, 2023 at 11:51 AM (#6118163)

You tend to be biased towards the people you see a lot. I loved watching Jeff Kemp because he hit the ball so hard. Freeman is up there for me. Arenado for the defense and his Rodney dangerfield routine at the plate. Kung fu panda. Stanton and Sheffield were high on my list. Bo Jackson. I used to love to watch Vince Coleman and Willie McGee. Fred Lynn, Reggie Jackson, Joe Morgan. Willie McCovey, Stargell and Parker. Rick Ankiel for his OF throws. Dave Kingman. Keith Hernandez. Carlton Fisk and yadier molina. Eric Davis was high on my list

3. kcgard2 Posted: February 22, 2023 at 12:12 PM (#6118166)

Guys who were fun to watch all over the diamond: Rickey, Griffey Jr., Nomah, Raul Mondesi
Guys who were fun to watch at the plate: Boggs, Votto, Chipper, Manny
Guys who were fun to watch in the field: Jack Wilson, Rey Ordonez, Andruw, Brandon Phillips

But what about the pitchers? I was a pitcher, some of my favorites to watch were Maddux (easily), Big Unit, Jack McDowell. Wakefield and Candiotti and Sparks were fun because how can watching knuckleballers not be fun (whatever else you might say about it, the novelty is fun).

These lists are far from complete.

4. kcgard2 Posted: February 22, 2023 at 12:24 PM (#6118169)

I guess the thing I go for at the plate is: RH, deep stance, power to all fields, high average hitters. Almost stationary core through the swing - quiet mechanics. You really have to narrow it down to what type is your thing otherwise there's dozens or hundreds of hitters you could list. That style gives me Bagwell, Mike Sweeney, Magglio, Pujols. If they just crouched a bit more Manny and Miggy would qualify. Yeah, this represents the hitting style that speaks to my baseball aesthetic taste :)

5. rickey steals third person Posted: February 22, 2023 at 12:44 PM (#6118171)

Rickey! El Mago, Maddux, Bonds, Lindor, Ozzie Smith, Contreras, randy johnson, pedro, thor...

6. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: February 22, 2023 at 12:55 PM (#6118173)

Obviously it is absurd to credit strikeouts with fun points. Poll #3 is kind of a bad way to come up with that assumption.

7. gehrig97 Posted: February 22, 2023 at 01:43 PM (#6118180)

Most fun all-time? Rickey will need to ponder this before Rickey gives his answer. Rickey is just kidding! The answer is Rickey.

Current players who are a lot of fun to watch: Nestor Cortes, Zack Greinke, and... ummm... man. Pitching sure is awful to watch these days, isn't it?

8. Adam Starblind Posted: February 22, 2023 at 02:03 PM (#6118183)

@4 Sounds like Piazza too.

9. Booey Posted: February 22, 2023 at 02:15 PM (#6118187)

Trea Turner is one of my favorite active players. He hits .300! And steals bases! Both exciting things that analytics has basically killed. Very few players do either anymore, let alone both. He's a throwback middle infielder in the Jeter/Alomar mold.

Plus his slide is a thing of beauty.

10. The Duke Posted: February 22, 2023 at 02:15 PM (#6118188)

Anyone up for a quiz? BBREF has a table of most games played without a World Series appearance. The top 10 all time include 6 hall of famers. And who is the current active leader?

11. Booey Posted: February 22, 2023 at 02:30 PM (#6118190)

Most fun pitchers to watch - Definitely prime Pedro and Randy Johnson. Pure dominance. Maddux and Clemens and a couple others may have gotten similar results, but they just didn't look quite as unhittable to me.

Favorite batters to watch at the plate (no particular order):

Beautiful, textbook perfect swings - Griffey Jr, Palmeiro, Harper, Judge

McGwire - Best homerun swing

Roid Barry - So simplistic, yet so effective. No wasted movement. Hitting broken down to the basics.

Thome - Loved the bat point and the violent, corkscrew uppercut swing! Looked like he'd tear a muscle in his back every time he missed.

Manny Ramirez - So effortless. Looked just like a lazy wave of the bat, but obviously you can't argue with the results.

Bagwell - So ugly it was beautiful. Pujols had sort of a less exaggerated version.

Sheffield - The menacing bat waggle made him look like one of the most intimidating hitters at the plate, despite being one of the smallest major power hitters of his era.

Nomar - The quirky routine was epic.

Piazza - No leg kick at all! Pure upper body power.

Least beautiful super effective swing - Frank Thomas. Obviously the results speak for themselves, but the Big Hurt's swing always looked clunky and awkward to me.

12. Walt Davis Posted: February 22, 2023 at 02:31 PM (#6118191)

I was gonna say ... who are the most memorable "fun" players of the last 50 years or so? Fidrych, Fernando, Ryan, Tiant, El Duque, Niekro, Pedro (much more "fun" than Maddux and I love Maddux), Ohtani, various wacky relievers ... and Rickey and Mookie because of his 300 game. Yes I'm overselling the point but pitchers can be weird or dominant or 45 years old. Larry Walker might get the fun points but he never swaps over to the wrong side if not for the Unit.** Pitchers are very under-represented in this metric.

Sammy Sosa was a lot of fun.

** Walker vs Unit in real games: 393/485/571

13. Walt Davis Posted: February 22, 2023 at 02:33 PM (#6118192)

#10: I assume Ernie is still #1. Santo might still make the top 10. If they do one for pitchers, Fergie is probably high up (he was on a Red Sox team that made it but he was hurt, didn't play).

EDIT: I checked but Kessinger is also over 2000 games with no postseason appearances.
EDIT2: I was gonna guess Kurt Suzuki as the active leader but he made the WS in 2019 with the Nats.

14. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 22, 2023 at 02:50 PM (#6118193)

I'll guess my namesake. How close is Mike Trout?

15. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 22, 2023 at 02:53 PM (#6118194)

Here's some names not mentioned yet:

Most fun player from my childhood: probably Eric Davis or Darryl Strawberry or Kirby Puckett
Most fun player from my adolescence: Kenny Lofton, Roberto Alomar
Most fun player of my 20s: Ichiro by a mile
Most fun player of my adulthood: I still like Bryce Harper, come at me.

16. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: February 22, 2023 at 02:58 PM (#6118196)

I think the two most fun players to watch, by far, in my lifetime were Rickey Henderson and Pedro Martinez.

Trying to describe Rickey to somebody who wasn't around in the 1980s is tough to do well. Early in his career, you'd hear people put others in his category because of the stolen bases, guys like Ron LeFlore or Omar Moreno or something. The only guy remotely like him was Tim Raines, who happened to be a contemporary. But then add the swagger; the unique batting stance; the way he slid into the bases; the flare for the dramatic. He led the league in stolen bases for Oakland as a 21-year-old (with 117 walks)...and a 39-year-old (with 188 walks)! He was from Oakland, born on Christmas Day 1959, and he kept ending up back in Oakland to play baseball. Super smart, kept figuring out ways to get better. Then, when he physically clearly was in decline, he figured out ways to retain enough value to keep playing well into his 40s.

And Pedro? Peak-of-his-powers Pedro in Boston was the closest thing I've ever seen in my 40+ years of being a baseball fan of watching a region just stop what they were doing to watch a regular season game like it was an NFL game. 1999-2000 Pedro, in particular, was so uniquely captivating - not just dominant, but hypnotically captivating - that people would literally plan their schedules around Pedro's next start. It'd be a July weeknight, and you'd go to a neighborhood bar in Brighton or Somerville, and the bar would be filled with people focused on the TV, watching the 4th inning of a game against Minnesota or KC or something in rapt attention, so long as Pedro was pitching.

During the McGwire/Sosa HR chase, you'd see some of that at a local bar, but only when the record-chaser was coming up. Then, everybody would be quiet for a few minutes to see if a HR would be hit. But with Pedro, he could keep your attention for the better part of three hours, no records or pennant on the line. Just pure charisma, talent, bulldog competitiveness, and smarts, wrapped into one person.

17. Booey Posted: February 22, 2023 at 03:08 PM (#6118199)

It's a crime against humanity that we've gone 16 posts (including 2 of my own!) without mentioning Vlad Sr as one of the most fun players to watch. Unforgivable oversight. Vlad ruled, end of discussion.

18. vortex of dissipation Posted: February 22, 2023 at 03:11 PM (#6118201)

Most fun player ever, to me - Ichiro. The way he would step out of the batter's box, look at the defense, and then drop a hit wherever they weren't playing him. The way he would steal third standing up. The way he would line up in right field waiting to catch a fly ball, and you knew that if the runner went, he was going to be out. The stretching, and that wonderful routine he'd do with his bat before every pitch. The Ringo Sheena songs he'd use as at-bat music...

19. Der-K's enjoying the new boygenius album. Posted: February 22, 2023 at 03:25 PM (#6118203)

The players who are the most fun are rarely the best ones, they're the weirdos. (Rickey and Ichiro are exceptions, but they're also weirdos. Same for Greinke.) Arms who throw as hard as they can and don't take the time to figure out how to follow through, like Mitch Williams. Or max out at 86 but utilize a zillion arm angles and pitches, like El Duque. Or any and all submariners. Or, not that we get to see them much, switch pitchers (we're going to be talking about Jurrangelo Cijntje some day.)
Position player-wise, it's the same sort of deal. My favorite guy of the last decade or so was/is (he'll be in NPB this year) Willians Astudillo. Short, squat, slow. Swings everything, makes contact anyway. Plays super hard, looks kind of ridiculous. Plays all over the field, including at positions he has no business being at. When he plays, my eyes go to him.

It's one of the best things about baseball - there's so many pathways to usefulness and yet, every once in awhile, some guy finds a path not often taken.

20. A triple short of the cycle

Posted: February 22, 2023 at 03:43 PM (#6118206)

Shout out to Rick Dempsey.

21. Der-K's enjoying the new boygenius album. Posted: February 22, 2023 at 04:20 PM (#6118209)

certainly during rain delays!

22. Darren

Posted: February 22, 2023 at 04:32 PM (#6118211)

Current players: Mookie is pretty darn fun, and though I haven't seen much of Trea Turner, I bet he's a blast too. The players who can do everything, especially speed and defense are what do it for me.

23. The Duke Posted: February 22, 2023 at 05:10 PM (#6118215)

Kessinger, santo, not on top 10 list. I was going for position players but they have a list for pitchers too. Fergie is not on it. There are two hall of famers and one should remember relief pitchers. Jenkins is not on the list

Position players based on games played
Pitchers based on games pitched

Mike Trout is not the active leader

24. cardsfanboy

Posted: February 22, 2023 at 06:05 PM (#6118218)

Anyone up for a quiz? BBREF has a table of most games played without a World Series appearance. The top 10 all time include 6 hall of famers. And who is the current active leader?

I haven't looked at him yet, but my initial guess for active leader is McCutchen... looking it up, he hasn't made a WS appearance, not sure where he ranks, but I can't think of anyone with more games than him who hasn't.

Edit: After cheating, the active leader is kinda obvious.

25. Booey Posted: February 22, 2023 at 06:07 PM (#6118219)

Amongst active players, Votto has got to be above Trout...

(Mentioned first by Votto himself in #14, but never answered)

26. Booey Posted: February 22, 2023 at 06:10 PM (#6118220)

Duke - Griffey Jr has to be on that list, right?

27. John Northey Posted: February 22, 2023 at 06:24 PM (#6118226)

To me uniqueness is fun. As a kid I loved to watch Garth Iorg hit even if he didn't do it well. Dan Quisenberry was fun to watch pitch. As much as I hated him, gotta admit Rickey Henderson was a ton of fun to watch play too. Lots of great stuff back in the 80's. We need more variations now - part of the love for guys like Alejandro Kirk. I really want knuckleball pitchers to return in force someday too.

28. Walt Davis Posted: February 22, 2023 at 06:33 PM (#6118227)

Pitchers based on games pitched

Which would bias things towards relievers. Ignoring WS criteria, the first SP on the most games list is Cy Young at #25. David Weathers is in the top 20 all-time in games pitched. (OK, Eck is at #5 if you want to count him.) Games pitched is just a moronic criterion for something like this.

