Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Friday, December 20, 2002

Yahoo! Sports: MLB - Phillies get Millwood for Estrada

Schuerholz was confused.  He thought he was getting the cute guy from CHiPS.

Dan 'The Boy' Werr Posted: December 20, 2002 at 06:42 PM | 135 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 > 
   1. Dan 'The Boy' Werr Posted: December 20, 2002 at 06:43 PM (#201588)
Thanks to Stevie Ray and Eliot.
   2. TeddyA Posted: December 20, 2002 at 06:45 PM (#201589)
I think Mac Thomason over at

www.bravesjournal.com

sums up my feeling on this one.
   3. Stevens Posted: December 20, 2002 at 06:48 PM (#201596)
This is just ridiculous.
   4. TeddyA Posted: December 20, 2002 at 06:48 PM (#201597)
Let me be the first to say:

Johnny Freakin' Estrada!!!
   5. Snowboy Posted: December 20, 2002 at 06:49 PM (#201598)
Maybe even Bill Conlin can agree that getting Kevin Millwood in trade for a backup catcher improves the Phillies! (So much for theory of not wanting to trade a quality player to a division rival?)
   6. Craig Calcaterra Posted: December 20, 2002 at 06:49 PM (#201599)
Now that it has it's own thread, I'll repost my religious observation:

This is karma in action, really. I was merciless in taunting a co-worker who still loves John Hart from back in the Cleveland days after he traded away a useful player for Einar Diaz, and the cosmos are now punishing me with a similar yet 100 times worse trade involving my own team.
   7. J. Cross Posted: December 20, 2002 at 06:52 PM (#201600)
The braves would have been much better off just trading him for nothing outside the division.
   8. Robert Posted: December 20, 2002 at 06:58 PM (#201607)
The hidden cost of Greg Maddux accepting arbitration.

Everyone knows the Braves need to clear payroll to make room for Maddux's bloated salary, so JS has no leverage, and ends up giving him away.

Thanks Greg! Hope all the losing in '03 doesn't affect your golf game!
   9. Srul Itza Posted: December 20, 2002 at 06:58 PM (#201608)
I read about the trade and came to this site to see if there was anyone who could make any sense out of it, because my first, knee-jerk reaction was that this was entirely incomprehensible -- trading a good 28 year old pitcher who should have had a lot of people interested to a division contender which was hungry for pitching, in exchange, for a 27 year old back up catcher with two years of experience and all of 17 AB last year.

So far, no help.

Come on, there must be some explanation. Did Maddux say he was only agreeing to arbitration if he got a new non-hitting personal catcher? Did Millwood about to be suspended for substance abuse?

At least with Giambi for JFM, there was a "back story" that could explain why Giambi was dumped for the Intangibles God[Tm], but this is utterly mystifying.
   10. Mr. Crowley Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:00 PM (#201610)
IT'S A TRAP!!! (OTHERWISE, THERE IS NO EXPLANATION)
   11. Mikαεl Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:01 PM (#201611)
I stand by my earlier analysis.

This is a prank, likely by aliens of some sort.
   12. ColonelTom Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:04 PM (#201619)
My guess is that the Braves have offered a deal to Floyd already, and that he's likely to accept it. If that's common knowledge among baseball GMs, then everyone would know that the Braves were going to have to non-tender Millwood. So they took what little they could get for him, given that they had to deal him *today* and that the team getting him would have to be willing to take on about $6 million in salary next year.

Still, that's just putrid planning on Schuerholz's part.

If he had dumped Millwood to an American League team, you could at least view this as Millwood-for-Floyd. Instead, he's vastly strengthened the Phils' rotation, which is looking better than the Braves' at this point.
   13. Brian Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:05 PM (#201620)
Estrada took over the regular catching duties when Lieberthal went down in 2001 and got close to 300 ABs. He is beyond BAD. He is really BAD. This trade is incomprehensible. Even as a salary dump it's incomprehensible.
   14. TeddyA Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:07 PM (#201622)
What's so confusing, Mike C., is that you don't really have to "dump" Millwood's salary. I understand that you have to move it but it's not like he's a bad pitcher with a huge salary. He's a very good pitcher whose likely to make a fair wage.

Certainly, there's a team in the major who would be willing to give something better than a 26 year old minor leaguer for Kevin Millwood. What about Texas? And why the Phillies of all the teams in MLB?

