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Friday, September 25, 2020

Yadier Molina collects career hit number 2,000 Thursday night

Yadier Molina added another feather to the cap filled with his Hall of Fame credentials Thursday night at Busch Stadium.

In the bottom of the seventh inning of the Cardinals game against the Brewers, Molina lined a single into right-center field for the 2,000th hit of his Major League Baseball career. A vintage Yadi base hit, the smile on his face when it left his bat—and the subsequent fist bump as he made his way to first base—suggested Molina instantly knew he’d reached the achievement only attained by 11 other catchers throughout MLB history.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 25, 2020 at 01:53 PM | 44 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: yadier molina

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   1. JRVJ Posted: September 25, 2020 at 01:58 PM (#5978740)
Nice number.

As the article says, there are 11 catchers who've done this in the past, so still a ways to go.
   2. The Duke Posted: September 25, 2020 at 02:38 PM (#5978748)
There’s only three catchers who have 2000+ hits while playing catcher. Yadi is only about 20 hits away from that plateau to become the 4th. It’s far more meaningful stat than just getting to 2000. Pudge, Carlton Fisk and the third catcher on that list is Jason Kendall.

   3. salvomania Posted: September 25, 2020 at 02:46 PM (#5978750)
Yeah, Joe Torre (2,342 hits) is considered a "catcher" but almost 60% of his defensive innings were played elsewhere. He started 100+ games at catcher in a season just three times, the last in his age-26 season.

Yadi had a string of 15 consecutive 100+-start seasons until the pandemic hit.
   4. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 25, 2020 at 03:10 PM (#5978759)
Active catchers, most hits as a catcher:

Yadier Molina 1,978
Kurt Suzuki 1,289
Buster Posey 1,086
Jonathan Lucroy 1,068
Matt Wieters 1,044
Salvador Perez 922
Wilson Ramos 888
JT Realmuto 694


   5. baxter Posted: September 25, 2020 at 04:27 PM (#5978782)
Re 3, does baseball reference include starts in the games played b/c it shows Torre w/5 seasons 100 or more as a c; + a 92, 90 and 96

He's definitely a "combo" player, about the same # of career games (903) at catcher as Mauer (921)
   6. salvomania Posted: September 25, 2020 at 07:08 PM (#5978817)
Re 3, does baseball reference include starts in the games played b/c it shows Torre w/5 seasons 100 or more as a c; + a 92, 90 and 96

Yes, the yearly "Standard Fielding" record shows total games at each position, as well as starts and complete games (and innings) at each position.
   7. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: September 25, 2020 at 07:30 PM (#5978823)
Active catchers, most hits as a catcher:

Yadier Molina 1,978
Kurt Suzuki 1,289
Buster Posey 1,086
Jonathan Lucroy 1,068
Matt Wieters 1,044
Salvador Perez 922
Wilson Ramos 888
JT Realmuto 694


Jeff Mathis has been in the league longer than all these guys outside of Yadier and isn't particularly close to getting on the list. Are we sure he's not the greatest defensive catcher of all time?
   8. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 25, 2020 at 07:51 PM (#5978827)
Yadier Molina added another feather to the cap filled with his Hall of Fame credentials Thursday night at Busch Stadium.
Kind of makes him the Omar Vizquel of catchers, no? Molina has a 98 Career OPS+, so it’s a bit of a strain to cite his hitting as enhancing his Hall worthiness. Catchers who could actually hit remain under-represented in the Hall.
   9. The Duke Posted: September 25, 2020 at 08:20 PM (#5978831)
This from an article on Yadi today. The premise is that cardinal pitchers have been great, really great at defense since 2003

The true driver of the Cardinals defensive wizardry in the 21st century has been... PITCHERS. They’ve been top 5 in the league in 11 of those 18 seasons. It’s even more impressive when compared to the rest of the league. Since 2003, Cardinal pitchers have been worth 157 defensive runs saved (FanGraphs this time). The second best team, the Pirates, have 70. Hell, you can add the third best team (the Dodgers, 57) to the Pirates and you still fall 30 runs short of the Cardinals total.