29. DL from MN Posted: February 22, 2023 at 06:49 PM (#6118232)

I agree with Lindor, he's one of my favorite players not on the Twins.

30. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: February 22, 2023 at 06:50 PM (#6118233)

Tony Gwynn and Vlad Guerrero Sr. Mike Trout is incredibly fun to watch (well, he was - the latter day version who doesn't steal bases or dive in the outfield isn't quite as fun).

31. Hombre Brotani

Posted: February 22, 2023 at 07:05 PM (#6118234)

I really enjoy guys who feel free to show how much fun they're having -- none of that "act like you've been there before" noise. I loved watching Bobby Grich throw himself all over the diamond, running hard, getting dirty going, volcanic either with joy or fury. Among active players, Bryce Harper comes to mind. Mookie Betts. Miguel Cabrera. Tim Anderson. Trout.

32. The Duke Posted: February 22, 2023 at 07:13 PM (#6118235)

Votto is correct (Cutchbis just behind him )
Ken Griffey Jr is correct

33. Howie Menckel Posted: February 22, 2023 at 07:19 PM (#6118237)

2021 Lindor = NOT fun
2022 Lindor = fun

Nimmo is goofy fun, complete with the Pete "Charlie Hustle" Rose sprint to first base after a walk.

McNeil is fun a la Post 18 - he noticeably checks out the defensive alignment just before entering the batter's box to guide his swing decisions and he rarely strikes out; toughest in NL to whiff in 2022. plus he rarely HRs or walks. bottom line, he's probably going to hit the ball and a fielder is going to have to chase after it.

34. The Mighty Quintana Posted: February 22, 2023 at 08:01 PM (#6118241)

My fun list:
Little guys who hit everything hard:
Jose Altuve, Bo Bichette, Mookie Betts
Tall guys who can move:
Oneil Cruz, Julio Rodriguez, Vaughn Grissom
The Natural:
Gunnar Henderson
Short pitchers who bring it:
Dylan Cease, Spencer Strider
Old glove guys who can still sling it around:
Kevin Kiermeier, Brandon Crawford

35. cardsfanboy

Posted: February 22, 2023 at 09:09 PM (#6118246)

The only small issue with this list is that it doesn't account for fielding, so you are missing out on dominant fielders that are worth watching. Baez and his magical glove alone makes me want to watch him and he throws a lot of personality in the way he does it. Edmonds among others do a flair for the dramatic on the field, and every time someone tries to steal on Yadi it is fun... mind you, defense you can't predict but when you have Ozzie/Mays/Vizquel/Machado out there, a viewer is pretty much assured something is going to happen worth remembering in every few games.

36. cardsfanboy

Posted: February 22, 2023 at 09:12 PM (#6118247)

Which would bias things towards relievers. Ignoring WS criteria, the first SP on the most games list is Cy Young at #25. David Weathers is in the top 20 all-time in games pitched. (OK, Eck is at #5 if you want to count him.) Games pitched is just a moronic criterion for something like this.

yea, I think I would prefer it to be innings pitched as the criteria, games just doesn't really give the elite names you will get on the list as innings pitched, and somewhat a point of these lists is to have familiar names on there. With the expanded playoffs now it is probably going to be interesting to see who has most games played (career starting after 1990) who have never appeared in the post season. Although it's probable that with so many post seasons games, that the names will not be that interesting, so it's a toss up...

37. BDC

Posted: February 22, 2023 at 09:22 PM (#6118248)

With the exception of Quintana in #34, people have tended to answer the question "Who Is?" with the names of guys who have been retired for a while.

This either means that everything was more fun when we were younger. Or perhaps that styles of play are getting more homogeneous all the time. Every pitcher throws hard fastballs that move, every hitter takes a bunch of pitches and then goes launch-angle or strikes out, and there aren't many balls in play to field. They're good but none of them stand out.

Of course people were probably saying the same thing in the 1960s, they don't make 'em like Sibby Sisti anymore, etc.

The 2022 Rangers outfield was fun to watch at times … though I have to admit I don't entirely remember who these guys were.

38. SoSH U at work Posted: February 22, 2023 at 09:28 PM (#6118249)

I'm kind of surprised to see Tango is still Tigering.

As for fun players, I loved watching prime Johnny Cueto pitch.

39. The Duke Posted: February 22, 2023 at 09:46 PM (#6118250)

36. The list on pitchers is filled with relievers but the two full time starters are the two biggest names in the Hall. Phil Niekro and Gaylord Perry

40. cardsfanboy

Posted: February 22, 2023 at 09:46 PM (#6118251)

Most fun player of my adulthood: I still like Bryce Harper, come at me.

How can someone not like Bryce Harper? I put him with Machado in the category of people who are somewhat unfairly disliked, or Beltre who are guys who act in a beat to a different drummer. Harper's only flaw is because of peoples expectations towards him, and it created a ton of pre-judgement.

Current players who are a lot of fun to watch: Nestor Cortes, Zack Greinke, and... ummm... man. Pitching sure is awful to watch these days, isn't it

It's not that it's awful, it's just that it's generic, every team has two or more guys throwing 100 mph who aren't consistent enough to be the closer for multiple seasons. The fun aspect is either the surgical precision of a Maddux or the dominance of a Ryan/Johnson or both with a Pedro. Nobody is really going out of their way to watch a reliever. At the same time a peak Thor or Kershaw was worth a watch.

41. Booey Posted: February 22, 2023 at 10:05 PM (#6118252)

#37 - The homogenization of the game is a big part of it for me, yes. Now that analytics has definitively proven that there is one and only one correct way to produce maximum value and everyone and their mother has eschewed batting average and stolen bases in favor of increasing their launch angle and swinging for the fences on every pitch - strikeouts be damned - most players (both their approach and their statlines) have started to look awfully similar. I miss the days when speedsters (Raines, Lofton), high power .270 hitters (McGwire, Thome), and low power .350 hitters (Boggs, Gwynn, Ichiro) - plus the guys in-between who'd hit .320 with 18 homers and 30 stolen bases (Jeter, Alomar, Molitor) - would all produce the same value with vastly different approaches. That's why I like the rare Trea Turner types who still do old school things.