I've read several versions of the story, hoping, like Srul, that there's something to explain this like they also took Javy and Vinnie.
   15. Craig Calcaterra Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:08 PM (#201623)
Robert:

Your analysis only makes sense if having Millwood's salary beyond this morning at 11:30 would have caused the Braves to be fined a jillion dollars or something. Even if the Braves internally had decided that they absolutely had no choice but to move Millwood, there was nothing requiring them to do it today, or to a division rival, or for absolutely nothing. Trading Millwood for bag of bats would have been preferable, because at least the bats could theoretically hit. Even trading him for an absolutely useless AAA first basemen would have been better than Estrada.
   16. Scott Lange Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:08 PM (#201624)
Even if you have to trade Milwood within the next hour, you couldn't call another GM and see if he could beat an offer of Estrada off the top of his head?
   17. Mikαεl Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:12 PM (#201631)
With the Giambi trade and now this, I'm beginning to get a sense of what Ed Wade does all day...

"Hello, Mr. Sabean? Would you take Marlon Anderson for Bonds? No? Ok. How's the wife and kids? Glad to hear. Anyway, I gotta run."

[click]

"Hey, is this Theo? I've just freed up some money, are you interested in trading Nomar for a bucket of tar? The tar is still quite warm. No? Well, it was good talking to you again."

[click]

"Hi, John...
   18. WaltDavis Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:12 PM (#201632)
Talk about painting yourself into a corner. At least wait to sign Byrd and/or trade for Ortiz until you know what's up with Maddux. If Maddux comes back, you only do one of Byrd/Ortiz because, shazam, you've already got Millwood, Hampton, and Marquis.

And as much as I love Maddux, the upgrade from Millwood to Maddux is nowhere near the upgrade from Phils' 5th starter to Millwood.
   19. Craig Calcaterra Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:14 PM (#201633)
"The NL East looks like it's going to be an interesting division in 2K3."

I wouldn't know; I won't be watching. Damn you, USFL! Why did you have to fold! What will I do for entertainment this summer?!
   20. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:14 PM (#201634)
Astonishing even myself, I find that I have compassion for Braves fans. This one has to be a contender for the worst deal of the year...
   21. The Original Gary Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:17 PM (#201639)
I've looked at this "trade" from all angles and can only come up with one response: Holy crap!

Did Atlanta make ANY phone calls to other teams? I have to think they'd have gotten more of an offer with even the tiniest bit of effort. As a Boston fan, I just have to hope that the new brain trust wasn't contacted at all. If they wouldn't beat the Phils deal, then I will have to hang my head in shame.

Again, holy crap!
   22. yb125 Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:19 PM (#201643)
Unless Millwood has the west nile virus or something even the worst planning doesn't explain this, is there any team that would've given them something of more vaule then Johnny, don't they still have Javy and Blanco?
   23. Robert Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:19 PM (#201645)
Well it's not really Greg's fault, he did what was best for himself which I guess he has a right to do. By accepting arbitration he pushed the Braves over payroll, which meant they would have to either non-tender Millwood or trade him quickly.

This is the kind of deal that gets made when everyone knows the guy could be had for free in a few days.

It was extremely stupid to give him to the Phillies though. The list of teams that can add at least $6 million in salary is pretty thin but it seems like they could have gotten something worthless from the Red Sox instead.
   24. Robert Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:23 PM (#201650)
Rivers,

I think we've figured out who your favorite player is.

Nothing wrong with that. He's a real fine player.
   25. Lujack Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:27 PM (#201651)
What's worse Mabry for Little G or Millwood for Estrada?
   26. TeddyA Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:30 PM (#201655)
Lujack (#64),

I'm a Braves fan and out of my mind with rage so I'm neither objective nor rational right now, but this is far, far worse. At least Little G is some kind of "crazed dope fiend" or something. Millwood's just a nice guy who's now going to beat us.

That's the big thing, we made us worse and our main rival better which is worse still in an era with unbalanced scheduling.

Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
   27. Craig Calcaterra Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:32 PM (#201658)
"What's worse Mabry for Little G or Millwood for Estrada?"

Millwood Estrada by far, and not just because I'm a Braves fan. Somewhat out of shape dudes with a bad glove and good on-base skills who may or may not be clubhouse cancers are not as rare as number 1 or number 2 starters (which is what Millwood is on any other team than the 1997-2002 Braves).
   28. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:32 PM (#201659)
Anybody get a chance to see/hear the press conference?
   29. Srul Itza Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:35 PM (#201666)
"What's worse Mabry for Little G or Millwood for Estrada?"