That sounds funky. Maybe there’s something in DRS that can explain this. If we look at how it’s calculated, we see two potential explanations immediately:

Pitcher Stolen Base Runs Saved (Pitchers)
Strike Zone Runs Saved, with the following explanation: Strike Zone Runs Saved ascertains the contribution the catcher, pitcher, batter and umpire is making in getting more or fewer called strikes than average, converted to a run value.

After conferring with VEB writer emeritus Ben Clemens, we determined that the best way to test this out was to look at pitchers who pitched both for the Cardinals and elsewhere. I pulled together a ridiculous list that included everyone from Jake Westbrook to Danny Haren to Tyson Ross to noted franchise icon Blaine Boyer and 106 other pitchers. From there, we can compare their DRS with the Cardinals to their DRS elsewhere. We also need a control for time played. In this case, I’ve used total chances.

Cardinal Pitchers DRS, In STL and With Others
DRS
110 in STL
-85 With others
Total Chances
3659 In STL
9554 with others


Even though they had about one-third the number of chances in St. Louis as they had with other teams, they racked up 195 (!) more Defensive Runs Saved in St. Louis. These 110 pitchers were downright bad defenders by DRS when they played everywhere else. But in St. Louis, pitching to Yadier Molina (and a little bit to Mike Matheny, and The Old-Fashioned St. Looie Yadi Backup Singing Catchers)... they were worth 110 DRS.

That’s a pretty good argument for The Yadi Effect.
   10. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: September 26, 2020 at 01:38 AM (#5978890)
Yadi had a string of 15 consecutive 100+-start seasons until the pandemic hit.
]]

The amount of articles that will contain a similar "if not for the pandemic of 2020" line that will be written in the rest of my days will probably lead to a big reduction in the number of articles I read over the remainder of my life.
   11. Walt Davis Posted: September 26, 2020 at 02:18 AM (#5978892)
So you're saying you read a lot of articles until the pandemic hit.
   12. MuttsIdolCochrane Posted: September 26, 2020 at 05:05 AM (#5978895)
Amazing behind the plate, less than average at the plate. Should not be close to a HOF lock with so many catchers having overall better (offense and defense combined) years and careers. WAR and JAWS are so far short of even the average HOF catcher. If he makes it the reasons will be his defense, leadership, and a great deal of media hype. 2000 hits, nice hardly definitive. .737 OPS and 98 OPS+ less than impressive. Might qualify but this recent idea that he should be some kind of lock seems somewhat contrived.
   13. Adam Starblind Posted: September 26, 2020 at 10:21 AM (#5978912)
Hard to reconcile Molina getting in with Posada being one and done, but for the 2000 hit "milestone," which last I checked was worth absolutely nothing in one's quest for the Hall of Fame.

I guess would give some hope to Buster Posey.
   14. Howie Menckel Posted: September 26, 2020 at 11:44 AM (#5978929)
less than average at the plate.

you think a catcher with a 98 OPS+ is "less than average at the plate"?

I don't even know where to begin.

also, he IS a lock for the HOF.

whether he should be is by far the more interesting discussion.
   15. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: September 26, 2020 at 12:06 PM (#5978936)
Nah, neither one is an interesting discussion. The answer to the first question, as you say, is "yes", and the answer to the second is "no".
   16. Ron J Posted: September 26, 2020 at 12:45 PM (#5978945)
#14 Catcher voting for the Hall has been weird basically forever. Still I'd certainly bet on him making it.

And yeah he's both below average as a hitter and a decent hitter for a catcher. And because he's been durable, the Cardinals have not needed many PAs from backups and that helps a lot. Backup catchers can be real black holes offensively.

His 98 combined with relatively few PAs from his backups means that the Cardinals have gotten consistently above average offense at catcher compared to other teams.
   17. Adam Starblind Posted: September 26, 2020 at 01:18 PM (#5978953)
Other than the durability point (which as you say is far from nothing), it's hard to distinguish Molina from Jason Kendall, whether you go by peak or career. He would lower the bar unless you want to count some prewar guys I'd never heard of until I checked WAR and WAR7 leaders just now.
   18. John Northey Posted: September 26, 2020 at 01:33 PM (#5978963)
The 'if not for 2020' will replace the 'if not for 1981/1994' as the * on all baseball statistical cases. Sigh. Was so happy that I hadn't seen any 1994 stuff in awhile, now we have 20 years of 2020 to deal with. Btw, Atlanta, you won the division 11 times in a row, not 14, no matter how much you want to forget 1994.
   19. SoSH U at work Posted: September 26, 2020 at 03:15 PM (#5978984)
I'm no Yadi fan. Hell, if I had a HoF vote, the neck tat could very well be disqualifying from me.