42. Booey Posted: February 22, 2023 at 10:17 PM (#6118254)

And of course, active players are getting the shaft from the get-go when possibly the most exciting player in my lifetime (Ohtani) is excluded right in the articles headline...

43. cardsfanboy

Posted: February 22, 2023 at 10:27 PM (#6118256)

#37 - The homogenization of the game is a big part of it for me, yes. Now that analytics has definitively proven that there is one and only one correct way to produce maximum value and everyone and their mother has eschewed batting average and stolen bases in favor of increasing their launch angle and swinging for the fences on every pitch - strikeouts be damned - most players (both their approach and their statlines) have started to look awfully similar. I miss the days when speedsters (Raines, Lofton), high power .270 hitters (McGwire, Thome), and low power .350 hitters (Boggs, Gwynn, Ichiro) - plus the guys in-between who'd hit .320 with 18 homers and 30 stolen bases (Jeter, Alomar, Molitor) - would all produce the same value with vastly different approaches. That's why I like the rare Trea Turner types who still do old school things.

It's kinda funny in a way, we have preached that the all around player was underrated in the past, the Bobby Grich's, Trammels etc, but now more and more players are becoming all around, even the MVP types. I mean Goldy isn't Hernandez on the field, but he's quite good, nor is he Frank Thomas at the bat but he's good enough. The one skill that is really missing with the modern guys is the batting average dominance, as you mentioned the Boggs or Gwynn's or Puckett of the world. Base running has also taken a hit, but we've seen some guys have a few years doing that well enough (obviously Billy Hamilton) to merit a watch, but there really isn't a Gwynn or Ichiro equivalent out there right now. I fully understand that there is a cycle to things, but at the same time it feels to me that we are less likely to see a .350 avg season going forward than a 50 hr season. (and I don't count LeMathieus .364 in 2020 in that discussion-- last time we had a .350 season was 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2004, 2003... since then we have had 50 hr seasons in 2022, 2019, 2017, 2013, 2010. )

44. Russlan is not Russian Posted: February 22, 2023 at 11:47 PM (#6118258)

Jose Reyes was a lot of fun to watch in his prime.

45. Cooper Nielson Posted: February 23, 2023 at 12:04 AM (#6118259)

I don't think Dontrelle Willis has been mentioned. Pitchers who can hit are always fun, and he was fun to watch on the mound too.

46. Booey Posted: February 23, 2023 at 12:22 AM (#6118260)

It's kinda funny in a way, we have preached that the all around player was underrated in the past, the Bobby Grich's, Trammels etc, but now more and more players are becoming all around, even the MVP types.

For the most part, yeah, although with the overall rise in homers, no one is going to reach 70 WAR with only 185 (Trammell), 224 (Grich), or 244 (Whitaker) homeruns anymore. The current all around stars - the new Trammell/Whitaker/Grich types - say, Jose Ramirez, Carlos Correa, and Francisco Lindor - are all going to top 300 HR. So even their greatness won't be THAT obscure to the casual/old school fans and voters.

there really isn't a Gwynn or Ichiro equivalent out there right now. I fully understand that there is a cycle to things, but at the same time it feels to me that we are less likely to see a .350 avg season going forward than a 50 hr season.

Yep. None of us are old enough to have seen a .400 season, of course, but growing up in the 80's and 90's it at least still felt remotely possible, with Carew hitting .388 in 1977, Brett hitting .390 in 1980, and Gwynn hitting .394 in 1994. Plus several others who eventually tailed off but were still hitting .400 or very close to it at the All Star break (Galarraga and Olerud in 1993, Walker and Gwynn in 1997, Helton and Nomar in 2000, etc).

Luis Arraez is a fun player and probably the closest we have now to a Gwynn or Ichiro, but while he might've hit .350 too if he'd played in the 1990's/2000's, if you're going to win batting titles with no power, hitting just .316 feels a bit "meh".

47. Booey Posted: February 23, 2023 at 12:24 AM (#6118261)

Not so much anymore (k, not at all anymore), but Madison Bumgarner was really fun in his prime, both at the plate during the regular season and on the mound in the postseason.

#45 - Good hitting pitchers is another sliver of excitement we've lost with the current game (other than Ohtani).

48. Walt Davis Posted: February 23, 2023 at 01:40 AM (#6118265)

There's "fun to watch play" and there's "fun" I suppose and we're mostly going for "fun to watch play." But Jose Cardenal was fun, at least with the Cubs don't know about other teams. Jay Johnstone was fun (though not as funny as he tried to be). The PH specialists were always sorta "fun" so a shout out to Manny Mota. I didn't get a chance to see much of him but Clemente was pretty amazing as was the young Cedeno. I assume Mays was doubly amazing but he was an old man and a legend by the time I got into baseball. Watching Yaz masterfully play the wall was always fun. His fundamentals were atrocious but Dunston was a fun, energetic guy, a bit like watching a puppy play MLB.

This either means that everything was more fun when we were younger.

Most of us are old enough we haven't had actual fun in 30 years. Now get off my lawn and edge yours!

Baez obvsiously but he's already been mentioned by many. Oneil Cruz has some fun potential. There's wonderful entertainment value in Dan Vogelbach, at least for a gentleman of my stature. Votto is a pretty funny guy. Buxton might be massively fun if he can just stay healthy for once. I had high hopes for Wander Franco but he seems to have settled into boringly good not OMG good but I think he's still just 17 so there's hope.

I suppose the lack of adventurous baserunning has also deprived us of those great Barfield, Dawson, Clemente, etc. throws. If there's a current famous gun in RF these days, I can't think of who it is.

The causal structure is complicated but this all goes back to the death of the good nickname!

49. Doug Jones threw harder than me Posted: February 23, 2023 at 10:41 AM (#6118279)

Of course players "are fun" when they are interesting, and some of that "interesting" is more interesting in your childhood.