Which thread will be longer? :)

I'm still convinced this is part of a 3-way

That's it!! Ed Wade has pictures of a three way involving Billy Beane, John Schuerholz and Marge Schott. That explains those trades!
   30. Dan 'The Boy' Werr Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:36 PM (#201667)
...number 1 or number 2 starters (which is what Millwood is on any other team than the 1997-2002 Braves)

And certain teams in the desert.

I agree that this is worse; at least with Giambi, you can say that he can't field or run or slide or something. With Millwood, there's no big minuses that you can say outweigh the pluses.

I'm with Jeff Webber. Why not Seattle? Why??
   31. HCO Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:36 PM (#201668)
You're just an incoherent Braves fan, the kind who applauds runs that score on double-play groundouts,

If you respect the productive out, the productive out will respect you!
   32. TeddyA Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:37 PM (#201669)
To give you an idea of how bad I think this deal is:

A couple days ago people were posting about Millwood for Nick Johnson, and I was thinking: Boy, Nick Johnson's sure been hurt alot. And now, Johnny F. Estrada, and they don't even take Javy's (or at least Blanco's) salary.
   33. Eliot Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:37 PM (#201670)
Well now I guess we know - Schuerholz has snuck his six-foot Bong into the clubhouse.
   34. Toolsy McClutch Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:39 PM (#201671)
A lot of these trades wouldn't happen if the owners/GMs had any faith that arbitration would reflect the 'NEW ECONOMIC REALITY OF BASEBALL". Sorry for putting that in caps, it's just that I've seen that phrase used so often now I figure it deserves extra billing.
   35. Lujack Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:42 PM (#201675)
Schuerholz is calling this a money deal:

"I tried. No one was willing to take the $10 million this season," Schuerholz told Ravech. "Only one team (wanted to), and it was the team he was ultimately traded to. As late as 15 minutes before the deal was finalized, I was on the phone and not one team was willing to move."

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1220/1480130.html
   36. KDub's CellPiece (BLtDH) Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:42 PM (#201677)
Ok, so maybe it's a salary dump, maybe JS had no leverage, but you can't tell me you couldn't get anything more from some other team, any other team, at least one that isn't in your division.
   37. Srul Itza Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:43 PM (#201678)
Actually, Ted, that is what I was wondering. The Yankees were after Bartolo Colon, and offering real value in return. The Braves could at least have gotten legitimate prospects for him, at a minimum.
   38. TeddyA Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:44 PM (#201679)
Pfizer, I know AOL is cost cutting and arbitration is uncertain, but it's not like they're going to award Millwood $25 million. At $10-12 million you should be able to get something for him. Or you could have kept Moss and the prospect and not acquired Byrd.
   39. Craig Calcaterra Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:46 PM (#201682)
"No one was willing to take the $10 million this season," Schuerholz told Ravech."

Well, except for us; we're taking it in the form of Ortiz and Byrd rather than Millwood and Moss.
   40. Eli Hungerford: Cityboy Crypto-Elitist for hire Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:50 PM (#201690)
"Schuerholz told ESPN, "The economics in baseball stink. The economics stink, and if this isn't a clear enough signal to the doubters and naysayers, to be forced to trade an 18-game winner to your arch enemy ... The economics stink.""

Sure John, Sure. This has to be the lamest excuse for a trade in recent memory. At least Beane had that "Giambi as a one-dimensional" player smoke screen to hide behind......not to mention Little G's self-produced smoke screen.
   41. Craig Calcaterra Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:51 PM (#201691)
Further quotes from JS, courtesy of the AJC:

"Estrada is someone we've thought very highly of for years,'' Schuerholz said. ''We think he's the total package and will be our catcher of the future. Although we're not sure when that future begins."

Words. Cannot. Express. The. Rage.
   42. Srul Itza Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:51 PM (#201693)
Wade (despite this lucky trade)

Luck don't begin to cover it. He was trying to take Glavine from the Braves, and ended up taking Millwood from them instead. I bet you now that Millwood makes less this year than the Phils would have paid Glavine.

So two of the three pitchers at the top of the Braves' very good rotation last year will be pitching for division rivals this year.