But I think the idea he's not a legitimate HoF candidate is mistaken.

Sure, BBRef WAR only has him at 40 WAR. But Fangraphs, which is obviously calculating defense differently, has him at 56. And he has a spectacular defensive reputation, so it's not standing in contrast to how he's been perceived. Further, as Duke pointed out above, the Cardinals have been getting confoundingly good performances from their pitchers for as long as any of us can remember, and Yadi is the single constant.

But even if you don't fully buy into Fangraphs numbers, it hardly seems farfetched that his contribution exists somewhere between their WAR and BBRef's. And if that's the case, then he's sitting well above your average Posada and Jason Kendall and into the Munson-Freehan category, and he's not competing with either of those guys for votes.
   20. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 26, 2020 at 03:23 PM (#5978988)
Fangraphs has for some reason gone all-in on pitch framing as being, like, the single most important thing in the game. I think maybe it has something to do with the self-flagellation for the “arrogance” of the earlier stat heads - they got really excited to find something that the old guard appeared to have been right about.
   21. Jaack Posted: September 26, 2020 at 04:19 PM (#5979001)
Fangraphs has for some reason gone all-in on pitch framing as being, like, the single most important thing in the game. I think maybe it has something to do with the self-flagellation for the “arrogance” of the earlier stat heads - they got really excited to find something that the old guard appeared to have been right about.


This seems awfully cynical. What's the argument against pitch framing being a thing? I hear that people think the numbers are too big, but never any evidence for this case. A lot of smart people have worked on this problem with different approaches, and they all are getting similar results. That seems like pretty compelling evidence.

Personally, I wouldn't call Molina a slam dunk Hall of Famer, but if I had a ballot I'd probably vote for him.
   22. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 26, 2020 at 04:29 PM (#5979002)
It’s not that pitch framing isn’t a thing - it’s that the way they incorporate it into WAR calculations gives it far too much weight. Essentially, no other players have the opportunity to accumulate WAR at the individual pitch level. It gives catchers credit for something other than the eventual outcome of the at-bat, whereas batters don’t get rewarded for working more favorable counts in and of itself.
   23. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: September 26, 2020 at 04:55 PM (#5979007)
Honest question here: what do they do about WAA? By definition, it should sum to zero across the league (right?). Catchers get a bonus for pitch framing, but if WAA is to sum to zero, somebody must get a debit for it. Do pitchers get penalized for throwing pitches that should have been balls but were called strikes?
   24. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 26, 2020 at 05:53 PM (#5979014)
That’s a good question. I don’t know.
   25. ReggieThomasLives Posted: September 26, 2020 at 06:15 PM (#5979018)
Imagine how many hits he would have had if his accelerator went past "waddle"!
   26. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 26, 2020 at 06:30 PM (#5979022)
I wonder if his plaque will have the neck tat. That’d be a first.
   27. Rally Posted: September 26, 2020 at 07:35 PM (#5979026)
Pitch framing is a net zero. For every run that Yadi saves, some catcher is getting a negative, like Ryan Doumit.
   28. cardsfanboy Posted: September 26, 2020 at 07:49 PM (#5979027)
This seems awfully cynical. What's the argument against pitch framing being a thing? I hear that people think the numbers are too big, but never any evidence for this case. A lot of smart people have worked on this problem with different approaches, and they all are getting similar results. That seems like pretty compelling evidence.

Personally, I wouldn't call Molina a slam dunk Hall of Famer, but if I had a ballot I'd probably vote for him.


22 pointed it out more or less, the issue about pitch framing and putting it into a war formula, is that pitch framing is a per pitch number, while actual offense / plate appearance / defensive play is outcome/result based number. It's possible that a catcher can record more runs in one plate appearance for pitch framing, than the hitter has even possible, and yet the hitter ends up still performing well...Say the hitter hits a homerun on a 0-2 count, both of the pitches previous were out of the strike zone but the catcher managed to get the call, depending on how they calculate the numbers, the catcher could end up with more runs saved than the hitter produced, and even if they use a method that that isn't the case, the catcher still would end up getting credit for saving runs, that weren't actually saved.