So, Kingman, Garvey, Tommy John, Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy, Ron Cey, Bill Russell (because he so often just got completely fooled by a pitch), Rickey, Ron Guidry, Goose Gossage, Kent Tekulve, Pete Rose, Fernando Valenzuela, Nolan Ryan, Jerry Reuss, Burt Hooton, Dave Stewart, Jose Canseco, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, Phil and Joe Niekro, Charlie Hough, Rusty Staub, Tony Gwynn, Wade Boggs, Rod Carew, Ozzie Smith, Steve Yeager, Dave Winfield, Willie Randolph, Graig Nettles, Mike Flanagan, Jim Palmer, Rick Reuschel, Mike Torrez, Bob Knepper, .....

Later day players - Ichiro, Khris Davis in his 0.247 BA years, Rajai Davis, Coco Crisp, R.A. Dickey, Tyler Rogers, Brad Ziegler and other submariners, Mark Gardner because he was just getting by on guile and that's always interesting, Barry Zito, likewise, Hideki Matsui, .....

50. DCA Posted: February 23, 2023 at 10:46 AM (#6118280)

When I was a kid, the guy that we all emulated hitting was Julio Franco. Wiggle is awesome. Rickey with the extreme crouch was also up there. That these guys can also hit line drives all over the park and run and field and play until they are 50+ is also fun.

Pitching the guy to imitate was Orel Hershiser. Nothing special but just so clean. Unusual deliveries are fun too. Fernando! I liked Mussina's dipping bird. Sublime pitches are fun too. Young Barry Zito's curve would buckle my knees watching from the couch. I never got to see peak Blyleven but I assume it was similar.

51. Cris E Posted: February 23, 2023 at 11:03 AM (#6118282)

I love a Byron Buxton at bat. Anything can happen: home run, leg out a double, triple, infield errors forced by his raw speed. He's lightning on the bases: in AA he tagged up from second and scored on a lazy fly to center field. In the field he goes places he shouldn't at speeds that make you shake your head. Plus he plays with great joy. He's my favorite player in ages.

EDIT: Pitchers that were fun include Luis Tiant turning his back, Machichel's foot over his head, any knuckleballer ever, Rod Beck throwing that soft spreadable cheese down the middle and daring guys to swing at it. New mechanics have wrung a lot of variation in motions from players as they approach optimal performance, and while 95mph is cool and certainly effective, it's not as fun.

52. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 23, 2023 at 11:22 AM (#6118287)

When I was a kid, the guy that we all emulated hitting was Julio Franco. Wiggle is awesome.

Tony Phillips was another one for my backyard wiffle ball games.

Ozzie Albies is another current player that I thought of last night after hearing the Braves spring training report. Acuna to some extent, but he seems to have gotten more risk averse since he had some injuries.

53. Cris E Posted: February 23, 2023 at 11:53 AM (#6118294)

Tim Lincecum was fun when he came up.

54. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 23, 2023 at 12:02 PM (#6118298)

RE: the most games with no WS, has Ichiro been mentioned?

55. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: February 23, 2023 at 12:21 PM (#6118303)

First two categories weighted by number of times I've seen them.

Current player: The 2022 Judge

Players I saw in person: The pre-1957 Mantle; the post-Korea Ted Williams

Players I wish I'd seen: Ty Cobb; Babe Ruth; The pre-injury Dizzy Dean; Satchel Paige in his prime; Jackie Robinson up through 1951

56. The Duke Posted: February 23, 2023 at 12:35 PM (#6118307)

Griffey Jr is #2 on the list and ichiro was #3. Correct guess!

Two of the top 10 were mentioned as "fun" players above

Walt also got Ernie Banks, which I missed but he comes in at #5 on the list.

three more Cubs in top10 but only one of them known for being a Cub including the number 1 position (hint: not a hall of Famer but should be).

57. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 23, 2023 at 12:37 PM (#6118308)

Baines?

58. Cowboy Popup Posted: February 23, 2023 at 12:58 PM (#6118310)

Young Trout was literally stop what you're doing and watch on both sides of the ball. Young Harper was too, I haven't seen him much in Philly. Clayton Kershaw, when healthy, was one of the only reasons I watched baseball for a few years.

I really like watching Jeff McNeil hit, probably for the reasons articulated in #41 by Booey. O'neil Cruzes highlights are awesome, although I can't imagine actually watching Pirates games.

Yordan Alvarez is a guy I will figure out when he's hitting so I make sure I've got eyes on the screen. I try to watch Shane Mclanahan and the Brewers aces when I can. Ks are boring for relievers, IMO, but when starters are mowing guys down I am entranced. Severino is a hoot too, even if he isn't a dominant force any more.

I think the data we have available makes it even easier to identify fun players/guys who fit your aesthetic. You can figure out who is actually the fastest, who actually has the strongest arm, who actually hits the ball the hardest, who has the sharpest breaking ball. And also that Jeff McNeil does none of those things particularly and is still a fantastic ballplayer some how. I don't watch much baseball any more but there are definitely players who still make it worth sitting through the commercials, the lack of contact, and the excruciating pace of play.

59. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 23, 2023 at 01:00 PM (#6118312)

three more Cubs in top10 but only one of them known for being a Cub including the number 1 position (hint: not a hall of Famer but should be).

Dawson, Palmeiro, Sandberg.

60. The Duke Posted: February 23, 2023 at 01:09 PM (#6118314)

Baines was in 1990 series. Sandburg is a good guess but not in top 10.

Palmeiro is number 1. Dawson is #4

So 1-5 have been identified

Three hall of famers still in the next 5

61. The Honorable Ardo Posted: February 23, 2023 at 01:12 PM (#6118315)

I get to see #17 on Tango's list every day during the season. He's much more fun, though, when his on-base percentage is > .300.

62. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 23, 2023 at 01:19 PM (#6118319)

Billy Williams, Luke Appling, Frank Thomas. Figure you can't go wrong with Chicago players.

63. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 23, 2023 at 01:21 PM (#6118320)

Rod Carew.

64. vortex of dissipation Posted: February 23, 2023 at 01:21 PM (#6118321)

Ichiro did play in two Japan Series - not quite World Series, but the equivalent in NPB.

65. You can keep your massive haul Posted: February 23, 2023 at 01:27 PM (#6118322)

Only going to rank guys I have watched and definitely biased to who I have watched more of.