Oy.
   43. Edmundo Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:53 PM (#201696)
#54 -- Jeff Webber
   44. Andere Richtingen Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:56 PM (#201699)
Did Atlanta make ANY phone calls to other teams?

You'd think that the Phillies, their division rivals, would have to be the LAST team they wanted to send him to.
   45. Toolsy McClutch Posted: December 20, 2002 at 07:59 PM (#201703)
I can't believe there was much, if any outside of the Braves, interest in Byrd. I'm no Millwood fan, but basically JS has no one to blame but himself. And I still think it was stupid to move Chipper to left. As I've already stated on this site (much easier to find a run producing OF than a run producing 3B, especially nowadays). Indeed, the King is dead. Long live the King.
   46. Paul Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:00 PM (#201704)
Is there going to be a press conference? Surely JS will tell us why the Phillies? Were they the only takers? Hardly!
   47. User unknown in local recipient table (Craig B) Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:02 PM (#201705)
The economics in baseball stink. The economics stink, and if this isn't a clear enough signal to the doubters and naysayers, to be forced to trade an 18-game winner to your arch enemy ... The economics stink.""

Unutterably pathetic. Schuerholz gets a twisted boner over a backup catcher, diddles with a division rival, and this is the excuse he has when he comes home to the fans?

I'm loving this. I hate the damn Braves.
   48. Craig Calcaterra Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:06 PM (#201709)
Where's the Beeah Guy when you need him?
   49. Fog City Blues Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:09 PM (#201714)
"The economics stink, and if this isn't a clear enough signal to the doubters and naysayers, to be forced to trade an 18-game winner to your arch enemy ... The economics stink."

Huh? They were forced to trade Millwood? JS wasn't bad-mouthing the economics of baseball earlier this week when he added about $10 million in payroll by signing Byrd and trading for Ortiz.

I'm not even a Braves fan and I'm upset about this deal.
   50. KDub's CellPiece (BLtDH) Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:13 PM (#201716)
Good point, Slapper.

On second though, shut up. You're stupid.
   51. Shredder Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:13 PM (#201717)
Craig, I think at this point you need either the heroine guy or the hemlock guy.

Hey, people are always harkening back to a simpler time, to a the golden age of baseball. Part of that golden age included the Braves sucking. JS is doing his part to bring those days back.
   52. Darren Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:13 PM (#201718)
How is Millwood average. Comps mean very little, but if he could pitch like Jack McDowell next year, I'm sure the Phils would be pretty happy.
   53. Brian K. Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:14 PM (#201720)
Millwood a tad better than avg? He had one bad year, two years ago. Every year 'sides that has been above avg. And everything keeps getting better statistically.
   54. Brian K. Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:14 PM (#201721)
Millwood a tad better than avg? He had one bad year, two years ago. Every year 'sides that has been above avg. And everything keeps getting better statistically.
   55. The Original Gary Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:14 PM (#201722)
Remember when...

http://www.baseballprimer.com/clutch/archives/00003291.shtml

Let's break the record!
   56. Eli Hungerford: Cityboy Crypto-Elitist for hire Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:15 PM (#201724)
Wow. Slamball (#125) looks like the ultimate stoner spectator sport.
   57. Charles Saeger Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:16 PM (#201727)
Boy, did I say some stupid things on that thread.
   58. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:20 PM (#201731)
Well, I guess we found the real freakin' today - it ain't Jeremy Freakin' Giambi nor is it Johnny Freakin' Estrada, no.

It's Ed Freakin' Wade - Hypnotist Extraordinare! Now appearing twice a year in mind-boggling trades across MLB!! I'd warn Thrift & LeMar to run & hide, but it ain't like they've gotten all that much worth trading for.

"What's worse Mabry for Little G or Millwood for Estrada?"

At least Beane kicking Giambi out of the division (& league). This would be like trading Giambi to Seattle for Pat Borders.
   59. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:21 PM (#201736)
Well, if you believe JS and the Phils were the only team willing to take on the contract, if he non-tendered Millwood, Philadelphia might have been able to sign him for less than $10 million and the Braves wouldn't have gotten anything back. (I assume you don't get draft picks on a non-tender FA). Or is there some reason he couldn't non-tender him? I can't think of one, but I don't know everything about contracts.