Pitch framing is a great tool, don't get me wrong on that, but it's not really compatible with war, it's a secondary number that needs to be included in the discussion, but not something that should be considered in the same scale.

Having said that, I do think Duke posted something pretty terrific in 9, and I would love to see more on that discussion. As far as the hof though, I think it's pretty obvious that he's going to go in, or at least do very well in the voting, I'm not sure he's fully deserving, but simply listing war/waa isn't going to fully win the argument for catchers at least. As mentioned, the durability issue while being above average overall as a player at a position in which the backups routinely suck (outside of Pratt) is an actual skill... But I'm also the guy that faults players for missing playing time such as Larry Walker, so I'm going to automatically be biased towards guys who show up every day.
   29. DanG Posted: September 26, 2020 at 09:36 PM (#5979042)
Players with the multiple seasons of 6 WAR & 100 games at catcher since 1960:

Gary Carter    6 1979-1985
Johnny Bench   5 1969
-1975
Ivan Rodriguez 4 1996
-1999
Mike Piazza    4 1993
-1998
Buster Posey   2 2012
-2015
Yadier Molina  2 2012
-2013
Thurman Munson 2 1973
-1975
Carlton Fisk   2 1972
-1977
Bill Freehan   2 1967
-1968 

   30. cardsfanboy Posted: September 26, 2020 at 11:02 PM (#5979065)
That metric in 29 does seem a bit selective... drop it to 5 and you change it too.

Rk Name Yrs
  
1 Gary Carter 8
2 Johnny Bench 7
3 Mike Piazza 6
4 Ivan Rodriguez 5
5 Buster Posey 4
6 Joe Mauer 4
7 Ted Simmons 4
8 Thurman Munson 4
9 Jorge Posada 3
10 Carlton Fisk 3
11 Bill Freehan 3
12 Elston Howard 3
13 Yadier Molina 2
14 Russell Martin 2
15 Darren Daulton 2
16 Jim Sundberg 2
17 Joe Torre 2 


The list is all fine catchers, but the list in 29 was almost by definition designed to remove Mauer from the conversation, along with Posada and others...

I will argue that Molina deserves a conversation, but I don't (at least hope I don't) want to make the case based upon selective end points... Molina deserves consideration for a combo of longevity, durability, above average(relative to position not elite) quality as a hitter and potentially un-discovered defensive value... he needs all of that to make a case...
   31. Jaack Posted: September 26, 2020 at 11:04 PM (#5979066)
22 pointed it out more or less, the issue about pitch framing and putting it into a war formula, is that pitch framing is a per pitch number, while actual offense / plate appearance / defensive play is outcome/result based number. It's possible that a catcher can record more runs in one plate appearance for pitch framing, than the hitter has even possible, and yet the hitter ends up still performing well...Say the hitter hits a homerun on a 0-2 count, both of the pitches previous were out of the strike zone but the catcher managed to get the call, depending on how they calculate the numbers, the catcher could end up with more runs saved than the hitter produced, and even if they use a method that that isn't the case, the catcher still would end up getting credit for saving runs, that weren't actually saved.

Pitch framing is a great tool, don't get me wrong on that, but it's not really compatible with war, it's a secondary number that needs to be included in the discussion, but not something that should be considered in the same scale.


How is this substantially different from how we track hitting versus pitching? Batting runs are calculated on the plate appearance level for pretty much all WAR models, while pitching runs are mostly calculated on an inning-by-inning basis. If a pitcher allows a leadoff double and then produces three outs, he's credited for a shutout inning, no different from an inning with no baserunners. But we still credit the first batter for the double, despite the fact that no one scored.

In order for the WAR model to work, we have to be comfortable betweens wins and runs, and runs to individual plate appearances. I don't see moving from individual plate appearances to individual pitches to be a big break from that line of thinking. We value a run in a win as much as a run in a loss. For a batter, we value a double in a scoreless inning as much as one in a four-run inning. And we can value a stolen strike in a PA leading to a home run the same as a stolen strike leading to a strikeout.
   32. cardsfanboy Posted: September 26, 2020 at 11:18 PM (#5979070)
Here is the thing, in every way I have looked at it, ultimately there is a couple of names that show up in comparable lists who don't get true hof consideration.