Early Childhood: Canseco, Rickey! Dave Stewart, Eck, McGwire (that HR derby in Boston was crazy)
Teenage - 20's: Bonds, Vlad Sr., Cespedes, Zito, Gagne, Halladay
Current: Ramon Laureano, Liam Hendriks, Kershaw.

Also guys with insane pitches: Devin Williams, Aroldis Chapman in his prime, Wakefield and all knucklers, Unit etc.

66. cardsfanboy

Posted: February 23, 2023 at 01:44 PM (#6118324)

Yordan Alvarez is a guy I will figure out when he's hitting so I make sure I've got eyes on the screen.

I was reading some article and they talked about how dominant Alvarez's bat is, he's in the 100th percentile in pretty much every contact measurement (exit velocity, hard hit percent etc.) so he's obviously a guy that is fun to watch, if you know anything about him.

I really like watching Jeff McNeil hit

When I was trying to think of guys who might post a high average going forward, the only two names that felt right to me was Arraez and McNeil. (I think age has caught up to Altuve) I'm sure I'm missing people, but those are really the only two that seem young enough and consistent enough to put forth predictable .300+ seasons.

67. Hombre Brotani

Posted: February 23, 2023 at 02:01 PM (#6118325)

Rod Carew.

Sir Rodney's batting stance was the one I had the misfortune of emulating in my youth. Only Carew was Carew enough to hit like that. (I have never learned to hit.)

68. You can keep your massive haul Posted: February 23, 2023 at 02:02 PM (#6118326)

#66 I think Wander Franco could be a guy with .330 seasons in his future. At 21 years old he was 98% whiff percentile, 96% in xBA and 99% in K%

69. Booey Posted: February 23, 2023 at 02:40 PM (#6118337)

#66 - BRef shows there's only 5 active players (minimum 3000 PA's) left with career .300 averages, and one of them will probably never see MLB action action (Cano), and another (Cabrera) has already said he's retiring after this coming season.

.308 - Miguel Cabrera
.307 - Jose Altuve
.303 - Mike Trout
.302 - Trea Turner
.301 - Robinson Cano

Since Altuve, Trout, and Turner look very likely to lose their .300 avg by the time they retire, Cabrera may end up holding the "last .300 hitter"* title for quite a while.

Is it unrealistically optimistic to hope that bigger bases and the crackdown on shifts might reverse this trend?

* Career .300 hitter. Obviously .300 seasons will still happen (for a while, anyway)

** Mauer, Posey, and Cano all debuted after Cabrera, but retired earlier, which would make Miggy the last IMO

*** As mentioned already, Arraez (.314 in 1569 PA's) and McNeil (.307 in 2039 PA's) seem like the best bets to thwart Miggy's shot at this distinction

70. Walt Davis Posted: February 23, 2023 at 03:57 PM (#6118349)

Stance: c'mon, it is, was and always will be Bobby Tolan.

Pre-stance: it is, was and always will be the great Stargell windmill.

Carew: He actually had several stances, dependent somewhat on situation, pitcher, etc. He probably coulda hit as many HR as Ichiri if he wanted to. :-)

Altuve and 300: I suspect he'll hold on. All comes down to how much longer he'll play but his current contract runs out in two years and that's probably the last long-term one of his career. Once he's down to a 250 hitter with mid/late-30s defense and declining power, he's done. If he makes it as far as 10,000 PAs, he needs to hit about 284 to maintain that 300 average. That would be a tough ask. If he only makes it to about 9000 PA then he needs to hit only about 278 and, other than his horrid 2019, that's the worst BA of his career. Two solid years then a cliff dive would do it; or 4-5 solid years then a cliff dive. He doesn't want to Joe Morgan it out to 11,000 PA if he wants to hit 300.

71. BDC

Posted: February 23, 2023 at 04:49 PM (#6118362)

Tony Batista wasn't a great hitter – though looking him up, he hit 221 major-league home runs, albeit in a high-HR era. But Batista did have a wonderful batting stance. He stood there facing the pitcher directly, holding up the bat as if to say "hey, look what I just bought at Target!" It didn't look possible for him to gather himself together and even swing at a pitch, let alone hit a home run.

72. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 23, 2023 at 04:56 PM (#6118364)

He stood there facing the pitcher directly, holding up the bat as if to say "hey, look what I just bought at Target!"

Did it ever interfere with the catcher's throwing lane?

73. Booey Posted: February 23, 2023 at 05:42 PM (#6118370)

#70 - re: Altuve and .300

Maybe, but he also could be chasing 3000 hits (another feat that's going to be exceedingly rare going forward) by the end of his career, so that would likely take precedent over maintaining his .300 avg.

74. cardsfanboy

Posted: February 23, 2023 at 05:58 PM (#6118371)

#66 I think Wander Franco could be a guy with .330 seasons in his future.

There are probably a dozen guys who could put up a .330 season in the future, but I'm thinking more like the Boggs/Gwynn/Carew guys who you can predict with certainty that they will be contending for the batting title "next season". I used to think Matt Carpenter was going to be one of those guys early in his career and he never realized it, even though he put up good offensive numbers overall for many of the years. There are a handful of guys today playing that I can turn into true .300 hitters, but that doesn't mean they will.

Modification on a previous post. I completely forgot about Freeman, he's a true .300+ hitter now also. (even if he's already in his 30's)

75. Howie Menckel Posted: February 23, 2023 at 06:05 PM (#6118373)

Stance: c'mon, it is, was and always will be Bobby Tolan.

can confirm

76. The Duke Posted: February 23, 2023 at 06:51 PM (#6118384)

We have a few more hits with Billy Williams, Like Appling and Rod Carew

They are 7,10,8

So still missing number 6 and number 9. Number 9 is on the current Hall of Fame ballot and number 6 is not a HOFr but has been mentioned in this thread.

77. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 23, 2023 at 07:22 PM (#6118387)

Rusty Staub.