Oh, and if we did believe JS, then there's a bunch of "smart GMs" who we should be giving grief to for not coming up with a better deal. The Red Sox could have done it, I would think the Blue Jays could, maybe the Padres, and the A's could have moved him on somewhere else.
   60. Shredder Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:30 PM (#201746)
The Mabry thread raises an interesting question, or at least a question. What other threads have been locked? I mean, we can still post in threads from almost two years ago, so it must be an honor (or honour for a great many of you) reserved for "special" threads. Perhaps they should be listed in sort of a "Clutch Hits Hall of Fame" (or "Hall of Shame," depending on your point of view).

Dammit, I wanna know!
   61. Craig Calcaterra Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:37 PM (#201749)
Shredder, if you see the hemlock guy, tell him to throw a bag (or a cup? Is hemlock a liquid?) this way.

"Oh, and if we did believe JS, then there's a bunch of "smart GMs" who we should be giving grief to for not coming up with a better deal."

Oh, I have no doubt that he's telling the truth that no GM immediately responded to him with an offer. That's because no GM in his right mind would make a deal -- almost any deal -- without at least first thinking a bit, considering their needs, etc. The whole idea that Millwood would be available only developed since Tuesday at the absolute earliest when the Braves signed a couple of pitchers, but really didn't become a reality until Maddux said he'd accept arbitration. Only John Shuerholz felt that Millwood had to be dealt TODAY.

JS waited until deep into spring training to deal Justice and Grissom for Lofton. He waited until mid January to deal for Sheffield (and the fact that LA didn't hold out speaks to the good deal the Braves got, Odalis Perez's unexpected breakout season notwithstanding). He may have felt pressure from above to pare payroll, but he also had six quality starters in a league where everybody values pitching. If, as his assistant said just yesterday, he had gone on his vacation, taken his cell phone with him, and let awareness of his pitching riches percolate through the league for even a week or two, you can't tell me that no one would have at least floated something better than Estrada, even in a salary-dump scenario.

Any idiot can say "the economics stink" (even more laughable coming form the architect of the Castilla, Lopez, Surhoff, and Byrd signings). A smart businessman -- in any industry -- figures out how to turn his weaknesses into strengths, or at least lessen the impact of those weaknesses. This, out of laziness or exhaustion, or fragile nerves, Schuerholz failed to do, and for this he should be fired.
   62. Eli Hungerford: Cityboy Crypto-Elitist for hire Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:42 PM (#201755)
You got JS's number, Craig. What's so insipid about his "economics stink" line is that he's playing by the same economic rules as everyone else, in terms of the rules (arbitration, FA's, etc.), if not the budget. Add that to the fact that more than half the teams in the league would go giddy at the prospect of the Brave's checkbook. What a frickin' cop-out.
   63. Eliot Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:56 PM (#201770)
Top theories on why Braves GM John Schuerholz traded Kevin Millwood to a division rival for a bucket of tar

Estrada huge upgrade from Millwood, at the plate

Took best deal out there: Braves already all set for paper towels, cocktail napkins, TP, thanks

Millwood was doing absolutely nothing for the Braves' yawning lineup holes at first, second and third base

Things have really cooled down, it's time to bring back Rocker

Wanted to add insult to injury for Met fans by making them realize that Braves dominance over last decade was not product of savvy management, but in spite of incredible stupidity

Brave teammates turned off by Millwood's long bullpen harangues on renewable energy sources

Maddux taking part of his salary in personal catchers

The tar was still quite warm

Millwood refused to participate in Mazzone-mandated rocking-in-place regimen

Disposing all those unused playoff tickets is expensive, you know

Mmm, warm tar

(Props to Mikael (#44) for "warm tar".)
   64. Craig Calcaterra Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:57 PM (#201771)
"what confidence can any Braves fan have that he will make the right choice?
   65. Repoz Posted: December 20, 2002 at 08:58 PM (#201772)
This trade will even out...as soon as Bowa makes Millwood the closer.
   66. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:03 PM (#201777)
Semi-useless note:

Last year, the Braves had the best team H% in the league - .270 (using the formula H% = (H-HR) / [TBF - (W + K + HB + HR)]

Millwood's H% was .271, giving him a hit deviation of zero.

The Phils had a H% of .300 - 14th in the NL & 26th in baseball. Given that Millwood put 628 balls in play last year, that means a difference of 19 hits.

Are the Phils getting a new stadium in '03 or '04? If so, that could make a big difference in the above.

Doesn't mean anything, still a terrible trade, but I found it interesting.
   67. bunyon Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:05 PM (#201778)
Does anybody feel me?