Most of use on this board, generally think that Freehan is deserving, that Munson is on the cusp... but you have to also include Sundberg and Kendall in any legitimate discussion.... All of these four are at the minimum on the border, but Sundberg is the one name that isn't even remotely discussed in these discussions (on this board he get's a mention, but in the wider world, he is not even talked about as a hofer)

I did another search, which more or less matches up with my concept of being good enough.

Using a metric of 1 waa minimum, a minimum of 100 games... since 1960... and it was pretty much the standard list you see above. The exception is that you lose a little of the elite players who don't have the career.


1 Johnny Bench 13
2 Carlton Fisk 11
3 Ted Simmons 11
4 Ivan Rodriguez 10
5 Mike Piazza 10
6 Gary Carter 10
7 Thurman Munson 9
8 Jim Sundberg 8
9 Yadier Molina 7
10 Jorge Posada 7
11 Jason Kendall 7
12 Ernie Whitt 6
13 Lance Parrish 6
14 Darrell Porter 6
15 Bill Freehan 6
16 Buster Posey 5
17 Carlos Ruiz 5
18 Russell Martin 5
19 Tony Pena 5
20 Manny Sanguillen 5
21 Tom Haller 5
22 Joe Torre 5
23 John Romano 5
24 Brian McCann 4
25 Joe Mauer 4
   33. cardsfanboy Posted: September 26, 2020 at 11:21 PM (#5979071)
How is this substantially different from how we track hitting versus pitching? Batting runs are calculated on the plate appearance level for pretty much all WAR models, while pitching runs are mostly calculated on an inning-by-inning basis. If a pitcher allows a leadoff double and then produces three outs, he's credited for a shutout inning, no different from an inning with no baserunners. But we still credit the first batter for the double, despite the fact that no one scored.


Not really. Fangraphs model uses fip, so it's not about what the ultimate result , while bb-ref accounts for defense in the equation, even if there is no runs after a double, the credit goes to both the defense and the pitcher.
   34. Jaack Posted: September 27, 2020 at 01:03 AM (#5979094)
Not really. Fangraphs model uses fip, so it's not about what the ultimate result , while bb-ref accounts for defense in the equation, even if there is no runs after a double, the credit goes to both the defense and the pitcher.


Still, the offense and the defense receive different amounts of credit for the same events. If a batter hits a double, he gets credited for whatever the linear weights number for a double is once adjusted for park effects and all that. That is not the number that gets debited from the defense in any model. I don't see how it's any different with how pitch framing is done. Yes, a framed strike may not lead to an out. But a single may not lead to a run and a run may not lead to a win.
   35. The Duke Posted: September 27, 2020 at 11:14 AM (#5979107)
Yadi is basically going in on the Omar Vizquel model Plus with the Plus being the cardinals exceptional post-season Performance

If he gets two more full seasons he’ll be top 3 to top 5 of all the big categories of games played, innings caught, assists, putouts, hits, etc . And all of it will have been as a catcher.

But the Yadi effect is really the teams incredible run of deep post-season appearances with multiple World Series appearances and multiple additional NLCS appearances. There is no one else in the team who can be credited with that. Pujols, LaRussa, Beltran, wainwright, matheny, rolen, Edmonds were all there for bits and pieces of that run but Yadi is the only constant. They are unlikely to add to that in the next few years, but the body of work is impressive. Offensively, he has been quite good in the post-season as well so he gets some offensive “clutch”’points.

Everyone loves a winner and this will put him over the top.

I still think he’s a strong possibility of a first ballot inductee
   36. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: September 27, 2020 at 11:46 AM (#5979116)
"Hits as a catcher" seems a weird thing and almost undefinable. What does a 'hit as a catcher' mean in a context in which at-bats occur in a different half-inning than defensive plays?