78. Cooper Nielson Posted: February 23, 2023 at 08:57 PM (#6118397)

Altuve and 300: I suspect he'll hold on. All comes down to how much longer he'll play but his current contract runs out in two years and that's probably the last long-term one of his career. Once he's down to a 250 hitter with mid/late-30s defense and declining power, he's done. If he makes it as far as 10,000 PAs, he needs to hit about 284 to maintain that 300 average. That would be a tough ask. If he only makes it to about 9000 PA then he needs to hit only about 278 and, other than his horrid 2019, that's the worst BA of his career. Two solid years then a cliff dive would do it; or 4-5 solid years then a cliff dive. He doesn't want to Joe Morgan it out to 11,000 PA if he wants to hit 300.

Yeah, I think one of the keys to maintaining a .300 career average (minimum 3000 PA) is avoiding that end-of-career decline, and the easiest way to do this is to simply stop playing. Pujols lost his .300 career average in his age-40 season; Will Clark retired at 36 (after hitting .319) with his .303 intact. Hal Morris (.304) was done at 35, John Kruk (.300) at 34, Rusty Greer (.305) at 33, Sean Casey (.302) at 32. If those guys wanted to/were able to play until their 40s, I have no doubt they would have finished below .300 (except for Clark, maybe).

So when we're looking for the next "last .300 hitter" it might very well be someone with a short career rather than a truly elite hitter.

Moises Alou is a weird counter-example. It looks like his career average might have dipped below .300 midseason around his age 36-37 seasons, then he hit .322 over his last four (partial) seasons from ages 38 to 41 to finish at .303.

79. Walt Davis Posted: February 23, 2023 at 09:31 PM (#6118405)

The only way for Altuve to make a serious run at 3000 hits is to keep hitting around 300. He'll need to get to (give or take) at least 11,000 PA so another 7 full seasons through age 39 and still have a 300 average. So possibly he does that and is sitting on 2920 or something and grinds it out. It is the Astros, they might allow him to Biggio it (5800 PA from 33-41), so I guess I can't rule it out.

Anyway, for sure, there is a solid chance that Altuve plays well enough to be worth playing regularly until he's 40 while playing not well enough to maintain that 300 average.

80. The Duke Posted: February 23, 2023 at 09:32 PM (#6118406)

Rusty Staub was in 1973 World Series

81. cardsfanboy

Posted: February 23, 2023 at 09:51 PM (#6118407)

The only way for Altuve to make a serious run at 3000 hits is to keep hitting around 300. He'll need to get to (give or take) at least 11,000 PA so another 7 full seasons through age 39 and still have a 300 average. So possibly he does that and is sitting on 2920 or something and grinds it out. It is the Astros, they might allow him to Biggio it (5800 PA from 33-41), so I guess I can't rule it out.

Altuve just posted a 5.1 war season, he's a free agent next season.... he has 1935 career hits, there is absolutely no reason to think he won't get a minimum of a 5 year contract going forward, which mean's he's pretty much guaranteed starting status for the next 4 years minimum and up to 6 years. No matter how good you actually are, starting status gives you 120 hits a season if you can stay on the field, so you are looking at a guy who is pretty much guaranteed 480 hits in a worse case scenario going forward(putting him at 2415 hits in a worse case scenario, meaning he drops to a 2 or less war player starting in 2023.)

Altuve isn't just going to make a serious run at 3000, he's pretty much guaranteed a serious run, even assuming a Renteria like collapsed based upon Renteria's last good year, we are still talking 400 hits going forward. Altuve is almost a lock for 2600 career hits, after that it just depends on how steep of a decline he has.

82. The Duke Posted: February 23, 2023 at 09:58 PM (#6118408)

Fangraphs did a chart at end of 2021 season that had Altuve as the best bet to get to 3000. Freeman, Tatis, Soto and acuna were next

83. Howie Menckel Posted: February 23, 2023 at 10:33 PM (#6118422)

Rusty Staub was in 1973 World Series

with a 1.085 OPS vs the Oakland dynasty, after a 1.123 OPS in the NLCS vs the Big Red Machine

4 HR, 11 RBI in 11 G

2 bites at the postseason apple in 23 seasons, pretty good results
retired a year before the 1986 Mets WS title, after a 126 OPS+ as a PH in 1985 (55 PA in 54 G and .400/.400/.800)

84. The Duke Posted: February 23, 2023 at 10:49 PM (#6118424)

Numbers 11-20 are:

Mickey Vernon
Buddy Bell
Tori Hunter
Sammy Sosa
Jose cruz
Brian downing
Frank Thomas
BJ surhoff
Chris speier
Andes Gallaraga

And finally clocking in at 21 is Ron Santo

That's a lot of Chicago players in the top 21

85. Booey Posted: February 23, 2023 at 10:50 PM (#6118425)

Yeah, I think one of the keys to maintaining a .300 career average (minimum 3000 PA) is avoiding that end-of-career decline, and the easiest way to do this is to simply stop playing. Pujols lost his .300 career average in his age-40 season; Will Clark retired at 36 (after hitting .319) with his .303 intact. Hal Morris (.304) was done at 35, John Kruk (.300) at 34, Rusty Greer (.305) at 33, Sean Casey (.302) at 32. If those guys wanted to/were able to play until their 40s, I have no doubt they would have finished below .300 (except for Clark, maybe).

So when we're looking for the next "last .300 hitter" it might very well be someone with a short career rather than a truly elite hitter.

Yep, retiring early is how Mauer and Posey were able to keep their .300 avgs. Cano didn't have a short career or retire early, but he would've dropped below last season if teams didn't keep cutting him after a dozen (or less) games.

Anyway, for sure, there is a solid chance that Altuve plays well enough to be worth playing regularly until he's 40 while playing not well enough to maintain that 300 average.

Yeah, I could definitely see Altuve becoming a .270 hitter with 20-25 homers a year as he advances deeper into his 30's. For a second baseman, that's still a good enough hitter that he could remain a full time starter until he's 40, while also dropping his career avg into the .290's.

86. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 23, 2023 at 10:51 PM (#6118426)

OK. Looking for a non-HOFer mentioned in this thread. Dale Murphy? Raines?