Ummmmm.....
   68. fables of the deconstruction Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:07 PM (#201780)
Craig,

You better watch what you wish for. AOL might just hire Randy Smith in JS's stead just because he's "cheap" and" "available."

--------
   69. J. Michael Neal Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:08 PM (#201783)
Of course, given the history of the guy that Philly swiped for Mabry, what are the chances that Millwood just rots in the bullpen all year?
   70. Danny Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:13 PM (#201786)
I think most people here are overvaluing Millwood. He has a career 116 ERA+, which is good, but not great. He's had one great year, one good year, and three average years. Hudson, Mulder, and ZIto have all been better the last two years, and for their careers. Even Lidle has a 114 ERA+, and he's only had two good years. Randy Wolf has been better the last two years.

Russ Ortiz has performed as well as Millwood over the last two years. Paul Byrd has been better him over 2 years. Before Colorado, Hampton was a much better putcher than Millwood.

I certainly don't think that this was a good trade, as the Braves should have gotten more and should have traded him outside the division. But Millwood is overrated because of his W-L record, and would thus be overpaid by an arbitrator. The Braves didn't want to risk the chance of being stuck with his salary, so they acted rashly. I don't think this is too different from the A's dumping Lidle for nothing.
   71. Rick A. Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:16 PM (#201791)
"Does anybody feel me?"

Uh.. Is it sexual harassment if I said yes?
   72. Snowboy Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:17 PM (#201792)
Possible explanation: Scherputz had been inhaling helium ballons this morning. When he called the other GMs about Millwood...(1) they didn't recognize the voice, thought it was a prankster. (2) By the time he got to 29th team on his list, he was giggly and lightheaded.
   73. Cris E Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:31 PM (#201797)
Schurholtz has held 'em too losing in the past and been burned, and right now he has the added concern of budget constraints. It was still a bad dump (no one? come on...) but from his point of view the teams that can afford a new #2 are few, while the list of guys out there starts with Clemens, 2 from MON, Finley, and one from ATL. Schurholtz's only defense for moving this early and weakly is that he wanted out before the market collapsed. This was an "after collapse" sort of move.

One other point is that some sharp guy lke Cashman should have been on the phone to ATL as soon as Maddux accepted arb. It was pretty clear someone was going to have to go, so you'd think Cashman would have leaked a lowball offer just to whack Omar and Roger across the noses.
   74. Darren Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:35 PM (#201800)
Has anyone considered that this will probably end Millwood's career? He pitched best when the Braves were holding him to about 6 IP per start in the 2nd half of the season.

How will he fare under Bowa?
   75. Repoz Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:40 PM (#201803)
Jeeesh.....All you guys are on the wrong story....J.P. gets Bordick
   76. Bob Koo Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:47 PM (#201806)
To add to the madness... the Mets just signed Cliff Floyd.
   77. Jb Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:52 PM (#201811)
Another blockbuster: Pirates aquired RHP Matt Herges from Montreal in exchange for mino league pitchers Chris Young and Jon Searles, and designated RHP Jim Mann for assignment.

But Chris Young is 6-7!

Please provide link here.
   78. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:55 PM (#201813)
Bob Koo - You have a link to something on Floyd, or are you just yanking our chains?
   79. Mr. Crowley Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:56 PM (#201814)
It's a chain-yank!
   80. Bob Koo Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:58 PM (#201815)
The former. The AP is reporting it. 4-year deal pending a passed physical tomorrow.
   81. Mr. Crowley Posted: December 20, 2002 at 09:59 PM (#201816)
No, its definately a trap?
   82. Mr. Crowley Posted: December 20, 2002 at 10:01 PM (#201821)
   83. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 20, 2002 at 10:10 PM (#201824)
The Admiral is apparently suffering from a bit of split-personality disorder. Well, it's true, and probably not a bad move, although that depends on how goofy Phillips got with the money. Of course, that just makes it harder to unload Burnitz, not that it was particularly easy up until now. If O'Dowd is smart he'll hold out for a straight Burnitz-Neagle swap.
   84. Craig Calcaterra Posted: December 20, 2002 at 10:13 PM (#201825)
While I wait for the hemlock to kick in, I'll steal a post I saw over at Braves Journal from Bamadan (not sure if he posts here or not):

So we slashed salary getting rid of Glavine and Millwood, but added just as much or more by adding Hampton, Ortiz and Byrd. We weakened the pitching and didn't improve the hitting. The shed pitching went to our rivals, and now with the Floyd signing, one of the best bets to improve the hitting did as well.