Example: It's the 9th inning, away team is down one. Molina comes in as a 9th-inning pinch hitter. He hits, ties the game. Bottom of the 9th he squats down behind the plate to get the pitch from the reliever. The reliever winds up, and in the process of stepping off the rubber injures his ankle and the pitch isn't delivered. The reliever is taken out and so is Molina so that the next pitcher can get a catcher he is more familiar with. Was the hit in the top of the 9th a 'hit as a catcher' or not?
   37. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 27, 2020 at 12:04 PM (#5979120)
Essentially, no other players have the opportunity to accumulate WAR at the individual pitch level. It gives catchers credit for something other than the eventual outcome of the at-bat, whereas batters don’t get rewarded for working more favorable counts in and of itself.

100% correct. The catcher "steals" two borderline strikes to get to 0-2 and then the hitter deposits a hanging curve ball 450' away.

Under some bizarre logic the catcher is getting credit for saving some fraction of a run there, where he did no such thing.
   38. Jaack Posted: September 27, 2020 at 12:25 PM (#5979121)
Under some bizarre logic the catcher is getting credit for saving some fraction of a run there, where he did no such thing.


We credit a batter with a partial run if he walks and fails to score, because on average a walk is worth about half a run.

We credit a base runner with a partial run if he steals a base and fails to subsequently score. Hell, if a baserunning steals second and then is caught stealing third, he still gets credit for the first stolen base.

Changing a ball to a strike is, on average, worth a partial run. It decreases the chance of a walk, and increases the chance of an out, whether by contributing to a strikeout, or because batters hit worse in tough counts. Sometimes, it doesn't work out. But that's not a concern of the WAR model. If it was, we wouldn't credit someone for getting on base if they don't contribute to the scoring.
   39. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 27, 2020 at 01:27 PM (#5979140)
We credit a batter with a partial run if he walks and fails to score, because on average a walk is worth about half a run.

We credit a base runner with a partial run if he steals a base and fails to subsequently score. Hell, if a baserunning steals second and then is caught stealing third, he still gets credit for the first stolen base.

Changing a ball to a strike is, on average, worth a partial run. It decreases the chance of a walk, and increases the chance of an out, whether by contributing to a strikeout, or because batters hit worse in tough counts. Sometimes, it doesn't work out. But that's not a concern of the WAR model. If it was, we wouldn't credit someone for getting on base if they don't contribute to the scoring.


We credit for events, not partial events. We don't deduct the 0-2 from the batter. An 0-2 single is worth the same as a 3-0 single.
   40. Zach Posted: September 27, 2020 at 05:30 PM (#5979172)
Other than the durability point (which as you say is far from nothing), it's hard to distinguish Molina from Jason Kendall, whether you go by peak or career. He would lower the bar unless you want to count some prewar guys I'd never heard of until I checked WAR and WAR7 leaders just now.

Yes, but Jason Kendall is HOVG, at least. You don't have to be much better than Kendall to be a strong HOF candidate, and doing it by having more longevity at a position that historically lacks longevity really separates you from the pack.
   41. Ron J Posted: September 27, 2020 at 06:44 PM (#5979198)
#40 And it doesn't hurt his candidacy that he has narrative hooks.
   42. cardsfanboy Posted: September 27, 2020 at 07:12 PM (#5979204)
I still think he’s a strong possibility of a first ballot inductee


I think he's a possibility of a first balloter, but considering that the number of stat first voters will only increase by the time he comes up, making his war/waa or other stat based case a larger factor than the people that are talking now about how they'll vote.

He'll get in eventually, he'll do well on the ballot, but I'm not confident he breaks 50% on the writers ballot, as we get more and more writers that preach the war gospel; he will go in, first chance on the veteran's committee though.
   43. baxter Posted: September 27, 2020 at 09:19 PM (#5979236)
40 Kendall suffered a serious, running to first base iirc, lost his speed. I wouldn't think speed lasted long for C's in any event. He was a strong offensive player before the injury, not so much after, HOF chances derailed.

I'm not sure if Kendall lacks narrative; does seem much easier to create one for Molina.
   44. cookiedabookie Posted: September 28, 2020 at 09:05 AM (#5979325)
He's going to be inducted, and I'm not necessarily against it. There's at least four catchers I have ahead of him, though.

And there's only been two first ballot HoF catchers, Bench and Rodríguez. He doesn't belong in that conversation, when Berra, Fisk, Carter all had to wait.

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