87. The Duke Posted: February 23, 2023 at 10:52 PM (#6118427)

Rusty Staub has some interesting comps - brooks robinson, Harold baines, al Oliver, Dave Parker, Tony Perez, tori Hunter, chili Davis

I wonder if would have gone in if he gets to 3000 hits

88. Howie Menckel Posted: February 23, 2023 at 11:24 PM (#6118429)

Yep, retiring early is how Mauer and Posey were able to keep their .300 avgs.

Mickey Mantle hit .245 and .237 in his final two seasons of 1967 and 1968 and finished at a .298 career mark.
he said it bugged him that he let the AVG go below .300.

he also felt like he was just, well, bad at baseball in 1968. true that his knees were shot and he was stuck at 1B in his last two seasons - quite a comedown for a glamorous CF in his prime.

but - not that anybody noticed at the time - he drew 107 and 106 walks in those two seasons at age 35 and 36 (2nd best both seasons to Killebrew 1967, Yaz 1968). and of course 1968 in particular was the Year of the Pitcher.

top 10 in AL OPS both seasons, pretty good. but I guess when you have been to the mountaintop, anything short of that doesn't feel like much of an achievement.

89. jingoist Posted: February 23, 2023 at 11:46 PM (#6118432)

Most fun for me:
As a youngster in the 1950’s, it was Mays, Mantle and Musial
By the 60’s it was still Mays, but I would add Clemente and Gibson and Frank Robinson.
The 70’s brought Wilbur “ spread some chicken on the hill Wil” Stargell and Morgan, Rose and Bench.
Cal Ripken was my go to guy in the 80’s and 90’s; sure did like to watch Clemens and Maddux pitch
Barry owned. The 2000’s.
Now I really watch Harper, Trout and Trea Turner and Ohtani

90. Booey Posted: February 24, 2023 at 12:51 AM (#6118433)

#86 - Raines is a HOFer and he played in the 1996 WS with the Yankees.

91. The Duke Posted: February 24, 2023 at 09:07 AM (#6118445)

Dale murphy is a good choice - he's not top 10. He lands at 26 on the list. Sadly this may be a big reason he couldn't get over the hump for Hall

92. The Duke Posted: February 24, 2023 at 09:25 AM (#6118446)

Mantle had 140-150 OPS+ and seven bWAR in those two seasons. He's ranked as 19th and 28th in fWAR in the AL in those years - still a highly productive player

93. coppermist72 Posted: February 24, 2023 at 02:04 PM (#6118488)

No offense to all the work on the formulas in this thread, but measuring fun? It is like going to a calculator to tell who what your favorite flavor of ice cream: One man's trash is another man's treasure and all...

94. Walt Davis Posted: February 24, 2023 at 02:20 PM (#6118490)

there is absolutely no reason to think he won't get a minimum of a 5 year contract going forward (he=Altuve)

Your facts are off a bit -- he's signed through age 2024, his age 34 season. That guy doesn't get a 5-year contract almost no matter how well those seasons go.

Again ... to get to 10,000 ABs, he'll need to get to about 11,000 PAs and he'll need to be a career 300 hitter then to have 3000 hits. He's at 6900 PA right now. Based on his recent track record, that will take 7 full seasons. Give or take, to have 3000 hits at that point, he needs to hit 289 from here on out. We can quibble but "The only way for Altuve to make a serious run at 3000 hits is to keep hitting around 300" seems a fair enough statement to me. Now if he can push on to 11,500 PAs or especially 12,000 PAs then he's got plenty of wriggle room.

No disagreement that he's got the best chance at 3000 hits I just don't think it's particularly good.

The original question was a career 300 BA. To do that he either needs a small number of decline PAs (i.e. he cliff dives whenever it happens) or no substantial decline (i.e. he makes a run at 3000 hits). What threatens both 300 and 3000 is several years as a solid 2B with a 270 BA. Altuve 2021 (278 BA) needs about 4700 more PA (11,600 career) to make it to 3000. That roughly is Biggio ages 33-39 (275 BA) and would give Altuve a bit more than the 1065 hits he needs. The main difference between the two players being that Biggio regularly put up 650-700+ PAs every year while Altuve seems to have settled in around 600.

So yes, it's quite possible Altuve will finish his age 39 season with something like 2920 hits and somebody will give him a job at 40 to finish it off.

95. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: February 24, 2023 at 02:45 PM (#6118495)

David Fletcher, before he got hurt, was incredibly fun to watch. Singles and doubles contact hitter, rarely struck out, ran hard out of the box every time, and played fantastic defense. I'm looking forward to seeing him healthy again because he's definitely a top five fun player when he's on.

96. The Duke Posted: February 25, 2023 at 12:17 AM (#6118564)

Julio Franco and Bobby Abreu round out the top 10. Another reason why Abreu isn't getting any love from the HOF voters

97. cardsfanboy

Posted: February 25, 2023 at 12:59 AM (#6118566)

Your facts are off a bit -- he's signed through age 2024, his age 34 season. That guy doesn't get a 5-year contract almost no matter how well those seasons go.

oops... not sure how I messed it up, looked at bb-ref, but must have had another name pulled up at the same time.

It does change some of the math of course, so he's probably not locked into anything other than 2300 hits with his current contract. Depending on where he ends up in value on his next free agent year really does make a difference. And honestly completely changes my evaluation. if he puts up a 3+ war in 2024 then he has a serious run at 3000 hits regardless of the number of hits he actually has at that point, if he doesn't then he's dealing with 2 or 3 year contracts where they can dump his ass.

98. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: February 25, 2023 at 02:23 PM (#6118605)

Watching Canseco was fun when the ball bounced off of his head and over the fence for a HR.

99. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: February 25, 2023 at 02:29 PM (#6118606)

Julio Franco and Bobby Abreu round out the top 10. Another reason why Abreu isn't getting any love from the HOF voters

Franco is obvious, but I never would have guessed Abreu.

100. SoSH U at work Posted: February 25, 2023 at 03:41 PM (#6118610)

Franco is obvious, but I never would have guessed Abreu

Because you're surprised he didn't make the Series or that he played that many games? As for the latter, he was one of the most durable guys of the 21st century (13 straight years of 150 or more, leading the league in games played twice). Outfieldfenceaphobia has its merits.

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