Since I'm quoting other people, let me add in a Gregg Easterbrook:

YE GODS!
   85. Mr. Crowley Posted: December 20, 2002 at 10:18 PM (#201828)
Sorry, this story is no longer available
   86. Shredder Posted: December 20, 2002 at 10:18 PM (#201829)
Re: posts 188 and 233

Possibly posts from two different females on this thread, more if Alicia is "a young women". Is that a 'Clutch Hits' record?
   87. Craig Calcaterra Posted: December 20, 2002 at 10:32 PM (#201836)
Chief Wahoo:

I agree with you that it is entirely possible that Scheurholz was ordered to get rid of Millwood -- now -- by AOL functionaries. I am less convinved that there was a conspiracy theory afoot to sabotage things, but that's probably irrelevent.
   88. Zagg Posted: December 20, 2002 at 10:37 PM (#201839)
I don't know. This scenario was actually reported in the New York Post earlier this week. I think it was Joel Sherman or George King. They wrote that Maddux was expected to accept arbitration and that the Braves would then flip Millwood. Only the Post reported it as Johnson-for-Millwood. If the New York Post beat writers could see this scenario coming down the pipe, shouldn't Schuerholz have been better prepared?
   89. Spike Posted: December 20, 2002 at 10:41 PM (#201840)
Anybody got a Yankees hat they want to sell cheap?
   90. dlf Posted: December 20, 2002 at 10:53 PM (#201854)
Craig (#239): yes I do post here occasionally, but surf frequently. Not sure why I don't use my other sobriquet when I do post, but what the heck.

And I've never had something I wrote pirated. Coming from one of the most insightful Braves fans on this board, I'm honored! Now since you've stolen my prose, if you would at least share the hemlock ...

Ed Hearn for David Cone? Or Millwood for CHiPs?
   91. Andrew Edwards Posted: December 20, 2002 at 10:54 PM (#201857)
Worst. Trade. Ever.

That said, the 'hole at 1B' thing isn't really true. He's just plugged in the replacement-level talent everyone's always saying is out there. And done better at 1B than, say, Pitt, SF, LA, Phil (last year), and several others.
   92. dlf Posted: December 20, 2002 at 10:56 PM (#201859)
How much credit does he get for some pretty good scouting (the Joneses, Javy was above avg for a couple years, a smattering of decent-to-above average pitchers)?

Chipper was signed when Bobby Cox was GM, as was Javy Lopez.
   93. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: December 20, 2002 at 10:58 PM (#201861)
"Chuck LaMar - you don't look smarter than anyone. It's just that your team can't fall any lower."

"Philippe - Clearly you've forgotten that no team has lost more than 110 games since 1939. I promise you to do everything I can to break that record, but I still look smarter than Shuerholtz."

No AL team has done it. NL teams have.

Just think, last time, an AL team lost 100, Strom Thurmond was middle-aged.
   94. Craig Calcaterra Posted: December 20, 2002 at 11:02 PM (#201868)
Sean (and Chief, who made the same point):

"When Maddux opted for arbitration, John's bosses gave him 24 hours to trade Millwood or non-tender him."

If that's the case, then I realize why AOL/Time-Warner is in such trouble. Like their merger, such a shortsighted move accomplished nothing but to make them feel good immediately (though not us) at the expense of everything else that mattered.

dlf:

"And I've never had something I wrote pirated. Coming from one of the most insightful Braves fans on this board, I'm honored! Now since you've stolen my prose, if you would at least share the hemlock ..."

There's plenty to go around. Thanks for the kind words. I pirated yours because they perfectly summed up what 1000 curses on my part weren't effectively conveying. Also, I should mention that I pirated a variation on them in an email to the Brave's Vent over at the AJC. I hate the Vent, but I'm hurtin' today and need the catharsis.
   95. Shredder Posted: December 20, 2002 at 11:02 PM (#201869)
And they only got Chipper because Van Poppel told the Braves he was going to college.
   96. Roger McDowell spit on me! Posted: December 20, 2002 at 11:04 PM (#201870)
I think that Schuerholz was prepared to make any necessary adjustments in due course. I don't think he anticipated what I think happened: that somebody at AOL went absolutely batshit and, either through or over Stan Kasten and Ted Turner, told Schuerholz that if he didn't lop off one of Maddux, Millwood, Ortiz, Hampton or Byrd with the hour, he would be fired.

If this is the way it went down, and I were in Schuerholz's shoes, I would have quit on the spot. Granted, I wouldn't have ever been able to get another job in baseball, but still...
   97. Joel Barrett Posted: December 20, 2002 at 11:15 PM (#201875)
The earlier whining about our sponsorship of the Kevin Millwood page at baseball-reference.com was by an imposter (and I'd appreciate it being removed).

If I can sponsor the Ryan Klesko page despite his having been traded away, I can certainly sponsor the Kevin Millwood page.
   98. Bud in SF Posted: December 20, 2002 at 11:22 PM (#201876)
How smart was it to offer Maddux arbitration? I know the prospect of draft picks is important, but after last year's surprise acceptance of arb by David Bell and others, Schuerholz should've either been prepared for a worst-case scenario in which Maddux does accept arb and stretches the budget, or never offered it at all. Instead, he played right into Boras' hands. Regardless of AOL's influence, Schuerholz ran a gambit that was far too risky, and subsequently paid the price.

Contrast this to Sabean's moves, where he turned Ortiz into a needed and much cheaper LHP AND will get a draft pick for Kent. Not too bad, considering this doomsday economic situation we're hearing about.
   99. Mr. Crowley Posted: December 20, 2002 at 11:25 PM (#201879)
"The earlier whining about our sponsorship of the Kevin Millwood page at baseball-reference.com was by an imposter (and I'd appreciate it being removed)."

It's a trap!
   100. Roger McDowell spit on me! Posted: December 20, 2002 at 11:38 PM (#201884)
Chief -

It's a great theory. AOL/Time Warner, behind the grassy knoll...but if Schuerholz had just been smart in the first ten places, and waited on either the Ortiz or Byrd deals a little longer in order to see what Maddux did, he wouldn't have found himself in this predicament in the first place. I'm guessing one of them would have been available still, and that's all he would have needed. He wouldn't have been so far over budget, and maybe he could have convinced the AOL/TW guys to hold off for a bit.
Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 > 

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
robneyer
for his generous support.

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogBaseball Hall of Fame tracker 2022
(1167 - 6:30pm, Jan 25)
Last: Jaack

NewsblogNBA 2021-2022 Season Thread
(2139 - 6:21pm, Jan 25)
Last: If on a winter's night a traveling violation

Hall of MeritHeavy Johnson
(59 - 6:02pm, Jan 25)
Last: Dr. Chaleeko

NewsblogTom Goodwin, former Boston Red Sox coach, says MLB bullied coaches into getting COVID-19 vaccine: ‘There was no choice’
(104 - 5:50pm, Jan 25)
Last: smileyy

NewsblogBraves, A’s Discussed Matt Olson Prior To Lockout
(4 - 5:38pm, Jan 25)
Last: Smitty*

Hall of Merit2023 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(144 - 4:35pm, Jan 25)
Last: kcgard2

NewsblogOT - NHL Thread
(83 - 4:29pm, Jan 25)
Last: The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV)

NewsblogMLBPA drops age-based free agency proposal as negotiations on new labor deal continue: Source
(17 - 4:25pm, Jan 25)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogRobot umpires at home plate moving up to Triple-A for 2022
(49 - 4:25pm, Jan 25)
Last: SoSH U at work

NewsblogBest baseball movies based on a true story
(8 - 3:23pm, Jan 25)
Last: sunday silence (again)

NewsblogFrontier League adds sudden-death tiebreaker to extra-innings games in 2022
(18 - 2:28pm, Jan 25)
Last: Karl from NY

Hall of MeritSam Jethroe
(19 - 2:20pm, Jan 25)
Last: DL from MN

NewsblogTexas starts No. 1, SEC dominates top 10 in preseason college baseball rankings
(2 - 1:30pm, Jan 25)
Last: Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network)

NewsblogOT - 2021 NFL thread
(238 - 6:32pm, Jan 24)
Last: Tom Nawrocki

NewsblogRosenthal: The pressure is mounting — MLB cannot afford to lose games this season
(61 - 4:55pm, Jan 24)
Last: Jack Sommers

Page rendered in 0.4404 seconds
47 querie(s) executed